The Wrath...of God Or Of Satan?

[whirlwind]

Revelation 6:12 ( 666 ) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


6:13-17 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Stars of heaven are God’s saints…some shall fall to his deception during this time. They will no longer be those that dwell in heaven but shall dwell on earth. (spiritually dwell while still living physically).

Who does “his wrath” pertain to? It is the wrath of the same one causing the stars of heaven (God’s saints) to fall, to the same one causing the world to believe it is the time of “the wrath of the Lamb.” Deception! Instead of the Lamb it is…..

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

We must know it is a time of great deception or we will be among the “stars of heaven” that fall to earth. He clearly tells us whose time it is for it is written….​

7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The servants shall be sealed DURING the great tribulation of Satan!​

7:4-9 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They are sealed to God during the great tribulation of Satan, for the seventh trumpet has yet to sound. The great tribulation is Satan's wrath. Should we fall and remain in that fallen state, as many will...we will experience the wrath of God.​

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[TexUs]

You can't use Revelation 12's events to back Revelation 6's events. This is a timeline.

Ask yourself who in Revelation 6 is opening the seals and setting these events into motion?

Additionally, the wrath described in 6:17 points back to the parties just mentioned in 6:16, not a new, third party:
"calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

 

[whirlwind]

You can't use Revelation 12's events to back Revelation 6's events. This is a timeline.

Ask yourself who in Revelation 6 is opening the seals and setting these events into motion?

Additionally, the wrath described in 6:17 points back to the parties just mentioned in 6:16, not a new, third party:
"calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

The opening of the seals doesn't "set these events into motion." Rather it tells us what is to happen before the events come about.

Please understand that those saying "the wrath of the Lamb," are those that are deceived...and there shall be many, as there are now.



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[TexUs]

I see what you're saying.
However you're making an assumption that that's the case. By reading the text there's no reason to believe it's Satan, tricking the people...

It seems your support hinges upon applying Revelation 12 to this, which you cannot do, because it's a timeline and Revelation 12 happens only after Revelation 6.

Read from Revelation 6 to Revelation 12. Do you notice how John starts each new "scene" with, "AFTER THIS"???

 

[bud02]

whirlwind I just got done posting some insight of my own about Rev 12 to an other member.
Perhaps we can reason together a bit.
http://www.christian...dpost__p__98689

 

[belantos]

A few notes...

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Revelation 6:12 ( 666 )
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Chapter and verse divisions are not part of the Greek text, these were created during the middle ages.

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6:13-17 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth​

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If the "start of heaven" are symbolic so should be other things mentioned. What about the fig tree, the figs, the wind? Or the mountains and islands?

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Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

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As you can see this verse clarifies that it is God's wrath that we are talking about.

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Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

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The time of great calamity is God's wrath, even is there are other angry beings around.

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till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

The servants shall be sealed DURING the great tribulation of Satan!​

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There is no such a thing as the "great tribulation of Satan". It is the time of "Jacob's trouble", hence the tribulation is of people, not God or Satan.

 

[whirlwind]

A few notes...

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Chapter and verse divisions are not part of the Greek text, these were created during the middle ages.

Yes I know however....God still had His hand in the designation of numbers. You will find numerical clues given throughout the Bible.

If the "start of heaven" are symbolic so should be other things mentioned. What about the fig tree, the figs, the wind? Or the mountains and islands?

Biblical mountains are symbolic of nations, hills of smaller countries. The wind is the spirit, the Ruach. Trees are, well perhaps it is best to allow Him to tell yhou what they are in the following verse.....

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.​

As you can see this verse clarifies that it is God's wrath that we are talking about.

No, if you read the OP you will see why that verse is stated. Those that are DECEIVED believe it is the time of God's wrath....it isn't.

The time of great calamity is God's wrath, even is there are other angry beings around.

No, His wrath is on those that take the mark of the beast, etc...during SATAN'S GREAT TRIBULATION. That happens after He sees who will and who will not remain true to Him during that time of tribulation.

There is no such a thing as the "great tribulation of Satan". It is the time of "Jacob's trouble", hence the tribulation is of people, not God or Satan.

Yes, the tribulation is what people experience but...it is Satan's time, his hour of temptation.



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I see what you're saying.
However you're making an assumption that that's the case. By reading the text there's no reason to believe it's Satan, tricking the people...

It seems your support hinges upon applying Revelation 12 to this, which you cannot do, because it's a timeline and Revelation 12 happens only after Revelation 6.

Read from Revelation 6 to Revelation 12. Do you notice how John starts each new "scene" with, "AFTER THIS"???

I don't understand your point TexUs.

The opening of the seals tell what will happen. In Revelation 6 the seals are being opened, the events are not happening.


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[TexUs]

I don't understand your point TexUs.

The opening of the seals tell what will happen. In Revelation 6 the seals are being opened, the events are not happening.

Yes. But what in Revelation 6 tells you it's Satan deceiving these people? Nothing does. You've made it up.

 

[whirlwind]

Yes. But what in Revelation 6 tells you it's Satan deceiving these people? Nothing does. You've made it up.

Who is the first rider on the white horse? It isn't Christ. That is the deception.


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[TexUs]

Who is the first rider on the white horse? It isn't Christ. That is the deception.

So you're assuming the mountains falling on the people were done by the rider on the white horse? Where in Revelation 6 is this ever stated?

 

[bud02]

The Wrath...of God Or Of Satan?

If you go back and look at the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, ect ect. we see a distinct pattern emerging from the judgments brought by God upon various peoples:

1. God declares an annihilation form of judgment to stamp out a cancer
2. The judgments are for public recognition of extreme sin
3. Judgment is preceded by warning and/or long periods of exposure to the truth and time to repent
4. Any and all ‘innocent’ adults are given a way of escape with their families; sometimes all given a way to avoid judgment via repentance or leaving a particular region. It should also be noted that expulsion from a land was the most common judgment, not extermination. This pattern goes all the way back to the ejection of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden (cf. Gen. 3:24)
5. Someone is almost always saved (redeemed) from the evil culture
6. The judgment of God falls

The truth is..... the wrath ...of God is the result Of Satan........period. ...its not a question? its a fact.

 

[whirlwind]

So you're assuming the mountains falling on the people were done by the rider on the white horse? Where in Revelation 6 is this ever stated?

No Texus...the mountains didn't fall on anyone. However, the deception of the rider on the white horse was the reason the deceived said, "mountains fall on us."



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[TexUs]

No Texus...the mountains didn't fall on anyone. However, the deception of the rider on the white horse was the reason the deceived said, "mountains fall on us."

How are you linking the first seal (white horse) with the sixth (asking for the Lord to relent)?

 

[whirlwind]

How are you linking the first seal (white horse) with the sixth (asking for the Lord to relent)?

What you are terming the "first seal" wasn't the first. It was listed first but wasn't the first. Instead it was "one of the seals." Which one? The sixth! What we were told about that rider is part and parcel of the sixth seal...foretelling of the event that will happen at the sixth trump, when there is "the noise of thunder."

Revelation 6:1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

6:12-17 And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

Remember, the moon turns to blood "before" the day of the Lord. Also, the "bow" carried by the first rider, the fake Christ, isn't a bow as in bow and arrow.



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[TexUs]

What you are terming the "first seal" wasn't the first. It was listed first but wasn't the first. Instead it was "one of the seals." Which one? The sixth!

Then where's the first seal?

Let's think about this logically. There's seven seals on the scroll. When you open ONE of them, what have you just opened? The first!

 

[whirlwind]

Then where's the first seal?

I don't know TexUs. Perhaps it is the first and sixth and because of that it isn't termed "the first seal." But, because it isn't called "the first seal," we need to take notice...something significant is being taught. As I said, the seals simply tell us what will happen, they aren't the actual event taking place. Was that one given first because of it's importance? I think so.

Let's think about this logically. There's seven seals on the scroll. When you open ONE of them, what have you just opened? The first!

One would certainly think so but...it's not in chronological order. :)



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[TexUs]

I don't know TexUs. Perhaps it is the first and sixth and because of that it isn't termed "the first seal." But, because it isn't called "the first seal," we need to take notice...something significant is being taught. As I said, the seals simply tell us what will happen, they aren't the actual event taking place. Was that one given first because of it's importance? I think so.





One would certainly think so but...it's not in chronological order. :)

There's no good reason to assume the first seal wasn't the first, according to what's written.
There's also no good reason to assume these seals aren't in order.

I have no problem with you believing this but please don't put it out there as Biblical.

 

[whirlwind]

There's no good reason to assume the first seal wasn't the first, according to what's written.
There's also no good reason to assume these seals aren't in order.

I have no problem with you believing this but please don't put it out there as Biblical.

It isn't me putting it out there. It is written. As it is written, it is for us to understand.


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[veteran]

whirlwind, you know we agree on several things about our Lord's Revelation in the 6 seals. But the stars thing, that's really a symbol for Satan's host because it's linked to the untimely figs metaphor.

The untimely figs is about the winter fig that grows in the winter and then falls off in the spring. Remember the two baskets of figs Jeremiah was shown, one good and another evil.

If you understand about false messiah's coming first, then that's a symbol for his coming, as a symbolic winter fig, because Christ's time of coming is associated with summer harvest.

About the wrath, that's about God's wrath upon the unjust and deceived who will fall to worship the false messiah. Christ pointed those out in Luke 23:27-30.


The 7 seals of Rev.6 are the seven signs of the end our Lord Jesus first gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13. Those seven signs are also the seven trumpets and seven vials of Revelation.

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind, you know we agree on several things about our Lord's Revelation in the 6 seals. But the stars thing, that's really a symbol for Satan's host because it's linked to the untimely figs metaphor.

The untimely figs is about the winter fig that grows in the winter and then falls off in the spring. Remember the two baskets of figs Jeremiah was shown, one good and another evil.

If you understand about false messiah's coming first, then that's a symbol for his coming, as a symbolic winter fig, because Christ's time of coming is associated with summer harvest.

Well, there are stars and then...there are stars. :)

Job 3:9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

Psalm 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.​

Stars/souls of light and stars/souls of darkness and we can include stars of "twilight," which I see as those folks sitting on the fence, teetering between the two forces. The host of the Lord or the host of Satan. The stars that fall are the stars of "heaven." The stars of darkness have already fallen.

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.​

They're falling around us all the time Veteran...falling into deception, falling from their rightful place in heaven. They love the Lord but still...they fall for the deception "if possible," and...it is possible.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Daniel 11:33-35 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.​

About the wrath, that's about God's wrath upon the unjust and deceived who will fall to worship the false messiah. Christ pointed those out in Luke 23:27-30.

Yes, God's wrath is on those that fall to deception...deception during the great tribulation.



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