The World Before, Truly

[Davy]

I offer this deeper Bible study for those who have difficulty with some things written in God's Word, particularly what Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3 that some struggle with in Apostle Paul's Epistles. Understanding this matter is not a Salvation issue, but it can help pull together some deeper things written in God's Word, Bible topics which that some believe are too controversial for pastors to cover in today's Churches systems.

THE SETTING: "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3:6):
Firstly, I do not believe in evolution theory, nor Darwinism. This topic is not about that. Secondly, I DO... believe God's Word teaches about an old world prior to Adam and Eve, a time when God originally created Satan as a covering cherub to guard His Throne, and that Satan was then "perfect in his ways", but sometime after that Satan rebelled in coveting God's Throne (Ezekiel 28). That old world involved a time when there was no death, no sin, etc. When Satan rebelled, that was the very first sin, and is when the power of death was assigned to Satan.

Thirdly, God's Word reveals that the very first sin was not done by Adam and Eve, but by Satan himself when he rebelled against God in coveting God's Throne. Jesus revealed in Revelation 12:3-4 back in that old world that Satan (that "dragon") drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him in that rebellion of old.

Fourthly, by the time Satan appears in Genesis 3 to tempt Adam and Eve, he is already in his role as Tempter against God, and that shows he had already sinned and fallen. In 1 John 3:8, he said that the devil sinned from the beginning, which is a pointer to Satan's original rebellion in that old world.

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

And for that reason, The Son of God was manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil. That means because of Satan's rebellion in that old world, that is why Lord Jesus Christ was ordained to be born of woman in this present world, in order to defeat death and the devil for us (Hebrews 2:14). Even that purpose reveals that a previous rebellion had to have happened in an old world, prior to Christ being ordained to be sent into this present world to die on the cross, thus defeating death and the devil.

 

[Davy]

In 2 Peter 3, Apostle Peter is talking about three world earth ages. The first one, "the world that then was", most think that was about the flood of Noah's day. That's not the flood Peter was pointing to though. Peter was pointing back to the first flood, the destruction by God back in the old world..., the time when Satan first rebelled against God in coveting His Throne...

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

In what manner... does Peter say there that "the heavens were of old", and by what Power? by "the word of God". How was that? That is about the very 1st verse of God's Word, Genesis 1:1 when it was said, "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1 is the event Peter is relating with that, "by the word of God the heavens were of old."

Peter is also pointing to the Genesis 1:2 verse which is a description of the earth after... God brought a destruction upon it, using a flood of waters (not Noah's day, there have been 2 world floods upon this earth)...

Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV

Those ideas, "the face of the deep" and "the face of the waters", are ideas also used about the flood of Noah's day (Genesis 7:11; Genesis 8:2; see Hebrew tehowm, Strong's no. 8415). So what's that reference to waters in the depths of the earth doing there at Genesis 1:2? That would mean the earth was already... existing at that verse! And so it was, as God brought a destruction upon it by a flood, destroying that old world because of Satan's rebellion against Him.

Thus the "without form, and void" phrase definitely does NOT mean the earth had yet to be created at that point. Instead, it reveals the earth already having been created at verse 1, and then at verse 2 the earth is laying underneath waters completely overspread upon the whole earth.

The actual Hebrew for "without form, and void" is tohu va bohu, and in reality means 'a waste and an indistinguishable ruin' (Strong's nos. 8414 and 922). Man's evolutionary theories have crept into the interpretation of that with their idea that this Genesis 1:2 verse is about ether space with no material matter created yet at this point, that a state of nothingness is what that verse is about (i.e., with their faulty translation of tohu va bohu). It is not about a nothingness condition. It is about the earth in a waste condition, which is how most Old Testament Scripture uses Hebrew tohu, i.e., something that was once good having gone into a wasted and ruined condition.

What that Genesis 1:2 verse shows, with Hebrew tohu va bohu, is the earth having gone into a destructed condition. And waters are overspread upon the whole earth as a result of that destruction (i.e., "the face of the waters"). In the verses that follow, it is revealed what God does with those existing waters of a flood upon the earth. He first moves part of them up to form the sky around the earth for this present... world we are now in. And then He moves waters left upon the earth around until the dry land appears that was underneath... all those waters at verse 2! There is NO creation of the earth event past... Genesis 1:1.

In Jeremiah 4, because of how the Jews in Jerusalem were in rebellion against Him, God tried to remind them of a previous destruction upon this earth that He did long ago. The Jews of course didn't listen, as God would bring the king of Babylon upon Jerusalem-Judea in Jeremiah's day, and take them all captive to Babylon for seventy years. But the below is what God spoke to them of the destruction of old He once did upon this earth, and many of the Jews even today still... miss what God said in the following...

Jer 4:22-28
22 For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
KJV

There's that same "without form, and void" phrase, which is Hebrew tohu va bohu (a waste and an indistinguishable ruin), the state that the earth was in at Genesis 1:2, with waters of a flood overspread upon the whole earth. God said of that time all the mountains trembled, and the hills moved lightly. And there was NO MAN. Why no man? Because He destroyed the angelic existence on earth of that old world? Maybe, but we definitely know flesh man was NOT created yet at that point of that old world when Satan followed God.

Note God calls the earth as a fruitful place that became a wilderness. And all the cities were broken down by His fierce anger?? Cities, in that OLD WORLD WHEN SATAN WORSHIPED GOD? Yeah! (I'll even reveal some of the archaeological evidence about that later).

THAT... is the event that Apostle Peter was pointing to in 2 Peter 3:6 about "the world that then was", the world created by The Word of God in the beginning, and with the earth standing in the water, and out of the water (i.e, the Genesis 1 parts about God moving the waters overspread upon the earth to form today's sky, and make the dry land appear). That... is what Peter was pointing to.

And Peter said many are "...willingly ignorant..." of these past world events, but instead just say, "...all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (2 Peter 3:4-7).

 

[Davy]

THE EVIDENCE OF THAT OLD WORLD:

Robert Schoch: Ancient Egypt, The Sphinx & The Great Flood

Dr. Robert Schoch is Professor of Geology at Boston University. If you're not aware of the geological evidence that Dr. Schoch uncovered about the date of the Sphinx being much older than what traditional Egyptologists believe, then you might want to check out the above video.

A friend of Dr. Schoch's, John West, asked Schoch to come to Egypt and review the erosion evidence upon the Sphinx, because West thought it was not from sand erosion as proposed by the Egyptologists. Dr. Schoch confirmed the geological erosion was from precipitation erosion, from rains. Thing is, the Sahara desert has been dry for 5,000 years, even before ancient Egyptian history.

Dr. Schoch placed the rain erosion of the Sphinx and its surroundings back to at least 7,000 B.C., which was long before any Egyptian dynasty, revealing that the Egyptians were NOT the original builders. John West claims Dr. Schoch is being conservative with the dating, and states the date of the Sphinx water erosion goes back to at least 9,000 B.C. or even further. The Egyptologists still will not accept the evidence Dr. Schoch presented, but over 275 of Dr. Schoch's geologist colleagues did accept his discovery. Thus since the early 1990's, Egyptologists and geologists have been in a battle over Dr. Schoch's geological discovery. (It's important to note that the science of Egyptology is about documenting the ancient Egyptian culture and dynasties, not documenting geological artifacts.)

However... one of the things I disagree with what Dr. Schoch is doing with all the conferences he is going to in trying to get the word out about his discovery, I think some of those conference hosts are kind of 'out there' with some of their own theories. Yet I understand why Dr. Schoch is using those as a platform to get the word out about his discoveries and what his geological data of the Sphinx erosion reveals about the "world that then was" from 2 Peter 3:5-6. Personally, I don't think Dr. Schoch realizes the Biblical evidence that supports his discovery of a previous civilization back 9,000 to 11,000 years ago. Most of my brethren in Christ probably doubt it too, because of the old 6,000 year creation theory that some men formed from Bishop Ussher's 17th century work that put the creation of Adam back to 4004 B.C. (I believe the days of Genesis 1 were 1,000 year periods, based on 2 Peter 3:8).

In Romans 8, Apostle Paul points back to that old world of God's original perfect creation in the beginning at Genesis 1:1, and how that God ended that original creation and instead placed it in the bondage to corruption for this 2nd present world earth age of today...

Rom 8:18-25
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The subject? The glory of the world to come, the future world when Lord Jesus returns. The "creature" also waits for that future world, along with the manifesting of the sons of God.

The Greek word for "creature" is Greek ktisis, and it means the 'creation'. Thus Paul is talking about God's creation here, not some animal. So if the 'creation' is waiting for the manifesting of the "sons of God", that means that even though those in Christ are now 'called'... the "sons of God" per 1 John 3, there must still be some future manifestation we are yet lacking today. And there it is. Paul covers those things too, in Chapters like 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection body.

Rom 8
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Because the 'creation' was made subject to vanity, and bondage to corruption?? Well when did that happen? Some try to say that happened at Adam's fall when flesh man first sinned. Not really. It was at Satan's original rebellion when the very first sin in the beginning was. That... is when God placed His original 'perfect' creation in vanity and bondage to corruption for this present world time. What does that mean exactly?

 

[Davy]

Remember back to what God said in Jeremiah 4 about that destruction upon the earth of old, by His fierce anger? He revealed more about it...

Jer 4:27-28
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

Today's earth is in a state of mourning? Yeah! And God revealed there that He caused this 'partial' end back in that time of old, sometime after He created His perfect creation in the beginning. He ended that old world with a flood of waters upon the earth, because of Satan's rebellion against Him. That is why He said above that He would "not make a full end", meaning a full end of this present world condition. He placed THIS PRESENT WORLD in a state of vanity, bondage to corruption! Do you understand that?

Paul in Romans 8:18-25 is actually explaining about that bondage of the Jeremiah 4:27-28 Scripture! For this present world earth age, a 2nd earth age we are in today, it is preserved unto fire according to Apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:6). And it is in vanity and bondage to corruption. What kind of corruption?

EVERYTHING... either decays back to the baser elements or dies. Man plays up today's creation as if it were God's Perfect creation. It is NOT! Today's creation is IMPERFECT, and is NOT meant to be perfect, because of Satan's rebellion. That is why SIN and DEATH are a part of today's creation in bondage, because of what Satan did in that old world. Did you not know that in the world to come, after this present world is destroyed by God's consuming fire, that then after the GWT Judgment, there won't be any more sin nor 'death'? (Revelation 21:4). In the future new heavens and a new earth, we won't remember this present time (Isaiah 65:17).

Isaiah 11 reveals the cow and the bear will feed together, and the lamb and wolf will dwell together, no harm coming to them. In other words, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom TV show will go out of business! The 'survival of the fittest' mentality of this world will not be remembered in the future world to come. Why? Because it was never part of God's ORIGINAL PERFECT creation in the beginning, PRIOR to Satan's rebellion. So if you cannot see the things written in God's Word of the future world to come, then you will never properly understand God's Word about what happened in the old world before Satan first rebelled in coveting God's Throne. Nor will you properly understand how God is going to allow Satan to come to earth at the end of this present world to deceive those who allow it because of not understanding these things in God's Word!

Romans 8
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Paul says not only the creation awaits the release from bondage to corruption, but so do we await for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Which body? In 1 Corinthians 15 Apostle Paul taught that the body of the world to come is the "image of the heavenly", so what kind of body do you think that means? That's right, the "spiritual body" he taught there. For Paul also said there that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50).

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV

And just so one KNOWS that future world to come has NOT come yet today, Paul makes it clear that we are still in HOPE for it today. So be patient.


THE RADICALS ON DR. SCHOCH'S DISCOVERY:
The non-Christian radicals that support Dr. Schoch discovery about the Sphinx water erosion evidence pointing to the Sphinx builders being many thousands of years prior to Egyptian history, love what he found out. It tends to support many of their radical wild theories about the myths of the city of Atlantis and such.

The occultists strongly believe that Atlantis really existed, and that it suffered a destruction. But before it was destroyed, certain inhabitants with great knowledge escaped, and went to the four corners of the earth, and that is why the pyramid structures sprang up on different continents with construction technology that still cannot be explained today by modern science (Great Pyramid; Cuzco moulded stones in Peru). They don't heed God's written Word though, so they miss what really happened in the old world...

I recall one of the old songs by a rock band called The Moody Blues. It was called The Word. In the era of the 1960's and '70's, many got into eastern religion, etc. I recall their idea of 'the lost word', which I believe is what bands like the Moody Blues was actually pointing to. According to their theory, the Lost Word of the ancients was about a certain mystical word that mankind once had back over ten thousand years ago. They wrap the idea up in all their mystical jargon and mumbo-jumbo, but you know what they are really pointing to, and no doubt unknowingly?

They are actually pointing to how Satan LOST The Word of God by his original rebellion in that old world. That... is their 'Lost Word', it is GOD's WORD originally written in the stars! (see Bullinger's A Witness to the Stars). They fell, and they lost God's Word. Thus the real meaning of the fall of the ancient city of Atlantis is in actuality about the FALL OF SATAN AND HIS ANGELS in that old world. Atlantis is really a myth about Satan's original exalted status in God's Eden before he fell (see Ezekiel 31), but Satan's fall and the destruction God brought because of that rebellion, and ended that old world, that is not a myth. Do you think Satan's workers upon this earth know about this? I have no doubt that they well know it, and are here to deceive as many as possible in wrongly believing the old Atlantis occult myths, including what the Greek philosopher Plato wrote about Atlantis, as if it really existed as a sunken island.

So here we are today, the evidence is out. Dr. Schoch has discovered geological evidence that the Sphinx had to have been built at least 9,000 or more years ago, because paleo-climatologists know that area hasn't been a rainy area for over 6,000 years, which Egyptian dynasty history only goes back to around 2,500 B.C. And the erosion shown on the Sphinx is from precipitation, not sand, meaning thousands of years of rain erosion in order to create the existing marks on the Sphinx base and surrounding walls.

 

[Davy]

NEW EVIDENCE BY DR. SCHOCH:

Dr. Schoch revised his book Forgotten Civilization, adding another 150 pages of evidence of his discoveries.

Dr. Schoch points out that the original representation of the Sphinx did not have the head of a man like it has today. He noted the head on today's Sphinx is proportionally very small in contrast to the rest of the body of the Sphinx. The head has been carved several times throughout the Sphinx's history. His new discoveries reveal the original representation of the Sphinx was that of a "lioness" figure...

What Dr. Schoch and his associates discovered back in the 1990's through seismic technology was that there is an underground chamber under the paws of the Sphinx. Since then Dr. Schoch and assoc. have now discovered hieroglyphs that talk about this 'lioness' Mehid (?) that was guardian over an "underground ancient archive or chamber". According to Dr. Schoch, the old Egyptian hieroglyphs in question, dated around 3100 to 2500 B.C., are talking about the Sphinx that it was even ancient to the Egyptian's day. That would point to the builders of the Sphinx not... being the Egyptians, but to builders in an earlier civilization prior to the Egyptians, pointing to the geological evidence that Dr. Schoch already discovered about the age of the Sphinx by its water erosion data. Now Dr. Schoch places the date of the building of the Sphinx back to prior to the end of the last ice age, around but before 9,700 B.C.

 

[Cassandra]

I offer this deeper Bible study for those who have difficulty with some things written in God's Word, particularly what Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3 that some struggle with in Apostle Paul's Epistles. Understanding this matter is not a Salvation issue, but it can help pull together some deeper things written in God's Word, Bible topics which that some believe are too controversial for pastors to cover in today's Churches systems.

THE SETTING: "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3:6):
Firstly, I do not believe in evolution theory, nor Darwinism. This topic is not about that. Secondly, I DO... believe God's Word teaches about an old world prior to Adam and Eve, a time when God originally created Satan as a covering cherub to guard His Throne, and that Satan was then "perfect in his ways", but sometime after that Satan rebelled in coveting God's Throne (Ezekiel 28). That old world involved a time when there was no death, no sin, etc. When Satan rebelled, that was the very first sin, and is when the power of death was assigned to Satan.

Thirdly, God's Word reveals that the very first sin was not done by Adam and Eve, but by Satan himself when he rebelled against God in coveting God's Throne. Jesus revealed in Revelation 12:3-4 back in that old world that Satan (that "dragon") drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him in that rebellion of old.

Fourthly, by the time Satan appears in Genesis 3 to tempt Adam and Eve, he is already in his role as Tempter against God, and that shows he had already sinned and fallen. In 1 John 3:8, he said that the devil sinned from the beginning, which is a pointer to Satan's original rebellion in that old world.

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

And for that reason, The Son of God was manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil. That means because of Satan's rebellion in that old world, that is why Lord Jesus Christ was ordained to be born of woman in this present world, in order to defeat death and the devil for us (Hebrews 2:14). Even that purpose reveals that a previous rebellion had to have happened in an old world, prior to Christ being ordained to be sent into this present world to die on the cross, thus defeating death and the devil.

Sorry for being stupid here, but I don't understand what Satan had to work with in this "old world". there were no people here, for if there were and he had deceived them , then Adam would have already had a sinful nature, because of what had occurred before. Satan was the first to sin, and I'm sure no one is disputing that, but Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin. They had a choice just like everyone else did.

And just perusing a bit, doesn't your whole thing fall apart if the days were 24 hour periods?

 

[Davy]

ICE AGES?:

I know, you probably think I'm pushing ideas of evolution theory. I am not doing that. I cannot account for Dr. Schoch's religious beliefs either. I am simply sticking to the scientific evidence that Dr. Schoch discovered. We have evidence of dinosaurs today also by their skeletons, yet some still refuse to believe that dinosaurs once existed upon this earth in ancient times. Even New Earth Creationists claim to be following real science with their attempts to prove dinosaurs are still walking around today among us, and they call that science?! So don't think I'm pushing non-scientific proofs. I am not.

So was there really an ice age, or several ice ages, in ancient history of the earth? Science has geological data that strongly suggests it. Yet I believe there was only ONE ice age in the earth's past history, and that was when God trembled this earth in destroying that old world, "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3). Again, let me point you to that ancient destruction upon the earth that our Heavenly Father once did to end that old world...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

That "Yet once more" is pointing to TWO TIMES of the shaking of this earth. Isaiah 2:19 and Revelation 6:14, etc., reveal the future shaking at the end of this present world, so God is going to shake it, again? When did He first... shake it, like this Hebrews Scripture reveals? and on what level of shaking? Do you remember Jeremiah 4:23-26?

Hebrews 12
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

That is pointing to the final shaking of this earth God will do to end this present world time on the "day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord", the last day of this present world, is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the surface of this earth (2 Peter 3). And that Hebrews Scripture is pointing to a previous... destruction God once did upon this earth, and it involved a shaking of only... the earth. Note per Hebrews 12:26 above, the next time it will be a shaking of both the earth... and Heaven. That reveals the type of destruction in the past when God first shook this earth only. Do you think that might have something to do with the earth's tilt today, since geographic true north is about 90 miles off from true magnetic north?

How does this relate to the idea of an ice age though?

Science well knows about the woolly mammoth discovered buried under the ice in the Arctic region of the earth, still with undigested flowers in its mouth and stomach, showing it was grazing in a lush green field, until it was frozen instantly. There's actually been several discoveries like that. But how could the mammoth be frozen at an instant, and where... did all that water that formed the ice come from? The mammoth grazing means the climate immediately prior had to have been a warm... climate. And all of a sudden, floods of water appears, and then freezes instantly?? I'm not making this up. That is what even science admits that had to have happened, even though they don't understand how. They just start talking a bunch of mumbo-jumbo about ice ages, probably hoping you'll forget about that mammoth being instantly frozen while grazing in a green field. They don't bother to mention much about the tropical plant and animal fossil remains found at both the earth's poles either, revealing those areas were once warm tropic zones. So what happened?

Our Heavenly Father ended... that old world. That is what happened. He shook this old earth, and the waters that then surrounded the 'whole'... earth (no holes in the sky), came down upon the earth, and flooded the whole thing, destroying Satan's original rebellion of old. How do you think the earth's poles got to be warm tropic zones before? plate shifts of the earth, as if the north and south pole used to sit in the area of Brazil at the equator? That's actually something like what modern science proposes, the idea of the earth's plates shifting, as if the Canadian Yukon went south to Latin America, and Latin America went north to the Arctic. Ever wonder about the following verse mentioning in God's future new heavens and a new earth, that there won't be any more sea?...

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV

Today's earth is covered by about 70% water, so where is all that water going to go for God's Word to be true there? Let's see, there's a lot of holes in our sky atmosphere around today's earth. The sun beads down upon the surface of the earth, evaporating waters on the earth, and causing hot air to rise up to meet cold air in the higher altitudes, and causing violent tempests and such; basically our violent weather patterns on today's earth. What if, what if... all that water upon the earth, were up in the sky, plugging all those holes in the atmosphere around the earth? What would that be like? It suggests an even and balanced temperature around the whole... earth. It suggests a 'greenhouse' condition. If the earth was in that kind of condition, could there be tropic zones at both of the earth's poles?

And what might end... that greenhouse condition around the earth? Have you figured out what I'm suggesting that likely happened to this ancient earth? and explains how the woolly mammoth was covered in water and instantly frozen, caught grazing in a lush green field, frozen with un-decayed plants still in its mouth and stomach? The Revelation 21:1 verse is pointing to God in the future putting back the waters in the sky holes around the earth, which is likely how He originally created this earth. Need a bit more about this in His Word? Look at this again...

Jer 4:26-28
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

I already covered the idea Apostle Paul taught in Romans 8 about God having placed His creation into vanity and a state of bondage to corruption for this present world time. That is why the earth mourns. Paul showed that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22). For that reason, "the heavens above be black". What's that mean?...

What happens when you see rain clouds full of water getting ready to storm? The clouds turn dark, don't they? That is what our Heavenly Father is pointing to about the earth mourning, because the heavens above it have all those storms going on, for this world. God said there in Jeremiah 4:27 that He wouldn't make a full end (of this present world), and He didn't. He instead placed this present creation in a state of bondage to corruption, like Paul said in Romans 8. What does that ultimately point to then, concerning the no more sea idea in Revelation 21:1, and the earth being destroyed of old by being overspread with waters? (2 Peter 3:5-6 and Genesis 1:2)

What I propose happened then, with the idea of an ice age that happened back around 11,000 to 13,000 years ago, is that... was when God destroyed that old world when Satan rebelled. God ended that time with a world-wide flood, and... a great shaking of this ancient earth. The waters surrounding the entire earth (no holes), was suddenly emptied upon the surface of the ancient earth, flooding its entire surface, ending Satan's rebellion on the ancient earth. Then when God put back some of those waters up into the sky, forming today's atmosphere, holes were left in it, exposing the earth's poles to cold space, and the sun affecting the direct heat radiation only at the equator zones. This is how the woolly mammoth grazing in a green field in the Arctic zone, that warm climate once protected by God's water canopy originally covering the whole... earth, suddenly and instantly changed, once the waters came down upon the earth and, then partially removed back up in the sky exposing the poles to cold air in space. Would such an event that happened quickly create an instant freezing like the fate of the woolly mammoth suggests? I believe so. Could it also account for an Ice Age around the whole earth? Possibly.

 

[Davy]

Sorry for being stupid here, but I don't understand what Satan had to work with in this "old world". there were no people here, for if there were and he had deceived them , then Adam would have already had a sinful nature, because of what had occurred before. Satan was the first to sin, and I'm sure no one is disputing that, but Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin. They had a choice just like everyone else did.

And just perusing a bit, doesn't your whole thing fall apart if the days were 24 hour periods?

Well, there's God's Word, and then there are man's traditions.

In 2 Peter 3:8, we are told to remember that to God, a 'day' means a thousand years. So that's why I believe the days of Genesis 1 represent thousand year periods. Peter showed that God's calendar is different from ours.

How does that work then, regarding the old earth when Satan first rebelled, and God's creation?

And you are correct, there were NO FLESH PEOPLE here on earth yet in that old world. But there WERE ANGELS. And we must not forget that God also created the angels with the image of 'man'. So the perfect human arch footprints found fossilized along with dinosaur footprint fossils shouldn't be a surprise for those who believe God's Word. That truth isn't for the atheist or unbelieving scientist. It comes from understanding in God's Word about a previous world earth age before this present one. It just wasn't a world with flesh people.

Bishop Ussher in the 17th century documented from God's Word the time of Christ's first coming back to the date of the man Adam formed in God's Garden. He placed the date of Adam's forming at 4004 B.C. That's over 6,000 years ago. Men's traditions then took that 4004 B.C. date for Adam and attached to it the time of God's creation. Do those understand about the existence of a previous world earth age when Satan was "perfect in his ways", as written in Ezekiel 28? No. They simply bypass that idea in God's Word. Those men who do that are the ones who created the tradition that God's creation is only around 6,000 years old. They surmised that idea from Ussher's 4004 B.C. date for God forming Adam in His Garden, and then added modern years to it.

The discoveries that Dr. Schoch has made do not detract from any of that which is written in God's Word. Instead, what his data reveals, is the existence of the previous world I have pointed to in God's written Word. So traditions of men are the cause of confusion with thinking that old world had to be one of flesh men also. It wasn't. But it was a previous world involving nations and cities, as the parable in Ezekiel 31 about Satan does reveal, and also the Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture about God destroying the cities of that old world.

 

[Davy]

Cassandra asked what could have Satan been in power over in that old world, because of no people back then. That's a good question, and it would seem what I'm covering on this Thread it would have been impossible for man to exist back with a previous civilization controlled by Satan upon the ancient earth, back at least before the last Ice Age (prior to 9700 B.C.).

However, what I am pointing to IS... in God's written Word. Most brethren look over it, or wrongly assign the Message to someone else, or to another time. For example, even in Ezekiel 28 God is using the prince and king of Tyrus, who were historical, as types. For what? For Satan himself when Satan once followed God, and God shows Satan was "perfect in his ways" back then, and that he was even at the stones of fire, at God's Altar. Yet some brethren still refuse to realize that God was not talking about the historical flesh prince and king of Tyrus, but pointing to Satan himself. How can we know that?

It is because in Ezekiel 28:13-14 God called him an "anointed cherub that covereth", and God said he was once in "Eden, the garden of God." A cherub is a heavenly created being, not a flesh man. And the only flesh man ever written about in God's Eden was the man Adam per Genesis 2. So we know the flesh prince and flesh king of Tyrus is not really whom God is pointing to in Ezekiel 28. God is only using those flesh men as 'types'... for Satan himself, and for a time prior to Satan's original rebellion.

If you don't understand what I'm saying about Ezekiel 28 pointing to Satan, then you might as well leave this Thread now, because Ezekiel 28 is not the only Bible Scripture where God used types to point to Satan. He also did it in the Isaiah 14 Chapter using the historical king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar), but I'm not going there for this Thread.

Here is another one of those 'type' examples where God is using the idea of a flesh king or kings, but in reality He is pointing to Satan.

Ezek 31
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; 'Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

God is speaking His Message through His prophet Ezekiel. God starts off pointing it to "Pharoah king of Egypt", asking who can Pharaoh be compared to? But notice in the very next verse, God then points to "the Assyrian". God is comparing Pharaoh to "the Assyrian", meaning the flesh king of Assyria.

God then uses the analogy of a cedar in Lebanon, which was used as a symbol for royalty and exalted status. The tree as a symbol is used in God's Word at times (see Mark 8:24 when the blind man Jesus healed saw men as trees walking.) In Ezekiel 17, God used the high cedar symbol to represent Zedekiah, king of Judah. Some of this high cedar tree analogy we also see in Daniel 4:10-14 within Nebuchadnezzar's dream. But here in Ezekiel 31, God is using those high cedar symbols to point to the flesh king of Assyria, and how his stature was with "fair branches", exalted as a "shadowing shroud" among the "thick boughs".

4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

All the above symbolic descriptions God speaks about "the Assyrian" will need to be RE-considered... once we understand the very next verse...

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

Cedars "in the garden of God"?? What garden would that be? God's Garden of Eden, of course! Wait a minute. No flesh king of Assyria was ever in God's Garden of Eden! So God cannot be talking about the flesh king of Assyria here, but someone else, right?

That's right. God is now pointing directly to Satan himself in God's Garden of Eden. And that means we have to go back up to the previous verses 3 thru 7 verses that are actually describing Satan's original exalted status, in God's Garden of Eden, a time prior to Satan's first rebellion.

 

[Davy]

Satan was like a high cedar, the "waters made him great". What waters in Eden? God's River of Genesis 2 that flowed out of Eden and fed four other rivers upon the earth back then. This was before Satan rebelled. God says,"... the deep set him up high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field." (Ezekiel 31:4 above).

God then says, "Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, ... and his branches became long because of the multitude of the waters, when he shot forth." (Ezekiel 31:5).

Do you see how the above is a symbolic analogy about high status in God's Eden? God already gave us one proof here that He is not really pointing to Pharoah nor the king of Assyria at this stage, but to Satan himself in His Garden of Eden.

God says about him, "All the fowls of heaven made their next in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations." (Ezekiel 31:6)

Uh, did you catch that, "... and under his shadow dwelt all great nations"??

So is our Heavenly Father referring to the flesh king of Assyria now with the idea of being over "all great nations", or He is still pointing to Satan with that? What do you think? Do you think 'nations' existed back at that time when Satan first rebelled against God?? I can assure, they did exist, but in an angelic type existence, on this earth...

Note the following event of old...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

I have tried and tried to get others to see a couple of specific pointers in the above red highlighted Scripture. Firstly, we know per Revelation 12:9 that the title of "dragon" is simply another one of Satan's many titles. So that is who this is pointing to as that "red dragon". And also, that part about "... his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...", is about Satan drawing one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. But when... did Satan do that?

Also, the "... seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns..." description there is different than the one John saw in Revelation 13:1. The beast described in Revelation 13 is to have "ten crowns" upon its heads. But this one here has only "seven crowns". And further, this beast here in Revelation 12:3 is timed with when this red dragon drew a third of those angels to earth. That puts this Revelation 12:3-4 (parts in red) to what... time? Back at Satan's rebellion of old.

OK then thinking about those "great nations" of Satan's time...

In Revelation 13:1 the first beast with the ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns John sees coming up out of the 'sea'. That sea represents the "waters" John saw later in Revelation 17, and those waters are defined as "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." (Revelation 17:15).

Since the Revelation 13:1 beast that has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns involves "nations", then what about that other beast back at Revelation 12:3-4 that had only "seven crowns"? Did that involve "nations" back when Satan first rebelled, and drew those third of the stars (angels) to earth??

Well, our Heavenly Father did not come out and 'directly' tell us that beast of old does involve nations, even back to the time of Satan's first rebellion, but... I think He is clearly telling us so in an indirect way through His use of symbology in His Word.

Understanding about the existence of nations in a previous world earth age might seem like a huge jump from our understanding today about this earth's history, however, God does not ask us to fit His Truth into men's theories and ideas, He simply shows us a thing, and it is up to us to believe Him, or not. But sometimes, man stumbles upon evidence that proves things in God's Word that most find hard to understand or believe. This I believe Dr. Robert Schoch and his associates have done with proving that the origin of the Sphinx in Egypt is much more ancient than the Egyptian dynasty, even though he probably does not have a clue about this Biblical revelation God left his faithful Bible students.

 

[Davy]

Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Once again, God cannot be talking about Pharaoh nor the king of Assyria, for they never were in His Garden of Eden. And God comparing Satan in a time here when his symbolic branches were fair with all the trees in Eden having envied him, again points to Satan's status in the beginning before he rebelled against God.

10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.
12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.
13 Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches:
14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Have to read the above very carefully. Notice how God is still using the cedar analogies, and mixing that in with the idea of people having gone down from his shadow, and have left him. God points to those trees surrounding him (Satan) no longer shoot up their boughs being exalted, nor stand up in their height, because they are all delivered unto death, "to the nether parts of the earth, .... with them that go down to the pit."

(Sidenote: in Judges 9, there is the parable of the 'bramble' bush, and the trees are offered by the bramble protection, if they will come under the bramble's shadow. Thing is, a bramble bush had no leaves, has bare branches and is very dry. So it does not give much of a shadow. And the dry bramble once a flame touches it, it goes up in flames like a torch. What that is pointing to is Satan himself as that 'bramble', and is showing his already fallen status for this present world. So here we see Satan's "shadow", all the people have left his shadow.)

Ezekiel 31:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

Do you recall Genesis 1:2 about the "face of the deep" and "face of the waters" covering the whole earth back then? That is the time when this is pointing to, i.e., the day when God ended that old world because of Satan's original rebellion against Him, using a flood of waters. The Genesis 1:2 verse with the earth being "without form, and void" is a description of that destruction, the earth laying in a waste and ruin condition. God then restrained the flood, and moved part of the waters upon the earth up into the sky, to form today's atmosphere around the earth. Then He moved the rest of the waters left upon the earth until the dry land appeared, thus making today's 2nd world earth age that is subject to bondage of corruption (Romans 8).

16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

There has been only one time before when God shook this earth, and that was in the old world when Satan first rebelled against Him. I've already shown about that in Hebrews 12 and Jeremiah 4. And Hebrews 12 tells us that God is going to shake this earth 'once more', and not just the earth, but heaven also.

Did you notice God mentions "nations" existing then at that old shaking when Satan fell? We well know flesh man did not yet exist back then, not until the man Adam in God's Garden of Genesis 2. That suggests that old world involved an angelic type existence on earth, and that involved those early "nations" on earth. And you know what? Robert Schoch has discovered... some of those earlier civilizations that existed before the last Ice Age that ended around 9,700 B.C. (see his work Forgotten Civilizations)

17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

God then brings us back to the original one He was using this parable of Satan's rebellion for, i.e., Pharaoh of Egypt. What would happen if you just loosely read parts of this Ezekiel 31 Chapter, and missed those pointers to Satan about that old world? You'd probably just think God was teaching about the idea of flesh kings. You'd miss a huge mystery though.