There Exists No Scripture or Witness Jesus' Mother Is Able To Help Anyone.

[Nancy]

"To say that Mary, who bore the Son of God in her womb, is not special, is like saying the Ark of the Covenant was just another box. Oh sure, it carried the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s staff, and the Bread of the Presence, but so what? No big deal! Just another box. Nowhere does Scripture say the Ark of the Covenant was blessed “ABOVE” other boxes. Mary carried the Word of God in flesh, not in stone. Mary carried the eternal High Priest (Heb 4:14) Himself, not just the high priest’s staff. Mary carried the living Bread that has come down from Heaven (John 6:41), the bread which if you eat of it you will live forever (John 6:51), not just the bread that the Hebrews scooped up off the ground and ate and yet still died (John 6:49). So, if Mary isn’t more blessed than any other woman, then the Ark of the Covenant is just another box.

Oh, and then there’s the whole being impregnated by the Holy Spirit thing. That’s happened to lots of women, right? I mean, nothing special about that, is there? Nope…happens all the time. Think about this: Mary is the child of God the Father, she is the mother of God the Son, and she is the spouse of God the Holy Spirit – after all, the Holy Spirit impregnated her, so there has to be a marital relationship there, or that would mean Jesus was born out of wedlock. (They had a name for such children, and I don’t think anyone would want to apply that name to Jesus.) Can anyone else in the history of the world – past, present, or future – ever claim to have the same relationship with all three persons of the Trinity? Nah, God didn’t elevate Mary, “not even a little bit.”

Now, this whole thing about Mary being blessed “AMONG” women but not “above” women. Well, as my friend Bugs would say, “What a maroon.” Really?! I mean, “REALLY!?” Mary goes to visit her cousin El izabeth, and what happens that points to the absolute ordinariness of Mary? Well, first, Elizabeth’s baby, John the Baptist, leaps in his mother’s womb when what happens? When Elizabeth hears Mary’s voice. Has any similar occurrence ever been recorded in the Bible? Nope. So, that means the Word of God is telling us that Mary is quite ordinary, right?

Then, what happens next to point to Mary’s ordinariness? Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, exclaims with a loud cry, “Hey, you’re no more special than anyone else,” (Luke 1:42). At least, that is this person’s interpretation of what Elizabeth had to say. “Blessed are you among women,” actually means, “You’re nothing special among women.” Why would Elizabeth need to be filled with the Holy Spirit to tell Mary that she’s no different than anyone else? And why would Elizabeth have to exclaim this with a “loud cry?” Was that so the neighbors could all hear so that Mary wouldn’t get a big head or something?

According to this person, what’s going on in Luke, chapter 1, is that God sends an angel to Mary to tell her that she’s no different from anyone else, but, oh, by the way, Mary, you’re going to bear the Son of God in your womb. Then the Holy Spirit inspires Elizabeth to tell Mary she’s no different than anyone else. Yeah, it all makes sense to me now.


Two more things from Luke 1: 1) Why, if Mary is no one all that special, does Elizabeth say, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk 1:43). Elizabeth is saying that Mary, the mother of Elizabeth’s Lord, coming to visit her is apparently quite the honor. But why, if Mary is nothing special? 2) Mary says that “all generations will call me blessed.” Is there any other person that the Bible speaks of who will be called “blessed” for “all generations”? Nope. Yep, God nowhere elevates Mary, “not even a little bit.”
John Martignoni (Bible Christian Society)

We shall agree to disagree, YES she is honored among woman, yeas she was surely used for the greatest happening but she was still a VESSEL used of God, she is not divine!

 

[Mungo]

We shall agree to disagree, YES she is honored among woman, yeas she was surely used for the greatest happening but she was still a VESSEL used of God, she is not divine!

Of course she is not divine.
Why are you suggesting some people might think she is?

 

[amadeus]

Josh27 spome the truth, and I am happy you agree with him. Yes, Mary was blessed and full of grace, but so what? I too, am blessed and full of grace. So are you if you accept Jesus.

Mary is special because of what she was given, but not special above any other believer.

I would say rather that Mary was special before God and men because of what she did with what she was given.

 

[Nancy]

Of course she is not divine.
Why are you suggesting some people might think she is?

People kneel before her statue and pray to her, they say she is a perpetual virgin, and somehow not in need of a savior.

 

[Grailhunter]

Apparently, the Bible you are speaking of has the added phrase "full of grace" in Luke 1:28, whereas the original manuscripts do not contain those words.

Traditions of men through religious activity are an affront to God, and always lead to error. It is a grievous sin to add the ideas of men to the text of God's Word.

Well you have happened upon an interesting topic as you may suspect it has been discussed before throughout the years.
The original debate started (Circa 1600 A.D.) with the accusation that when St. Jerome Translated the Greek scriptures into Latin, that He had translated the Greek word as grace instead of favor. (Vulgate Circa 400 A.D. Beginning in 382 A.D. So it is at least an old discussion.

Now the accusation whether it had an intent or just was spawned by confusion is impossible to know.

Why the possible confusion? The Greek words for favor and grace have similar definitions, but they are different words and it is this point that settles the debate. Fortunately I have a volume of books that have the actual photo copies of the oldest texts available. The word that appears in Luke 1:28 is χαριτόω...written in English spelling κεχαριτωμενη. Using Greek grammar "full of Grace" would be more accurate than graceful for obvious reasons. The Greek word for favor that leans more toward favorite or like is the word associated with Christ as in Luke 2:52 indicating He grew in favor with God and man and the grace we obtain from Christ. The word used for Miriam only appears twice in the actual scriptures denoting its uniqueness and indeed two verses later, verse 30 the word that does mean favor is also associated with Miriam.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #5487 and three Lexicons agree.
charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.

Under the circumstances...what is going on and what would happen, it is not too much to determine this is divine grace. Yahweh by character would pick the most pure, most beautiful, without blemish.

 

[Jared42]

WHY was Mary "found" "highly favorable"...?

Because she was naturally born without sin?
Uh, no. Nothing in Scripture teaches Mary was excluded from being naturally born in sin.

Wrong Idea.

Jesus' Word as the Word of God is recorded in Heaven. As well, He authored the Book of Life, which might have your name written it.

Can you praise Him for that? No?

The Highlight...
IS WHO she was to marry...
(And in Jewish Tradition:
A BONDED agreement was established between the Brides father and the Groom.
Modernly, we call that agreement, a proposal of marriage, a PROMISED acceptance, and thereafter called an engagement.
In Jewish Tradition, a BREAKING of the PROMISE to Wed, required a Divorce, which would Disolve the PROMISE to meet and "Wed in the House" and in the presence of the Grooms father.
According to Jewish Tradition:
The Bride Prepares Herself and Waits for her Groom to "signal" her, he is about to arrive at "her fathers house", to take her to the Grooms father house, to be Wed.
The Grooms "signal" is sounded,
The Readied VAILED Bride, goes to her Groom.
The FEAST is prepared at the Grooms fathers house.
The GUESTS (are also "signaled", called, notified, to come to the Wedding Feast).
....Some guests agree to come...some do not.
....Some Not invited guests, attempt to come, but are sent away.

POINT being....the JOINING in marriage...
A man and a woman...is they Become ONE FLESH.
The Grooms father, becomes in Wed-LOCK, the Brides Father.
.... The Grooms father, in Joseph's case, IS OF the HOUSE OF DAVID.
... The Signifiance IS...God established an "everlasting Throne" for the House of David, (David himself having been seated on THAT throne, and can ONLY be thereafter LAWFULLY occupied, by a "LAWFUL descendent" of king David).
JESUS, being revealed, as a descendent of The HOUSE of David, has FULFILLED, the Lawful requirement, to be seat ON that established "everlasting throne". (Pss 89:37)

Virgin. A Womb not defiled by a mans member or seed. Revealing, an undefiled womb forthwhich suitable for the Body God prepared to be revealed coming forth from.

Scripture parallels...and reveals;
Who the Groom is, Who the Bride is, How she is Prepared, How she is Signaled, How she is taken to the fathers house, Who the guests are, the Feast, (which traditionally lasted days) the unveiling Wedding ceremony, the home (kingdom) the Groom has prepared....

Praise and Glory to God.
His WAYS are perfect.
He Perfects us IN Him.

Taken

I agree with your intention here, totally but, there is a scripture that say's that she was full of grace, and that she is blessed among woman:

Luke 1:28
28 "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

How many Bible Books did Jesus write?
I'll give you a clue. ZERO!

 

[farouk]

I agree with your intention here, totally but, there is a scripture that say's that she was full of grace, and that she is blessed among woman:

Luke 1:28
28 "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

It means that she was the recipient of grace, not its dispenser...

 

[Mungo]

People kneel before her statue and pray to her

People ask her for her to pray for them. Surely you ask people to pray for you..

they say she is a perpetual virgin,

Why does that suggest she is divine?

and somehow not in need of a savior.

Scripture clearly says she needed a saviour (Lk 1:47). The Catholic Church teaches that but says that, by the graciousness of God she was saved at the moment of her conception.

 

[Mungo]

The word that appears in Luke 1:28 is χαριτόω...written in English spelling κεχαριτωμενη. Using Greek grammar "full of Grace" would be more accurate than graceful for obvious reasons.

Agreed. Just to add a couple of points to that:

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of grace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

 

[Grailhunter]

Agreed. Just to add a couple of points to that:

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of grace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Agreed.
The grammar pushed for full of grace or highly favored, but full of grace being more consistent with the use of the word.
There were some knowledgeable people debating it but some how they over looked the categorical nature of the word and the fact that it only appeared in the scriptures twice. And there are discussions on its second use in the scriptures.

 

[Jared42]

People ask her for her to pray for them. Surely you ask people to pray for you..


Why does that suggest she is divine?



Scripture clearly says she needed a saviour (Lk 1:47). The Catholic Church teaches that but says that, by the graciousness of God she was saved at the moment of her conception.

Obviously the Catholic church has not read what Scripture says.

 

[Grailhunter]

Obviously the Catholic church has not read what Scripture says.

LOL I mean the humor of it! It's kind like when Kentucky Fried Chicken commercials say that burger joints should not make chicken sandwiches....LOL Protestants should not comment on Divine things after the biblical era.

The story of Miriam doing the work of the Lord starts after the biblical era...so why would you look in the scriptures? Bible only... Fundamentalism...I call it the safety seat...the most important message in the Bible is salvation...the details are many but that is the most important thing...

The era of the Protestant reform....protest churches. The Catholic Church had went off the deep end...nose dive. The basics are the most important...so the Protestants went back to the basics...it is what it is.

But as far as understanding and watching Christianity unfolding, it is tunnel vision. The Bible tells of the first 65 years of Christianity. In the real there has been 2000 years of Christianity and a very active God. There are those interested in the whole of Christianity as I am one. The Bible is but one chapter of Christianity ...the basics...all good...but it is what it is.

Fundamentalism is a corral of sorts, a fence that hinders knowledge of God and Christianity....but to some degree it is safer.... ignorance is bliss...keep the safety belt on.

Miriam has made thousands of visitations and has done hundreds of miracles....eye witnessed by thousand of Christians. What good is Christian witnesses? Ask the Apostles. What is written? The Law was written...Christianity goes beyond that. The Jewish religion was static...Christianity is dynamic...and has been for 2000 years.

Is there anything wrong with Bible only? No. Those that do not believe in Miriam's work on earth will go to heaven just the same as those that do believe. There is no requirement for Christians to recognize or believe in Divine activity after the close of the biblical era. In fact you have cessationists that do not believe in miracles after the biblical era at all.

But on the other side of the coin...I wonder if there is a bias...the objection to a divine female...the desire to keep females as second rate participants in Christianity. And it has worked, look at the number of female on this forum....international forum but very few members and guests are female.

The Bible only! But they do not practice that. They will peer over the fence at times and if they see something they like they will drag it back over the fence and incorporate it into their beliefs and pretend it is in the Bible. A good example of this is wedding ceremonies. There is no requirement for wedding ceremonies anywhere in the Bible...Old or New Testament. But the Protestants like wedding ceremonies...history proves they were the first to require them. Same thing goes for slavery. So Bible only is not a hard and fast rule. They do reach over the fence sometimes.