1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Works Gospel

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RichardBurger, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. shepherdsword

    shepherdsword New Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 16 2009, 08:11 AM)
    True faith is never dead! By Richard Burger, November 19, 2007True and sincere faith, trust, confidence, and hope IN God's work on the cross is NEVER dead. We are saved and kept by God's power, not our own. We have overcome the world by our faith in what God has done. How can that be considered dead faith? But, because of James' letter to the Jews (not the grace Church),
    Are you actually saying that the Jews had one gospel and we have another and therefore these NEW TESTAMENT verses do not apply to us? I would be wary of a statement like that. QUOTE
    men throw the words "dead faith" around a lot. Religious men refuse to see that James's was not writing to the grace church.
    You define quoting verses directly form the new testament as "throwing" around? The whole context of James 2 is very clear. He is correcting those who claimed faith in JESUS. James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons. Notice how it doesn't say faith in the "torah" of faith in "the law of Moses"? Is says "faith of our Lord Jesus Christ" This makes the statements concerning faith and works absolutely relevant to ANY Christian. This means you are in TOTAL error regarding your interpretation. QUOTE
    Even though James said who he was writing to in James 1:1 they refuse to believe it. Those who actively trust in God's work on the cross are placing their eternal life on the work of God. They are completely trusting in God's promise, in Christ, to save and keep them. Since their faith is in God's work on the cross their faith is never dead.
    When he mentions the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ in 2:1 it is CLEAR that it is applicable to any Christian. I guess people who fail to see this have never read:Romans 228For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. QUOTE
    But religious people can never be set free because they think their salvation is based on what they do (thanks to James); that their faith is dead unless they do works. Then it becomes a question of how much good works can they do; how much is enough? --- Religion is all about what men/women do for God. --- But for the Child of God it is all about what God has done for them on the cross. They have placed there faith, trust, confidence and hope in Jesus' work on the cross and according to the Scriptures those who put their trust in the Lord will never be put to shame.
    You aren't hearing a word we are saying. You seem to have a loop in your mind that correlates any mention of works as someone saying that they are saved by them. No one here that I have read so far has said that. That are simply saying that the faith that is a VALID one produces works. This doesn't mean that works is doing the saving it means that works is the result of true salvation. Someone who is truly saved will always produce the fruit of the Spirit. They will always have a love for God and their brother. In fact John says this about salvation:1John 3:1414We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. John here also offers an Apostolic correction to a salvation WITHOUT works( this is not YOUR definition of a salvation BY works)He is saying we know we have passed from death unto life because we have love. The faith we have in the Lord Jesus always produces love. A love for Godn and a love for people. This goes back to,and is in union with, what James was saying in chapter 2 of his letter. How can we see our brother in need and say we have love? If we don't have love how can we say the faith we have is valid? He is saying that since your faith hasn't produced anything you cannot know if it is a true faith or not. It's not a question of "how many works must I do to be saved" That is a question that someone who is eating from the tree of knowledge would ask. To eat from that tree is death. When we have true faith in the Lord Jesus we will eat from the tree of life. This will always produce love.If your faith isn't producing love I suggest you follow Paul' advice:Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; It sounds like you have been sitting under the teachings of Man, that sure didn't come from the Holy Spirit
     
  2. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    19
    Shepherdsword said: Are you actually saying that the Jews had one gospel and we have another and therefore these NEW TESTAMENT verses do not apply to us? I would be wary of a statement like that.My comment: The Jews were teaching the gospel of the kingdom. That is that the “”kingdom was at hand.”” Jesus was there to set up the kingdom that was promised to the Jews. --- But the Jews refuse to accept Him as their king and Jesus could not set up the kingdom. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their king but they never did (see the parable about the fig tree in Luke 13:7-9). So God turned to the Gentiles with a totally new gospel That, according to Paul, was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was a gospel of Grace. But religious men/women never will accept that to be the truth. They say that Jesus, the Apostle and Paul all taught the same gospel.****Shepherdsword said: You define quoting verses directly form the new testament as "throwing" around? The whole context of James 2 is very clear. He is correcting those who claimed faith in JESUS. James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.My comment: Jesus never rescinded the Law of Moses but Paul taught that we are no longer under the Law of Moses. So tell me, you that know so much, which do you believe? Are you still under the Law of Moses? Throwing around is my terminology and I will use it as I please. James is speaking to Jews who, at that time, were under the Law of Moses.**** Shepherdsword said: Notice how it doesn't say faith in the "torah" of faith in "the law of Moses"? Is says "faith of our Lord Jesus Christ" This makes the statements concerning faith and works absolutely relevant to ANY Christian. This means you are in TOTAL error regarding your interpretation.My comment: I can read what it says just as well as you can. He was clearly speaking to the Jews just as he said he was. Thank you for your wonderful knowledge as to who is in error. I see this as a disagreement and will not say you are in error. But if it makes you feel better just keep it up. I don’t mind.****Shepherdsword said: When he mentions the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ in 2:1 it is CLEAR that it is applicable to any Christian. I guess people who fail to see this have never read: Romans 228For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.My comment: What does this have to do with what we are discussing?****Shepherdsword said: You aren't hearing a word we are saying. You seem to have a loop in your mind that correlates any mention of works as someone saying that they are saved by them. No one here that I have read so far has said that. That are simply saying that the faith that is a VALID one produces works. This doesn't mean that works is doing the saving it means that works is the result of true salvation. Someone who is truly saved will always produce the fruit of the Spirit. They will always have a love for God and their brother. In fact John says this about salvation: 1John 3:1414We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. My comment: And you are not hearing anything that WE are saying. Thank you for your ideas about me personally. If you persist I will find some personal comments to make about you. Most people that make posts about works will say it isn’t about works and I find that amazing. It is as if they can’t see what they are saying. Saying your faith is dead unless you do works is the same thing as saying you have to do works. I have never said that A child of God will not do good works. But if they go out and do works to show others about their faith it is a show of boasting. (see Matt 6:1-4) According to Jesus a person is not to do good works to be seen by men. --- I would also like to say that you can’t see faith, or trust, or confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross. But God can and that is all that matters.****Shepherdsword said: John here also offers an Apostolic correction to a salvation WITHOUT works( this is not YOUR definition of a salvation BY works)He is saying we know we have passed from death unto life because we have love. The faith we have in the Lord Jesus always produces love. A love for Godn and a love for people. This goes back to,and is in union with, what James was saying in chapter 2 of his letter. How can we see our brother in need and say we have love? If we don't have love how can we say the faith we have is valid? He is saying that since your faith hasn't produced anything you cannot know if it is a true faith or not. It's not a question of "how many works must I do to be saved" That is a question that someone who is eating from the tree of knowledge would ask. To eat from that tree is death. When we have true faith in the Lord Jesus we will eat from the tree of life. This will always produce love.If your faith isn't producing love I suggest you follow Paul' advice:Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;My comment: Unless you can say you love others ALL THE TIME and that you never fail to do it, yuou have no business telling others that they must do it. There aree some on this very thread that have no love for me and yet they are blind to it. You will never know my relationship with God because you are just like Job’s three religious friends. But that does not affect my relationship with God. --- Do I love others??? Just as much as you do. I am showing you love by not stooping to frivolous derogatory remarks about you. Can you do the same?****Shepherdsword said: It sounds like you have been sitting under the teachings of Man, that sure didn't come from the Holy Spirit.My comment: If my teaching was from men the religious on this forum would love me.
     
  3. GeneralJ

    GeneralJ New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    My comment: If my teaching was from men the religious on this forum would love me.[/quote]Dont confuse "correction" with "persecution."And persecution is "for Christs sake."
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,111
    Likes Received:
    215
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't quite know why this particular discussion always devolves into an argument about who is "more Christian" than the other. However, inevitably, the charges of being less Christian are brought into a discussion that I would say is next to worthless. I think the Bible is pretty clear on the matter, and Romans 11 seems to be overlooked in this discussion.QUOTE
    Romans 11:5-8Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    I don't understand how you could argue that it's one or the other when this verse clearly says it's both. Many of you hear are advocating that and fight on Christian soldiers for understanding and (more importantly) listening to what the Word says. As the good Gospel of James tells us, "Faith without works is dead." As a true Christian (content to strive for your own Christianity as opposed to the labeling of others under your own preconceived system), one will glory in the works of the Lord and recognize that our very purpose is God's ultimate purpose. If you stand idle in this purpose, what good are you? It's not that a person does works to be saved. They perform the works because they desire to be pleasing to the Father and emulate his love for us. It's not by Faith in the earthly sense that someone simply says "I am a child of God." It is a child of God that only God is deemed fit to judge that understands it's not just words, but deeds as a manifestation of the faith. A natural spiritual desire to do the work of the Lord.For example, Christ addresses the churches in Revelation that he approves of, repeatedly saying:QUOTE
    Revelation 3:8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    QUOTE
    James 4:8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
    Why cleanse hands? Because he that soils his hands with the work of the devil does the works of the devil.
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    19
    QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 16 2009, 01:21 PM)
    My comment: If my teaching was from men the religious on this forum would love me.Dont confuse "correction" with "persecution."And persecution is "for Christs sake."
    So you think you are correcting me, what a laugh. Have you ever thought that I may be correcting YOU? But of course you haven't because you think you know the truth and I don't. You can't see that everyone on this forum thinks they are correct and then you want to fault me for doing the same.Wonderful, (and certainly one sided)
     
  6. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 16 2009, 07:09 PM)
    QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 16 2009, 12:21 PM)
    Dont confuse "correction" with "persecution."And persecution is "for Christs sake."
    So you think you are correcting me, what a laugh. Have you ever thought that I may be correcting YOU? But of course you haven't because you think you know the truth and I don't. You can't see that everyone on this forum thinks they are correct and then you want to fault me for doing the same.Wonderful, (and certainly one sided)You know Richard, I feel like its "You vs The World" It obviously doesn't that way... You seem to have a big ego and you can't even get past that.Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  7. For Life

    For Life New Member

    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 16 2009, 06:09 PM)
    So you think you are correcting me, what a laugh. Have you ever thought that I may be correcting YOU? But of course you haven't because you think you know the truth and I don't. You can't see that everyone on this forum thinks they are correct and then you want to fault me for doing the same.Wonderful, (and certainly one sided)
    Our pastor talked about this in church yesterday. He said even a 3 year old thinks they have everything figured out. And then when they get to be teen-agers they don't wonder at how much wisdom their parents have, they still think they have everything figured out. And then when we become adults we still think we have everything figured out. I bet every one of us has learned so many things in the last five years alone that we can't say we have it all figured out. We should be blessed to have so many believers showing us so many different points of view. We shouldn't worry about correction. We should expect it every day. How can you learn without correction? I think that's what God does with you when you accept Him, He corrects you, all the time, so you will learn.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 16 2009, 05:09 PM)
    So you think you are correcting me, what a laugh. Have you ever thought that I may be correcting YOU? But of course you haven't because you think you know the truth and I don't. You can't see that everyone on this forum thinks they are correct and then you want to fault me for doing the same.Wonderful, (and certainly one sided)
    LOL...No you are certainly notcorrecting /teaching anyone anything sense your view is against scripture and requires us to ignore to many verse's to even mention create contradictions that dont exist and prove an apostel who was given the knowledge of God is purposley being misleading ... Its sad but we are in the time of Amos 8:11 so to be expected ...
     
  9. shepherdsword

    shepherdsword New Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 16 2009, 12:31 PM)
    Shepherdsword said: Are you actually saying that the Jews had one gospel and we have another and therefore these NEW TESTAMENT verses do not apply to us? I would be wary of a statement like that.My comment: The Jews were teaching the gospel of the kingdom. That is that the “”kingdom was at hand.”” Jesus was there to set up the kingdom that was promised to the Jews. --- But the Jews refuse to accept Him as their king and Jesus could not set up the kingdom. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their king but they never did (see the parable about the fig tree in Luke 13:7-9). So God turned to the Gentiles with a totally new gospel That, according to Paul, was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was a gospel of Grace. But religious men/women never will accept that to be the truth. They say that Jesus, the Apostle and Paul all taught the same gospel.
    You have failed to address why the context of faith in James in dealt with in regard to the Lord Jesus. This means it applies to any believerQUOTE
    Shepherdsword said: You define quoting verses directly form the new testament as "throwing" around? The whole context of James 2 is very clear. He is correcting those who claimed faith in JESUS. James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.My comment: Jesus never rescinded the Law of Moses but Paul taught that we are no longer under the Law of Moses. So tell me, you that know so much, which do you believe? Are you still under the Law of Moses? Throwing around is my terminology and I will use it as I please. James is speaking to Jews who, at that time, were under the Law of Moses.****
    He is talking to those who have faith in the Lord Jesus. The context of who chapter two is talking to is set by 2:1 "have not the faith of the Lord Jesus in respect to persons. To attempt to twist this verse to address anyone under the Mosaic law is ridiculous. The scriptures show in several places that the middle wall of partition has been broken down and the two(jew and gentile) have been made one flesh.QUOTE
    My comment: I can read what it says just as well as you can. He was clearly speaking to the Jews just as he said he was. Thank you for your wonderful knowledge as to who is in error. I see this as a disagreement and will not say you are in error. But if it makes you feel better just keep it up. I don’t mind.
    I can help but call it as I see it. You are teaching a Gospel that Paul didn't teach.QUOTE
    Shepherdsword said: When he mentions the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ in 2:1 it is CLEAR that it is applicable to any Christian. I guess people who fail to see this have never read: Romans 228For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.My comment: What does this have to do with what we are discussing?
    Since your whole position rests on the fact that it is jews that are being addressed it has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion. You mentioned that James was written to jews and I simply defined what a jew was in the new testament . This proves he was talking to all believers.QUOTE
    Shepherdsword said: You aren't hearing a word we are saying. You seem to have a loop in your mind that correlates any mention of works as someone saying that they are saved by them. No one here that I have read so far has said that. That are simply saying that the faith that is a VALID one produces works. This doesn't mean that works is doing the saving it means that works is the result of true salvation. Someone who is truly saved will always produce the fruit of the Spirit. They will always have a love for God and their brother. In fact John says this about salvation: 1John 3:1414We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. My comment: And you are not hearing anything that WE are saying. Thank you for your ideas about me personally. If you persist I will find some personal comments to make about you.
    I apologize if you take it personally but when I defined my position with perfect clarity and you continue to deal with the strawman that we are not saved BY works then I have to say you are not hearing. In fact I will say it again..you are not hearing. I am saying that salvation always PRODUCES works not that we are saved by works. Do me the courtesy of properly representing my position when you attempt to refute it and I will offer a retraction.QUOTE
    Most people that make posts about works will say it isn’t about works and I find that amazing. It is as if they can’t see what they are saying. Saying your faith is dead unless you do works is the same thing as saying you have to do works.
    The bible says that faith without works is dead . You can wiggle and squirm until doomsday but it will not change the fact,as I have proven prior, that this verse was addressed to ALL believers. In order to deal with my position you need to deal with it point by point. You seem bent on making it personal and I am not coming from there at all. I will be willing to change my belief regarding this if you can offer a sound biblical position that clearly refutes mine. I would not consider such a refutation a personal attack. Are we discussing this just to get an ego boost on being right? I can only speak for myself and say no. I am contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints and I don't think your doctrine represents that. If you think it does then please present a solid biblical stand that deals with mine on a point by point exegetical level. That is the courtesy I am trying to extend to you. QUOTE
    I have never said that A child of God will not do good works. But if they go out and do works to show others about their faith it is a show of boasting. (see Matt 6:1-4) According to Jesus a person is not to do good works to be seen by men. --- I would also like to say that you can’t see faith, or trust, or confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross. But God can and that is all that matters.
    This is pure straw man since no one mentioned boasting or showing these works before men. ****QUOTE
    Shepherdsword said: John here also offers an Apostolic correction to a salvation WITHOUT works( this is not YOUR definition of a salvation BY works)He is saying we know we have passed from death unto life because we have love. The faith we have in the Lord Jesus always produces love. A love for Godn and a love for people. This goes back to,and is in union with, what James was saying in chapter 2 of his letter. How can we see our brother in need and say we have love? If we don't have love how can we say the faith we have is valid? He is saying that since your faith hasn't produced anything you cannot know if it is a true faith or not. It's not a question of "how many works must I do to be saved" That is a question that someone who is eating from the tree of knowledge would ask. To eat from that tree is death. When we have true faith in the Lord Jesus we will eat from the tree of life. This will always produce love.If your faith isn't producing love I suggest you follow Paul' advice:Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;My comment: Unless you can say you love others ALL THE TIME and that you never fail to do it, yuou have no business telling others that they must do it. There aree some on this very thread that have no love for me and yet they are blind to it. You will never know my relationship with God because you are just like Job’s three religious friends. But that does not affect my relationship with God. --- Do I love others??? Just as much as you do. I am showing you love by not stooping to frivolous derogatory remarks about you. Can you do the same?
    I am not the one saying that ...the bible is saying that. You can stand before the throne and claim innocence based on the fact that you assume I don't love others but that is a spurious position.My remarks are not meant to be derogatory. I am sorry if you feel biblical correction degrades you in some way. The only comment I made that can be considered personal was the one about you not hearing a word we are saying. I explained why I said that. It isn't meant to degrade you and I stand by it. It is a statement that I wouldn't be offended by. I would try to understand why someone would make it and then remedy that. ****QUOTE
    Shepherdsword said: It sounds like you have been sitting under the teachings of Man, that sure didn't come from the Holy Spirit.My comment: If my teaching was from men the religious on this forum would love me.
    Very few pick up the new testament and adopt the doctrine you have. I know because I have been there. I believed in the easy grace eternal security message for years. I didn't get it by picking up the bible and reading it though. I got it because some teacher kept drilling it into my head and twisting around every scriptural objection I presented to refute it.
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 16 2009, 09:34 PM)
    ...I apologize if you take it personally but when I defined my position with perfect clarity and you continue to deal with the strawman that we are not saved BY works then I have to say you are not hearing. In fact I will say it again..you are not hearing. I am saying that salvation always PRODUCES works not that we are saved by works. Do me the courtesy of properly representing my position when you attempt to refute it and I will offer a retraction. ...
    You know shepherdsword, the first part of what I'm quoting to RichardBurger...makes me feel like you are contradicting yourself... but I still understand, as the bible does say we are not saved by works, but of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6) but you are right, our salvation in Christ does produce works when we put our trust on Him and Him only.On top of James 2... where it clearly says faith without works is dead. I'm going to quote one of my favorite verse. [​IMG]John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
     
  11. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    19
    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 15 2009, 01:32 PM)
    richard James wrote to 12 scattered tribes he was the head of the Christian church in Jerusalem regueardless of your nit picking and what you say James was a Christian and taught a complementry message to Paul there is no condradiction ...The Christian Apostels all taught Gods Word ... I know you need to make a condradiction here to support your view but there isnt one ..
    I don't believe it as you do. No where in my Bible do I find that Jesus and the Apostles taught the gospel of Grace.Religious people do not really see and understand the first meeting with James and Paul, the one where James did not put the Christians (Gentiles) under the Law of Moses. They just rationalize that James was saying the same thing to the Jews. But that is not true. Think about it.
     
  12. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    19
    A tragic story:When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him.I found that he had been talking to some Christians that were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinningand do good works. He wanted to stop sinning but he said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it in your mind. He wanted to know what I believed about it.I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves; to do for them what they could not do, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to trust that it has saved you.I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of the self-righteous does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. They don't go in themselves (because they still sin too) and they prevent others that would go in from doing so, all because they want to see themselves as better, and more righteous, than others.Matt 23:11-1311 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.(NKJ)If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer. Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    This topic is getting ridicoulos WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE ... OUR WORKS ARE OUR GARMENTS .... THE APOSTELS WERE ALL SAVED BY GRACE THEY WERE ALL GIVEN GODS FULL KNOWLEGDGE TO DO THEIR WORKS ..THAT IS PREACH THE GOSPEL AROUND THE WORLD ... WE ARE TO WORK TO PLANT SEEDS ...STAY IN FAITH ... WALK IN THE WAY OF CHRIST WHO HIMSELF DID THE WORK OF HEALING AND TEACHING ECT ECT ECT. PAUL AND JAMES DO NOT CONTRADICT EACH OTHER THERE ARE NO MAJOR CONTRADICTIONS IN GODS WORDS ... WHEN WE ARE BAPTISED IN CHRISTS NAME WE BECOME A NEW MAN/PERSON WANTING (BECAUSE OF OUR LOVE FOR OUR FATHER) TO DO GOOD WORKS, TO PLANT SEEDS.. HELP OTHERS ... PREACH OF GODS LOVE FOR US ... HIS PLAN OF SALVATION GODS SAYS HE KNOWS OUR WORKS THERE IS WORKS WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THEM HOWEVER THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY DO NOT EXIST ANY ANY ONE WHO SAYS DIFFERENT IS A LIAR ....
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 17 2009, 12:38 PM)
    This topic is getting ridicoulos WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE ... OUR WORKS ARE OUR GARMENTS .... THE APOSTELS WERE ALL SAVED BY GRACE THEY WERE ALL GIVEN GODS FULL KNOWLEGDGE TO DO THEIR WORKS ..THAT IS PREACH THE GOSPEL AROUND THE WORLD ... WE ARE TO WORK TO PLANT SEEDS ...STAY IN FAITH ... WALK IN THE WAY OF CHRIST WHO HIMSELF DID THE WORK OF HEALING AND TEACHING ECT ECT ECT. PAUL AND JAMES DO NOT CONTRADICT EACH OTHER THERE ARE NO MAJOR CONTRADICTIONS IN GODS WORDS ... WHEN WE ARE BAPTISED IN CHRISTS NAME WE BECOME A NEW MAN/PERSON WANTING (BECAUSE OF OUR LOVE FOR OUR FATHER) TO DO GOOD WORKS, TO PLANT SEEDS.. HELP OTHERS ... PREACH OF GODS LOVE FOR US ... HIS PLAN OF SALVATION GODS SAYS HE KNOWS OUR WORKS THERE IS WORKS WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THEM HOWEVER THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY DO NOT EXIST ANY ANY ONE WHO SAYS DIFFERENT IS A LIAR ....
    To finish my post above about our worksII Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"All Scripture that is written in the Word of God was given by the Holy Spirit of God. Every word Not just what we chose to pick out to support a doctrine we have come to believe.... II Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."The only thing that is perfect about any man is the Holy Spirit that is within him. We all will fall short of God's Glory, even after we have been saved, and that is why we must daily go to our Father in repentance in Jesus name. We must work to stay in good favor .. We can do this in numerous ways for each has his own gift given by God to assit him ... Some may be planting seeds, some maybe counseling others,some have the ability to make other laugh, bring Joy ..some may show Gods glory in the music they produce, some God has given the work of raising Godly good children... Some to minister to the sick..or assist the poor .. Some the ability to hear with understanding Gods Wordsbeing saved by his grace and baptised in his name means we are New person our spirit has been awakened we want to use our God given gifts to his Glory ....These are our works that all we do is in his name. always with your mind and heart set on whats above not below .....Good Works are Not for our pleasure but for his we do them with a glad heart .
     
  15. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 17 2009, 10:26 PM)
    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 17 2009, 02:38 PM)
    This topic is getting ridicoulos WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE ... OUR WORKS ARE OUR GARMENTS .... THE APOSTELS WERE ALL SAVED BY GRACE THEY WERE ALL GIVEN GODS FULL KNOWLEGDGE TO DO THEIR WORKS ..THAT IS PREACH THE GOSPEL AROUND THE WORLD ... WE ARE TO WORK TO PLANT SEEDS ...STAY IN FAITH ... WALK IN THE WAY OF CHRIST WHO HIMSELF DID THE WORK OF HEALING AND TEACHING ECT ECT ECT. PAUL AND JAMES DO NOT CONTRADICT EACH OTHER THERE ARE NO MAJOR CONTRADICTIONS IN GODS WORDS ... WHEN WE ARE BAPTISED IN CHRISTS NAME WE BECOME A NEW MAN/PERSON WANTING (BECAUSE OF OUR LOVE FOR OUR FATHER) TO DO GOOD WORKS, TO PLANT SEEDS.. HELP OTHERS ... PREACH OF GODS LOVE FOR US ... HIS PLAN OF SALVATION GODS SAYS HE KNOWS OUR WORKS THERE IS WORKS WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THEM HOWEVER THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY DO NOT EXIST ANY ANY ONE WHO SAYS DIFFERENT IS A LIAR ....
    To finish my post above about our worksII Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"All Scripture that is written in the Word of God was given by the Holy Spirit of God. Every word Not just what we chose to pick out to support a doctrine we have come to believe.... II Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."The only thing that is perfect about any man is the Holy Spirit that is within him. We all will fall short of God's Glory, even after we have been saved, and that is why we must daily go to our Father in repentance in Jesus name. We must work to stay in good favor .. We can do this in numerous ways for each has his own gift given by God to assit him ... Some may be planting seeds, some maybe counseling others,some have the ability to make other laughsome may show Gods glory in the music they produce, some God has given the work of raising Godly good children... Some to minister to the sick..or assist the poor .. Some the ability to hear with understanding Gods Wordsbeing saved by his grace and baptised in his name means we are New person our spirit has been awakened we want to use our God given gifts to his Glory ....These are our works that all we do is in his name. always with your mind and heart set on what above not below .....Good Works are Not for our pleasure but for his we do them with a glad heart .Well here I go... we all fall short in the glory of God? Yes...Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;We are all saved by Grace? Yes... We are all saved by works? No and never will be.Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.What does grace enables us to do? WorkEphesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?We are baptized in Christ with the Holy Ghost? What? You didn't know... the bible says it. ... To become a new creature? Yes!Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:II Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
     
  16. shepherdsword

    shepherdsword New Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have learned from past experience when a person denies the scripture and presents some doctrine that is only philosophy then there isn't any need to discuss it further. I notice that Richard has not only failed to offer a meaningful rebuttal to the scriptures we have posted, he has also failed to present any to back up his position. This makes his doctrine one that comes from man and not God.nuff said
     
  17. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    19
    QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 18 2009, 04:36 AM)
    I have learned from past experience when a person denies the scripture and presents some doctrine that is only philosophy then there isn't any need to discuss it further. I notice that Richard has not only failed to offer a meaningful rebuttal to the scriptures we have posted, he has also failed to present any to back up his position. This makes his doctrine one that comes from man and not God.nuff said
    What a joke! I have never denied scripturers. What I have said is that some are not written to the Gentile church. Since you believe the scriptrures have you sold youir house yet? FOOLISHNESS! Have you put a snake up on a pole yet? Where is the Jewish Temple you go to? What kind of food do you eat? --- FOOLISHNESS!You should have noticed that you, and some others, have not offered ANY comments on the scriptures in my posts either. If I have to, shouldn't you? You people are amazingly blind.The doctrine that I preach “””IS””” in the Bible. But you just can't see it. It is true that there are none so blind as those that refuse to see. Now I realize you will say that to me too but it doesn't matter to me. My gospel was taught to me by the Holy Spirit through Paul’s writings.I preach the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. IT was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was not the gospel that Jesus and the Apostles taught to the Jews. It is a gospel of freedom in Christ but the religious are always trying to take that freedom away and preaching "DO THOSE GOOD WORKS OR YOUR FAITH IS DEAD." The Jews did it to Paul and some on this forum are doing the same to the children of God.What is telling is that you said nothing about the young man that killed himself. So much for your good works of compassion. But you could not because your conscience wouldn't let you. Why, because you know you are doing the same thing to others.You people are so intent on denigrating me you have no other focus. But I expect that from the religious.I am taking a break. I get tired of the posts about me, PERSONALLY and the condemnations of me. On most forums there is a rule against making derogative comments about posters. I see that does not apply here.Since I am opposed to the religious who make posts about works, the religious certainly have a vested interest in denigrating me. I take it up to a point and then have to take a rest. See you later.
     
  18. shepherdsword

    shepherdsword New Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am still waiting for you to post some scripture that backs your position. It would be nice if you would offer a rebuttal to the ones we posted as well.If you see a comment on how you have failed to do this as "derogatory" then there's a problem with your position. Perhaps it is so weak it can't withstand discussion?
     
  19. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    19
    QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 18 2009, 08:11 AM)
    I am still waiting for you to post some scripture that backs your position. It would be nice if you would offer a rebuttal to the ones we posted as well.If you see a comment on how you have failed to do this as "derogatory" then there's a problem with your position. Perhaps it is so weak it can't withstand discussion?
    You wait is over! Scriptures I have posted on this thread.Matt 6:1-4 Do Good to Please God1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. NKJVRom 14:1-134 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:"As I live, says the Lord,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. NKJVGal 2:16 "knowing that a man is ""not justified by the works"" of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from graceFor I [Paul] speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 11:13Paul's ministry and epistles are to the GentilesStand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4***It is not clear which James actually wrote the book of James. It could be one of two apostles named James (See Matthew 10:2,3) or the head of the Jewish church at Jerusalem, who was also named James (See Acts 15:13 & 21:18). Whichever James was the author, it is clear that he was bound by the agreement made in Acts 15, and recorded by Paul in Galatians 2; limiting his ministry to the believing remnant in Israel.And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Galatians 2:9***These two explanations of salvation are in conflict. What makes the disagreement between Paul and James even more perplexing is that both men point to Abraham as a validation of their teaching.James said: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2: 21,22 ------ Please note that according to scriptures Abram was accounted as righteous before God long before Isaac was even born. Yet James points to Abraham works many years after the birth of Isaac.Paul said: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:2,3 ------ Please note that Paul states that Abraham was accounted as righteous BEFORE Isaac was born.This difference is answered by understanding that James was describing the salvation requirements for his Jewish audience (the circumcision), while Paul was describing the salvation requirements for this age of God's grace which is both for the Gentile audience (the uncircumcision) and the Jews. They each point to Abraham as an example, but use different events from Abraham's life to support their teaching.Paul cites an event recorded in Genesis 15.***Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4:2,3Paul presents prayer as a way to maintain spiritual stability in our lives regardless of the physical circumstances in which we may find ourselves.Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6,7**Rom 4:1-6 (in context)4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJVI Jn 5:4-5 (NKJ)4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 Cor 6:11-12 (NKJ)11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.My comment: The Jews were teaching the gospel of the kingdom. That is that the “”kingdom was at hand.”” Jesus was there to set up the kingdom that was promised to the Jews. --- But the Jews refuse to accept Him as their king and Jesus could not set up the kingdom. The Apostles had about 40 years to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their king but they never did (see the parable about the fig tree in Luke 13:7-9). --- So God turned to the Gentiles with a totally new gospel That, according to Paul, was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was a gospel of Grace. But religious men/women never will accept that to be the truth. They say that Jesus, the Apostle and Paul all taught the same gospel.****So, to you, I have never posted any scriptures. This proves how blind you are.Have a wonderful day.
     
  20. GeneralJ

    GeneralJ New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 18 2009, 07:41 AM)
    What a joke! I have never denied scripturers. What I have said is that some are not written to the Gentile church. Since you believe the scriptrures have you sold youir house yet? FOOLISHNESS! Have you put a snake up on a pole yet? Where is the Jewish Temple you go to? What kind of food do you eat? --- FOOLISHNESS!You should have noticed that you, and some others, have not offered ANY comments on the scriptures in my posts either. If I have to, shouldn't you? You people are amazingly blind.The doctrine that I preach “””IS””” in the Bible. But you just can't see it. It is true that there are none so blind as those that refuse to see. Now I realize you will say that to me too but it doesn't matter to me. My gospel was taught to me by the Holy Spirit through Paul’s writings.I preach the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. IT was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. It was not the gospel that Jesus and the Apostles taught to the Jews. It is a gospel of freedom in Christ but the religious are always trying to take that freedom away and preaching "DO THOSE GOOD WORKS OR YOUR FAITH IS DEAD." The Jews did it to Paul and some on this forum are doing the same to the children of God.What is telling is that you said nothing about the young man that killed himself. So much for your good works of compassion. But you could not because your conscience wouldn't let you. Why, because you know you are doing the same thing to others.You people are so intent on denigrating me you have no other focus. But I expect that from the religious.I am taking a break. I get tired of the posts about me, PERSONALLY and the condemnations of me. On most forums there is a rule against making derogative comments about posters. I see that does not apply here.Since I am opposed to the religious who make posts about works, the religious certainly have a vested interest in denigrating me. I take it up to a point and then have to take a rest. See you later.
    In my Bible there is only ONE gospel and doctrine...that is Christ crucified. Are there 2 messages, one for the jews and one for gentiles?I believe this scriptures says otherwise....1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.How can there be unity in the Body of Christ if there are differing Gospels? Isn't Christ the only way to God?Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
     
Loading...