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The word “HAS”

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by RichardBurger, Oct 21, 2011.

  1. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    The word “HAS” (meaning it HAS already been accomplished)

    2 Corinthians 5:1-8
    5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
    3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
    4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
    5 Now He who HAS prepared us for this very thing is God, who also HAS given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
    7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
    8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
    NKJV

    Galatians 3:21-22
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
    22 But the Scripture HAS confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    NKJV

    Galatians 4:4-7
    4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
    5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
    6 And because you are sons, God HAS sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
    7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
    NKJV

    Galatians 5:1-4
    5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ HAS made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
    2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
    3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    NKJV

     
     
    Ephesians 1:3-7
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who HAS blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
    NKJV

    Colossians 1:12-14
    12 giving thanks to the Father who HAS qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
    13 He HAS delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
    14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
    NKJV

    Colossians 2:13-14
    13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He HAS made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
    14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He HAS taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
    NKJV

    According to the scriptures those who place all their belief, faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross have been saved. -- (have been = has = accomplished)

    There is no such thing as progressive salvation.
     
  2. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Yes, for those who have experienced this, He HAS prepared us, He HAS given us His Spirit, He HAS freed us, now it is up to us to run the race! If indeed all those things have happened and we have no part to play, they why do we still sin? Why is the fight not over for us to conquer our souls, the promised land? Because God HAS done his part, and now calls on us to do ours. IF YOU persevere to the end, you shall be saved

    Also, note that Paul was NOT talking to YOU, but to the Ephesians, Galatians, Corinthians, Colossians, who were in Christ. Now if you are in Christ, then it does apply to you. But does the mere fact of reading 'You are seated in heavenly places mean we are? No, of course not. It is real of those to whom Paul spoke, and to all who really walk in this.

    In the same way continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

    God HAS rescued us from our own situation, now we must continue unto the saving of the soul.
     
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  3. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Very vague Prentis. Tell us how you are working out your salvation? Is it by the working of the flesh or by working to keep your belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross when all around you you have the self-righteous saying you must earn your righteousness by how you live? In other words do you accept the righteousness that God freely applies (gives, accounts) to the child of God or do you discount it as not enough and wish to establish your own. -- It makes a big difference.

    So, to you, we must continue the work of salvation. That means you do not have faith that God's work on the cross was enough.

    IMHO the scripture is talking about our continued faith in God's work on the cross.

    The subject of this thread is the word """HAS""" meaning it has already been accomplished. But you insist that it has not been accomplished but must be accomplished by man.
     
  4. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    If it was a done deal, and all we had to do was just trust in the work of the cross, Paul would of said 'keep trusting Christ for your salvation with joy and a smile'. Rather the cross must do it's work in us, to crucify the flesh.

    We work out our salvation by walking by faith, seeking God, and surrendering everything to him. When challenges come our way, we respond with faith, and rejoice in God, knowing he works all things for the best of those who love him. We work out our salvation by obedience, so that as it says of Christ we might be 'perfected through obedience'. Ultimately, we seek to arrive at the place of perfect unity with God, where as Christ, we do only what we see the Father doing.

    In doing these things, we go from faith to faith, and from glory to glory, being transformed into the image of our Lord. In this we grow like him, and experience him, and know him. It is only vague to the degree that drawing near and experiencing him now is vague to us! :)
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    You talked all around my question and gave no answer. Tell us how you are working out your salvation?

    1 John 5:4-5
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
    5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
    NKJV


    I have been saying that it is our believing, having faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross has made us overcome the world and the scripture says the same thing but you will not listen.

    But you don't believe this since you say it is our works that are required to overcome the world.
     
  6. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Again, the issue is what kind of faith we are talking about.

    True faith moves mountains. But you say our faith is only able to 'hide sins', not to change us. True faith brings us in to fellowship, and fellowship changes us, if only we let it, and humbly seek to be conformed to the example given us.

    We work out our salvation by drawing near to God. It cannot be defined by external means. You continue asking a response of what it looks like in 'sight' when the answer is about faith. Richard, our faith is to draw us into communion and unity, and life, not doctrinal stances of positioning. We are to truly be where he is.

    Do you believe it's possible, Richard, that where he is, we can be also?
     
  7. gregg

    gregg New Member

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    there is nothing i can do to make salvation any greater than what Jesus obtained. but if i am given a talent i must work to increase that talent or the results are awful. :D
     
  8. Shirley

    Shirley New Member

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    Oh dear soji, I hear you brother! I did not even know what a lazy and bad servant I was. I did not even know I was being disciplined by God. If I just would have been obedient to his call. He has had to bring me to my knees. Thank God for his mercy! I do not want to be guilty of burying my talents.

    Thank-you Richard for helping to increase my faith.
     
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  9. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Actually, according to Scripture, there is. The problem here is that you misunderstand what that means. As a matter of fact, there is a past, present, and future aspect to salvation. Progressive salvation, as some call it, is simply the believers walk of faith between conversion and death. Future salvation refers to the believer's exemption from the "wrath to come" on the day of judgement.

    Past:
    “For in this hope we were saved” (Rom. 8:24)
    “By grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:5, 8)
    “By his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5).

    Present:
    "but to us who are being saved" (1 Cor. 1:18)
    “Through which [gospel] you are being saved” (I Cor. 15:2)
    “Those who are being saved” (II Cor. 2:15).

    Future:
    “How much more shall we be saved?” (Rom. 5:9)
    “now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (Rom. 5:10)
     
  10. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    Past,present, future salvation has it's roots in the Grace of God.
    I don't care how much obedience or even faith, Prentis, you say is required, the fact is that even those things are rooted in God's grace on account of Christ. In short we love Him (the ultimate in obedience) because He first loved us. To think otherwise is to fall into a synergistic error of semi-Arminianism / Arminianism or even worse Pelagianism.

    Martin Luther (not King) said it nicely ...
    “I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel, enlightened me by his gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith; in like manner as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and preserves it in union with Jesus Christ in the true faith; in which Christian Church He daily forgives abundantly all my sins, and the sins of all believers, and will raise up me and all the dead at the last day, and will grant everlasting life to me and to all who believe in Christ. This is most certainly true.”

    and the Apostle Paul...
    For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    (Gal 2:19-3:3)

    Richard is right, notice how the cross is so interwoven in our daily walk from Paul's quote.
     
  11. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Good post, Nomad. Christ is the door, but he is also the narrow way. We must enter the door, and walk the narrow way, to it's end!
     
  12. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    The cross is there indeed, for us to carry. Christ commands us to carry our cross daily.

    Having begun in the Spirit, we must be perfected in the Spirit, by obedience to it. Paul is against striving by fleshly means, not against striving at all, otherwise he would say 'are you so foolish, having begun you would now continue?' and he would not say he runs to win the prize Christ.

    Basically what you teach is that we have won and attained Christ without it actually being a reality. What is being taught here is an imaginary overcome. It's notihng short of gnosticism, it says 'believe you are saved, and you are!'

    But God says 'What did you do with the talent (grace) I gave you?'

    Grace is the power of God that works through us, both to will and to do his good pleasure. As Paul said, it labored in him. But it does so through faith, as it says 'by grace through faith'. That is not a magic formula to an assurance of salvation, but it describes the means by which we please God! It is his grace, of which we are made partakers by our faith, faithfulness, and fidelity (all definitions of 'pisits', faith).
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I believe in the past I have written here about our part in salvation. As this discussion has developed cleary the conclusion of this matter that the provision of Christ was as Prentis states "to work out our salvation with trembling and fear" Phil 2:12,13

    Rev 2:7 "To him that overcometh" The Word of Truth has been given for us to build faith and conquer the carnal desires within. The Word of Faith has already overcome the world by Jesus Christ (1 John 5:4) and IF we follow Jesus example we too can gain the victory over the forces of darkness that can destroy the spiritual man. Rev 2:7 is an exhortation to triumph over personal sins; over the world and its temptations; over prevailing error; over the ills and trials of life which can crush one. The life in Christ is a constant warfare (See Acts 14:22), in which faith is needed for the victory (1 John 5:4).

    Why would one fail where Christ triumphed?

    For one reason alone, a lack of "first love", and regardless on how persistant you are in doctrinal purity, and its increasing, exhausting labour, victory would be to those only who re-discovered their first love for Christ, and manifested it in action.

    The Cross is powerless without the response of first love!

    Insight
     
  14. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Hi Prentis,

    Could you clarify your position? I know that sometimes things get lost in the mix of a discussion such as this. Are you saying that good works and obedience are the fruit of salvation or do you believe that they are the way in which one becomes saved and remains so? In other words, does salvation cause good works and obedience or do good works and obedience cause salvation?
     
  15. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Colossians 1:12-14
    12 giving thanks to the Father who HAS qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
    13 He HAS delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
    14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
    NKJV

    Colossians 2:13-14
    13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He HAS made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
    14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He HAS taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
    NKJV

    According to the scriptures those who place all their belief, faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross have been saved. -- (have been = has = accomplished)

    There is no such thing as progressive salvation and those that teach it are lost because they do not believe Jesus, His work on the cross saves all that believe it does.
     
  16. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    So you're simply going to ignore the Scripture I presented that clearly speaks of the present progressive and future aspects of salvation? Shall I re-post them or do they just not matter to you one way or the other?
     
  17. Thankful 1

    Thankful 1 New Member

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    It is a shame that people have taken a few misunderstood verses of Paul’s letters and made a theology out of them. Those people have to disregard so much of the rest of the written Word of God.

    Peter talked about people like that.

    (2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.”

    One of the scriptures verses that people that made a theology out of a few of Paul’s writings is as follows.

    (John 5:21-31) “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life,[sup] [/sup]so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.[sup] [/sup]Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment[sup]*[/sup] to his Son,so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.[sup]q[/sup] And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
     
  18. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    I say neither nor. Let me explain! :)

    I do not believe we 'are saved' as a permanent status. Salvation is progressive, that is an aspect. Also, salvation is Christ, that is his name!

    It starts by reconciliation, then we must go on to sanctification, and then glorification.

    We are saved from Egypt, we must pass the tests of the wilderness and conquer the promised land, and then be faithful to the end. My understanding is that we are not supposed to try and and judge whether or not we are saved, who on earth are we to lift ourselves up as judges? If we are walking with Christ and as Christ, we know that we are walking in salvation, yes.

    But that says nothing about tomorrow. We can never take an experience, current or past, and say 'it's over'. We must run the race to the end. We are first saved from darkness, reconciled to God. But that is like being put into the race, we haven't won yet.

    We also can't look at failure and say 'it's over' unless the Lord does so. We must cry out to him, and seek to be where he is!

    Once again, this is too easy... He has qualified us, yes, he has delivered us from the power of darkness, yes, he has made us alive with him, yes, and has wiped out the accusations against us, yes...

    But to what purpose? He can do that for anyone that will only repent and believe once! Does he just do it to save us? Is God so desperate he had to find a way to justify us to some law ABOVE him?

    God has called us that we might be a nation that bears fruit. It is said of Israel that their blessing will be given to another because... They did not bear the fruit that should of come with what God gave them! In the same way, we have received grace. That we might continue in sin? Of course not.

    That we might be made as he is and walk in his power. We are called to overcome.
     
  19. gregg

    gregg New Member

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    when a puppy is born it is a puppy.but unless that puppy eats and grows it will never reach its exspectation. :huh: puppys are fun to play with,but you can never use them for hunting, protection, etc. :D when you leave the house the puppy stays behind. kinda like the virgins :eek:
     
  20. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    I'm afraid that you missed the point of my question. I'll try again. Are you saved by good works or are you saved unto good works? Are good works the fruit or the root of salvation. It's one or the other. It's not both. One has the explicit backing of Scripture. The other does not. Which is it?
     
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