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The Works Gospel

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RichardBurger, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 18 2009, 08:34 AM)
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 18 2009, 06:41 AM)
    What a joke! I have never denied scripturers. What I have said is that some are not written to the Gentile church. Since you believe the scriptrures have you sold youir house yet? FOOLISHNESS! Have you put a snake up on a pole yet? Where is the Jewish Temple you go to? What kind of food do you eat? --- FOOLISHNESS!You should have noticed that you, and some others, have not offered ANY comments on the scriptures in my posts either. If I have to, shouldn't you? You people are amazingly blind.The doctrine that I preach “””IS””” in the Bible. But you just can't see it. It is true that there are none so blind as those that refuse to see. Now I realize you will say that to me too but it doesn't matter to me. My gospel was taught to me by the Holy Spirit through Paul’s writings.I preach the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. IT was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was not the gospel that Jesus and the Apostles taught to the Jews. It is a gospel of freedom in Christ but the religious are always trying to take that freedom away and preaching "DO THOSE GOOD WORKS OR YOUR FAITH IS DEAD." The Jews did it to Paul and some on this forum are doing the same to the children of God.What is telling is that you said nothing about the young man that killed himself. So much for your good works of compassion. But you could not because your conscience wouldn't let you. Why, because you know you are doing the same thing to others.You people are so intent on denigrating me you have no other focus. But I expect that from the religious.I am taking a break. I get tired of the posts about me, PERSONALLY and the condemnations of me. On most forums there is a rule against making derogative comments about posters. I see that does not apply here.Since I am opposed to the religious who make posts about works, the religious certainly have a vested interest in denigrating me. I take it up to a point and then have to take a rest. See you later.
    In my Bible there is only ONE gospel and doctrine...that is Christ crucified. Are there 2 messages, one for the jews and one for gentiles?I believe this scriptures says otherwise....1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.How can there be unity in the Body of Christ if there are differing Gospels? Isn't Christ the only way to God?Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.May I add to the fact is this?I Corinthians 1:12 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.I Corinthians 1:13 - Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?Richard, We hate your doctrine period. We hate your doctrine of men! Your doctrine is never God's doctrine and you are trying to divide the Body of Christ with your deceiving foolishness doctrine.
  2. shepherdsword

    shepherdsword New Member

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    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 18 2009, 09:16 AM)
    You wait is over! Scriptures I have posted on this thread.Matt 6:1-4 Do Good to Please God1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. NKJVRom 14:1-134 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:"As I live, says the Lord,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. NKJV
    And these verse back your position how?QUOTE
    Gal 2:16 "knowing that a man is ""not justified by the works"" of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
    This is a strawman. No one here said we were JUSTIFIED by the works of the law. You are totally confused. We said we are justified by faith and that faith produces works. QUOTE
    Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
    I agree,if you attempt to be justified by the law you are fallen from grace. This is what FAITH produces,a walk in the Spirit:Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.QUOTE
    For I [Paul] speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 11:13
    This statement doesn't mean he had one gospel for the gentiles and the other apostles had a different gospel for the Jews. This can be proven by:Gal. 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. QUOTE
    Paul's ministry and epistles are to the GentilesStand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4***It is not clear which James actually wrote the book of James. It could be one of two apostles named James (See Matthew 10:2,3) or the head of the Jewish church at Jerusalem, who was also named James (See Acts 15:13 & 21:18). Whichever James was the author, it is clear that he was bound by the agreement made in Acts 15, and recorded by Paul in Galatians 2; limiting his ministry to the believing remnant in Israel.
    No, it is not "clear". In fact James 2:1 show that he was speaking to believers in the Lord Jesus. This destroys your argument.QUOTE
    And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Galatians 2:9***These two explanations of salvation are in conflict. What makes the disagreement between Paul and James even more perplexing is that both men point to Abraham as a validation of their teaching.James said: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2: 21,22 ------ Please note that according to scriptures Abram was accounted as righteous before God long before Isaac was even born. Yet James points to Abraham works many years after the birth of Isaac.Paul said: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:2,3 ------ Please note that Paul states that Abraham was accounted as righteous BEFORE Isaac was born.This difference is answered by understanding that James was describing the salvation requirements for his Jewish audience (the circumcision), while Paul was describing the salvation requirements for this age of God's grace which is both for the Gentile audience (the uncircumcision) and the Jews. They each point to Abraham as an example, but use different events from Abraham's life to support their teaching.
    The two explanations are NOT in conflict. Your interpretation of them is conflicting. You seem unable to understand that we are not saying we are justified by the works that faith produces. We say we are justified by faith and that this faith is validated by and proven to be real by the works that it produces. QUOTE
    Paul cites an event recorded in Genesis 15.***Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4:2,3Paul presents prayer as a way to maintain spiritual stability in our lives regardless of the physical circumstances in which we may find ourselves.Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6,7
    What is the price of tea in China ?**QUOTE
    Rom 4:1-6 (in context)4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
    Abraham and David were not justified by works but by faith BEFORE works were produced. If you look in Hebrews 11 you see a long list of the works that faith produced. Among them is David subduing a kingdom and Abraham offering Issac. They were not justified by these works but their faith was validated by them. This exegesis is hermeneutical as it fits in with the continuity of scripture. Yours cannot be because it is clear that James was writing to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. QUOTE
    NKJVI Jn 5:4-5 (NKJ)4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 Cor 6:11-12 (NKJ)11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    What was that price of tea in China again?QUOTE
    My comment: The Jews were teaching the gospel of the kingdom. That is that the “”kingdom was at hand.”” Jesus was there to set up the kingdom that was promised to the Jews. --- But the Jews refuse to accept Him as their king and Jesus could not set up the kingdom. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their king but they never did (see the parable about the fig tree in Luke 13:7-9). --- So God turned to the Gentiles with a totally new gospel That, according to Paul, was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was a gospel of Grace. But religious men/women never will accept that to be the truth. They say that Jesus, the Apostle and Paul all taught the same gospel.****So, to you, I have never posted any scriptures. This proves how blind you are.Have a wonderful day.
    Your comments are non sequitur as can be proven by the three points below: 1)Jesus never intended to "set up a kingdom" He came to die on the cross as can be shown from these verses:Jn 12:23-2823 But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor. 27 "Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 2)Paul clearly defined what a true jew was. Ro 2:28-2928 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.3)James chapter 2 clearly addressed those who were having faith in the Lord Jesus and that in them faith without works is dead:Jas 2:1-22 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. Lets look a few verses down and see what he told these believers in the Lord Jesus:Jas 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.