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The Works Gospel

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RichardBurger, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    There is no contradiction and no problem here except in the minds of men and those who follow them Faith & Works: Paul vs. James Gregory KouklOne of the thorniest textual problems any Christian can face is the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. Is justification by faith, as Paul claims, or by works, as James seems to say? This problem actually has a very simple solution.For some Christians, one of the thorniest problems in the Bible is the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. It's enough to make anyone committed to complete inerrancy wither.In Romans, 5:1-2, Paul writes, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."James seems to say just the opposite, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." This appears to be a first rate contradiction.I have seen people twist themselves into theological pretzels trying to deal with this problem. There are a few unresolved conflicts in the Bible (according to some) , but this is not one of them. Justified by FaithIn Romans 4:1-5, Paul lays out his case for justification by faith. He goes back to the very beginning, citing Abraham as the archetype:What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.Paul makes two points here. First, if Abraham is justified by works, if salvation is his personal accomplishment, dependent on his effort alone, then he can brag about it. Second, any system of works makes God indebted to the one who qualifies. Salvation is not a gift, but a wage paid to the one who earns it.Then Paul quotes Genesis 15:6 to prove that neither is the case: "Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."Two TermsTwo different terms used to illustrate Abraham's salvation. The first is "reckoned," and the second is "justified." As you will see, these are two aspects of a single act of redemption.The word "reckoned" is a term that emphasizes an action God takes on behalf of poor sinners. To "reckon" means "to credit to the account of." God responds to our spiritual poverty with the abundant gift of righteousness. He places it into our empty bank accounts, under our names. In Paul's words, "Though [Jesus] was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich."This transaction took place early in Abraham's life. We read in Genesis 15:6, "Then he [Abraham] believed in the Lord and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." Paul reminds us that Abraham "grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness."From that time on God saw not Abraham's spiritual poverty, but his wealth. Abraham's moral bank account was rich with God's righteousness."Justification," our second term, is the result of this transaction. It means "to declare free of blame; to absolve." Because God reckons righteousness to us, He declares us free from guilt, absolved, and pardoned. Reckoning, the action, leads to justification, the result. Therefore, salvation is a result of justification, which comes by faith.Ever Heard of the Ten Commandments?Salvation must come from God and not ourselves for one very good reason: Our bank accounts are truly empty. Once, while I was discussing God's qualifications for heaven with a waitress, she said, "God will approve of me.""How do you know that?" I asked.The question was a pivotal one, but she'd never considered it. After a long, awkward silence she offered feebly, "Well, I don't take drugs.""That's good, but I think God is concerned about more than that," I countered. "Have you heard of the Ten Commandments?" I began to list them.1) Have you ever given allegiance to anything else above God in your life?2) Have you ever used any thing as an object of worship or veneration?3) Have you ever used God's name in a vain or vulgar fashion?4) Have you consistently honored God by worshipping Him on a regular basis?5) Have you ever disobeyed or dishonored your parents?6) Have you ever murdered anyone? (Jesus said in Matthew 5:22 that if you're merely angry with a brother, you violate this principle).7) Have you ever had sex with someone other than your spouse? (Jesus said that if you look upon someone and entertain the thought, you're guilty of sin here. )8) Have you ever taken something that was not yours?9) Have you ever told an untruth about someone else?10) Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?We'd only gotten through two before she began to wilt. "Now you're making me feel guilty," she complained. That's the point. We are guilty, each one of us. This is God's Law. These are God's requirements. Yet is there anyone who doesn't consistently violate every one?Any attempt to whittle down God's requirements to make them easier is doomed. The Pharisees tried this, asking Jesus which commandment was the foremost of all. Jesus answered, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Which of us does not violate each command hundreds of times a day?The Built-in DefeaterWe want to compare ourselves to other people, but that doesn't work. We may fancy ourselves law-abiding citizens, but the truth is we're a lot more like Hitler than like Jesus Christ, and His righteousness is the standard.Saved by works? The Law gives us no hope because it has a built-in defeater to any attempt at justification by works: The Law demands perfection."Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law" (Galatians 5:3).James agrees. He writes, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all" (James 2:10).In God's view, there are only two kinds of people: innocent and guilty. One violation of the Law, one sin, makes you guilty. This is enough to silence the most noble mortal: "...that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 3:19)."The Scripture," Paul concludes, "has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Galatians 3:22).There is only one hope: God's mercy. The Scripture is replete with this teaching. "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy" (Titus 3:5). "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Romans 10:6). "If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2:21).That's why Paul states clearly, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies [absolves] the ungodly, his faith is reckoned [credited] as righteousness" (Romans 4:5).But we still have a problem. Why does James contradict Paul by saying we're justified by works and not by faith alone? He even quotes Abraham for proof of his point, just as Paul did.One Word, Two MeaningsWhenever one encounters an apparent contradiction, it's good to keep in mind a basic rule: Always first explore the possibility of a reconciliation between the two. Not all statements that appear to contradict actually do.Take the two statements "Napoleon was a very big man" and "Napoleon was not a big man; he was a small man." At first glance, these two sentences appear contradictory. The word "big" is equivocal, though. It can mean two different things. Napoleon was a big man regarding his impact in history, but was small in physical size.Consult any dictionary and you'll discover that virtually every word has more than one meaning. The word "peace" could mean cessation of hostility between two parties. When a war is over and the fighting stops, there's peace. Romans 5:1 carries this sense: "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.""Peace" could also refer to peace of mind, a freedom from anxiety or worry. This is what Paul had in mind when he promised that, after prayer, "the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Proper interpretation of any passage depends on a clear understanding of which meaning is in view.The word "justify" is no different. It has two meanings, not just one. In addition to "absolve, declare free of blame," it can also mean "to demonstrate or prove to be just, right or valid; to show to be well founded." In the case of salvation, the first is the cause; the second is the effect.This second definition is what is usually in view when we use the word "justify" in English. "Justify your position," we say. We're asking for evidence; we want proof.The Bible frequently uses this sense of the word, too. Jesus taught that a person's true nature will be evident in his conduct:The good man out of his good treasure brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth what is evil. And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.Jesus teaches here that the man with good treasure brings forth good fruit, which "justifies" him. This external display demonstrates the quality of the man within. This is not justification in the sense of salvation. One's words don't absolve him (first definition). Rather, they bear testimony of the inner man (second definition).The CruxNow we face a key question. Which definition did James have in mind? How do we know when he uses the word "justify," that James is not referring to salvation--as Paul clearly is--but rather is pointing to the proof of salvation?This is remarkably simple to determine. The cause must come before the effect. Salvation must come first, before it can be evidenced in a changed life.When Paul makes his case for justification by faith, he cites the beginning of Abraham's walk with God in Genesis 15:5-6: "And He took him outside and said, 'Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.' Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."The justification James has in mind comes much later in Abraham's life, recorded in Genesis 22:12: "And he said, 'Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.'"Paul and James are cite two different times in Abraham's life, events separated by 25 years. They can't be referring to the same thing.The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.Abraham's faith was no passive, intellectual exercise. He proved his faith to God. The words of the text show this to be true: "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." God witnessed Abraham's faith first-hand, as it were. It was demonstrated. That's why James concludes, "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"James speaks to the man who is all talk and no action. His simple message is that true salvation always proves itself. That's why he asks, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" The apostle John echoes the same sentiment: "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him."One Coin, Two SidesJames and Paul go together. Like two sides of the same coin, they don't conflict with each other; they complement each other. Both teach us something vital. Paul looks at what goes on internally; James talks about the external results. Paul says, "We're saved by faith." James says, "This is what saving faith looks like." My own interpretive paraphrase captures the sense of it:(21) Consider Abraham for a minute (remember him, the father of true faith?). His life is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He demonstrated to everyone the content of his faith when he obeyed God by offering up Isaac on the altar. (22) His action was a clear, visible demonstration to us that his faith was not a bunch of words. To him, faith and works went hand in hand; they were two sides of the same coin. The exercise of one caused the other to grow. (23) Years before, God had declared Abraham righteous because of his faith ("And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" Genesis 15:6). Abraham's obedience regarding Isaac was visible proof that God's earlier declaration of his faith was accurate and well deserved. Abraham's actions fulfilled God's word, demonstrating his friendship with God. The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4-8:But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.Christians need "justification" plus "justification." Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It's not saving faith. This is a transcript of a commentary from the radio show "Stand to Reason," with Gregory Koukl. [url="http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5719]http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5719[/url]
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 09:21 PM)
    James vs. PaulWe have entitled this article "James vs. Paul". However, the conflict between James and Paul is not really a conflict at all. Each man gave the instructions that God intended for the particular group of people to whom they ministered. In order to understand and appreciate that fact, we must rightly divide the Word of Truth.THE PROBLEM:James 2:24 You see then that a man is ""justified by works,"" and ""not by faith only.""But Paul said:Gal 2:16 "knowing that a man is ""not justified by the works"" of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.There is no way to harmonize or blend the two statements above. Nor is there any reason to want to. Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.THE STUDY:Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15 Rightly dividing the Word of Truth explains, clearly and simply, many of the seeming contradictions in God's Word. This is nowhere more evident than when comparing the writings of James with those of Paul. In several very critical areas, James and Paul give diametrically opposed instruction. Without an understanding of the Biblical principles of right division, we have no hope of obeying the Word of God because obeying one writer causes us to disobey another.The Book of Straw:"The Epistle of Straw" is a phrase the great reformer Martin Luther is said to have used in reference to the book of James. As Luther studied Paul's writings, especially the book of Romans, he came to understand the revolutionary truth of justification by grace through faith without the works of the law. He was unable to reconcile this seeming contradiction to James' writings. As a result he began to question whether or not the book of James even belonged in the canon of Scripture.The difficulties Martin Luther experienced are compounded as we compare Paul and James more closely. Not only about salvation do Paul and James give different instruction, but they also disagree in their teachings about prayer and healing. What do we do with these differing teachings? Is James really an "Epistle of Straw" that has no place in the canon of Scripture?In order to understand these seeming contradictions, we must understand some details about the authors of the books and the very different ministries to which God had called them.Paul was called by God to be the Apostle of the Gentiles.For I [Paul] speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 11:13Paul's ministry and epistles are to the Gentiles.Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Romans 16:3,4Paul's message is a message of freedom from the bondage of the law.Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4It is not clear which James actually wrote the book of James. It could be one of two apostles named James (See Matthew 10:2,3) or the head of the Jewish church at Jerusalem, who was also named James (See Acts 15:13 & 21:18). Whichever James was the author, it is clear that he was bound by the agreement made in Acts 15, and recorded by Paul in Galatians 2; limiting his ministry to the believing remnant in Israel.And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Galatians 2:9The book of James is specifically addressed to members of the nation of Israel.James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. James 1:1The people to whom James wrote were still living under the commandments and ordinances of the law.These two men, James and Paul, and the people to whom they wrote are all very dissimilar. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth properly interprets each man's writings without changing or eliminating either. While differing on several matters, both keep within the context of the people they ministered to, and the purpose of their ministry.James vs. Paul; SalvationThe most serious area of disagreement between James and Paul is their explanation of salvation. James indicates that good works must be added to faith to produce salvation.Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:17-20Paul gives a different explanation of salvation. Paul not only teaches that works are unnecessary for salvation, he specifically excludes works from the salvation process.Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4,5These two explanations of salvation are in conflict. What makes the disagreement between Paul and James even more perplexing is that both men point to Abraham as a validation of their teaching.James said: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2: 21,22 ------ Please note that according to scriptures Abram was accounted as righteous before God long before Isaac was even born. Yet James points to Abraham works many years after the birth of Isaac.Paul said: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:2,3 ------ Please note that Paul states that Abraham was accounted as righteous BEFORE Isaac was born.This difference is answered by understanding that James was describing the salvation requirements for his Jewish audience (the circumcision), while Paul was describing the salvation requirements for this age of God's grace which is both for the Gentile audience (the uncircumcision) and the Jews. They each point to Abraham as an example, but use different events from Abraham's life to support their teaching.Paul cites an event recorded in Genesis 15.And he [God] brought him [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5,6 ---- This was before Isaac was born.James cites an event recorded in Genesis 22. --- This happened many years after Isaac was born.And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:1,2Paul points to a time when Abraham's faith required him to do nothing. He was simply to wait for the promised seed. In fact, when Abraham tried to help God's plan along, the results were disastrous. (See Genesis 16) James, on the other hand, points to a time when Abraham's faith required him to do something. He had to physically take his son into Moriah and offer him as a sacrifice to the Lord. The principle here is if God says "don't do," then faith doesn't do. --- If God says "do," then faith does. To the circumcision God said "do." To the uncircumcision, he said, "don't do." This is why Paul used two different terms when describing the faith of the circumcision and the uncircumcision.Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:29,30Is there a difference between "by faith" and "through faith?"It is significant that between the two events referred to above, another very important event took place in Abraham's life. In Genesis 17, God instituted circumcision as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul uses Abraham in uncircumcision as an example of justification "through faith" without the works of the law. --- James uses Abraham in circumcision as an example of justification "by faith" plus the works of the law. Paul discusses and explains this dual fatherhood of Abraham in detail in the fourth chapter of Romans.When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, the conflict between James and Paul concerning salvation is easily resolved.James vs. Paul; PrayerJames and Paul also disagree on prayer. James presents prayer as a way to receive physical blessing from God if you obey the law and ask for the proper things.Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4:2,3Paul presents prayer as a way to maintain spiritual stability in our lives regardless of the physical circumstances in which we may find ourselves.Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6,7James indicates that God will give his readers the desires of their hearts as long as those desires are in keeping with God's law. Paul, on the other hand, indicates that whatever the desires of our hearts are, God's response is always the same, peace. The response that Paul promises involves provision for our hearts and minds, not our bodies. It is not a promise of physical provision as was James' promise to Israel.The examples of prayer used by James and Paul illustrate the differences in their teachings on the issue.Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. James 5:17,18A detailed study of the example given by James shows what is in accord with the principles of the law. Elijah was prophesying during the reign of wicked King Ahab. (See I Kings 16:30-33) In response to the king's wickedness, God shut up the windows of heaven just as he had promised in the law. (See Deuteronomy 28:23,24) James presents an example of prayer in keeping with God's instruction to Israel under the law.Paul's teaching on prayer is best illustrated by an example from his own life.And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. II Corinthians 12:7-9As Paul prayed about his thorn in the flesh, nothing about his physical circumstance changed. The only thing that changed was Paul's reaction to the circumstance. He changed from desiring the thorn to be taken away to glorying in it. His prayer had changed his heart and mind. This is the prayer promise God gives to the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace.Rightly dividing the Word of Truth resolves the conflict between James’ and Paul's instructions on prayer.James vs. Paul; HealingThe final area of difference in the teaching of James and Paul is healing. James gives specific instruction about how to receive healing.Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. James 5:14,15As with all of James' instructions, his pattern for healing is in perfect keeping with the instructions given to Israel in the Law of Moses. Below is God's instruction in the law concerning the healing of leprosy.And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand: And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD: And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering: And the remnant of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall pour upon the head of him that is to be cleansed: and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD. Leviticus 14:15-18The pattern of anointing with oil by the spiritual leadership is the same as described by James. Not only is the leper's disease healed, but also atonement is made for his sin. James' instructions about healing also promised that the sins of the person healed would be forgiven when God raised him up.A key passage in Paul's epistles about healing is II Corinthians 12 quoted earlier. In that passage Paul did none of the things that James instructs. He did not call for the elders of the church, he was not anointed with oil, and he was not raised up. Not only did Paul not follow the instruction of James for himself, he also did not recommend it to other members of the Body of Christ.When Timothy suffered an infirmity in the flesh, Paul recommended medicine.Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. I Timothy 5:23When Trophimus, one of Paul's ministry partners, was sick, no anointing or prayer for healing was ordered. Paul was forced to go on without him.Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. II Timothy 4:20God gives no promise of physical healing for the Body of Christ through Paul as He did for Israel through James. In fact, Paul tells us that we must wait for the redemption of our bodies. (See Romans 8:22-25)When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, the conflict between Jame's and Paul's instructions concerning healing is easily resolved.This study is a production of: Grace Alive MinistriesPO Box 151Glasgow, PA 16644Author: Tracy Plessinger
    If Paul and James disagree with each other... then to your conclusion God is a liar. And the Bible is not God's Words. And what are we doing reading a book that 's nothing but men words? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]To put all together... All I see is your complete lack in both in the knowledge of God's Words and His power that He shall do... It's a shame that you would rather want your religion over Christ any day.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well what we have here is two opposing views one causes conflict and contradiction and makes the Apostel James a liar the other makes them complement each other .. James and Paul had two differnt missions one was to preach the Word to gentile one to preach to the jews scattered... Lets Look at James ... The author of this epistle (letter) is James, also called James The Just, who is thought to be the brother of Jesus Christ (Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3). James was not a believer (John 7:3-5) until after the resurrection (Acts 1:14, 1 Corinthians 15:7, Galatians 1:19). He became the head of the Jerusalem church, and is mentioned first as a pillar of the Church (Galatians 2:9). Date of Writing: The Book of James is probably the oldest book of the New Testament, written perhaps as early as A.D. 45, before the first council of Jerusalem in A.D. 50. James was martyred in approximately 62 A.D. Purpose of Writing: Some think that this epistle was written in response to an overzealous interpretation of Paul’s teaching that was never intended. This extreme view, called antinomianism, held that through faith in Christ one is completely free from all Old Testament law, all legalism, all secular law, and all the morality of a society.As we see this is a mans belief not the Word Christ said he came not to change one iota of the Law ...is the penalty paid/fullfilled in by Christ blood ....yes of course but the Law is not changedSo we see James was the head of the Christian Church in Jerusalem he was called The Just He was marytered for Christ yet we would reduce him to liar according to some mens twisted views Martin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” failed to recognize this very important context. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on our discourse and justification amongst each other. James was writing to Jews to encourage them in their continued growth in this new Christian faith. James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-23. So we see here they were teaching two sides of the same thing so there is no contradiction and we know that there are no major contrdictions in Gods Word if we see one it is the readers misunderstanding for Gods Word is Holy and perfect if one is forced to discredit an Apostel and find contradictions in Gods Word to make it fit their belief ... That in itself should raise a red flag that the doctrine is false reguardless of what any man says
     
  4. thisistheendtimes

    thisistheendtimes New Member

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    Ezekiel 36:27 RSV "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances".I see nothing at all that could mean that "works" ever meant anything similar to "grace". Also, everything in the O.T. was said to and meant for Israelites, Hebrews, Jews, and ancient cultures (they are not for the [modern day] CHRISTIAN). They are just as applicable/relevant to the practices and beliefs of modern day Christians as many of the things in the N.T. that were said to ancient cultures that were learning a new way of "God devotion". "New Testament" (new covenant) Christianity is based on Jesus's glorification and the giving of the spirit...John 7:39"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified"Now, Jesus is the whole fullness of God...Colossians 2:9"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily"....and is the ONLY spiritual authority in the whole universe (NOT the O.T. or any part of scripture...Matthew 28:18 Jesus said"All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me".We should "live by" every word that PRESENTLY proceeds from the mouth of God ("sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17), not the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1). We should learn the "principles" of Godly behavior/character (Hebrews 5:12) from the "word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) as all "babes in Christ" must learn (1 Corin. 3:1). The word of truth is good for TRAINING in righteousness (self discipline repentance)...2 Timothy 3:16"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". Titus 2:12 "training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions"....and should not be INTERPRETED to mean something else, but UNDERSTOOD "as is"... Ephesians 5:17"Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is".Not to be factious, but it would be unreasonable to think that God or the apostles, etc. needed a new "improved/deluxe" name for "Jesus devotion" in Antioch (our understanding of Godly practices and beliefs has been "Romanized").Acts 11:26"and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians". The word "grace" refers to GOD'S gracious gifts to all of humanity (creation, salvation, His spirit). No matter how gracious we are in helping our fellow human being, we cannot match HIS "grace" (and we should not attempt to compete with God).Many Christians simply put on a "personality" of being "Godly", but their NATURE/character is not "good and right and true" (Ephesians 5:8 and 9). Only if we walk as "children of light" can we have the guarantee of salvation (eternal life, Ephesians 1:14). Jesus only made salvation AVAILABLE to everyone on earth, but having a spirit/character of holiness (good and right and true) with genuine humility will also purify our conscience (Hebrews 9:14).Acts 10:34 in the KJV accurately expresses that God is no respecter of personALITIES, He only has regard for a person's true NATURE/character...http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=KJV&sf=5I consider the RSV to be the most accurate. Many modern versions of scripture have been "watered down" because they were made to be politically correct for marketing purposes. Even the KJV was made for the Church of England and has the Jews celebrating EASTER instead of PASSOVER...Acts 12:4"intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people".Of course a person with a genuinely Godlike nature can, at times, be beneficial to someone who is sincerly in need and will not abuse our helpfulness (we must be "wise as serpents"), but we must NEVER EVER set another foundation with "works" (self effort). The Lord cautions us against "self abasement" (Colossians 2:18) firstly that we do not become someone's "doormat"/patsy, but also that we can share who we truly are with "I am who I am" (the Father's "FOREVER" name, Exodus 3:14) and truly relate to and identify with Him. God wants us to have a 2 way relationship with Him (He "yearns jealously", James 4:5). The words "Jehovah" and "Elohim" are PLURAL in Hebrew (referring to their "gods"). It is "I am who I am" who sent JESUS.Self "works" (like many of man's teachings) is an EVIL doctrine. Develop eyes to see and ears to hear and learn the "depths of God" (1 Corin. 2:10) in order to "walk by the spirit" (Galatians 5:16) because our faith should be borne out of LOVE ("the GREATEST of these", 1 Corin. 13:13, God is LOVE).Forsake mammon and have a "more excellent" devotion (1 Corin. 12:31) with "Abba Father" (not as a slave to a MASTER/taskmaster) and be a "friend of God" (not slave/servant, James 2:23).http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (thisistheendtimes @ Feb 15 2009, 01:14 AM)
    Ezekiel 36:27 RSV "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances".I see nothing at all that could mean that "works" ever meant anything similar to "grace". Also, everything in the O.T. was said to and meant for Israelites, Hebrews, Jews, and ancient cultures (they are not for the [modern day] CHRISTIAN). They are just as applicable/relevant to the practices and beliefs of modern day Christians as many of the things in the N.T. that were said to ancient cultures that were learning a new way of "God devotion". "New Testament" (new covenant) Christianity is based on Jesus's glorification and the giving of the spirit...John 7:39"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified"Now, Jesus is the whole fullness of God...Colossians 2:9"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily"....and is the ONLY spiritual authority in the whole universe (NOT the O.T. or any part of scripture...Matthew 28:18 Jesus said"All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me".We should "live by" every word that PRESENTLY proceeds from the mouth of God ("sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17), not the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1). We should learn the "principles" of Godly behavior/character (Hebrews 5:12) from the "word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) as all "babes in Christ" must learn (1 Corin. 3:1). The word of truth is good for TRAINING in righteousness (self discipline repentance)...2 Timothy 3:16"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". Titus 2:12 "training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions"....and should not be INTERPRETED to mean something else, but UNDERSTOOD "as is"... Ephesians 5:17"Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is".Not to be factious, but it would be unreasonable to think that God or the apostles, etc. needed a new "improved/deluxe" name for "Jesus devotion" in Antioch (our understanding of Godly practices and beliefs has been "Romanized").Acts 11:26"and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians". The word "grace" refers to GOD'S gracious gifts to all of humanity (creation, salvation, His spirit). No matter how gracious we are in helping our fellow human being, we cannot match HIS "grace" (and we should not attempt to compete with God).Many Christians simply put on a "personality" of being "Godly", but their NATURE/character is not "good and right and true" (Ephesians 5:8 and 9). Only if we walk as "children of light" can we have the guarantee of salvation (eternal life, Ephesians 1:14). Jesus only made salvation AVAILABLE to everyone on earth, but having a spirit/character of holiness (good and right and true) with genuine humility will also purify our conscience (Hebrews 9:14).Acts 10:34 in the KJV accurately expresses that God is no respecter of personALITIES, He only has regard for a person's true NATURE/character...http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=KJV&sf=5I consider the RSV to be the most accurate. Many modern versions of scripture have been "watered down" because they were made to be politically correct for marketing purposes. Even the KJV was made for the Church of England and has the Jews celebrating EASTER instead of PASSOVER...Acts 12:4"intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people".Of course a person with a genuinely Godlike nature can, at times, be beneficial to someone who is sincerly in need and will not abuse our helpfulness (we must be "wise as serpents"), but we must NEVER EVER set another foundation with "works" (self effort). The Lord cautions us against "self abasement" (Colossians 2:18) firstly that we do not become someone's "doormat"/patsy, but also that we can share who we truly are with "I am who I am" (the Father's "FOREVER" name, Exodus 3:14) and truly relate to and identify with Him. God wants us to have a 2 way relationship with Him (He "yearns jealously", James 4:5). The words "Jehovah" and "Elohim" are PLURAL in Hebrew (referring to their "gods"). It is "I am who I am" who sent JESUS.Self "works" (like many of man's teachings) is an EVIL doctrine. Develop eyes to see and ears to hear and learn the "depths of God" (1 Corin. 2:10) in order to "walk by the spirit" (Galatians 5:16) because our faith should be borne out of LOVE ("the GREATEST of these", 1 Corin. 13:13, God is LOVE).Forsake mammon and have a "more excellent" devotion (1 Corin. 12:31) with "Abba Father" (not as a slave to a MASTER/taskmaster) and be a "friend of God" (not slave/servant, James 2:23).http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5
    Actually Christianity, while yes, Christ is the Saviour of the world... Christianity is based on the WHOLE bible... not just parts of it. Both the entire Old Testament and the New Testament... and is for the modern day Christians as well...
     
  6. thisistheendtimes

    thisistheendtimes New Member

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    And many will not endure/entertain/listen to sound doctrine because "they REFUSED to love the truth AND SO BE SAVED" (2 Thessalonians 2:10).God had full control of everything that went into scripture. Nothing (no events or words) in scripture are happenstance (of random occurrence). All events happened as they were supposed to so that the words would be recorded and available for us to someday learn from IF we so choose. God had Pilate ask Jesus "What is TRUTH?" so that IF a person chose to LEARN more, they could learn the significance of TRUTH in Godly behavior (worship "in TRUTH" and in "spirit"). Pilate (not known to be a philosopher) meant that Jesus is going to be crucified because mankind cares nothing about OBJECTIVE/absolute truth and that Jesus will be crucified because of mankind's preference for SUBJECTIVE truth (biased truth when the crowds rioted)...but if you insist on glorifying yourself with "works" (subjective truth), that is your freewill right (and soul).In John 14:6, Jesus told us 3 things...that He is "THE WAY" and that He is all OBJECTIVE truth, and that He is true "life" (everlasting life starts now).
     
  7. smokey the dog

    smokey the dog New Member

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    I find it interesting in this thread that touches on faith and works that I have not seen any references to Paul's letter to the Galatians. If there are any more definitive arguments against works I don't know where they are.Gal 2:16-19 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Christina said: "Well what we have here is two opposing views one causes conflict and contradiction and makes the Apostel James a liar the other makes them complement each other .. James and Paul had two differnt missions one was to preach the Word to gentile one to preach to the jews scattered"NO NO< NO< NO< obviously you did not really read what the article said>Each man gave the instructions that God intended for the particular group of people to whom they ministered. In order to understand and appreciate that fact, we must rightly divide the Word of Truth. --- I never said that ether one of them was a liar. That is out of your own mine and it is because you are so blinded to the truth. The writer of the book of Jame CLEARLY said who he was writing to. But you refuse to accept that.But religious people use his writing to enslave the children of God to a works gospel. They have a vested interest in making James and Paul say the same thing. They want to establish their own works so they can boast.
     
  9. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    QUOTE (smokey the dog @ Feb 15 2009, 05:48 AM)
    I find it interesting in this thread that touches on faith and works that I have not seen any references to Paul's letter to the Galatians. If there are any more definitive arguments against works I don't know where they are.Gal 2:16-19 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    The religious do not acccept what Paul wrote to the grace church. They rationalize that the two were both saying the same thing when they know they were not. It is self deception. The religious will always want to take away the liberty the the children of God have "in Christ."
     
  10. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Topics merged, one thread is more than enough on the same topic.
     
  11. thisistheendtimes

    thisistheendtimes New Member

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    In those days, when the people of those ancient cultures heard about Jesus and wanted to make the transition from the old worship of God (old covenant)to the new worship of God (new covenant), it was necessary to assemble/gather in BUILDINGS/"worship centers", BUT, that was then, this is now.Paul also said...Acts 17:24"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in SHRINES made by man..."."Shrines" means "structures"/buildings/worship centers. Today, there should not be "worship centers" or "church" buildings. There should be no public "prayer"/worship. We should not worship with "lips"/sound. Jesus gave instructions about prayer (for the modern/new Christian)...Matthew 6:5"And when you pray, you MUST NOT be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, THEY HAVE RECEIVED THEIR REWARD". Matthew 6:6 "But when you pray, GO INTO YOUR ROOM AND SHUT THE DOOR and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret WILL REWARD YOU" [with the TRUTH about Him]. Sincerity is everything. Matthew 6:1 is a direct WARNING against showing/practicing your piety/devotional worship in PUBLIC.All throughout scripture, we are told (not only in the N.T.) about those who "worship with their lips". Isaiah 29:13 is a little more explanatory about "sound"..."Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips".The PRINCIPLE (dichotomy) of sincerity vs. hypocrisy is how God wants us to know wisdom (Hebrews 5:12 "principles"). Another thing explained in this verse is that we should NOT fear God (NO MATTER WHAT is commonly read or taught in scripture). Many GOOD "Christians" will HATE hearing that we should not fear God (it DOES say all throughout scripture that we SHOULD fear God), but I've made the choice NOT to fear Him. An unbeliever with a reprobate mind should learn to fear not knowing God (it is the BEGINNING of wisdom), but once we come to know Him, our love should be made perfect...1 John 4:18"perfect love casts out fear" (God is not a punisher).It is often thought by the great "intelligentsia"/scholars of this world that God actually tells those who read scripture that we MUST love Him (as though LOVE can be legislated and made a law/rule). LOVE can only be freely given. Mark 12:30 tells us that we should LEAVE NO ROOM FOR FEAR..."with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength".Many, many Billions who take pride in being scholars and churchgoers will absolutely insist on continuing to fear God (making excuse after excuse, PRIDE has gotten the better of them). Fearing what you love does not even make sense, but because we are taught "self abasement" (Colossians 2:18), we are dehumanized and can no longer think properly as human beings...Romans 12:2"be transformed by the renewal of the MIND".We must use common sense instead of "the book" for a PERSONAL relationship. Neither should we have an IDENTICAL relationship (the same as each other).Romans 14:22"The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God..."....so that God may be everything to each one of us...1 Corinthians 15:28"that God may be everything to every one." LOVE God, not the bible.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    richard James wrote to 12 scattered tribes he was the head of the Christian church in Jerusalem regueardless of your nit picking and what you say James was a Christian and taught a complementry message to Paul there is no condradiction ...The Christian Apostels all taught Gods Word ... I know you need to make a condradiction here to support your view but there isnt one ..
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (smokey the dog @ Feb 15 2009, 04:48 AM)
    I find it interesting in this thread that touches on faith and works that I have not seen any references to Paul's letter to the Galatians. If there are any more definitive arguments against works I don't know where they are.Gal 2:16-19 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    Smokey, the definition of works according to Paul is that we are not require to follow some stuff... like animal sacrifices, not required to Mosaic Law, not required to be circumcised, the statute, ordinances... These are all fulfilled in Christ. We are commanded to love God with all of our heart, mind, strength and soul. Love our neighbors, follow the Ten Commandments.James is saying something different in the same thing. Paul and James do not contradict each other as there is no contradictions in God's Words. They agreed with each other.I hope I had shed some light for you Smokey.
     
  14. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 15 2009, 12:29 AM)
    There is no contradiction and no problem here except in the minds of men and those who follow them Faith & Works: Paul vs. James Gregory KouklChristians need "justification" plus "justification." Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It's not saving faith. This is a transcript of a commentary from the radio show "Stand to Reason," with Gregory Koukl. http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5719
    I read your article and I find it to be based on an assumption that the word justification has two meanings. It is long on rhetoric and short on scriptures. It totally depend on persuading others that the word "justification" has two meanings. Take that away and it says nothing.My article brings out three differences between Paul and James and you did not seem to want to make a comment on them.You conclusion is based on your assumption that God does not know whether a child of God has faith in Him or not. I certainly don't believe that.Rom 4:1-6 (in context)4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJVTrue and sincere faith, trust, confidence, and hope IN God's work on the cross is NEVER dead. We are saved and kept by God's power, not our own. We have overcome the world by our faith in what God has done. How can that be considered dead faith? But, because of James' letter to the Jews (not the grace Church), men throw the words "dead faith" around a lot. Religious men refuse to see that James's was not writing to the grace church. Even though James said who he was writing to in James 1:1 they refuse to believe it. Those who actively trust in God's work on the cross are placing their eternal life on the work of God. They are completely trusting in God's promise, in Christ, to save and keep them. As long as their faith is in God's work on the cross their faith is never dead.Person #1. Making 140,000 a year and has extra money to give to Charities.Has only one job and has the time to do Charitable works.Has lots of works to make sure his faith is not dead and thinks he is a good Christian.(see Luke 18:10-14)Person #2. Making 45,000 a year and working two jobs has no money to part with.Since he/she is working two jobs they have no time to do Charitable works and very little to socialize. -- The person ""worries"" that they are not doing enough works to make sure their faith is not dead and worries that their faith is dead.Person #3. Living on a social security check has no spare money to give.Has no money for a car and a car's expense to travel and do Charitable works.""Worries"" that he/she is not doing enough to make sure their faith is not dead and they feel they are not a good Christian. (my mother was like this)Note Person #3 is very susceptible to TV preachers saying they have to step out in faith and send them money. They use the words written by James to the Jews to coerce money out of others.But religious men/women don't care about those in #2 and #3. What does it mater that religious people con others.Christina, you just refuse to see that the gospel of Grace was not given until it was given to Paul. Paul said it was hidden in God and revealed to Him. But religious people will not hear Paul. To you, and the religious, it was just the same gospel Jesus and the Apostles taught. It is a fact that the Law was never rescinded by Jesus or the Apostles. It is also a fact that the law was rescinded in the gospel of Grace given to Paul.QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 15 2009, 01:32 PM)
    richard James wrote to 12 scattered tribes he was the head of the Christian church in Jerusalem regueardless of your nit picking and what you say James was a Christian and taught a complementry message to Paul there is no condradiction ...The Christian Apostels all taught Gods Word ... I know you need to make a condradiction here to support your view but there isnt one ..
    More assumptions. He was head of the Jewish church that believed Jesus was their Messiah and wer zealous of the Law. They believed that the Jew was still obligated to keep the Law (see Acts 21). In Acts 21 we see that the Jewish people that believed Jesus was the Messiah were still zealous of the Law. Since the Jews got upset with what Paul was teaching it is obvious that James and the Elders were not teaching the same thing. But I have said this before and you will not believe it.The children of God were called Christians in the Gentile Churches out in the greater Gentile world. Not in Jerusalem
     
  15. thisistheendtimes

    thisistheendtimes New Member

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    God is not an imperialist. Salvation is a FREE gift (and nothing is expected in return).God is not deficient in the ability to express Himself properly in scripture. When He says "FREE", He means FREE. If you'd like to tell God that you don't trust Him when He says that salvation is a FREE gift, do so (and see how that goes, this is VERY serious). There is nothing more sad, tragic, and treacherous than mistrusting The Lord. Humanity's strong delusion is well deserved by humanity because of the refusal to love Him and trust Him (God only PROVIDED the possibility of a strong delusion, but it is really self-imposed). The word "faith" refers to the ability to believe something (God is not impressed by an ABILITY).The book of Job was not a story about faith, it was a love story. Job could not have remained true to God only because of faith, it was LOVE that kept Job steadfast. Job said...Job 13:15"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him...". (you trust only who you LOVE).We are to have more than one kind of "faith" ("faith FOR faith", Romans 1:17).In Hebrews 11:6, a person who would "draw near" ("draw near" because of LOVE for Him) to God must...1) believe that God exists (faith #1).AND2) have TRUSTING faith in His loving kindness that He "rewards".Believe The Lord when He says "FREE", He is very articulate in scripture (says what He means and means what He says). Salvation is a FREE gift and no works are expected in return, not even love for Him is expected in return (but you MAY love Him if you'd like!!, He will not be displeased with LOVE FOR HIM).===================Christianity has always had it's own terminology and nomenclature (group "lingo", jargon) that limits our expression of thoughts (and it also limits our understanding, too, Jargonspeak is jargonthink). I have always heard and read many statements about God where no scripture verses were given/presented to back up the statement and one's own understanding of the statement (no desire to speak in 'no uncertain terms' and COMMUNICATE truth, no true "love" for the truth...AND SO BE SAVED). This blatant disregard for scripture that was given by our Lord has incurred the "strong delusion" (self-imposed??,...yes). Nurturing our egos with "Jargonspeak" as though we possess esoteric knowledge has not yielded a "good" reward.Disregarding scripture so we can freely make any statement we want has not yielded a "good" reward.Mistrusting The Lord as though He is an imperialist (as WE give gifts) has not yielded a "good" reward....yet it is thought/believed that the "strong delusion" is not well deserved by humanity/christianity.A person who has a "good and right and true" spirit/character can accept Jesus as savior so that God's spirit can "indwell" (compatible natures). The ONLY "works" that need be a concern to us is the "works" that God did (creation was a very gracious "work", "purification of the flesh"/salvation was a very gracious "work", and the giving of His spirit to "indwell" was a very gracious "work"). The "works of God" were done GRACIOUSLY, not imperialistically, but our understanding of "grace" is according to jargon, mistrust/fear, and ego, not LOVE."god of confusion" is a very appropriate name for satan, but is 666 humanity (human nature) complicit with satan's plan? We are very comfortable blaming evil on satan, but who causes the wars, corruption, hatred/resentment, etc.?"That there is a devil, there is no doubt, but is he within us or is he without?" (from "Ten Little Indians" movie).That there is a God there is no doubt,..........................................................................
     
  16. shepherdsword

    shepherdsword New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 14 2009, 03:29 PM)
    Richard You make a religion out of "Anti Works "you are so blinded by this false religios belief you can not see Gods word. Were are the Apostels saved ? What was the command to them their WORK???????????? to "preach the gospel around the world" upon becoming a new man in Christ we are to do Christs work ..Just as the apostels and others were commanded We are to keep the commandments learn the Word, comfort the sick, help the poor, these are all the works God expects his children to want to do in his name out of love not duty... The same way a husband or wife has to do certain things (work) to make a marriage succesful, or a child and parent has to do have a happy sucessful family ... Your anti works religion is not Biblical simple as that.
    I have yet to see a single person that has this position to have a real walk with Jesus. I am not saying they do not exist I am just saying I haven't meet one yet.I find that when you have a position like this it is because you are holding on to some secret sin in your life that you refuse to repent from. You then justify this lack of repentance by defining it as a "work" When you walk in the Spirit you fulfill the righteousness of the law. This occurs by a simple devotion and abiding in Christ that draws the grace an power from Jesus to overcome sin. I enjoy the consensus that this forum has on the issue (OP excluded)I just want to reiterate some verses that has already been brought up:James 2:4Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 6For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.This is clear Apostolic correction to the way Paul's teachings had been wrested like Peter stated here:2Peter16As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. We can see from Peter's statement that some had already perverted the definition of biblical grace,which is in essence,an enabling power to fulfill the will of God. James went so far as to say that works are the ESSENCE and core of faith just as the spirit is of the body. This clarification shows clearly that while we are not saved by works but by faith ,the faith we have will ALWAYS produce works. If your faith doesn't produce works it will not produce salvation either.This because it is shown to dead(thanotos) or separated from God. This false "faith" will not be validated by Jesus. Those that teach otherwise have another "Gospel" and another "Jesus". They will not hear "well done,my good and FAITHful servant" on the day of judgement.
     
  17. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    True faith is never dead! By Richard Burger, November 19, 2007True and sincere faith, trust, confidence, and hope IN God's work on the cross is NEVER dead. We are saved and kept by God's power, not our own. We have overcome the world by our faith in what God has done. How can that be considered dead faith? But, because of James' letter to the Jews (not the grace Church), men throw the words "dead faith" around a lot. Religious men refuse to see that James's was not writing to the grace church. Even though James said who he was writing to in James 1:1 they refuse to believe it. Those who actively trust in God's work on the cross are placing their eternal life on the work of God. They are completely trusting in God's promise, in Christ, to save and keep them. Since their faith is in God's work on the cross their faith is never dead.I Jn 5:4-5 (NKJ)4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? Keeping your faith in Jesus and His work on the cross is not easy when all of the religious people around you, using James' writing, are saying you must do good works by your own initiative/choice or your faith is dead. That you must take control by getting involved in good works to prove you have faith. Prove it to whom? Do men think that God does not know those that have placed their faith in His work on the cross; that God does not know who He has sealed with the Holy Spirit?It is not OUR works that we are to present to the world. It is God's work on the cross (the gospel of Jesus Christ). When I heard the message of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ I was not looking at the people, or the preacher, to see if they were good. It was totally between God (the Holy Spirit) and I. The Holy Spirit made me look into my own heart and made me realize that I could never be good (perfect) in the sight of God without His help. It is then that I realized just how important the work of Jesus on the cross really is; how much God loves us. I certainly did not consider the sin, or lack of sin, in other men to be a factor. As a matter of fact I saw that they sinned just like I did. What mattered was that I knew, in my heart, that I could never be sinless and that I needed God's love and grace in order to be acceptable to Him. He did the rest and I am set free "in Christ."1 Cor 6:11-12 (NKJ)11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.To be brought under the power of my/your sins is to think that I/you have sins that have not been paid for by what Jesus (God) did on the cross. However, some want you to think your faith is precariously based on works and is dead without them, and in doing so, make you doubt your faith.But religious people can never be set free because they think their salvation is based on what they do (thanks to James); that their faith is dead unless they do works. Then it becomes a question of how much good works can they do; how much is enough? --- Religion is all about what men/women do for God. --- But for the Child of God it is all about what God has done for them on the cross. They have placed there faith, trust, confidence and hope in Jesus' work on the cross and according to the Scriptures those who put their trust in the Lord will never be put to shame.
     
  18. GeneralJ

    GeneralJ New Member

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    Do we still sin? As the “elect” we do not sin willfully as Paul stated;Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.So there remains work to be done because we still wrestle against the corruption of our flesh. What is this “work?” Take a look at this scripture;Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.These “works/ fruits” are a witness of our true repentance. The “elect” are compelled to resist temptation and refrain from sin by the Spirit. These “temptations” are the many “afflictions” of the righteous, the “trying of their faith.” If one does not bear fruit there is no “evidence” of repentance.Again the “elect” are compelled to “work righteousness,” those that are not the “elect” will and have to sin, for they are still in bondage to sin and they are not compelled by the Spirit to true repentance with the evidence of righteous fruit. So the “elect” are kept…by what? The elect are kept by Faith.1Pe 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.And “FAITH” without “works” is dead, and is not faith at all.Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.So our “work” is the evidence of our “faith,” and our “fruit” is the evidence of our true “repentance,” and election. 2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
     
  19. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    I recomend a book called Destin To Reign by Joseph Prince The best book Ive read in a long time. He talks about grace and explains how to seperate the covenants as we study scripture. A must read. Everyone I know that has read cant put it down.Read it and then start a new post on discussing the book.
     
  20. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.If works are not important in faith as you say, please explain the scripture above.What are you going to say, " hey Jesus, I believe in you, but I'm not going to repent, I'm still going to steal, lust, keep my greed, my envy, I'm not going to feed the poor, or do anything which you wanted me to do in the bible. But God, I believe in you, so i better be saved."Do you know what Jesus had to say to the people who spouted that belief And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.( Matt 2:21)We are saved by faith, not works, but true faith is impossible without true works. How are you supposed to dedicate your who life to God if you don't follow any of his teachings.you can't, it cannot be doneyour brother in christRyan Fitz
     
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