The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Lambano]

You may not want to believe that God poured out His wrath on His Son…

Ah, yes. “I was really p!$$ed off at those humans, so I killed my kid, and now I feel a lot calmer and can forgive those humans.”

We’d lock up a human father who did that.

 

[Lambano]

If God did not pour out His righteous anger on sin at the cross, then there is no justice and no Gospel.

How in the world does punishing an innocent man in place of the guilty count as “justice”?

How is an abstract power like “Sin” punished by killing a man who has no sin?

Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory doesn’t make sense when you drill down into it. It’s just abstract symbolism.

 

[bdavidc]

Ah, yes. “I was really p!$$ed off at those humans, so I killed my kid, and now I feel a lot calmer.”

We’d lock up a human father who did that.

That kind of statement is blasphemous. You’re mocking the Gospel of Jesus Christ with twisted, carnal logic. The Bible says “The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18). Jesus wasn't “killed out of rage,” He “gave himself a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:6). God judged sin at the cross so that sinners could be forgiven. Mock it all you want, but unless you repent, you will answer to the same God you’re scorning (Hebrews 10:29–31).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How in the world does punishing an innocent man in place of the guilty count as “justice”?

it satisfies Justice.

Its no different than a father volunteering to take the death penalty in place of his daughter. so the daughter could be set free

How is an abstract power like “Sin” punished by killing a man who has no sin?

The wage of sin is death.

Atonement Theory doesn’t make sense when you drill down into it. It’s just abstract symbolism.

Its reality

Hop can the blood of bulls and goats take sin? Yet according to the law. it was required.

Jesus was the lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.

either someone suffered death in your place or you will suffer your own wage of sin for eternity in hell

 

[bdavidc]

How in the world does punishing an innocent man in place of the guilty count as “justice”?

How is an abstract power like “Sin” punished by killing a man who has no sin?

Atonement Theory doesn’t make sense when you drill down into it. It’s just abstract symbolism.

That’s not how the Bible presents atonement, and your objection shows a failure to grasp both the seriousness of sin and the holiness of God. Jesus was not just an innocent man, He is the eternal Son of God, willingly taking the place of the guilty to satisfy divine justice. Isaiah 53:5 says, “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him.” That is not abstract symbolism, that is substitution. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” God’s justice demanded a perfect sacrifice, and only Jesus met that requirement. Romans 3:25–26 says God set forth Christ “to be a propitiation through faith in his blood… that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” That means the cross is where justice and mercy meet. Your problem isn’t with logic, it’s with rebellion. You don’t get to redefine justice when the Judge of all the earth has already declared what it is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ah, yes. “I was really p!$$ed off at those humans, so I killed my kid, and now I feel a lot calmer and can forgive those humans.”

We’d lock up a human father who did that.

You know nothing about God or the justice system. Maybe you are into the liberal justice system where the guilty do not have to pay for their crimes?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That’s not how the Bible presents atonement, and your objection shows a failure to grasp both the seriousness of sin and the holiness of God. Jesus was not just an innocent man, He is the eternal Son of God, willingly taking the place of the guilty to satisfy divine justice. Isaiah 53:5 says, “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him.” That is not abstract symbolism, that is substitution. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” God’s justice demanded a perfect sacrifice, and only Jesus met that requirement. Romans 3:25–26 says God set forth Christ “to be a propitiation through faith in his blood… that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” That means the cross is where justice and mercy meet. Your problem isn’t with logic, it’s with rebellion. You don’t get to redefine justice when the Judge of all the earth has already declared what it is.

sadly universalists can not see this. They think a perfect God will just let everyone out of hell free.

 

[Lambano]

You know nothing about God or the justice system. Maybe you are into the liberal justice system where the guilty do not have to pay for their crimes?

Maybe you’re into a justice system where the innocent have to pay for the crimes of the guilty?

Hey, as long as somebody gets punished, justice is served. Guilt or innocence doesn’t matter.

 

[St. SteVen]

But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

May it never be! If that were so, how could God judge the world? (Romans 3:5-6)

Part of the problem in understanding this is what we assume about judgement. (evaluation)
We assume it means punishment. And in some cases that it means eternal punishment.

We know that there will also be rewards. And that even those whose works burn up completely will be saved.

[

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Maybe you’re into a justice system where the innocent have to pay for the crimes of the guilty?

No I am into a justice system where a person who LOVES the guilty can CHOSE to die in their place.

Hey, as long as somebody gets punished, justice is served. Guilt or innocence doesn’t matter.

Thats justice. SOMEONE has to pay.

look up the word redemption.

Look up the law.

its obvious you do not understand or believe the word of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Part of the problem in understanding this is what we assume about judgement. (evaluation)
We assume it means punishment. And in some cases that it means eternal punishment.

We know that there will also be rewards. And that even those whose works burn up completely will be saved.

[

the wage of sin is death.

God told Adam, in the day you eat of this tree, you will die

Adam died that day, we know by the way Adam changed completely in his knowledge of God. that the separation had occurred.

we must be born again, Its not an option. or a suggestion, it is a requirement.

John 3 is a universalist nightmare. because it requires one to look to the cross in faith to be saved, or continue to deny, and remain condemned

 

[St. SteVen]

aionios = eon = age

One age precedes the next.

Ephesians 2:6-8 NIV
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

[

 

[Lambano]

Thats justice. SOMEONE has to pay.

Fascinating what passes for justice in here. “I don’t care who committed the murder as long as SOMEONE gets hanged.”

 

[Lambano]

Look up the law.

Here’s what Torah says:

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fascinating what passes for justice in here. “I don’t care who committed the murder as long as SOMEONE gets hanged.”

Justice is justice

if a Judge (in this case God) declaims a penalty or determines a judgment on a crime. then that judge determines what is just and what is not.

If that judge does not carry out that judgment, then that Judge is not a righteous judge.

the judgment on sin is spiritual death.

If you do not like Gods justice. Tell that to God.

But mark my word. If you do not agree with Gods justice. this will not spare you from Gods justice..

 

[Lambano]

No I am into a justice system where a person who LOVES the guilty can CHOSE to die in their place.

Now you’re getting closer to the truth. That is what righteousness looks like. But don’t call it “justice”, because it isn’t.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here’s what Torah says:

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16

here is what the law says

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Paul confirms this in the book of galations.

Galations 3: 10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

How are we redeemed from this curse?

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

Again, you do not have to like it. That does not make it null and void.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Now you’re getting closer to the truth. That is what righteousness looks like. But don’t call it “justice”, because it isn’t.

It is justice.

If someone loves you and takes your judgment in your place so you can be set free. Then justice is served.

Your far from truth man, I fear for your very soul

 

[Lambano]

This is what substitution looks like:

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Galatians 2:20.

Christ identified with our sin in His death. We are to identify with Him in our lives.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is what substitution looks like:

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Galatians 2:20.

Christ identified with our sin in His death. We are to identify with Him in our lives.

No it is not what substitution looks like

You are dead my friend, You are seperated from God.

God came became man and lived a life free of sin (he kept the law. hence was never under the curse of the law)

and in doing so. he became the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world. He suffered out of perfect love in your place. so you could be made right with him, Be born again, and be restored to a relationship with the creator.

You think God is just going to forgive you. You are dead wrong..