There is NO proof text in scripture.

[theefaith]

Jn 14:6 does not prove that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life!

Jn 11:25 does not prove that Jesus is the resurrection and the life!

heb 13:8 does not prove that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever!

ya; whatever!

 

[ScottA]

This is just a fancy way of saying "use human reasoning to determine what you want the Bible to say and then use it as a means of confirming your beliefs". I'm here to tell you that biblical Christianity doesn't work that way, no matter how much you want it to. The inspired text tells Christians what they're supposed to believe and practice, not the other way around.

The inspired text also does a better job at conveying doctrine than any translated bible ever could. That's why it was inspired by God and all of the translated bibles weren't. So when you tell people to dumb themselves down by not studying or investigating the meaning of words God inspired, i have no problems informing you that i will soundly ignore your suggestion. God's words are the ones i will live by, not yours'.

You seem to have missed the point.

First you seem to agree, then you seem to disagree.

As the inspired word of God, I am suggesting that one stick with the spiritual means by which it was inspired, rather than mull over the literary properties and the teachings of men in order to find agreement with ones own preconceived ideas.

For instance, if we read any passage in the scriptures that we don't quite understand, we have a chose of personally defining it to mean any number of things by assumption or conjecture by a host of literary possibilities, by believing whatever someone else has to say about it, or by asking God. I recommend asking God and letting Him spiritually respond, as oppose to turning to ones own understanding of what can be found by literary means. Which I do and also recommend, because the words are spirit, not literature.

Alternatively, instead of looking first to men's definitions of the words in study, if one first turns to God for the answer in the spirit, and then looks for confirmation in His word (even by word study) and finds it...he has sought God first, which is the proper order of gaining knowledge.

 

[ScottA]

Jn 14:6 does not prove that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life!

Jn 11:25 does not prove that Jesus is the resurrection and the life!

heb 13:8 does not prove that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever!

ya; whatever!

That's good!

Yes, just because it says so, unless it is confirmed by God, these things are just so many words.

Of course those passages are confirmed by God within the rest of scripture. But if one is doubtful about any one passage, why should the same word be any more convincing. An argument can certainly be made for or against. The whole of scripture is not only disputable, but is in fact disputed. Thus, it is only the Author who can confirm the validity of scripture--and He does, but the only unequivocal means is by the Spirit.

And that is what I recommend.

 

[TEXBOW]

That you "know" the truth from God is fantasy.

Mungo, Mungo, Mungo. Until you understand the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of a born-again believer your going to struggle with this. Until you are born again your spirit is dead. Jesus said he would send a helper and he did. He helps us understand his word. Does everyone have a strong walk in the Spirit, uh no. Many do though and he guides us and convicts us when our flesh gets in the way of our understanding. Our flesh can make mistakes but the Holy Spirit does not. We pray and seek a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ, we mature as followers. We grow, our faith strengthens, our wisdom increases, our knowledge expands, our soul has a stronger bond with our new Spirit than the flesh. Some have refused the Spirit for rituals and a bond with the fallible man.

 

[theefaith]

So it’s not the word of God?

 

[amadeus]

Amen Bro!

I am SOoooo happy to see you brother , your daily presence on this site has been missed greatly , ( if only by me. ...But I am sure by others too. )

Many blessings....H

You are not the only one, who missed him, Helen, and @ScottA is not the only one missed here... but we cannot keep even good things always the same.

 

[amadeus]

So it’s not the word of God?

No one was tagged or named, so to whom is your question addressed and what is the antecedent of "it"?

 

[post]

This is just a fancy way of saying "use human reasoning to determine what you want the Bible to say and then use it as a means of confirming your beliefs". I'm here to tell you that biblical Christianity doesn't work that way, no matter how much you want it to. The inspired text tells Christians what they're supposed to believe and practice, not the other way around.

the OP does come across like this might be what's being described, @ScottA

if i already had doctrine and truth in mind before i opened the Book, how would i know whether i was eisegeting ((reading my own opinion into what's written)) instead of exegeting ((being taught truth and doctrine from what the text says))?

for example if i thought aready 'anything other than universal salvation is unfair' -- i could certainly kinda skip anything in the Bible that argues with that, and interpret bits here and there to affirm my presuppositions. if i thought 'Christ is just a man' i could ignore everything that points to His deity, and just read the things establishing His humanity. if i thought 'salvation is by my own willpower and strength of character to attain' before i really spent any time reading scripture, i could kind of breeze past everything establishing our insufficiency and His grace, and 'affirm' to myself through things talking about the law and spurring one another to good works that was the case.

people can do such things with any belief - not with intellectual honesty, of course, not if they really dig deeply into the Word, all of it, reading and studying and meditating on it, praying and reconciling difficult things together. the Bible relates coherent, unambiguous truth - but it is also extraordinarily deep and complex, like no other writing in all of history. understanding it correctly takes work, and faith, and perserverance and patience, and humility. it takes time, and effort - it takes God opening our eyes to see and our minds to know.

all that said of course without the Spirit, the Bible is a confusing jumble or riddles and enigmas and stories that seem oddly disconnected. it's spiritually discerned, and His words are spirit and life. we all know that - all of us who believe.
so what i think you are primarily trying to say, @ScottA, i agree with: we as humans in our vanity can easily become carried away with intricasies in the text to the point that we don't even recognize what the text is saying, and put it into practice. we need to be walking in the Spirit, not just learning about Him.

thank you for this thread, in that regard =]

 

[post]

I recommend asking God and letting Him spiritually respond, as oppose to turning to ones own understanding of what can be found by literary means. Which I do and also recommend, because the words are spirit, not literature.

it is God's will that before we enter our rest, we work and gather and prepare twice as much as an ordinary days work, so that when we do rest, our house is in order, and we take no concern with how we will be clothed or fed.

so i would reccomend that, while praying constantly for understanding and light, we ought to spend our time studying, searching the scripture looking for it testifying of Christ, seeking what things are righteous and true, with all due effort and every diligence. as a workman not ashamed, eager to know Him better so that you may please Him better.

i have discovered in my life at least, that God intends for me to put my time and thoughts to use seeking Him and waiting on Him: it is evident this is so, because as often as i may ask, He does not tend to simply hand me enlightenment on a silver platter without my patience for it to be prepared, and my reaching out my hand to take hold of it when it is time that i may receive it.
the servant He finds awake and ready to open the gate for Him when He returns, He will bless. is it not so written?

 

[ScottA]

the OP does come across like this might be what's being described, @ScottA

if i already had doctrine and truth in mind before i opened the Book, how would i know whether i was eisegeting ((reading my own opinion into what's written)) instead of exegeting ((being taught truth and doctrine from what the text says))?

for example if i thought aready 'anything other than universal salvation is unfair' -- i could certainly kinda skip anything in the Bible that argues with that, and interpret bits here and there to affirm my presuppositions. if i thought 'Christ is just a man' i could ignore everything that points to His deity, and just read the things establishing His humanity. if i thought 'salvation is by my own willpower and strength of character to attain' before i really spent any time reading scripture, i could kind of breeze past everything establishing our insufficiency and His grace, and 'affirm' to myself through things talking about the law and spurring one another to good works that was the case.

people can do such things with any belief - not with intellectual honesty, of course, not if they really dig deeply into the Word, all of it, reading and studying and meditating on it, praying and reconciling difficult things together. the Bible relates coherent, unambiguous truth - but it is also extraordinarily deep and complex, like no other writing in all of history. understanding it correctly takes work, and faith, and perserverance and patience, and humility. it takes time, and effort - it takes God opening our eyes to see and our minds to know.

all that said of course without the Spirit, the Bible is a confusing jumble or riddles and enigmas and stories that seem oddly disconnected. it's spiritually discerned, and His words are spirit and life. we all know that - all of us who believe.
so what i think you are primarily trying to say, @ScottA, i agree with: we as humans in our vanity can easily become carried away with intricasies in the text to the point that we don't even recognize what the text is saying, and put it into practice. we need to be walking in the Spirit, not just learning about Him.

thank you for this thread, in that regard =]

That is a great explanation.

And thank you for mentioning "Walking in the Spirit", I was about to do the same. LOL surely there must be a translation out there that has those words translated as "Walk in the Library."

 

[ScottA]

it is God's will that before we enter our rest, we work and gather and prepare twice as much as an ordinary days work, so that when we do rest, our house is in order, and we take no concern with how we will be clothed or fed.

so i would reccomend that, while praying constantly for understanding and light, we ought to spend our time studying, searching the scripture looking for it testifying of Christ, seeking what things are righteous and true, with all due effort and every diligence. as a workman not ashamed, eager to know Him better so that you may please Him better.

i have discovered in my life at least, that God intends for me to put my time and thoughts to use seeking Him and waiting on Him: it is evident this is so, because as often as i may ask, He does not tend to simply hand me enlightenment on a silver platter without my patience for it to be prepared, and my reaching out my hand to take hold of it when it is time that i may receive it.
the servant He finds awake and ready to open the gate for Him when He returns, He will bless. is it not so written?

Indeed it is so written. Except, it is He who waits, and we need not wait, for he stands at the door.

 

[post]

LOL surely there must be a translation out there that has those words translated as "Walk in the Library."

tee heehee

XD

 

[GEN2REV]

God has confused all language at Babel--even all scripture...which has not been rescinded.

Most of the debates here and many of the differences of belief and division among so-called Christians, are over the various translations of original languages that have been confused by God to make it foolishness to the natural man and unbelievers. And most have fallen headlong into the trap, a trap that was never meant for you/us.

Get off the word studies, and get in the Spirit. Walk in the Spirit.

The scriptures then, are not to serve as a proof text of what you think or what was taught, but should instead be a means of confirmation. The rule is NOT to test every word, but rather to "test every spirit."

Let me say it again: Get off the word studies. They are of no value to proving doctrine.

Getting in the Spirit and having the Spirit is absolutely important, but not important enough to minimize the importance of scripture. Word studies are extremely important; I'd even go as far as to say paramount.

If we had the original prophetic scriptures of God in Aramaic, nothing would be more important. The fact that translations into other languages have occurred gives naysayers fodder to discredit scripture, but those who diligently research just how those translations came about will not be swayed in the least.

John chapter 6 makes it very clear that Jesus' Words are absolutely essential to a healthy Christian spirit.

Just consider these verses alone:

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives spiritual life); ... the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life."
John 6:63
"Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."
John 6:68

It doesn't get more profound than that.

You should hang out with theefaith. He pushes hard for this same nonsense.

Not sure if you came up with this concept yourself or if you heard it elsewhere, but it is a doctrine of demons - sorry to say.

I personally know an old friend whom I've been working with for years to teach Him about God and the Bible. He is a long time drug user who can't seem to get away from it and believes that God teaches him the Bible without him having to actually read it. God as my witness. I only use him as an example because addicts are directly influenced by the spirit realm (demons). But that's certainly not the only way one could be misled to believe false doctrine.

Not claiming it's intentional on your part, but ANY level of diminishing the value and importance of the words of scripture is an attempt at discrediting God's Word as a whole and an attack on the Gospel Truth. Period.

 

[ScottA]

Getting in the Spirit and having the Spirit is absolutely important, but not important enough to minimize the importance of scripture. Word studies are extremely important; I'd even go as far as to say paramount.

If we had the original prophetic scriptures of God in Aramaic, nothing would be more important. The fact that translations into other languages have occurred gives naysayers fodder to discredit scripture, but those who diligently research just how those translations came about will not be swayed in the least.

John chapter 6 makes it very clear that Jesus' Words are absolutely essential to a healthy Christian spirit.

Just consider these verses alone:

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives spiritual life); ... the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life."
John 6:63
"Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."
John 6:68

It doesn't get more profound than that.

You should hang out with theefaith. He pushes hard for this same nonsense.

Not sure if you came up with this concept yourself or if you heard it elsewhere, but it is a doctrine of demons - sorry to say.

I personally know an old friend whom I've been working with for years to teach Him about God and the Bible. He is a long time drug user who can't seem to get away from it and believes that God teaches him the Bible without him having to actually read it. God as my witness. I only use him as an example because addicts are directly influenced by the spirit realm (demons). But that's certainly not the only way one could be misled to believe false doctrine.

Not claiming it's intentional on your part, but ANY level of diminishing the value and importance of the words of scripture is an attempt at discrediting God's Word as a whole and an attack on the Gospel Truth. Period.

Even the original scriptures are one step away for the Source...but by your own words you as much as call the Source "nonsense" and seem to have something against getting things directly from God. Who would do that?

I know who.

Apparently it is by no coincidence that you go on to talk about demons.

Gotcha!

 

[MatthewG]

God has confused all language at Babel--even all scripture...which has not been rescinded.

Most of the debates here and many of the differences of belief and division among so-called Christians, are over the various translations of original languages that have been confused by God to make it foolishness to the natural man and unbelievers. And most have fallen headlong into the trap, a trap that was never meant for you/us.

Get off the word studies, and get in the Spirit. Walk in the Spirit.

The scriptures then, are not to serve as a proof text of what you think or what was taught, but should instead be a means of confirmation. The rule is NOT to test every word, but rather to "test every spirit."

Let me say it again: Get off the word studies. They are of no value to proving doctrine.

Reading your post reminded me of this scripture, ScottA.

English Standard Version
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Berean Study Bible
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Though of course, I believe Paul is writing in aspect of the Jewish people because Gentiles did not have the Old Testament. Only Jewish people did. However it is still useful for us, to help us endure, and find encouragement, that we might have hope in trusting God.

There is one language all believers have in common by having faith in the life, death, burial, and resurrection. That is the spirit, living by the spirit of Christ with-in, also the holy spirit.

 

[ScottA]

Reading your post reminded me of this scripture, ScottA.

English Standard Version
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Berean Study Bible
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Though of course, I believe Paul is writing in aspect of the Jewish people because Gentiles did not have the Old Testament. Only Jewish people did. However it is still useful for us, to help us endure, and find encouragement, that we might have hope in trusting God.

There is one language all believers have in common by having faith in the life, death, burial, and resurrection. That is the spirit, living by the spirit of Christ with-in, also the holy spirit.

Right on!

And, by all means, we should continue in the scriptures--they are the words of Christ, which will not pass away. They are spirit.

The error comes when men quench the Spirit, as did the Pharisees with the law.

 

[post]

Indeed it is so written. Except, it is He who waits, and we need not wait, for he stands at the door.

if He stands at the door knocking, doesn't that mean He is outside?

 

[keithr]

That you could possibly know that...is quotable. If nothing else, it says a lot about you. Fruit. Thanks!

You can never know what people are thinking until they plainly state it. I thought Mungo was going to say that you need to check what you believe you heard from God against the written word of God, in case it wasn't actually from God that you heard it.

Note that it isn't just God and Jesus who can put words and visions into our minds. Consider Joseph Smith and Mohammad, who started the Mormon and Islamic faiths. It wasn't God who was speaking to them, nor an angel from God.

1 John 4:1 (WEB):

(1) Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.​

Acts 17:11 (WEB):

(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.​

Gal 1:8 (ESV):

(8) But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.​

 

[theefaith]

Mungo, Mungo, Mungo. Until you understand the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of a born-again believer your going to struggle with this. Until you are born again your spirit is dead. Jesus said he would send a helper and he did. He helps us understand his word. Does everyone have a strong walk in the Spirit, uh no. Many do though and he guides us and convicts us when our flesh gets in the way of our understanding. Our flesh can make mistakes but the Holy Spirit does not. We pray and seek a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ, we mature as followers. We grow, our faith strengthens, our wisdom increases, our knowledge expands, our soul has a stronger bond with our new Spirit than the flesh. Some have refused the Spirit for rituals and a bond with the fallible man.

the helper is sent to the apostles, the leaders of the church, they teach and rule the nations

not some spiritual anarchy
I can do anything I want
I can believe anything I want

 

[theefaith]

No one was tagged or named, so to whom is your question addressed and what is the antecedent of "it"?

#43