The Word of God
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jacobtaylor
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- Feb 11, 2011
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Just where do you presume Im angry. Is disagreement with you always have to perceived as angry. It seems to be a common theme for you resistance to aspen or aspens perception equals hatred. You are the one using pointed language from your fist post in this thread.
You are quite the manipulator. Is anyone accusing you of being hateful by resiting my position or anyone else that disagrees with you? What happened to your not acting in love tactic? I don't see you responding to disagreement with you in a loving attitude. Quite the opposite your the one that has a problem with opposition to your position. That includes your perception of God as well. So I guess Im in good company with God. He seems to be on your list of people in need of anger management as well. In that Im rather happy you find us both offensive. It indicates to me your the one with a problem.
.
And Robbie himself injects his beach bum accent into his post. Its to bad he has no sense of humor about his regarding others as dude. Its rather clear he wants to be identified by it.
EXACTLY! That is what aspen does.
Robbie,
How could Solomon of spoken with such "despair," as you say, if he didn't have the understanding from God to know of the things he wrote? Maybe Solomon could speak of such despair of man and know all kinds of man's thoughts---because GOD GAVE SOLOMON THE UNDERSTANDING?!
That's what the Bible says, that God gave Solomon understanding and wisdom. And, God must of wanted Solomon to write down his studying and UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM, which was GIVEN FROM GOD---because it IS in the BIBLE. The BIBLE---THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.
You say you are glad it is in the Bible....so thank God for Solomon's wisdom and understanding, and for God directing all of it, and for having it in the Bible.
Robbie, let's switch gears for a moment.
What are some verses that don't equate with Jesus's teachings in the NT?
What are some verses that don't equate with Jesus's teachings in the NT?
Robbie
New Member
Hey Hammerstone... I'm totally open to reason about my beliefs...
In Ecclesiastes I find a lot of false ideas... but I don't see the book is false because I don't look at Solomon as my teacher... or discount how Solomon was feeling... I understand why he was feeling that way... and I think the book is perfect when you read it as it is... a book written by a man that had everything including wisdom beyond measure but was still filled with dispair and hopelessness.... but it doesn't change the fact He was wrong...
Jesus was never wrong... Jesus is God's Word... Solomon was just a man... Solomon says that the righteous and the wicked share a common destiny... this is obviously false according to Jesus don't you think?
I figure we can go through one at a time...
In Ecclesiastes I find a lot of false ideas... but I don't see the book is false because I don't look at Solomon as my teacher... or discount how Solomon was feeling... I understand why he was feeling that way... and I think the book is perfect when you read it as it is... a book written by a man that had everything including wisdom beyond measure but was still filled with dispair and hopelessness.... but it doesn't change the fact He was wrong...
Jesus was never wrong... Jesus is God's Word... Solomon was just a man... Solomon says that the righteous and the wicked share a common destiny... this is obviously false according to Jesus don't you think?
I figure we can go through one at a time...
I assume you're referring to Ecclesiastes 9:2 - well the entire chapter really.
Ecclesiastes happens to be one of my favorite books in the Bible. I very much enjoy the wisdom literature because there is some truly profound stuff there.
[bible=Ecclesiastes 9:1-5 HCSB]
Indeed, I took all this to heart and explained it all: the righteous, the wise, and their works are in God's hands. People don't know whether [to expect] love or hate. Everything lies ahead of them. Everything is the same for everyone: there is one fate for the righteous and the wicked, for the good and the bad, for the clean and the unclean, for the one who sacrifices and the one who does not sacrifice. As it is for the good, so it is for the sinner, as for the one who takes an oath, so for the one who fears an oath. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: there is one fate for everyone. In addition, the hearts of people are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live —after that they go to the dead. But there is hope for whoever is joined with all the living, since a live dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. There is no longer a reward for them because the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their envy have already disappeared, and there is no longer a portion for them in all that is done under the sun.
[/bible]
You have to think of it this way. Christians and Non-Christian's have one fate in common. We die.
This is an amazing parallel - yes parallel and not tangential - to exactly what Christ preached. The crux of this passage comes not around the beginning, but the statement about a live dog being better than a dead lion. Dogs were reviled in this culture. They weren't pets, they were nasty garbage disposals at best. Lions, on the other hand, are seen as regal creatures throughout history (think Egypt, Babylon, Lion of Judah, etc.); they are always creatures of royalty, power, and great strength. Yet a dead lion is nothing more than a dead lion. A live dog is alive.
All fall short (Romans 3:23); we are all trapped in sin by nature. We're just as subject to the evils of this world as the unsaved and we're going to die the same physical death right alongside them.
Where the analogy comes into play on a deeper level is that we're better a dog in God's living kingdom than a dead lion in the world. We can all think of "great" (or infamous) leaders that have done amazing things of the world in business, politics, culture, religion, war, etc. However, it all passes. Think about the story of the woman that poured the perfume on Christ and how we have her emotions there. Her testimony lives on. She is alive in more ways than one, the cruel yet powerful dictator is dead and his kingdom long ago broken.
I'm very much reminded of a favorite poem of mine:
This was about a statue of Ramses the Great. It lies broken, and this person walks away not with a vision of the greatness of the king, but thinking about the sculptor who made the image. He was the creator of the image and influenced this powerful leader, but essentially both are lost; those passions Solomon spoke about are long gone.
To me the above just bristles with anticipation of Christ who provides the way to fix our state. Grace.
Ecclesiastes happens to be one of my favorite books in the Bible. I very much enjoy the wisdom literature because there is some truly profound stuff there.
[bible=Ecclesiastes 9:1-5 HCSB]
Indeed, I took all this to heart and explained it all: the righteous, the wise, and their works are in God's hands. People don't know whether [to expect] love or hate. Everything lies ahead of them. Everything is the same for everyone: there is one fate for the righteous and the wicked, for the good and the bad, for the clean and the unclean, for the one who sacrifices and the one who does not sacrifice. As it is for the good, so it is for the sinner, as for the one who takes an oath, so for the one who fears an oath. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: there is one fate for everyone. In addition, the hearts of people are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live —after that they go to the dead. But there is hope for whoever is joined with all the living, since a live dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. There is no longer a reward for them because the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their envy have already disappeared, and there is no longer a portion for them in all that is done under the sun.
[/bible]
You have to think of it this way. Christians and Non-Christian's have one fate in common. We die.
This is an amazing parallel - yes parallel and not tangential - to exactly what Christ preached. The crux of this passage comes not around the beginning, but the statement about a live dog being better than a dead lion. Dogs were reviled in this culture. They weren't pets, they were nasty garbage disposals at best. Lions, on the other hand, are seen as regal creatures throughout history (think Egypt, Babylon, Lion of Judah, etc.); they are always creatures of royalty, power, and great strength. Yet a dead lion is nothing more than a dead lion. A live dog is alive.
All fall short (Romans 3:23); we are all trapped in sin by nature. We're just as subject to the evils of this world as the unsaved and we're going to die the same physical death right alongside them.
Where the analogy comes into play on a deeper level is that we're better a dog in God's living kingdom than a dead lion in the world. We can all think of "great" (or infamous) leaders that have done amazing things of the world in business, politics, culture, religion, war, etc. However, it all passes. Think about the story of the woman that poured the perfume on Christ and how we have her emotions there. Her testimony lives on. She is alive in more ways than one, the cruel yet powerful dictator is dead and his kingdom long ago broken.
I'm very much reminded of a favorite poem of mine:
This was about a statue of Ramses the Great. It lies broken, and this person walks away not with a vision of the greatness of the king, but thinking about the sculptor who made the image. He was the creator of the image and influenced this powerful leader, but essentially both are lost; those passions Solomon spoke about are long gone.
To me the above just bristles with anticipation of Christ who provides the way to fix our state. Grace.
Robbie
New Member
See... I disagree with that perception because Jesus says that if we live and believe in Him we never die... I understand Solomon's view since He had a veiled revelation of God and had no understanding of the afterlife or the power of Christ... but it doesn't change that I see it as Solomon is mistaken... we can go back and forth on that forever so I'd rather just accept your beliefs and you can accept mine and we can move onto the next one...
So the next one is that those who die will never again have a part in anything that happens under the sun... this is also false...
Jesus raised people from the dead and they had a part underneath the sun again...
Jesus had a part under the sun again...
Then again in Mathew it says that, "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
So once again I see Solomon as wrong... but I don't have a problem with Ecclesiastes... because Solomon was just a man with a veiled revelation...
The veil was removed in Christ... Christ is God's Word..
Christ knew that He would be under the sun again... He knew that if they destroyed the temple in three days it would be rebuilt... He knew that Lazarus would again be under the sun...
PS: Pretty poem = )
So the next one is that those who die will never again have a part in anything that happens under the sun... this is also false...
Jesus raised people from the dead and they had a part underneath the sun again...
Jesus had a part under the sun again...
Then again in Mathew it says that, "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
So once again I see Solomon as wrong... but I don't have a problem with Ecclesiastes... because Solomon was just a man with a veiled revelation...
The veil was removed in Christ... Christ is God's Word..
Christ knew that He would be under the sun again... He knew that if they destroyed the temple in three days it would be rebuilt... He knew that Lazarus would again be under the sun...
PS: Pretty poem = )
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You know, I think of Ecclesiastes as an honest book - it is a journal of despair. It reminds me of some of the sad Psalms. There is nothing wrong with crying out to God. It is sort of like being mad at God or doubting Him. If we didn't do these things from time to time, I think we would not be honest with ourselves or God. I think God not only can take it, He encourages our honesty and in return gives us hope and courage to carry on.
St, Terese of Lisieux is considered a saint in the Catholic Church and she doubted God right up to the end of her short life. She has given hope to millions of faithful Christians because of her struggles - so has Mother Teresa. Doubt is part of the human condition - Christ is a witness to our doubts and fears and infuses us with His Grace, hope, faith, and love - one day we will be kneeling before Him, fully healed!
Amen
St, Terese of Lisieux is considered a saint in the Catholic Church and she doubted God right up to the end of her short life. She has given hope to millions of faithful Christians because of her struggles - so has Mother Teresa. Doubt is part of the human condition - Christ is a witness to our doubts and fears and infuses us with His Grace, hope, faith, and love - one day we will be kneeling before Him, fully healed!
Amen
Not trying to do this just to get the last word in, but I have to add that we die physically. It's stated in the NT that it is appointed for all men (people) to die once.
Ah, but the reply to your thought is contained within your thought. We don't have a part underneath the sun again apart from Jesus.
Go back to the first example of Solomon's wisdom with the two mothers. What Solomon says - in his God-given wisdom - always goes deeper than the obvious surface thought. When Solomon uses the hyperbole of splitting the child in two - he knew the mother would never see her child killed even if it was in someone's hand. Someone blinded by loss would want that, though.
Robbie
New Member
A lot of people say that everybody dies once and only once... so does that mean Lazarus never died again? what about all the saints who experienced the resurrection? or the other people that had already died once and were resurrected by Jesus or the disciples?
And what about Enoch? Paul says He never experienced death...
Also Paul says death is an enemy of God that will be defeated...
But that's a whole other topic... if you want to discuss it start a topic... I find that topic interesting... I personally don't believe death is God's friend... I believe it's His enemy and that He's waiting for it to be put under His feet... His feet being the lowest person in Christ...
As far as the other stuff... the bottom line is Solomon was wrong... there were people that died that did once again have a part under the sun... Solomon said what he said and He was wrong... Jesus said what He said and He was right... even though it disagreed with Solomon's perception...
Going back to the beginning of ecclesiastes Solomon says, "What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind!" this is also false... Jesus said His burden was light... but once again Solomon only had a veiled revelation... Christ is a revelation where the veil is removed... we can now clearly see...
Also in the same part Solomon said, "What is crooked cannot be straightened" which is in direct contradiction to what was quoted in Luke in reference to John the Baptist , "The crooked places shall be made straight, And the rough ways smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."
And what about Enoch? Paul says He never experienced death...
Also Paul says death is an enemy of God that will be defeated...
But that's a whole other topic... if you want to discuss it start a topic... I find that topic interesting... I personally don't believe death is God's friend... I believe it's His enemy and that He's waiting for it to be put under His feet... His feet being the lowest person in Christ...
As far as the other stuff... the bottom line is Solomon was wrong... there were people that died that did once again have a part under the sun... Solomon said what he said and He was wrong... Jesus said what He said and He was right... even though it disagreed with Solomon's perception...
Going back to the beginning of ecclesiastes Solomon says, "What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind!" this is also false... Jesus said His burden was light... but once again Solomon only had a veiled revelation... Christ is a revelation where the veil is removed... we can now clearly see...
Also in the same part Solomon said, "What is crooked cannot be straightened" which is in direct contradiction to what was quoted in Luke in reference to John the Baptist , "The crooked places shall be made straight, And the rough ways smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
One last thought; Solomon speaks the truth in this book. He paints a crystal clear picture of life without God. In fact, it could be called an illustration of Hell - minus death as a relief.
Robbie
New Member
Well, the point here is that God can bend that as He chooses. We have very few exceptions to the rule: Elijah, Enoch, Lazarus (who was brought back), and Christ himself. The others were examples for the ultimate (Christ). However, Christians die. I've known a lot of them, they've passed on. That's a reality of life for Christian and NonChristian.
Indeed it is another discussion; if you want to kick it off, let's go.
I think we've seen the instances where they do agree. It just involves considering all Scripture and understanding. David, Solomon and the rest knew of some things that would happen. However, many of them spoke prophecy that they'd never physically see come to pass. That's common and a hallmark of God's hands. Go all the way back to Enoch who espoused prophecy about the return of Christ.
Actually, I totally disagree with this statement. Prophets are martyr'ed - look at the disciples' fate. Let's look at exactly what Christ said about burdens...
[bible=Matthew 11:28-30]
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."[/bible]
Christ takes our burdens on and helps us in them, but that doesn't translate into making what Solomon said come into conflict.
Also in the same part Solomon said, "What is crooked cannot be straightened" which is in direct contradiction to what was quoted in Luke in reference to John the Baptist , "The crooked places shall be made straight, And the rough ways smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."
Ah, but here is where I'm going to use your own argument against you. Those are not the words of Christ - those are the words of John the Baptist who was quoting Isaiah. Neither are God, both are men.
I'm really not doing that to be mean, but this is where I dislike the picking a choosing reference. Certainly the words of Satan and Job's own accusers are found within Scripture, but at the same time it's documented that those are not the words we are to live by. They're present so we can see the MO of the enemy.
Actually our Savior had this to say about crooked things:
[bible=Matthew 7:17-19]
So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[/bible]
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I think the burden Christ offers is a lighter than the burden the world offers. We are actually working harder dealing with existential despair (life without justification and sanctification - a life described by Solomon) than we are submitting to Christ and learning to love. His version offers hope, the world's version offers us emptiness and despair. The same is true with addiction - all addictions are harder to maintain than the effort it takes to give up the addiction.
Well of course Christ lightens up life - but my point is that the life of a Christianity is not rosy. Either Christ lied (which He did not, of course), or there is more to what's being said. The Bible speaks volume, a true, hardcore prophet or man of God generally winds up dead for his beliefs - and typically its not an easy death. That's not to say us folks with such good lives are necessarily less of a Christian or whatever, but look at Paul. He essentially went persecuted and conflicted all of his life. Before he simply killed Christians. Eternally yes, he made it through Christ making his way for him, but physically he was afflicted heavily. Paul writes extensively about being at a breaking point far beyond any of our own, but clearly states God got him through.
The burden of the world is very heavy, and we would not make it without Christ.
The burden of the world is very heavy, and we would not make it without Christ.
Robbie
New Member
I think the reason we have different views hammer is because I start from the foundation that Jesus is the Word of God and you come com the foundation that a book is the Word of God....
So here it is simple...
Solomon said people who died would never again have a part under the sun and thanks to Jesus we see he was wrong...
Solomon said that the things crooked wouldn't be made straight and thanks to Jesus we see he was wrong...
Solomon said that the burden GOD lays on man is heavy yet coming to Jesus is coming to God and He said His burden is light so once again thanks to Jesus we see Solomon was wrong.
So here it is simple...
Solomon said people who died would never again have a part under the sun and thanks to Jesus we see he was wrong...
Solomon said that the things crooked wouldn't be made straight and thanks to Jesus we see he was wrong...
Solomon said that the burden GOD lays on man is heavy yet coming to Jesus is coming to God and He said His burden is light so once again thanks to Jesus we see Solomon was wrong.
Robbie
New Member
Because I come from the foundation of Jesus being the Word I have no problem with Solomon being wrong because I understand that before Christ people saw God through a veil... the bible itself says that.
The testimony to Jesus also says that He stood on a mountain with Moses and Elijah and when the disciple wanted to build a tabernacle for all three God spoke and said "This is my beloved Son... hear Him" God didn't say, "All of these are me speaking... listen to all of them and cross reference them"
After God spoke there was no one standing there but Jesus...
I also know that the writings compiled testify that Jesus is God's Word manifested in the flesh... what I don’t see anywhere is those writings is it saying that one day they'd all be compiled into a book and we were supposed to give that book the name that belongs to Jesus...
The testimony to Jesus also says that He stood on a mountain with Moses and Elijah and when the disciple wanted to build a tabernacle for all three God spoke and said "This is my beloved Son... hear Him" God didn't say, "All of these are me speaking... listen to all of them and cross reference them"
After God spoke there was no one standing there but Jesus...
I also know that the writings compiled testify that Jesus is God's Word manifested in the flesh... what I don’t see anywhere is those writings is it saying that one day they'd all be compiled into a book and we were supposed to give that book the name that belongs to Jesus...
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