What is Works Theology (gospel)?Does this theology really exist or am I making it up?IMHO yes it really does exist. If you ask most people in the Christian religion why they think they are going to heaven the first things out of their mouth will be about what they do, or have done. --- In other words it will be about themselves and their works. -- Very few will “”first”” say it is because Jesus’ work on the cross paid for their sins. If they mention the cross it will have to be coerced. -- Why do they do that? IMHO it is because they feel their works are what really matters. Perhaps that is because that is what they have been taught in a “works theology.”The most discussed idea on forums is works. To believe works follow faith is find, but to constantly harp on it is to judge other Christians and to make “”works the center of Christianity.”” This is a form of boasting and trying to elevate some people as being closer to God than others. It makes Christianity a class system. IMHO this is what causes the world to turn against Christianity. The world see Christianity as a works based religion just like all the other works based religions and not as a religion in which God has reconciled sinners to God.Since true faith WILL produce good works why are so many constantly harping that a person must have good works? If they are a Christian won’t they have good works? Do they need others to kick them into doing good works? A true child of God does not do good works to be seen by men. They do not do them to prove they have faith. God knows whether they have faith or not. No one needs to prove their faith to any man.Seems to me that if they are not Christians all the harping about doing good works will not make them a Christian. It also seems to me that all the harping about good works only frustrates a child of God who is living in a body with a sinful nature that will sin.Besides, since a true child of God is NOT doing works to be seen by men how can you tell if they are doing good works. Oh, I get it, we must do our good works so that men can see them and say how wonderful we are. --- Amazing!Matt 6:1-4 Do Good to Please God1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. NKJVI don't think the above tell us to do good works so that men will see them.Jesus told the world about God. I believe we are to tell the world about Jesus. We are to teach that God was in Jesus reconciling mankind to God. That is how we glorify God and His Son. I believe this to be our primary mission.I don't see the children of God as being lazy. I see all of mankind living in bodies with a sinful nature needing Jesus' work on the cross. When I start thinking of myself as being better than others then I need to look in a mirror. When I think I am so good then I should compare myself to Jesus and realize how sinful I am.I think people ought to take another look at the event in the garden. Didn't Satan tell eve that she could be "LIKE GOD?"I don't approve of Christians going around pretending to be like Jesus when there is no way under the sun that they can be like Jesus. If you want the world to look at you and see Jesus then what you are saying to the world is that Jesus is like you and that is just plain wrong. Jesus is God and we are not like Him in the flesh.***It was said: "Thus, you have to address both the "lazy" Christian because it seems his faith is not sincere (otherwise there would be fruit). But you also have to address the folks who think their works save them. I think that explains why people harp on works so much. The proper teaching is the one that emphasizes that fruit is born out of faith, not vice versa." ***My reply: The proper teaching is about the cross, that placing faith, trust, confidence and hope in the FINISHED work of God (Jesus) on the cross is what God commands us to do in this age of His grace.Harping on others is just a way of boasting and judging others. It sets the “harper” up as being less sinful than the others, who, in their judgment, isn't doing enough. As if their judgment is the same as God's. It is one servant boasting against another and trying to boss them. This is what the OP is all about.You simply MUST be a person who thinks they longer sin to be able to say what you have just said. If you sin, and then accuse others of sinning, then, IMHO, you are a hypocrite.Who are you to judge God’s servants? Who gave you that right?Rom 14:1-134 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:"As I live, says the Lord,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. NKJVBut it seems to me that many want to be able to judge others and yet they sit back and say "I love others." Amazing!!!When Christians judge other Christians as being lazy it sound very much like the son that stayed with his father when the other son went away. The son that stayed home was jealous and resented the son that returned. --- That is my observation.We either have the uniqueness of GRACE ALONE for salvation, or we are like every other works based religion where one hopes to get to heaven by their good works, but doesn't really know. Some brothers and sisters in Christ say, "What makes Christianity different is that we do not get to heaven by works, it is by God's grace, in Christ. No works at all." Then, you will ask them what sins one could commit to lose salvation, and many will name sins... this is a grevious contridiction, and it frustrates the Gospel of grace... God forbid.Many Christians are tainted by a works based Gospel... it is our goal to meditate on His grace, and teach it at all times. How my heart aches for people to understand His work on the cross, and accept it for the mystery that it is... by grace alone we are saved, and not by works... lest any man boast. Stop frustrating the Gospel of grace, brothers and sisters... it is not good to strive against God.
The Works Gospel
- Thread starter RichardBurger
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'RichardBurger' You are the one that seems to be wanting to talk about works. So talk about something else.
QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 14 2009, 01:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69174
'RichardBurger' You are the one that seems to be wanting to talk about works. So talk about something else.
Is this just another attempt of censorship? If others do not want to discuss works theology then they don't have to read the thread.Perhaps the truth hurts.
'RichardBurger' You are the one that seems to be wanting to talk about works. So talk about something else.
Is this just another attempt of censorship? If others do not want to discuss works theology then they don't have to read the thread.Perhaps the truth hurts.
QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69179
No matter how you want to claim your thread is not about works it is obvious that it is. You are hear telling others that they must work to bear fruit and then you say that the children of God will do those works but it seems not unless persons tell them to do them.That is the whole purpose of a works thread; to tell others what they must do. As if the writer does those things.
You are blind to see the fact that nobody, I mean nobody is saying that WORKS saves us. Clearly it doesn't save us. We are saved by grace period. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6) Christ did one work.John 7:21 - Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.As Christ did one work. He always had Faith in His Father. As His Faith wasn't dead because He always had works.James 2:14 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
No matter how you want to claim your thread is not about works it is obvious that it is. You are hear telling others that they must work to bear fruit and then you say that the children of God will do those works but it seems not unless persons tell them to do them.That is the whole purpose of a works thread; to tell others what they must do. As if the writer does those things.
You are blind to see the fact that nobody, I mean nobody is saying that WORKS saves us. Clearly it doesn't save us. We are saved by grace period. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6) Christ did one work.John 7:21 - Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.As Christ did one work. He always had Faith in His Father. As His Faith wasn't dead because He always had works.James 2:14 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Richard You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word. Were are the Apostels saved ? What was the command to them their WORK???????????? to "preach the gospel around the world" upon becoming a new man in Christ we are to do Christs work ..Just as the apostels and others were commanded We are to keep the commandments learn the Word, comfort the sick, help the poor, these are all the works God expects his children to want to do in his name out of love not duty... The same way a husband or wife has to do certain things (work) to make a marriage succesful, or a child and parent has to do have a happy sucessful family ... Your anti works religion is not Biblical simple as that.
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 14 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69182
Richard You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word. Were are the Apostels saved ? What was the command to them their WORK???????????? to "preach the gospel around the world" upon becoming a new man in Christ we are to do Christs work ..Just as the apostels and others were commanded We are to keep the commandments learn the Word, comfort the sick, help the poor, these are all the works God expects his children to want to do in his name out of love not duty... The same way a husband or wife has to do certain things (work) to make a marriage succesful, or a child and parent has to do have a happy sucessful family ... Your anti works religion is not Biblical simple as that.
As I said in my replies I am not saying that a child of God will not do good works. What I am saying is that they don't need others to kick them in the pants to do them. These others have a motive in what they are doing and, IMHO, it is based on religious pride.Was the scripture I gave not clear enough? Who are those that think they can judge a child of God concerning their works? Who are those that can accuss them in what they do?Rom 14:1-41 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. NKJVBut there are many on these forums that like to post about the works others should do. AS if they do them.
Richard You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word. Were are the Apostels saved ? What was the command to them their WORK???????????? to "preach the gospel around the world" upon becoming a new man in Christ we are to do Christs work ..Just as the apostels and others were commanded We are to keep the commandments learn the Word, comfort the sick, help the poor, these are all the works God expects his children to want to do in his name out of love not duty... The same way a husband or wife has to do certain things (work) to make a marriage succesful, or a child and parent has to do have a happy sucessful family ... Your anti works religion is not Biblical simple as that.
As I said in my replies I am not saying that a child of God will not do good works. What I am saying is that they don't need others to kick them in the pants to do them. These others have a motive in what they are doing and, IMHO, it is based on religious pride.Was the scripture I gave not clear enough? Who are those that think they can judge a child of God concerning their works? Who are those that can accuss them in what they do?Rom 14:1-41 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. NKJVBut there are many on these forums that like to post about the works others should do. AS if they do them.
RichardBurger,This "Works" theology/gospel/doctrine is completely false (people simply WANT to believe they can "achieve"/overcome for ego's sake), but it seems as though God has been putting thoughts into your head for you to discover more truth (you even mentioned "the works of God", John 6:28 and 9:3). The only 'efforts'/deeds we are obligated to make are that we should let the "works of God" (works that Jesus did) be "made manifest" in us (TRUST that GOD did all of the deeds necessary for salvation) so that we can REST in The Lord (and be bored, it's our problem to deal with "BORED").We are warned in Hebrews chapter 6 not to set another "foundation" (JESUS is our only foundation) with "works" (self effort) because it then makes it impossible for us to repent in Jesus. Since Jesus's judgement is always just, He tells us that He will not be unjust and overlook this apostasy of setting another foundation.Mankind has always used the bible to form a "moneychanger empire" and has taught scripture accordingly (needing us to do "works" and give them money). For ego's sake, we (churchgoers) have followed along with the "moneychangers"/666 will. This is why the "strong delusion" has always been so strong. But Jesus tells us what He will do in the last days (He will POUR out His spirit with "living water", John 7:38 so we "neither thirst", Revelation 7:16, Acts 1:5).Your focus on what Jesus did on the cross is something that has always been neglected in the institutions of Christianity.Starting at the cross, Jesus became the outer temple in "three days" (John 2:19 and 21) and by His spirit, we are the INNER temple (1 Corinthians 3:16 and 6:19). Jesus also became our sabbath (Luke 6:5, there is no more sabbath "DAY").The "living water" poured from His side at the cross and "water" baptism means having a Godly character.At the cross, Jesus abolished the sin laws (Ephesians 2:15) so we could live under the "LAW of LIBERTY" (James 1:25 and 2:12). Jesus did ALL of the "works" and is the ONLY spiritual authority in the universe (the bible is not an "authority").In order to "enter by the door" (John 10:1), we have to have a "faith FOR faith" (Romans 1:17, Hebrews 11:6), but first Christianity has to stop doing the works of MAN/666 (666 is not the number of the "new creation", it is the number of the sixth day creation glorifying itself as equal with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).All verses are from the RSV.http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5
We are not advocating kicking in the pants, we are simply saying God expects his children to do his works out of love as the scripture we have pointed out says you are so blind in your personal opinons and "anti Works religion" you misjudging, misinterturpting what everyone is sayingand what God is saying ... You take verse's out of context to prove your religion just as all men do . Ignoring all verse to the contrary just to hang on to your religion of "Anti Works "and judge all others. But dont tell us its biblical. Its your religion not Gods Words James 2: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.But alas you with your Anti Works religion will not allow you to see the forest through the trees
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 14 2009, 04:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69187
We are not advocating kicking in the pants, we are simply saying God expects his children to do his works out of love as the scripture we have pointed out says you are so blind in your personal opinons and "anti Works religion" you misjudging, misinterturpting what everyone is sayingand what God is saying ... You take verse's out of context to prove your religion just as all men do . Ignoring all verse to the contrary just to hang on to your religion of "Anti Works "and judge all others. But dont tell us its biblical. Its your religion not Gods Words James 2: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.But alas you with your Anti Works religion will not allow you to see the forest through the trees
Thank you Christina for all the constructive points of view about me. I am glad you can see that I am totally against works and have none for myself and that I am a Jew.I say the above since you have made it your personal work to put me down and since you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind.Perhaps it is you that is having a problem with vision.Your short sighted view on the book of James is the same old rubbish that most religious writers say since they have a vested interest in having the words James wrote apply the the children of God under grace.Just because you say that Paul and James are saying the same thing does not make it so. James makes several points in his letter that is obviously from a totally Jewish viewpoint. He gives an example of Abraham offering up his son as a work to prove his faith (Gen. 22).However Paul uses what is written in Gen 15, long before Abraham's son was even born as our example of faith (belief) being the only justification before God.But you can see it any way you wish. It does not change that facts.You said: "You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word." Well, let me see, hum, perhaps it is religious men and women that have made works a religion of their on making. A religion where some can come on forums preaching works that others should do and all the time they know their on works are not that great. But their posting about works certainly makes the reader think they must do those work or they wouldn't be posting about works. -- that is just another way of boasting.
We are not advocating kicking in the pants, we are simply saying God expects his children to do his works out of love as the scripture we have pointed out says you are so blind in your personal opinons and "anti Works religion" you misjudging, misinterturpting what everyone is sayingand what God is saying ... You take verse's out of context to prove your religion just as all men do . Ignoring all verse to the contrary just to hang on to your religion of "Anti Works "and judge all others. But dont tell us its biblical. Its your religion not Gods Words James 2: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.But alas you with your Anti Works religion will not allow you to see the forest through the trees
Thank you Christina for all the constructive points of view about me. I am glad you can see that I am totally against works and have none for myself and that I am a Jew.I say the above since you have made it your personal work to put me down and since you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind.Perhaps it is you that is having a problem with vision.Your short sighted view on the book of James is the same old rubbish that most religious writers say since they have a vested interest in having the words James wrote apply the the children of God under grace.Just because you say that Paul and James are saying the same thing does not make it so. James makes several points in his letter that is obviously from a totally Jewish viewpoint. He gives an example of Abraham offering up his son as a work to prove his faith (Gen. 22).However Paul uses what is written in Gen 15, long before Abraham's son was even born as our example of faith (belief) being the only justification before God.But you can see it any way you wish. It does not change that facts.You said: "You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word." Well, let me see, hum, perhaps it is religious men and women that have made works a religion of their on making. A religion where some can come on forums preaching works that others should do and all the time they know their on works are not that great. But their posting about works certainly makes the reader think they must do those work or they wouldn't be posting about works. -- that is just another way of boasting.
QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69195
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 14 2009, 03:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69187
We are not advocating kicking in the pants, we are simply saying God expects his children to do his works out of love as the scripture we have pointed out says you are so blind in your personal opinons and "anti Works religion" you misjudging, misinterturpting what everyone is sayingand what God is saying ... You take verse's out of context to prove your religion just as all men do . Ignoring all verse to the contrary just to hang on to your religion of "Anti Works "and judge all others. But dont tell us its biblical. Its your religion not Gods Words James 2: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.But alas you with your Anti Works religion will not allow you to see the forest through the trees
Thank you Christina for all the constructive points of view about me. I am glad you can see that I am totally against works and have none for myself and that I am a Jew.I say the above since you have made it your personal work to put me down and since you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind.Perhaps it is you that is having a problem with vision.Your short sighted view on the book of James is the same old rubbish that most religious writers say since they have a vested interest in having the words James wrote apply the the children of God under grace.Just because you say that Paul and James are saying the same thing does not make it so. James makes several points in his letter that is obviously from a totally Jewish viewpoint. He gives an example of Abraham offering up his son as a work to prove his faith (Gen. 22).However Paul uses what is written in Gen 15, long before Abraham's son was even born as our example of faith (belief) being the only justification before God.But you can see it any way you wish. It does not change that facts.Just as I figured. Richard, you end up always wanting to talk about works, yet you say it's not there and try to prove your religion is right because God says otherwise...James and Paul uses the same English word "works", but they both do not ever at all uses the same definition... they both uses a different one and they both yet agree with each other.Richard... GROW UP A BIT.
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 14 2009, 03:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69187
We are not advocating kicking in the pants, we are simply saying God expects his children to do his works out of love as the scripture we have pointed out says you are so blind in your personal opinons and "anti Works religion" you misjudging, misinterturpting what everyone is sayingand what God is saying ... You take verse's out of context to prove your religion just as all men do . Ignoring all verse to the contrary just to hang on to your religion of "Anti Works "and judge all others. But dont tell us its biblical. Its your religion not Gods Words James 2: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.But alas you with your Anti Works religion will not allow you to see the forest through the trees
Thank you Christina for all the constructive points of view about me. I am glad you can see that I am totally against works and have none for myself and that I am a Jew.I say the above since you have made it your personal work to put me down and since you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind.Perhaps it is you that is having a problem with vision.Your short sighted view on the book of James is the same old rubbish that most religious writers say since they have a vested interest in having the words James wrote apply the the children of God under grace.Just because you say that Paul and James are saying the same thing does not make it so. James makes several points in his letter that is obviously from a totally Jewish viewpoint. He gives an example of Abraham offering up his son as a work to prove his faith (Gen. 22).However Paul uses what is written in Gen 15, long before Abraham's son was even born as our example of faith (belief) being the only justification before God.But you can see it any way you wish. It does not change that facts.Just as I figured. Richard, you end up always wanting to talk about works, yet you say it's not there and try to prove your religion is right because God says otherwise...James and Paul uses the same English word "works", but they both do not ever at all uses the same definition... they both uses a different one and they both yet agree with each other.Richard... GROW UP A BIT.
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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69195
...you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind....
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, Richard
...you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind....
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, Richard
QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 03:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69195
Thank you Christina for all the constructive points of view about me. I am glad you can see that I am totally against works and have none for myself and that I am a Jew.I say the above since you have made it your personal work to put me down and since you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind.Perhaps it is you that is having a problem with vision.Your short sighted view on the book of James is the same old rubbish that most religious writers say since they have a vested interest in having the words James wrote apply the the children of God under grace.Just because you say that Paul and James are saying the same thing does not make it so. James makes several points in his letter that is obviously from a totally Jewish viewpoint. He gives an example of Abraham offering up his son as a work to prove his faith (Gen. 22).However Paul uses what is written in Gen 15, long before Abraham's son was even born as our example of faith (belief) being the only justification before God.But you can see it any way you wish. It does not change that facts.You said: "You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word." Well, let me see, hum, perhaps it is religious men and women that have made works a religion of their on making. A religion where some can come on forums preaching works that others should do and all the time they know their on works are not that great. But their posting about works certainly makes the reader think they must do those work or they wouldn't be posting about works. -- that is just another way of boasting.
LOL.... are you kidding me this is your reasoning James was writing to the Jew to make them better Christians that in no way makes his words less relevant he was still addressing the same thing from a different point of view to shed light on it ...Your only problem is it doesn't agree with you and Martin Luther .... So you have chosen to pick and chose which of Gods Words you will adhere to ... be my guest I believe its all relevant and there are no contradictions .. You on the other hand seem to be looking for reasons to ignore what contradicts you ...
Thank you Christina for all the constructive points of view about me. I am glad you can see that I am totally against works and have none for myself and that I am a Jew.I say the above since you have made it your personal work to put me down and since you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind.Perhaps it is you that is having a problem with vision.Your short sighted view on the book of James is the same old rubbish that most religious writers say since they have a vested interest in having the words James wrote apply the the children of God under grace.Just because you say that Paul and James are saying the same thing does not make it so. James makes several points in his letter that is obviously from a totally Jewish viewpoint. He gives an example of Abraham offering up his son as a work to prove his faith (Gen. 22).However Paul uses what is written in Gen 15, long before Abraham's son was even born as our example of faith (belief) being the only justification before God.But you can see it any way you wish. It does not change that facts.You said: "You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word." Well, let me see, hum, perhaps it is religious men and women that have made works a religion of their on making. A religion where some can come on forums preaching works that others should do and all the time they know their on works are not that great. But their posting about works certainly makes the reader think they must do those work or they wouldn't be posting about works. -- that is just another way of boasting.
LOL.... are you kidding me this is your reasoning James was writing to the Jew to make them better Christians that in no way makes his words less relevant he was still addressing the same thing from a different point of view to shed light on it ...Your only problem is it doesn't agree with you and Martin Luther .... So you have chosen to pick and chose which of Gods Words you will adhere to ... be my guest I believe its all relevant and there are no contradictions .. You on the other hand seem to be looking for reasons to ignore what contradicts you ...
QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 14 2009, 06:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69198
QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69195
...you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind....
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, RichardTom WebsterJudah is only two of the tribes of Israel. Israel (Jacob) through Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) is ten tribes of Israel.
QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69195
...you quote from a letter (James book) that was written to the Jews, you must think I am a Jew, and that even though I said I am not saying a child of God will not have works., I am against works of any kind....
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, RichardTom WebsterJudah is only two of the tribes of Israel. Israel (Jacob) through Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) is ten tribes of Israel.
tomwebster
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QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 14 2009, 06:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69200
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, RichardTom WebsterJudah is only two of the tribes of Israel. Israel (Jacob) through Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) is ten tribes of Israel.
My comment was sarcasm. Judah was actually just one tribe. The current Judah is made up of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. They were the Southern Tribes
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, RichardTom WebsterJudah is only two of the tribes of Israel. Israel (Jacob) through Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) is ten tribes of Israel.
My comment was sarcasm. Judah was actually just one tribe. The current Judah is made up of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. They were the Southern Tribes
QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 14 2009, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69198
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, Richard
So!!!!I am NOT a Jew.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. I think Judah is only one of the twelve, Richard
So!!!!I am NOT a Jew.
Do you have a clue what you are saying Richard ? All the apostles started out talking to Jews as well as gentiles even Christ taught Jews James was a Christian He was an apostle given the knowledge of God on Pentecost Day... his Words are to all Christians and those who would/will become Christians just like the rest of the New testament your reasoning is completely flawed. He was talking to these scattered about being a good/better Christians not remaining Jews.Your reasoning defy's logic and scripture
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 14 2009, 09:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69206
Do you have a clue what you are saying Richard ? All the apostles started out talking to Jews as well as gentiles even Christ taught Jews James was a Christian He was an apostle given the knowledge of God on Pentecost Day... his Words are to all Christians and those who would/will become Christians just like the rest of the New testament your reasoning is completely flawed. He was talking to these scattered about being a good/better Christians not remaining Jews.Your reasoning defy's logic and scripture
To you it does but according to the word of God those Jews (not the 12) refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and in AD 70 God destroyed the Temple and turned to the Gentiles. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. This was indicated in the Parrable about the fig tree that did not bare any fruit for three years. You do know that one don't you?Since you are so adamant that James was written to the Grace church then I will start a new thread on James vs Paul. It shows that James and Paul differed on three major things; salvation, prayer, and healing.I will start a new thread because the book of James is not a part of this thread.
Do you have a clue what you are saying Richard ? All the apostles started out talking to Jews as well as gentiles even Christ taught Jews James was a Christian He was an apostle given the knowledge of God on Pentecost Day... his Words are to all Christians and those who would/will become Christians just like the rest of the New testament your reasoning is completely flawed. He was talking to these scattered about being a good/better Christians not remaining Jews.Your reasoning defy's logic and scripture
To you it does but according to the word of God those Jews (not the 12) refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and in AD 70 God destroyed the Temple and turned to the Gentiles. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. This was indicated in the Parrable about the fig tree that did not bare any fruit for three years. You do know that one don't you?Since you are so adamant that James was written to the Grace church then I will start a new thread on James vs Paul. It shows that James and Paul differed on three major things; salvation, prayer, and healing.I will start a new thread because the book of James is not a part of this thread.
According to Ezekiel 36:27 doesn't a persons works (good works) equal the same thing as God's grace? Isn't boasting of your good works the same as children saying that Father loves me best?
James vs. PaulWe have entitled this article "James vs. Paul". However, the conflict between James and Paul is not really a conflict at all. Each man gave the instructions that God intended for the particular group of people to whom they ministered. In order to understand and appreciate that fact, we must rightly divide the Word of Truth.THE PROBLEM:James 2:24 You see then that a man is ""justified by works,"" and ""not by faith only.""But Paul said:Gal 2:16 "knowing that a man is ""not justified by the works"" of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.There is no way to harmonize or blend the two statements above. Nor is there any reason to want to. Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.THE STUDY:Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15 Rightly dividing the Word of Truth explains, clearly and simply, many of the seeming contradictions in God's Word. This is nowhere more evident than when comparing the writings of James with those of Paul. In several very critical areas, James and Paul give diametrically opposed instruction. Without an understanding of the Biblical principles of right division, we have no hope of obeying the Word of God because obeying one writer causes us to disobey another.The Book of Straw:"The Epistle of Straw" is a phrase the great reformer Martin Luther is said to have used in reference to the book of James. As Luther studied Paul's writings, especially the book of Romans, he came to understand the revolutionary truth of justification by grace through faith without the works of the law. He was unable to reconcile this seeming contradiction to James' writings. As a result he began to question whether or not the book of James even belonged in the canon of Scripture.The difficulties Martin Luther experienced are compounded as we compare Paul and James more closely. Not only about salvation do Paul and James give different instruction, but they also disagree in their teachings about prayer and healing. What do we do with these differing teachings? Is James really an "Epistle of Straw" that has no place in the canon of Scripture?In order to understand these seeming contradictions, we must understand some details about the authors of the books and the very different ministries to which God had called them.Paul was called by God to be the Apostle of the Gentiles.For I [Paul] speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 11:13Paul's ministry and epistles are to the Gentiles.Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Romans 16:3,4Paul's message is a message of freedom from the bondage of the law.Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4It is not clear which James actually wrote the book of James. It could be one of two apostles named James (See Matthew 10:2,3) or the head of the Jewish church at Jerusalem, who was also named James (See Acts 15:13 & 21:18). Whichever James was the author, it is clear that he was bound by the agreement made in Acts 15, and recorded by Paul in Galatians 2; limiting his ministry to the believing remnant in Israel.And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Galatians 2:9The book of James is specifically addressed to members of the nation of Israel.James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. James 1:1The people to whom James wrote were still living under the commandments and ordinances of the law.These two men, James and Paul, and the people to whom they wrote are all very dissimilar. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth properly interprets each man's writings without changing or eliminating either. While differing on several matters, both keep within the context of the people they ministered to, and the purpose of their ministry.James vs. Paul; SalvationThe most serious area of disagreement between James and Paul is their explanation of salvation. James indicates that good works must be added to faith to produce salvation.Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:17-20Paul gives a different explanation of salvation. Paul not only teaches that works are unnecessary for salvation, he specifically excludes works from the salvation process.Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4,5These two explanations of salvation are in conflict. What makes the disagreement between Paul and James even more perplexing is that both men point to Abraham as a validation of their teaching.James said: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2: 21,22 ------ Please note that according to scriptures Abram was accounted as righteous before God long before Isaac was even born. Yet James points to Abraham works many years after the birth of Isaac.Paul said: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:2,3 ------ Please note that Paul states that Abraham was accounted as righteous BEFORE Isaac was born.This difference is answered by understanding that James was describing the salvation requirements for his Jewish audience (the circumcision), while Paul was describing the salvation requirements for this age of God's grace which is both for the Gentile audience (the uncircumcision) and the Jews. They each point to Abraham as an example, but use different events from Abraham's life to support their teaching.Paul cites an event recorded in Genesis 15.And he [God] brought him [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5,6 ---- This was before Isaac was born.James cites an event recorded in Genesis 22. --- This happened many years after Isaac was born.And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:1,2Paul points to a time when Abraham's faith required him to do nothing. He was simply to wait for the promised seed. In fact, when Abraham tried to help God's plan along, the results were disastrous. (See Genesis 16) James, on the other hand, points to a time when Abraham's faith required him to do something. He had to physically take his son into Moriah and offer him as a sacrifice to the Lord. The principle here is if God says "don't do," then faith doesn't do. --- If God says "do," then faith does. To the circumcision God said "do." To the uncircumcision, he said, "don't do." This is why Paul used two different terms when describing the faith of the circumcision and the uncircumcision.Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:29,30Is there a difference between "by faith" and "through faith?"It is significant that between the two events referred to above, another very important event took place in Abraham's life. In Genesis 17, God instituted circumcision as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul uses Abraham in uncircumcision as an example of justification "through faith" without the works of the law. --- James uses Abraham in circumcision as an example of justification "by faith" plus the works of the law. Paul discusses and explains this dual fatherhood of Abraham in detail in the fourth chapter of Romans.When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, the conflict between James and Paul concerning salvation is easily resolved.James vs. Paul; PrayerJames and Paul also disagree on prayer. James presents prayer as a way to receive physical blessing from God if you obey the law and ask for the proper things.Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4:2,3Paul presents prayer as a way to maintain spiritual stability in our lives regardless of the physical circumstances in which we may find ourselves.Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6,7James indicates that God will give his readers the desires of their hearts as long as those desires are in keeping with God's law. Paul, on the other hand, indicates that whatever the desires of our hearts are, God's response is always the same, peace. The response that Paul promises involves provision for our hearts and minds, not our bodies. It is not a promise of physical provision as was James' promise to Israel.The examples of prayer used by James and Paul illustrate the differences in their teachings on the issue.Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. James 5:17,18A detailed study of the example given by James shows what is in accord with the principles of the law. Elijah was prophesying during the reign of wicked King Ahab. (See I Kings 16:30-33) In response to the king's wickedness, God shut up the windows of heaven just as he had promised in the law. (See Deuteronomy 28:23,24) James presents an example of prayer in keeping with God's instruction to Israel under the law.Paul's teaching on prayer is best illustrated by an example from his own life.And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. II Corinthians 12:7-9As Paul prayed about his thorn in the flesh, nothing about his physical circumstance changed. The only thing that changed was Paul's reaction to the circumstance. He changed from desiring the thorn to be taken away to glorying in it. His prayer had changed his heart and mind. This is the prayer promise God gives to the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace.Rightly dividing the Word of Truth resolves the conflict between James’ and Paul's instructions on prayer.James vs. Paul; HealingThe final area of difference in the teaching of James and Paul is healing. James gives specific instruction about how to receive healing.Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. James 5:14,15As with all of James' instructions, his pattern for healing is in perfect keeping with the instructions given to Israel in the Law of Moses. Below is God's instruction in the law concerning the healing of leprosy.And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand: And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD: And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering: And the remnant of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall pour upon the head of him that is to be cleansed: and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD. Leviticus 14:15-18The pattern of anointing with oil by the spiritual leadership is the same as described by James. Not only is the leper's disease healed, but also atonement is made for his sin. James' instructions about healing also promised that the sins of the person healed would be forgiven when God raised him up.A key passage in Paul's epistles about healing is II Corinthians 12 quoted earlier. In that passage Paul did none of the things that James instructs. He did not call for the elders of the church, he was not anointed with oil, and he was not raised up. Not only did Paul not follow the instruction of James for himself, he also did not recommend it to other members of the Body of Christ.When Timothy suffered an infirmity in the flesh, Paul recommended medicine.Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. I Timothy 5:23When Trophimus, one of Paul's ministry partners, was sick, no anointing or prayer for healing was ordered. Paul was forced to go on without him.Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. II Timothy 4:20God gives no promise of physical healing for the Body of Christ through Paul as He did for Israel through James. In fact, Paul tells us that we must wait for the redemption of our bodies. (See Romans 8:22-25)When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, the conflict between Jame's and Paul's instructions concerning healing is easily resolved.This study is a production of: Grace Alive MinistriesPO Box 151Glasgow, PA 16644Author: Tracy Plessinger
QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 07:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69207
To you it does but according to the word of God those Jews (not the 12) refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and in AD 70 God destroyed the Temple and turned to the Gentiles. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. This was indicated in the Parrable about the fig tree that did not bare any fruit for three years. You do know that one don't you?Since you are so adamant that James was written to the Grace church then I will start a new thread on James vs Paul. It shows that James and Paul differed on three major things; salvation, prayer, and healing.I will start a new thread because the book of James is not a part of this thread.
Like I said your reasoning defy's logic Im not interesteded in disproving an Apostel and the very word of God so one can hang on to some religion of Anti Works you come up with you dont get the scattered or the Parable nor the doctrine of faith with works. Any one as bent on denying Gods word and making contrdictions to hang on to their teaching of men is no one I want to listen too.
To you it does but according to the word of God those Jews (not the 12) refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and in AD 70 God destroyed the Temple and turned to the Gentiles. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. This was indicated in the Parrable about the fig tree that did not bare any fruit for three years. You do know that one don't you?Since you are so adamant that James was written to the Grace church then I will start a new thread on James vs Paul. It shows that James and Paul differed on three major things; salvation, prayer, and healing.I will start a new thread because the book of James is not a part of this thread.
Like I said your reasoning defy's logic Im not interesteded in disproving an Apostel and the very word of God so one can hang on to some religion of Anti Works you come up with you dont get the scattered or the Parable nor the doctrine of faith with works. Any one as bent on denying Gods word and making contrdictions to hang on to their teaching of men is no one I want to listen too.
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