The Works of the Law

[dak]

This topic came up in the thread "Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter", (Reply#46), and since the response was ignored and is now buried, I thought it good to make a separate thread about the idiom, "the works of the Law", by which Paul surely means works of the Torah. However this is an idiom used by all of the four main sects in first century Yerushalem with a well defined meaning. It pertains to dogmas and teachings concerning the forms of halakha among each of the four main sects in first century Yisrael.

It only speaks of decisions made by men concerning how to walk pleasing unto Elohim according to the interpretations and understandings of each sect as handed down from their Elders, and among the four sects, none had identical rules and dogmas in their lists containing "the works of the Torah", though the Zealots pretty much agreed with the Pharisees when it came to their forms of doctrines. The one thing in common is that, although all four sects had different understandings for the works of the Torah, yet all four sects had "works of the Torah" lists which were based on outward and physical interpretations of the Torah, according to the natural mind of the natural man. In the places where Paul uses this idiom he is speaking most prominently of the "works of the Torah" according to Pharisee doctrines and dogmas foisted upon the people, which the Meshiah nailed to the stake and set us free from.

The meaning of this phrase, "the works of the Law", is manifestly evident in Galatians 3:1-3. Paul's term, the works of the Law, is the same idiom for the same halakha which Paul knew all too well as having been a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees, (Acts 23:6). It's the Pharisee halakha, "the works of the Torah", and Galatians 3:1-3 proves what it speaks of.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 ASV
1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 LSV (Literal Standard Version)
1 O thoughtless Galatians, who bewitched you, not to obey the truth—before whose eyes [it] was previously written [about] Jesus Christ having been crucified?
2 I only wish to learn this from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so thoughtless? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now end in the flesh?

Their receiving of the Spirit was by Paul's Gospel, (testimony is spirit, whether for the good, or for the evil, and the Testimony of the Meshiah is both Spirit, and Life, Jhn 6:63), which Paul delivered unto them together with the Acts 15 letter from the brethren at Yerushalem, just as he did with all the congregations which he founded in the Master.

The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah according to the flesh. The Torah is spiritual, as Paul also states in Romans 7:14a, and therefore the "works of the Law" are not the Torah itself, but rather, an incorrect, outward, and physical-minded reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Torah. And every time Paul employs this idiom he speaks of the same faulty interpretations of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Scribes, Elders, and the Sanhedrin, which were foisted upon the people by those rulers who did not correctly understand the Torah.

This fact that the idiom, the works of the Torah, pertained to what has been stated herein above, has now been proven by a partial scroll from Khirbet Qumran called 4QMMT. The link below is a fairly lengthy study but well worth the time for those truly seeking to understand what Paul really means when he employs this idiom.

4QMMT and Paul's "Works of the Law" (Galatians 2)

The acronym MMT are the first letters of the Hebrew words in the name assigned to the manuscript, Miqsat Ma'aseh ha-Torah. Translated, the words mean "a selection of the works of the Law" or "significant works of the Law." The Dead Sea Scrolls may shed important light on what this phrase meant...

reesecommentaries.com

The logic in the passage posted above, Gal 3:1-3, cannot be refuted:

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Torah, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, will you now be perfected by the flesh?

There is no escaping the logic in the context: if the Galatians had returned, or were about to return to the flesh, then the "works of the Torah" are surely works of the flesh. However the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).

 

[dak]

First and second occurrences of the idiom:

Romans 3:19-31 TS 2009 W/Footnotes
19 And we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those who are in the Torah, so that every mouth might be stopped, and all the world come under judgment before Elohim.
20 Therefore by works of Torah no flesh shall be declared right before Him, Psa 143:2 for by the Torah is the knowledge of sin.b Footnote: bExo 20:20, Rom 4:15, Rom 7:7.
21 But now, apart from the Torah, a righteousness of Elohim has been revealed, being witnessed by the Torah and the Prophets,
22 and the righteousness of Elohim is through belief in יהושע Messiah to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the esteem of Elohim,
24 being declared right, without paying, by His favour through the redemption which is in Messiah יהושע,
25 whom Elohim set forth as an atonement, through belief in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His tolerance Elohim had passed over the sins that had taken place before,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He is righteous and declares righteous the one who has belief in יהושע.
27 Where, then, is the boasting? It is shut out. By what torah? Of works? No, but by the torah of belief.
28 For we reckon that a man is declared right by belief without works of Torah.
29 Or is He the Elohim of the Yehuḏim only, and not also of the nations? Yes, of the nations also,
30 since it is one Elohim who shall declare right the circumcised by belief and the uncircumcised through belief.
31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.c Footnote: cSee Rom 7:12.

Knowing the meaning of the idiom, "the works of Torah", Amen!

Third, fourth, and fifth occurrences of the idiom:

Galatians 2:14-16 TS2009 W/Footnotes
14 But when I saw that they are not walking straight according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Kĕpha before them all, “If you, being a Yehuḏi, live as the nations and not as the Yehuḏim, why do you compel nations to live as Yehuḏim?
15 “We, Yehuḏim by nature, and not of the nations, sinners,
16 knowing that a man is not declared right by works of Torah, but through belief in יהושע Messiah, even we have believed in Messiah יהושע, in order to be declared right by belief in Messiah and not by works of Torah, because by works of Torah no flesh shall be declared right.

Knowing the meaning of the idiom, "the works of Torah", Amen!

Final occurrences of the idiom and from the OP:

Galatians 3:2-12 TS2009 W/Footnotes
2 This only I wish to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of Torah, or by the hearing of belief?
3 Are you so senseless? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now end in the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so much in vain – if indeed in vain?
5 Is He, then, who is supplying the Spirit to you and working miracles among you, doing it by works of Torah, or by hearing of belief?
6 Even so Aḇraham “did believe Elohim, and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness.” Gen 15:6.
7 Know, then, that those who are of belief are sons of Aḇraham.
8 And the Scripture, having foreseen that Elohim would declare right the nations by belief, announced the Good News to Aḇraham beforehand, saying, “All the nations shall be blessed in you,”a Gen 12:3. Footnote: aGen 18:18.
9 so that those who are of belief are blessed with Aḇraham, the believer.
10 For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all that has been written in the Book of the Torah, to do them.” Deu 27:26.
11 And that no one is declared right by Torah before Elohim is clear, for “The righteous shall live by belief.” Hab 2:4.
12 And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them.” Lev 18:5.

Knowing the meaning of the idiom, "the works of Torah", Amen!

Now therefore, those here that have already accused me of being of the works of the Torah are found to be false accusers for lack of study, knowledge, and understanding of the writings of Paul, and moreover lack of study of the culture and era from within which he wrote.

"Of the works of Torah" ~ a trust in the outward, physical, natural-minded interpretations of the Torah by the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Scribes, Elders, and Sanhedrin, which were also contained in handwritten dogmas and decrees that were against us and brought the people of the whole nation of Yisrael into bondage, (see: Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter (which kills)).

 

[Hiddenthings]

10 For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all that has been written in the Book of the Torah, to do them.” Deu 27:26.

 

[Hiddenthings]

CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW:

Beyond redeeming us from sin, wickedness, the world, and the power of men (Tit 2:14; Heb 9:15; Rev 14:3–4), Christ also redeemed us from the Law of Moses itself (Gal 4:5)

Galatians 4:5 "to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." specifically, from the curse that accompanied it (Gal 3:13).

Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.’”

Importantly, the Law was not evil in itself, it was holy, just, and good (Rom 7:12–14). However, the Law exposed (intensified) human sin, bringing it into sharper focus, and in doing so, revealed humanity’s guilt effectively identifying people as sinners. Because of this, the Law came to represent sin itself by a figure of speech (metonymy), where the cause (the Law) is used to stand for the effect (sin).

Christ, though perfectly righteous, submitted to the curse of the Law in his death, not because of sin in himself, but to stand in our place. By taking on that curse voluntarily, he neutralized its power. As a result, those who are "in Christ" are also freed from that curse and no longer condemned by it.

 

[dak]

@Hiddenthings, Please either add commentary to your first reply, (#3 above), or delete the post since it cannot be responded to with nothing but a quote in the post.

CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW:

Yes.

Beyond redeeming us from sin, wickedness, the world, and the power of men (Tit 2:14; Heb 9:15; Rev 14:3–4), Christ also redeemed us from the Law of Moses itself (Gal 4:5)

Rev 14:4 says These were purchased-redeemed from among men, not from men, and the reason why translations do not place the word "among" in italics is because the text reads απο των ανθρωπων, which is to say from of the men, which indicates from among men. Moreover there is no Greek word for power in the text. Moreover your understanding of this strongly suggests that the Master paid the blood price, his own blood, to men. That opens up a multitude of possible objections and yet it is not even what the passage says or means. He purchased the 144,000 from among men to be firstfruits to Elohim and to the Lamb.

Galatians 4:5 "to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." specifically, from the curse that accompanied it (Gal 3:13).

To the actual verse quote, yes, but what follows is your opinion added to the statement. If it was specifically, from the curse that accompanied it, (your words), then you yourself imply that there is indeed a possibility that one may be saved by doing the works of the law. How is it that I need to correct you concerning this?

Believe the Torah, and believe that it is the Word of the Father, and understand it only according to the Testimony of the Meshiah and his Apostles: but realize that this, while pleasing to the Father, is not what results in salvation, for we all have sinned, and therefore surely cannot save ourselves by any means. The Father is the only Savior, and He saves us through His one-and-only one-of-a-kind Son, (His Word), who is ever-always in the bosom of the Father.

Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.’”

Yes.

Importantly, the Law was not evil in itself, it was holy, just, and good (Rom 7:12–14).

Not was, but IS holy, because the text doesn't specify either way, therefore love the Father and choose life: it is holy, not was holy.

Romans 7:12
12 ωστε ο μεν νομος αγιος και η εντολη αγια και δικαια και αγαθη
12 Truly therefore the Torah [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.

Romans 7:12 ASV
12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.

However, the Law exposed (intensified) human sin, bringing it into sharper focus, and in doing so, revealed humanity’s guilt effectively identifying people as sinners. Because of this, the Law came to represent sin itself by a figure of speech (metonymy), where the cause (the Law) is used to stand for the effect (sin).

Those are your own opinions based on your own understanding of what Paul teaches about those things. You jumped the shark: nowhere does Paul say that the Law came to represent sin itself, (your words), neither does he say, where the cause (the Law) is used to stand for the effect (sin). Torah does not cause sin: your belief in that notion is a huge error on your part in understanding what Paul is saying.

Christ, though perfectly righteous, submitted to the curse of the Law in his death, not because of sin in himself, but to stand in our place. By taking on that curse voluntarily, he neutralized its power. As a result, those who are "in Christ" are also freed from that curse and no longer condemned by it.

Yes, amen, but we also must die by taking up our own stake and following the Master to the end: this is of course not physical death or physical crucifixion, for all of that was done away with when Meshiah was raised from the dead, and his Testimony was shown to have not only been sealed at the start, by the Father, but also to have been accepted on High because the Meshiah was resurrected. Everything now is according to the Spirit of the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts and nothing is done away with, including the Torah: but just as Paul says, the Torah is spiritual, (again, Rom 7:14a). And moreover Paul refutes your teaching about the Torah having been done away with, set aside, or abolished, right there at the end of the passage in Romans 7.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Hiddenthings, Please either add commentary to your first reply, (#3 above), or delete the post since it cannot be responded to with nothing but a quote in the post.

No dak, leave it there as it highlights how we all can be guilty of highlighting preferred text.

Rev 14:4 says These were purchased-redeemed from among men, not from men, and the reason why translations do not place the word "among" in italics is because the text reads απο των ανθρωπων, which is to say from of the men, which indicates from among men. Moreover there is no Greek word for power in the text. Moreover your understanding of this strongly suggests that the Master paid the blood price, his own blood, to men. That opens up a multitude of possible objections and yet it is not even what the passage says or means. He purchased the 144,000 from among men to be firstfruits to Elohim and to the Lamb.

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.” James 1:18

This verse emphasizes that believers, through the new birth by God's word, are regarded as firstfruits, those set apart and made holy for God. In biblical terms, firstfruits carry special significance: they represent the beginning of a greater harvest. Spiritually, this points to the privileges of the firstborn, which under the Old Covenant included a double portion, priestly responsibility, and authority.

Now, through Christ, those in him inherit these spiritual blessings. As the firstfruits of God’s new creation, they signal a much larger gathering to come ultimately fulfilled in the resurrection and final judgment, referenced in Revelation 20:12–15

To the actual verse quote, yes, but what follows is your opinion added to the statement. If it was specifically, from the curse that accompanied it, (your words), then you yourself imply that there is indeed a possibility that one may be saved by doing the works of the law. How is it that I need to correct you concerning this?

Not possible at all dak.

Believe the Torah, and believe that it is the Word of the Father, and understand it only according to the Testimony of the Meshiah and his Apostles: but realize that this, while pleasing to the Father, is not what results in salvation, for we all have sinned, and therefore surely cannot save ourselves by any means. The Father is the only Savior, and He saves us through His one-and-only one-of-a-kind Son, (His Word), who is ever-always in the bosom of the Father.

Not always dak, but Jesus certainly made it there!

Not was, but IS holy, because the text doesn't specify either way, therefore love the Father and choose life: it is holy, not was holy.

I can accept that dak.

Romans 7:12
12 ωστε ο μεν νομος αγιος και η εντολη αγια και δικαια και αγαθη
12 Truly therefore the Torah [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.

Romans 7:12 ASV
12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.

No argument

Those are your own opinions based on your own understanding of what Paul teaches about those things. You jumped the shark: nowhere does Paul say that the Law came to represent sin itself, (your words), neither does he say, where the cause (the Law) is used to stand for the effect (sin).

But you know it has and did.

Torah does not cause sin: your belief in that notion is a huge error on your part in understanding what Paul is saying.

These are your words not mine. But let me explain how Paul uses Words.

Flesh in and of itself is not sin, however Paul uses sin to mean flesh, for instance:

"For our sake he (God) made him (Jesus) to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." – 2 Corinthians 5:21

Paul is able to say this because Christ’s human nature was subject to death’s dominion (Romans 6:23), and he bore the penalty of sin within himself, his nature. Romans 8:1-3; Heb 2:14-17 etc. Flesh and sin become synonymous.

So, it is with the Law of Moses, because the Law could not save, but only condemn, it became synonymous with the flesh, just as our natural condition (flesh) condemns us to death something the Law amplified - Law, sin, and flesh are interconnected, even though the Law itself is holy and good.

Yes, amen, but we also must die by taking up our own stake and following the Master to the end: this is of course not physical death or physical crucifixion, for all of that was done away with when Meshiah was raised from the dead, and his Testimony was shown to have not only been sealed at the start, by the Father, but also to have been accepted on High because the Meshiah was resurrected. Everything now is according to the Spirit of the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts and nothing is done away with, including the Torah: but just as Paul says, the Torah is spiritual, (again, Rom 7:14a). And moreover Paul refutes your teaching about the Torah having been done away with, set aside, or abolished, right there at the end of the passage in Romans 7.

Once again, you’ve missed the point, Dak. While the Law is indeed holy and good, it served its divine purpose for those who were under it. It contained wisdom, though veiled in shadow and mystery.

Speaking of Christ, Colossians 2:3 "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

If you believe this to be true of Christ, what need is there for the Old Covenant? You already admitted it condemned and cursed?

I get why you "want" to retain it for its beauty and teaching, but to do so is to imply something in Christ is lacking.

Romans 7 highlights Paul weakness and inability to obey the Law and as a result he was in utter despair however the contrast to Paul writing to the Corinthians is far different in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:8–9 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed." (The Law drove Paul to despair - the New Covenant did not!)

Paul’s message to his brothers in Romans 7 is quite the opposite, not that the Law was flawed, but that the flesh is weak. The Law of Moses fulfilled its purpose by guiding people to Christ and salvation. Now, all wisdom and knowledge are found in Christ. This means that every principle of the Torah you cherish is embodied in Christ and the New Covenant, written not on stone tablets, but on hearts.

Just on you comment re Romans 7:14a.

Everything Yahweh speaks is spiritual, His laws, promises, and Christ himself (the Logos). However, not all laws are eternal; God may choose to introduce new laws or commands in the future to govern the Kingdom Age. He might even take many laws from the Torah and repurpose them for that time.

Broadening your view is required when reading Romans 7:14

The Law here refers not only to the Law of Moses but more broadly to Yahweh's Code of Righteousness, which includes the Mosaic Law and to which all believers throughout history are subject and by which they will be judged.

Hope that helps

 

[Hiddenthings]

And moreover Paul refutes your teaching about the Torah having been done away with, set aside, or abolished, right there at the end of the passage in Romans 7.

Paul transitions from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant at the end of Romans 7 and into Romans 8:1-3 and beyond!

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. Ro 8:1–3.

To remain with the Old Covenant (most of Chapter 7) is to have despair which only leads to death until you enter Christ (Romans 6).

Based on what you've shared so far, it seems your position is that, while you acknowledge value in understanding and learning from the Law, your primary focus is not on being under it.

 

[quietthinker]

This topic came up in the thread "Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter", (Reply#46), and since the response was ignored and is now buried, I thought it good to make a separate thread about the idiom, "the works of the Law", by which Paul surely means works of the Torah. However this is an idiom used by all of the four main sects in first century Yerushalem with a well defined meaning. It pertains to dogmas and teachings concerning the forms of halakha among each of the four main sects in first century Yisrael.

It only speaks of decisions made by men concerning how to walk pleasing unto Elohim according to the interpretations and understandings of each sect as handed down from their Elders, and among the four sects, none had identical rules and dogmas in their lists containing "the works of the Torah", though the Zealots pretty much agreed with the Pharisees when it came to their forms of doctrines. The one thing in common is that, although all four sects had different understandings for the works of the Torah, yet all four sects had "works of the Torah" lists which were based on outward and physical interpretations of the Torah, according to the natural mind of the natural man. In the places where Paul uses this idiom he is speaking most prominently of the "works of the Torah" according to Pharisee doctrines and dogmas foisted upon the people, which the Meshiah nailed to the stake and set us free from.

The meaning of this phrase, "the works of the Law", is manifestly evident in Galatians 3:1-3. Paul's term, the works of the Law, is the same idiom for the same halakha which Paul knew all too well as having been a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees, (Acts 23:6). It's the Pharisee halakha, "the works of the Torah", and Galatians 3:1-3 proves what it speaks of.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 ASV
1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 LSV (Literal Standard Version)
1 O thoughtless Galatians, who bewitched you, not to obey the truth—before whose eyes [it] was previously written [about] Jesus Christ having been crucified?
2 I only wish to learn this from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so thoughtless? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now end in the flesh?

Their receiving of the Spirit was by Paul's Gospel, (testimony is spirit, whether for the good, or for the evil, and the Testimony of the Meshiah is both Spirit, and Life, Jhn 6:63), which Paul delivered unto them together with the Acts 15 letter from the brethren at Yerushalem, just as he did with all the congregations which he founded in the Master.

The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah according to the flesh. The Torah is spiritual, as Paul also states in Romans 7:14a, and therefore the "works of the Law" are not the Torah itself, but rather, an incorrect, outward, and physical-minded reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Torah. And every time Paul employs this idiom he speaks of the same faulty interpretations of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Scribes, Elders, and the Sanhedrin, which were foisted upon the people by those rulers who did not correctly understand the Torah.

This fact that the idiom, the works of the Torah, pertained to what has been stated herein above, has now been proven by a partial scroll from Khirbet Qumran called 4QMMT. The link below is a fairly lengthy study but well worth the time for those truly seeking to understand what Paul really means when he employs this idiom.

4QMMT and Paul's "Works of the Law" (Galatians 2)

The acronym MMT are the first letters of the Hebrew words in the name assigned to the manuscript, Miqsat Ma'aseh ha-Torah. Translated, the words mean "a selection of the works of the Law" or "significant works of the Law." The Dead Sea Scrolls may shed important light on what this phrase meant...

reesecommentaries.com

The logic in the passage posted above, Gal 3:1-3, cannot be refuted:

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Torah, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, will you now be perfected by the flesh?

There is no escaping the logic in the context: if the Galatians had returned, or were about to return to the flesh, then the "works of the Torah" are surely works of the flesh. However the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).

I think 'works of the law' is anything which focuses your reality on what you do, how you do it and why you do it

 

[dak]

I think 'works of the law' is anything which focuses your reality on what you do, how you do it and why you do it

The link at the bottom of the OP proves otherwise.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The link at the bottom of the OP proves otherwise.

Have you worked out how the promises (by faith) form the foundation of the Gospel and not the Torah?

 

[dak]

Have you worked out how the promises (by faith) form the foundation of the Gospel and not the Torah?

No matter how much you wish to change the subject matter it is too late: the point of the thread has already been proven. Did you read the link at the bottom of the OP? Whenever Paul uses the idiom works of the law, he is not speaking of the Torah, rather, for anyone understanding the things offered herein and from the link provided in the OP, he is clearly speaking of things added to the Torah, based on interpretations of the Torah, by the Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and the Sanhedrin, which were binding upon the people and brought the people into bondage. These things pertain to halakha as previously stated in the OP.

One of the most prominent works of the law according to the Perushim, (Pharisees), is the wand washing ritual which remains in force to this day, and as also previously mentioned, Paul knew these works of the law like the back of his hand, having been a Pharisee the son of Pharisees as he himself says.

Anyone else who may be interested in the truth should watch the following short video with Nehemiah Gordon, a Kairite Jew and a former Pharisee who, at an early stage in life, came to realize the extreme errors in the so-called oral law of the Pharisees and their highly esteemed sages now recorded in the Talmud(s), etc., and formally left Phariseeism because of the great hypocrisy he discovered in their anti-biblical claims which so often violate the Torah.

Moreover below are a simple three more prominent and well know works of the law:
1) Physical circumcision of the male private member: a seal of the Pharisees because it commits the adherent to all of the works of the law as taught by the Pharisees, according to the Pharisee doctrines, which is why Paul says that if you undergo physical circumcision then Meshiah will profit you nothing, for then you become obligated to perform and adhere to all of their outward carnal minded versions of the works of the law. Now days it is even worse: for you would be required to openly deny the Meshiah.
2) Tzitzit: tassels attached to the four corners of your garment, another outward minded physical interpretation of the Torah which we know is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).
3) Teffilin: the strapping on of tefillin six days a week based on four terribly misunderstood Torah passages which are handwritten in each of the two boxes

Do you see me here advocating for the Pharisee handwashing ritual HT? Do you see me here advocating physical circumcision HT? Do you see me here advocating the wearing Tzitzit or the strapping on Tefillin six days a week HT? These are all works of the law which were not even all the same among each of the four main sects in first century Yisrael.

Moreover, HT, if you agree with the Elders, Sanhedrin, Chief Priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, and Scribes, concerning most of their own interpretations of the Torah, (including even so-called animal sacrifices), which came long before you and your beloved Christadelphian dogma, then you are pretty much no doubt a Meshiah denier and are in agreement with what Meshiah died for and gave his soul and blood for in order to abolish those things by nailing them to the stake. You have not heard a word that has been said to you in at least four threads now, and because of it, you are now buried under a mountain of evidence proving the catastrophic errors of your natural minded Christadelphian belief system.

Can you see yet? Playing off-topic gotcha question games is not going to work. And, by the way, when you alert me to any thread outside the bottom five sections on the main page, I cannot answer them because I was honest and signed up as an "other", (non-Trinitarian), and don't have privileges to respond anywhere else.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No matter how much you wish to change the subject matter it is too late: the point of the thread has already been proven.

You can prove anything you want in your own mind dak.

Did you read the link at the bottom of the OP? Whenever Paul uses the idiom works of the law, he is not speaking of the Torah, rather, for anyone understanding the things offered herein and from the link provided in the OP, he is clearly speaking of things added to the Torah, based on interpretations of the Torah, by the Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and the Sanhedrin, which were binding upon the people and brought the people into bondage. These things pertain to halakha as previously stated in the OP.

Did the Law have any works?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Dealing with you @dak reminds me of the events in Acts 15.

Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?”

Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God" This marks the first direct challenge to the Judaizers gathered at the conference: “Why provoke Him to displeasure?” God had already accepted faithful Gentiles (v. 7), so insisting that Jewish rituals were essential for salvation would undermine His actions, since such requirements had not been imposed on Cornelius and his household.

The Greek word peirazete, translated here as “tempt,” means “to put to the test” or “to prove”. The opponents were testing God’s patience by suggesting He lacked the power to save by faith alone, implying salvation depended on strict adherence to works.

The critical distinction between salvation by faith and by works is that faith is grounded in God’s manifestation in thought and deed, while works focus only on outward actions.

“To put a yoke” A restrictive burden, which would oppress faith and restrict the freedom found in the Truth. Paul refers to it in Galatians 5:1 as “a yoke of bondage,” since it places a person under the curse of the Law (@dak which you agree!). The Judaizers promoted ritual compliance as a means of salvation, but without genuine faith.

A yoke symbolizes slavery or bondage (1 Tim. 6:1), affliction (Lam. 3:27), punishment (Lam. 1:14), or oppressive ceremonial burdens (Matt. 11:29–30).

“Upon the neck of the disciples” Refers to Gentile believers who were striving to uphold the truth in Christ Jesus and had willingly embraced the apostles’ teachings.

“Which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” Since no one could perfectly keep the Law (in any form!), all fell short of its demands and thus came under its condemnation, even when striving earnestly to obey (James 2:10).

It's impossible for you to wear the yoke of bondage and the yoke of Christ at the same time. Now none of this detracts from the deep wisdom found in the Law (Torah) only that now its not the basis of salvation which is by Faith & Promise.

Not hard dak!

 

[Hiddenthings]

What follows is not a requirement for the Gentiles to be under the Torah, no what follows is the expression of Faith in Christ Jesus.

“But we believe” A confident declaration of apostolic conviction placed before the assembly.

“That through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” These are Peter’s final recorded words in Acts. They echo Paul’s later exposition in Galatians 2:16. Peter affirms that the salvation experienced by Gentile believers (v. 7) must also be the experience of Jewish disciples, not through the legalism of the Law and its works, but through obedient faith in God’s grace.

Peter’s reasoning went unchallenged. His words carried clarity, logical force, and a strong scriptural foundation that the audience could not dispute.

I'm sure @dak you will not show the same degree of faith and acceptance.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It only speaks of decisions made by men concerning how to walk pleasing unto Elohim according to the interpretations and understandings of each sect as handed down from their Elders, and among the four sects, none had identical rules and dogmas in their lists containing "the works of the Torah", though the Zealots pretty much agreed with the Pharisees when it came to their forms of doctrines. The one thing in common is that, although all four sects had different understandings for the works of the Torah, yet all four sects had "works of the Torah" lists which were based on outward and physical interpretations of the Torah, according to the natural mind of the natural man. In the places where Paul uses this idiom he is speaking most prominently of the "works of the Torah" according to Pharisee doctrines and dogmas foisted upon the people, which the Meshiah nailed to the stake and set us free from.

Are you suggesting every reference in the NT where "works of the Law" is stated is only referring to - quote "where Paul uses this idiom he is speaking most prominently of the "works of the Torah" according to Pharisee doctrines and dogmas foisted upon the people,

Can you clarify your position thanks