There is NO proof text in scripture.

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Ronald David Bruno

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Ruth Graham once said, "I own about twenty different English versions of the Bible ... and they all say the same thing!" Generally and fundamentally speaking, she's right concerning the way, the truth and the life.
Just pick out one verse, go to Biblegateway.com, and then access all versions of the Bible. You can see about fifty. Then read what they all say - pretty much the same with slight variations. Of course one word can throw things off a bit. I did a study on the words relative to the doctrine of Eternal Hell: Hell, Hades, Abyss, eternal, everlasting, destruction, punishment, perish, fire, etc. It was necessary to examine each word because I believe this traditional doctrine is questionable. And I have settled it in my mind. I could be wrong, but it won't affect my salvation if I am. NEXT.
There is confusion over certain doctrines and it is our due diligence to seek out the truth through prayer and study. We exhaust our minds and abilities at times and need to go to scholarly commentaries. God made us with different levels of intelligence and so some of us will only grasp the basics. Mentality retarded kids can be saved by simple and fundamental truths through paraphrased Bible stories. And so that is enough for them. Praise God!
The Bible does say we don't need a teacher, because we have the Holy Spirit. True, but if you've only been a Christian for a few years I think it is wise to listen to sermons and teachings of the scholars who have been taught by the Holy Spirit for decades and see what they have to say. I often go to John MacArthur or RC Sproul. Sometimes I don't agree but a different perspective helps.
It is true that we should not proof text a whole doctrine based on one text. No, we have to examine the context. The whole Bible is in harmony, so scripture supports scripture and we should be able to find many supportive scriptures before we are convinced of the truth of that doctrine . Confirmation cannot be settled by one text or one word.

I got saved by reading not a very literal word for word translation Bible, but a paraphrased version called "The Book". Later, once I found a good church, I used more literal versions: KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASB, RV, NIV, etc. So when there is question in my mind about a doctrine or particular scripture, I will just examine all the other versions.. I even like YLT.
They have all been translated by highly educated scholars, who were also spirit filled and led to accomplish God's purpose!
I do not have a PhD in Christian theology, Hermeneutics, Hebrew or Koine Greek languages, so I must rely on these versions. I look up words but don't really exegete scriptures. THE WORK HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE FOR ME.
I understand that some people pretend to have this ability, expertise and proceed to try to impress others when they are just puffed up amateurs. "Ummm ... yes ... but the Greek meaning of that word states that ... bla, bla ... and so bla, bla, bla ..." Yeah, thank you, but I will examine the various versions I have written by scholars who actually have sorted out the words already and best translation - so I don't need your amatuer bla, bla, blas.
It helps to examine words and maybe get a richer meaning. But I think the point Ruth was making was that the Spirit will eventually guide you to all truth. We won't understand it all, but will understand enough for His purpose for each of us.
 
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liafailrock

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I know it's different for different people. But as it turned out for me, I first heard from God and then went to the scriptures. Which, in doing so the one confirmed the Other, and vice versa.

Just make sure that you are not using the scriptures for confirmation bias based on what you heard first. They are there for doctrine and instruction regarding righteousness amongst other things.
 

ScottA

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you said

That's good!

Yes, just because it says so, unless it is confirmed by God, these things are just so many words.

so I assume you deny scripture is the word of God!
Thanks for the clarification...but NO, scripture is indeed the word of God.

But He has made His own statements about it:

That He confused it along with all language, that it is spirit, and must be spiritually discerned. Which makes it foolishness to the natural man and unbelievers, a confounding stumbling block to the wise, and much study is wearisome to the flesh.
 

ScottA

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Just make sure that you are not using the scriptures for confirmation bias based on what you heard first. They are there for doctrine and instruction regarding righteousness amongst other things.
I appreciate what you are saying, but I am indeed bias of my direct encounter with God. Given the choice of the Author or His Book, I choose the Author as number One, and His book as number two.
 
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BarneyFife

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‘This is why the OP says not to focus too much on these details but try to get the essence or the point of a passage or a chapter.
Problem is, lots of people depend on certain laws of hermeneutics rather than the OP's opinion. Just sayin'. Folks who value orthodoxy are gonna value orthodoxy. It (naturally and sincerely) frightens some people to trust in a system that is not organized and predetermined. Their concerns are worth considering, IMO. I feel like I'm able to think outside of the box a little, but I'm not too crazy about coloring outside lines. I've held the same basic Theology for over 30 years, but I've had to re-evaluate many of the finer points. :)
 

ScottA

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I can see lots of people going in many diffeent directions, firmly believing they are spirit led and wandering further astray than ever before.
.
In such a case, it is good to hear that God has it all covered:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
 

Cooper

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In such a case, it is good to hear that God has it all covered:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
Actually, the verse you quoted implies a weeding out. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 “Murmur not among yourselves” said Jesus.

And you think the Father will draw those who deny Jesus and worship at the Tower of Babel?

jesus said seek the kingdom of heaven, not Satans kingdom hall.
.
 
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BarneyFife

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Ruth Graham once said, "I own about twenty different English versions of the Bible ... and they all say the same thing!" Generally and fundamentally speaking, she's right concerning the way, the truth and the life.
Just pick out one verse, go to Biblegateway.com, and then access all versions of the Bible. You can see about fifty. Then read what they all say. Pretty much the same with slight variations. Of course one word can throw things off a bit. I did a study on the words relative to the doctrine of Eternal Hell: Hell, Hades, Abyss, eternal, everlasting, destruction, punishment, perish, fire, etc. It was necessary to examine each word because I believe this traditional doctrine is questionable. And I have settled it in my mind. I could be wrong, but it won't effect my salvation if I am. NEXT.
There is confusion over certain doctrines and it is our due diligence to seek out the truth through prayer and study. We exhaust our minds and abilities at times and need to go to scholarly commentaries. God made us with different levels of intelligence and so some of us will inly grasp the basics. Mentality retarded kids can be saved by simple and fundamental truths through paraphrased Bibles stories. And so that is enough for them. Praise God!
The Bible does say we don't need a teacher, because we have the Holy Spirit. True, but if you've only been a Christian for a few years I think it is wise to listen to sermons and teachings of the scholars who have been taught by the Holy Spirit for decades and see what they have to say. I often go to John MacArthur or RC Sproul. Sometimes I don't agree but a different perspective helps.
It is true that we should not proof text a whole doctrine based on one text. No, we have to examine the context. The whole Bible is in harmony, so scripture supports scripture and we should be able to find many supportive scriptures before we are convinced of the truth of that doctrine . Confirmation cannot be settled by one text or one word.

I got saved by reading not a very literal word for word translation Bible, but a paraphrased version called "The Book". Later, once I found a good church, I used more literal versions: KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASB, RV, NIV, etc. So when there is question in my mind about a doctrine or particular scripture, I will just examine all the other versions.. I even like YLT.
They have all been translated by highly educated scholars, who were also spirit filled and led to accomplish Gid's purpose!
I do not have a PhD in Christian theology, Hermeneutics, Hebrew or Koine Greek languages, so I must rely in these versions. I look up words up but don't really exegete scriptures. THE WORK HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE FOR ME.
I understand that some people pretend to have this ability, expertise and proceed to try to impress others when they are just puffed up amateurs. "Ummm ... yes ... but the Greek meaning of that word states that ... bla, bla ... and so bla, bla, bla ..." Yeah, thank you, but I will examine the various versions I have written by scholars who actually have sorted out the words already and best translation - so I don't need your amatuer bla, bla, blas.
It helps to examine words and maybe get a richer meaning. But I think the point Ruth was making was that the Spirit will eventually guide you to all truth. We won't understand it all, but will understand enough for His purpose for each of us.
Excellent post, RDB. :D
 
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BarneyFife

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And you think the Father will draw those who deny Jesus and worship at the Tower of Babel?

jesus said seek the kingdom of heaven, not Satans kingdom hall.
.
I don't think flaming denominations clarifies the issue much, if at all. Just sayin'. :eek::rolleyes:
 

TEXBOW

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To understand Scripture you need to take note of to whom things are addressed.

Jesus is speaking to the apostles not to everyone. He is speaking to those who "have been with me from the beginning". That promise is directed to the leaders of his Church not everyone.



That is preceded by verse 13 which tells us Paul is addressing those "who have heard the word of truth". Where did they get the word of truth from? Not directly from God but from those who preached to them. As Paul writes in Rom 10:14,15,17
"But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? …… So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ".



But note what Paul writes before he says that in vs 8-10:
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
It comes through the Church



The key to understanding this is vs 13
"And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit."
Paul is saying HE is imparting (i.e. teaching) what HE has been taught by the Spirit. HE is interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
I know it's hard for you. I know it's important to you to hang on to Apostolic Succession and that if you admit the role of the Holy Spirit it trumps the authority of the leadership in the Catholic Church. All I can say to you is that many of us who have the helper does not allow a man to have authority over the Holy Spirit. I know it's foolishness to you.
 
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Mungo

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I know it's hard for you. I know it's important to you to hang on to Apostolic Succession and that if you admit the role of the Holy Spirit it trumps the authority of the leadership in the Catholic Church. All I can say to you is that many of us who have the helper does not allow a man to have authority over the Holy Spirit. I know it's foolishness to you.

Right. Can't argue with what I wrote so reduced to insults.
 

Mungo

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Please, your objection to the role of the Holy Spirit is proof that you think this understanding is foolishness.

The role you apply to the Holy Spirit in unscriptural.
 

ScottA

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Actually, the verse you quoted implies a weeding out. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 “Murmur not among yourselves” said Jesus.

And you think the Father will draw those who deny Jesus and worship at the Tower of Babel?

jesus said seek the kingdom of heaven, not Satans kingdom hall.
.
You described chaos. I was just saying (and included scripture) that God has got this--in other words, you don't need to have such a dismal outlook.

And the you lost me. What was your point in this last comment?
 

amigo de christo

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I appreciate what you are saying, but I am indeed bias of my direct encounter with God. Given the choice of the Author or His Book, I choose the Author as number One, and His book as number two.
just know and understand that when your so called Author disagrees with the AUTHOR who INSPIRED that BOOK
it means it cometh of satan not THE AUTHOR , NOT GOD .
 
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