The word “HAS”

[Prentis]

If by saved you mean reconciliated, then it is for good works.

[sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If by saved you mean glorified, then it is because of faithfulness to the end.

Revelation 2:26
And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

 

[Nomad]

Prentis,

Where exactly does Scripture teach that any aspect of redemption, including glorification, is gained or kept by works and obedience? I think you misunderstand something here. When it comes to salvation there are two types of statements made in Scripture. The first prescribes how one is saved and the other describes the character of one that is already saved. Ephesians 2:8-10 is the former, while Revelation 2:26 is the latter. If it is insisted that this isn't the case, then we're left with a faith + works salvation or at the very least a system that says we're saved by grace through faith, but we stay saved by works. Scripture speaks of no such thing.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[RichardBurger]

So you're simply going to ignore the Scripture I presented that clearly speaks of the present progressive and future aspects of salvation? Shall I re-post them or do they just not matter to you one way or the other?

Well you are simply ignoring the scriptures I gave in the OP, so what is your problem?

Scripture does not contradict scripture. However what we see the meaning to be is sometimes based on what we want them to say.

According to the scriptures I gave in the OP (which you obviously do not believe) our salvation HAS been accomplished in the work of Jesus on the cross. Each of the children of God HAVE BEEN made children of God because of their faith (belief, trust, confidence) in Jesus' shed blood to cover their sins. It is a done deal and a free gift.

I do not believe that God starts a process that saves, and then expects sinful man living in a sinful body to complete it in order to be saved.

The problem, as I see it, is that most want to blend man's works into the gospel of the grace of God. God's works were just not enough.

If you want to discuss works outside of salvation then go to it but when you try, in any way, to make our works a part of salvation you are blending works with grace and they do not mix.

 

[Nomad]

Well you are simply ignoring the scriptures I gave in the OP, so what is your problem?

How did I ignore them? I posted Scripture in my first response to your OP that clearly says we have been saved right along side Scripture that says we are being saved and we will be saved. I don't ignore them, I accept them. It's what Scripture plainly says. What would you like to do with those Scriptures that speak of present and future salvation Richard? You don't get to ignore them simply because you don't like them or they don't fit your presuppositions.

I do not believe that God starts a process that saves, and then expects sinful man living in a sinful body to complete it in order to be saved.

I don't believe that either. Where have I taken this position? Show me.

The problem, as I see it, is that most want to blend man's works into the gospel of the grace of God. God's works were just not enough.

Where have I articulated such a belief? Show me.

 

[Prentis]

Prentis,

Where exactly does Scripture teach that any aspect of redemption, including glorification, is gained or kept by works and obedience? I think you misunderstand something here. When it comes to salvation there are two types of statements made in Scripture. The first prescribes how one is saved and the other describes the character of one that is already saved. Ephesians 2:8-10 is the former, while Revelation 2:26 is the latter. If it is insisted that this isn't the case, then we're left with a faith + works salvation or at the very least a system that says we're saved by grace through faith, but we stay saved by works. Scripture speaks of no such thing.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Nomad, the whole idea that faith is against obedience is an error. Faith requires obedience, rather. If we truly believe him and trust him, why would we not obey?

[sup]5[/sup] But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, [sup]6[/sup] to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, [sup]7[/sup] to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. [sup]8[/sup] For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [sup]9[/sup] For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
[sup]10[/sup] Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; [sup]11[/sup] for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is always an amazing thing to me when obedience is equaled with striving in the flesh! Is it carnal to obey out of faith through the grace by which we stand?

 

[Nomad]

If we truly believe him and trust him, why would we not obey?

Once again, is that obedience the fruit or the root of salvation? Do your good works and obedience come along side of grace and faith to help merit salvation as Rome teaches?

 

[Prentis]

Once again, is that obedience the fruit or the root of salvation? Do your good works and obedience come along side of grace and faith to help merit salvation as Rome teaches?

Is your faith any good without works, as Baptist's teach?

You see, it's a too way street.

And I'm not Roman Catholic! :lol:

I hope you take this all lightly, I am not here to take shots, but to make a point.

Does it not say we will be judged by our works? We are reconciled to God apart of works. You yourself posted the progressiveness of salvation. The first verses go with this... The reconciliation. But this very reconciliation is FOR good works, and that we would become like Jesus in character and spirit. We must then be faithful to the end.

We are saved by grace through faith. That is, we are saved by the power of God which labors in us, through our faith, faithfulness, and fidelity (pistis, the greek word translated faith, also means faithfulness). God is not here to give us a free pass, he is sovereign and if he wanted to do that, he would of done it, no problem! But he wants to conform us to him, so we could be one, thus he makes his grace (power) to work in us both to will and to do what pleases him. By being faithful and abiding, we allow this grace to carry it's work to it's end.

 

[Nomad]

You yourself posted the progressiveness of salvation.

Yes, but neither I nor the Bible mean what you mean by that. Observe.

"but to us who are being saved" (1 Cor. 1:18)
“Through which [gospel] you are being saved” (I Cor. 15:2)
“Those who are being saved” (II Cor. 2:15).

The verb "saved" in all three verses is in the passive voice. Verbs in the passive voice indicate that the subject of the verb receives the action of the verb. In other words, something is being done to you, not by you. The subject of the verb doesn't "do," he "receives." There's nothing in any of those verses that supports the notion that we contribute to our salvation. Rather, those verses militate quite hard against it. The Biblical concept is simply that salvation has a beginning, a walk of perseverance in faith through this life, and the end goal of glorification and consummation. Once again:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[Prentis]

[sup]5[/sup] But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, [sup]6[/sup] to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, [sup]7[/sup] to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. [sup]8[/sup] For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [sup]9[/sup] For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. [sup]10[/sup] Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And we have nothing to do with it???

 

[Nomad]

And we have nothing to do with it???

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

No, we have nothing to do with it. Salvation is all of God from A to Z. We are recipients of grace without merit. Even the faith with which you believe unto salvation is granted by God.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake. . .

 

[Prentis]

Yes, we receive the grace without merit, as a servant receives a talent simply because he is a servant, all he had to do is show up and submit as a servant!

But we would be fools to think that we have no part with doing right with that talent!

[sup]5[/sup] But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, [sup]6[/sup] to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, [sup]7[/sup] to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. [sup]8[/sup] For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [sup]9[/sup] For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. [sup]10[/sup] Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
Did you read this passage?

 

[Nomad]

Did you read this passage?

Did you read this one?

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

. . .or this one?

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake. . .

Any way you slice it, it's all of God's grace, from justification to glorification.

 

[Prentis]

Yes, and I do agree that it is the grace of God that works in us.

But do you claim we don't have to cooperate? We have no choice? Abiding is not something we do, it just 'happens'?

All the verses that tell us to continue, to persevere, it's just nice words to make it seem valiant?

It has nothing to do with whether we add to our faith virtue, and all that we are commanded to add?

 

[Nomad]

But do you claim we don't have to cooperate?

Only in as far as God has enabled us. Hence, the Scripture I provided.

We have no choice?

Nope.

Abiding is not something we do, it just 'happens'?

Yep, by the power of God.

All the verses that tell us to continue, to persevere, it's just nice words to make it seem valiant?

It has nothing to do with whether we add to our faith virtue, and all that we are commanded to add?

Once again, we're back to that which prescribes versus that which describes.

 

[Prentis]

Once again we're back to that which describes versus that which prescribes.

So... Are you saying that those who are cut off were never grafted in to start with?

 

[Nomad]

So... Are you saying that those who are cut off were never grafted in to start with?

Yep.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

 

[Prentis]

[sup]20[/sup] Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [sup]21[/sup] For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. [sup]22[/sup] Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[sup][f][/sup] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

One standing by faith may indeed be cut off, and one can indeed fall from where he is.

As Paul says, [sup]27[/sup] But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified

We have a race to run, and we can be disqualified. It is also said that brother may fall under the condemnation of the devil!

 

[Nomad]

Once again, we're back to that which describes versus that which prescribes.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

 

[Prentis]

To know is to be intimate with, Christ simply states he had no intimacy with them.

The church of Laodicea, is it a church? Jesus is on the outside!

[sup]19[/sup] Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, [sup]20[/sup] let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

The idea that because he didn't persevere to the end he was never in to start with is equal to saying that because a man is not in a bus, he never was.

 

[Nomad]

The idea that because he didn't persevere to the end he was never in to start with is equal to saying that because a man is not in a bus, he never was.

So you're accusing God's word of being illogical? Interesting. Here it is again. Read carefully. The words are plain enough:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'