There is no Second Coming or Rapture

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Benoni

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The Lord is Coming let me get this straight, no on is saying this; for the Lord is returning many ways.

BUT no where in God's Word is there any mention of the word "rapture", or the word "second coming".

Raptured is a man made religious term that is not scriptural; it is an escapism doctrine that makes God’s people complacent and spiritual lazy. The "rapture" teaching was NOT taught by the early Church, it was NOT taught by the Church of the first centuries, it was NOT taught by the Reformers, IT WAS NOT TAUGHT BY ANYONE (except a couple Roman Catholic theologians) UNTIL ABOUT THE YEAR 1830!

At the time of the Reformation the early Protestants widely held and Were convinced that the Pope was the supreme individual embodiment and personification of the spirit of antichrist, and the Roman Church the Harlot System of Rev. 17. This understanding was responsible for bringing millions of believers out of the Roman Catholic religious system.

It therefore became expedient for certain Romish theologians to turn the attention of the people away from the Papacy, and this they endeavored to a counter-interpretation to that held by the Protestants. This new scheme of prophetic interpretation became known as FUTURISM. Rather than viewing the drama of the book of Revelation spiritually and historically, they would consign it all to a brief period of time at the end of the age. It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera who, in the days of the Reformation, first taught that all the events in the book of Revelation were to take place literally during the three and a half years reign of the Antichrist away down at the end of the age. Thus Ribera laid the foundation of a system of prophetic interpretation of which the Secret Rapture has now become an integral part.

Later, Emmanuel Lacunza, also a Jesuit priest, built on Ribera's teachings, and spent much of his life writing a book titled "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty." Lacunza, however, wrote under the assumed name of "Rabbi Ben Ezra," supposedly a learned Jew who had accepted Christ as his Saviour. With Jesuit cunning he thus conspired to get his book a hearing in the Protestant world - they would not even permit it in their homes coming from a Jesuit pen - but as the earnest work of a "converted Jew" they would consume it with avid interest! Within the pages of this elaborate forgery Lacunza taught the novel notion that Jesus returns not once, but twice, and at the "first stage" of His return He "raptures" His Church so they can escape the reign of the "future Antichrist." His book was first published in Spanish in the year 1812 and soon found its way onto the shelves of the library of the Archbishop of Canterbury in London, England.

Now enter the name of Edward Irving. Born in Scotland in 1792, Irving became one of the most eloquent preachers of his time. In 1828 his open-air meetings in Scotland drew crowds of 10,000 people. His Church in London seated one thousand people and was packed week after week with a congregation drawn from the most brilliant and influencial circles of society. There were some among them who by prophetic declaration announced that the Lord was coming soon, and this idea became prominent in their prophetic utterances and teachings. Out of those prophetic declarations some began to study the scriptures in the light of a physical, literal coming of the Lord. Up until that time the coming of the Lord was understood as a coming of the Lord TO His people, and IN His saints, and there was no sense of His fleshly coming. Irving discovered Lacunza's book and was deeply shaken by it, in fact, fell in love with it, translated it into English, and it was published in London in 1827. And at this very time Irving heard what he believed to be a Voice from heaven commanding him to preach the Secret Rapture of the Saints. Then Irving began to hold Bible Conferences throughout Scotland, emphasizing the coming of Jesus to rapture His Church.

About this same time there began the emergence of a new movement which came to be known as the "Plymouth Brethren." The Brethren movement had its beginning in Dublin in 1825 when a small group of earnest men, dissatisfied with the spiritually lethargic condition that prevailed in the Protestant Church in Ireland, met for prayer and fellowship. Soon others joined the fellowship and associated groups sprang up in various places. Though the movement had its beginning at Dublin ' , it was Plymouth, England that became the center of their vast literature outreach, thus the name !'Plymouth Brethren" became attached. Although there was interest from the start in prophetic subjects, the center of interest was on the body of Christ as an organism and the spiritual unity in Christ of all believers - in reaction to the deadness and formalism of the organized church systems and the ecclesiastical Heirarchy. A man by the name of John Nelson Darby was the leading spirit among the Plymouth Brethren from 1830 onward. Darby was from a prosperous Irish family, was educated as a lawyer, took high honors at Dublin University, then turned aside, to his father's chagrin, to become a minister.

Thus Irving and Darby were contemporaries, though associated with different spiritual movements. Another series of meetings were in progress at this time, a group of seeking Christians were meeting in the castle of Lady Powerscourt for the study of Bible prophecy. Many clergymen attended, and quite a few who were Irvingites. The Irvingites came to the meetings obsessed with the ideas of the "Secret Rapture" and the future Antichrist, imbibed from the Jesuit Lacunza's book. J.N. Darby and the other Brethren leaders were invited to these meetings and became participators in them. It was there that he was introduced to the Jesuit teaching of the Secret Rapture and the futurist interpretation of prophecy, as well as the famous book by Rabbi Ben-Ezra, or, actually, Jesuit priest Emmanuel Lacunza! Darby was himself a prolific writer and from that time a constant stream of propaganda came from his pen. His writings on biblical subjects number over 30 volumes of 600 pages each. Darby developed and organized "futurism" into a system of prophetic teaching called "dispensationalism." Darby' s biographers refer to him as "the father of dispensationalism." And the crown jewel in the kingdom of dispensationalism is, of course, the so-called SECRET RAPTURE
 

gumby

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Im glad you realize the truth ben, rapture was all based around this mentilly disturbed child and two preachers had all the sudden a secret rapture from god..............sounds like the message was from satan.

God bless :)
 

lecoop

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I guess Paul must have had too much Pizza, when he wrote that those that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. huh?

Why do you preach against the word of God? Do you have any idea how dangerous that is?

Coop
 

Nomad

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Benoni said:
BUT no where in God's Word is there any mention of the word "rapture", or the word "second coming".

I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, but Christ's coming again is clearly taught in Scripture. 1 Thessalonians 4 is a prime example of this. Also, our word "rapture" comes from the Latin "rapiemur." This is the word Jerome used in the Latin Vulgate to translate the Greek word "harpazo" meaning "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17. So while the exact terminology "rapture" and "second coming" are not in our English text, the concepts themselves are. For example:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up (*harpazo*) (*rapiemur*) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Heb 9:28 ...so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
 

Benoni

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How can it be dangerous these words are "not scriptural"? If I am preaching against the Word of God please point it out, but seeing neither of these words are in the Word of God how can I be preaching against the Word of God? I am point out this fact, you are the one who is believing something that is not in the Word of God.

"We ... shall be caught up together with them... to MEET the Lord IN THE AIR: and SO shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes. 4:17).

The word "meeting" (apantesin, Grk.) appears four times in the New Testament (Mat. 25:1,6; Acts 28:15; I Thes. 4-17), and carries the thought of a CONFERENCE, an ASSEMBLY, or a CONVOCATION.

It signifies much more than merely coming into contact with our Lord and standing in His presence. In essence, we are call to a HOLY CONVOCATION, to participate in the high activities of a HOLY ASSEMBLY that is "caught up" into a high place in God, a sphere of exaltation, influence, and authority.

All through the scriptures it is common to find natural elements of the earth that represent spiritual realities. Truly, we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the "air," and the word " air" is AER in the Greek, meaning "to breathe," and its usage throughout the New Testament consistently indicates the "atmosphere" surrounding the earth.

The natural minded Christian is looking to be suddenly snatched up into the air, away from the earth, to inhabit mansions on golden streets somewhere in the blue beyond.

The spiritual Christian looks to be LAID HOLD UPON BY A HIGHER POWER and lifted into a realm from which He can do something for this world and God's people he has not called.



I guess Paul must have had too much Pizza, when he wrote that those that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. huh?

Why do you preach against the word of God? Do you have any idea how dangerous that is?

Coop

 

Benoni

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I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, but Christ's coming again is clearly taught in Scripture.


The first line I wrote was, “The Lord is Coming let me get this straight, no on is saying this; for the Lord is returning many ways”. But I am posting it here for you to reread my statement.

I know the word ‘rapture’ come from the Roman Catholic language of Latin, You can quote Jerome all you want but all I see is more Baby-lon and no scripture. I know what the Bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Hebrews 9:28. Seeing you mentioned Hebrews 9:28. lets dig a little deeper.

Can not the expression "second coming" be justified by the closing verse of the ninth chapter of Hebrews? The passage reads, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation" (Heb. 9:28). This verse can be rightly divided only when taken within the context of the verses preceding it. The writer says, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:24-26).

Some have tried to find three "appearings" in these verses, but there are only two. And the words are taken by unthinking people as though "appear the second time," or "second appearing" were somehow the equivalent of, or a synonym for, the "second coming." But this is merely playing on the language of our English version. The two "appearings" in this passage not even refer to the so-called "first coming" of the Christ in Bethlehem's manger, or His "second coming" from heaven at the end of this age. As we shall see later, the Lord has had MANY APPEARINGS on this earth. And here TWO of those many appearings are contrasted, the one with the other, so that one is "first," and the other "second." Here we have His "first" appearing: IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US."

In the types of the Old Testament the atonement for sin was not accomplished with the killing of the animal, and the sprinkling of the blood on the altar, the people and the tabernacle; not until the High Priest presented himself in the Most Holy Place, in the presence of God with the blood of the sacrifice. This was a type of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. It was not accomplished nor completed with the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross. Before there could be any efficacy to His sacrifice He had to PRESENT HIMSELF IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD by His own blood to make atonement for our sins. This is what this verse is speaking about; Christ entered the Holiest, not of the earthly tabernacle, but into heaven itself, presenting Himself, appearing before the presence of God, in the eternal realm of spirit, as the bearer of our redemption. This verse says that He APPEARED in the presence of God for us. This is the first of the two appearings here contrasted, but certainly NOT His first appearing unto men! As we follow on in this scripture we are told that the Christ needed not to offer Himself often as did the High Priest of the Old Covenant, once a year with the blood of others. Only once did He need to offer Himself, as we read, "But now ONCE in the end of the age has He APPEARED (in heaven - vs. 24) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Once He has appeared, the first time, IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US!

Verse twenty-eight speaks of another APPEARING, even a second appearing in connection with our salvation. It begins with these words, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many (referring to verses 24 and 26 where it says He entered the Most Holy Place in heaven and appeared in the presence of God for us)". Now He appears again the second time: "And unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Most Christians believe this verse in referring to what is called the "second coming" of the Lord, a visible appearing at the end of this age. This is not alluding to such a coming at all. The word actually employed is wholly different. It is a general word, and it is the very word used with reference to His manifestation to His disciples after His resurrection. It occurs four times in I Cor. 15:5-8 where it is translated "was seen". The Lord appeared to many following His resurrection. The Lord Jesus appeared to the apostle Paul entirely apart from His two appearings set forth in Hebrews chapter nine. The Lord appeared unto Paul in the form of a bright light above the brightness of the noon-day sun. Jesus manifested Himself to Paul in the form of light to commission him to the work of the gospel. And the Lord said., "Rise, and stand upon your feet: for I have APPEARED unto you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I WILL APPEAR unto you" (Acts 26:16).

And further, the definite article must be omitted: "So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, to them that wait for Him, unto salvation." That is how the Greek text reads. The statement is not prophetic, but doctrinal; and the doctrine in question is not the so-called "second coming," but the PRIESTHOOD! It is not the prediction of an event to be realized by those who shall be alive on earth at the time of the end, but the declaration of a truth and a fact to be realized by every elect member of the body of Christ, no matter in what dispensation his sojourn upon earth may fall.
Our Lord Jesus Christ appears a second time to those who LOOK FOR HIM, who diligently seek for Him and follow after Him; not any more as a sin offering appearing in heaven for us, but in the mighty manifestation of His power usward, UNTO SALVATION. And this salvation is the work of our great and wonderful High Priest. This same wonderful truth is set forth in Heb. 7:25 in these words, "Wherefore He is able also to SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them."


This phrase is given by Phillips as "He can save fully and completely."

Young's Literal, "He is able to save to the very end."

Amplified, "He is able to save to the uttermost - completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity."

The Greek points out that He is able to save COMPLETELY. He is able to save ALL THE WAY, even unto the valley of the shadow of death. He is able to save altogether, NOTHING LACKING - complete salvation with no flaw, complete as only a holy and omniscient and omnipotent God knows completeness and perfection.

.


Nomad said:
Benoni said:

BUT no where in God's Word is there any mention of the word "rapture", or the word "second coming".


I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, but Christ's coming again is clearly taught in Scripture. 1 Thessalonians 4 is a prime example of this. Also, our word "rapture" comes from the Latin "rapiemur." This is the word Jerome used in the Latin Vulgate to translate the Greek word "harpazo" meaning "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17. So while the exact terminology "rapture" and "second coming" are not in our English text, the concepts themselves are. For example:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up (*harpazo*) (*rapiemur*) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Heb 9:28 ...so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
 

Benoni

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Thessalonians 4:17
Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.


Can't get more "up" than that!



Up:

You can get a lot more up then you are trying to portray. Where is your up, how high, in the white fluffy clouds; how many piper cadets, C130s, DC10, stealth bomber etc fly those that heavens everyday above our heads. We all should know by now that there is no heaven in the clouds; but there is a realm of God higher then we are on this earthy realm and yes that makes it up.

Clouds:

Your basing your understanding on up as a literal up. The up where God dwells is not geographical, nor physical as we know it but spiritual. Spiritual is eternal and is far more real then the earth realm, the white fluffy cloud realm. Your white fluffy clouds are glorious and beautiful but pitiful compared to the clouds described in the Bible. Moses was a natural man that God used to show us something out side of the realm of the natural.
 

Benoni

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And what is the promise? The promise, wonderful promise! is of HIS COMING. "I WILL COME in to HIM, and will sup with him and he with me." Ah, is this the so-called "second coming" of Christ? It is not the one men preach about or that Christians expect and wait for, but, beloved saints of God, it IS THE COMING OF CHRIST, nonetheless. He does not come once and in just one way. He comes and comes and comes in the progressive revelation of HIMSELF!

Clearly that there are more than two comings of Christ mentioned in the Bible, and that trying to apply all the scriptures on the Lord's coming to just two comings, has caused a lot of confusion and erroneous teaching and has caused the Lord's people to miss completely some of the most marvelous aspects of God's great and wonderful purposes.

On the day of Pentecost Christ came again as the Comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of Truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He DWELLS WITH YOU, and shall be IN YOU. I will not leave you comfortless (orphans): I WILL COME UNTO YOU. Yet A little while, and the world sees me no more; but YOU SEE ME: because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I IN YOU" (Jn. 14:16-20).

In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS.

In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.

In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.

In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.

In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.

In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.

In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.

In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.

In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.

In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.

In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.

In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.

In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING.

In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.

In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.

In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.

In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.

In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.

In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.

In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to bewrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING

So please do not limit Jesus return to two comings.
 

Nomad

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Benoni,

Your posts are extremely confusing. So basically you're saying that "caught up" doesn't mean "caught up?" Do you not realize that "rapture" means the same as "harpazo" (caught up)?

You also seem to be spiritualizing Christs second coming. What would you like to do with Acts 1:11?

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."
 

Miss Hepburn

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Well, I personally love reading your posts, Benoni.
And thank you so much for that list of how He comes!!
:) Miss Hepburn
 

Benoni

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Benoni,

Your posts are extremely confusing. So basically you're saying that "caught up" doesn't mean "caught up?" Do you not realize that "rapture" means the same as "harpazo" (caught up)?

You also seem to be spiritualizing Christs second coming. What would you like to do with Acts 1:11?

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."
Ing

The confusion is because you are carnalizing the return of the Lord and are offended I see it spiritually, besides how can I spiritualize something that is not even in the Word of God. I simply pointed out these words do not exsist in God's Word. Like I said the word second coming and rapture comes from man imaginations and not God’s Word to which you agreed with me showing us all the word rapture comes from the Roman Catholic Latin (Vulgate).

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Where is heaven, is the first question I will ask you? We both agree it is up. But where is up? The moon, the stars, the milky way, or some far away natural galaxy beyond human sight or reason? Sorry the answer to the question is not “up’ literally but up spiritually, up on a higher plane, a higher realm, God dwells everywhere from the highest heaven, to the lowers Hades but the most important place God dwells is with in us.

There a lot of spiritual examples in all these verses in reference to the Lord‘s return and Acts 1:9-11 is pregnant with spiritual examples. So let me start with one word and lets see what God’s Word declares.

Cloud
That cloud intrigues me. "And a CLOUD received Him out of their sight." "Received Him out of" is one word in the Greek meaning "to take under". It signifies to take up by placing one's self underneath, in the style of a hiker carrying a backpack, or as a waiter holds a tray. It is one of Luke's medical terms. Weymouth in his translation puts it thus: the cloud "closing beneath Him, hid Him from sight."

Don't tell me that was the sort of cloud which spills the rain and from which the lightning flashes. No! No! That Cloud is the Cloud of the Glory of God, the Shekinah, described in Eze. 1:4 as "a great cloud ... and brightness."

A cloud is perhaps the best known Eastern symbol for the swirling, lustrous radiance which hides "the face of His throne" (Job 26:9). The Hebrew term translated "cloud" in Ezekiel is AWNAUN, a word which is occasionally used of a nimbus or thundercloud, but which is repeatedly used for THE GLORY CLOUD OF JEHOVAH. The first appearance of AWNAWN, "cloud," as a technical term for the Shekinah is found in Ex. 13:21 wherein we read, "And the Lord went before (the Israelites) by day in a pillar of a CLOUD, to lead them the way." It was this "cloud" which Ezekiel saw while he was with the exiles in Babylon by the Chebar Canal.

The Glory Cloud is the "chariot" of Jehovah, composed of myriads of celestial beings, the spirits of just men made perfect, the armies which are in heaven, the heavenly hosts of the spiritual world. "Behold," declares the prophet, "the Lord rideth upon THE CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it (the cloud)" (Isa. 19:1).

Just as the CLOUD "covered the mount" at the giving of the Law (Ex. 24:15-18), so, also, it "covered the tabernacle" when it was completed. "And the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle, and Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the Cloud abode thereon, and the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle" (Ex. 40:34-35). Many years later, when Solomon had finished the work of the temple, "The Cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the Cloud; for the Glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord" (I Kings 8:10-11). It will be observed that "The Cloud" and "The Glory" are equated as synonymous, for The Cloud "filled the house" and The Glory "filled the house" are stated in parallel fashion.
This is the Cloud of HIS GLORY into which the triumphant saints of God are to be licaught up." "And the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the CLOUDS" (I Thes. 4:16-17). There is no definite article in the Greek text before the word "clouds," to make it THE CLOUDS, which would thus identify them as the clouds of the lower atmosphere surrounding our earth. Where the identifying article is missing, it speaks of quality, or is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word "cloud" it often used of a large body of individuals in the Greek Classics, and it is also so used in Heb.12:1 speaking of that great "cloud of witnesses" which surround us. Thus our "catching up" is being brought into that higher spiritual sphere, where we shall become one with that whole great cloud of witnesses, that "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). What a glorious UNION of forces when those of our generation upon the earth, and all those overcoming saints of all former ages who have gone on before us, are joined together, becoming an indestructible force in the full, total and complete manifestation of His majesty, power and glory at the manifestation of the sons of God!

 

Benoni

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Well thank you for your “manchild” spirit that has ears to hear. You know GOD is not a sexist as many in the world try to portray Him. He is a God who hides His deep awesome secrets from the wise and the prudent and gives them to babes. A man spiritually speaking, is always spiritual in nature for as you see with only one exception of God’s name are always masculine.

On the other hand you have the soulish with feminine names i.e. Church, Babylon etc.

Then you have faith as a child which is a far cry from a childish faith which is normally the case. So a manchild is a mature spiritual person with ears that hear as a child. Praise God for His hidden mysteries.

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

I love the above verse and find such an awesome deepness in God in things that are hidden. I find the Bible full of hidden mysteries (Greek Sacred Secret) and what amazes me are some many brothers and sisters in the Lord actually believe there are no mysteries in scripture.

Miss Hepburn said:
Well, I personally love reading your posts, Benoni.
And thank you so much for that list of how He comes!!
:) Miss Hepburn
 

Miss Hepburn

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Benoni said:
Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter
I love the above verse and find such an awesome deepness in God in things that are hidden. I find the Bible full of hidden mysteries (Greek Sacred Secret) and what amazes me are some many brothers and sisters in the Lord actually believe there are no mysteries in scripture.

No hidden mysteries? That's all there is !! ( I exaggerate.)
And on top of that - how could my little brain understand the depths, the nuances of everything written...the symbolism!! It is very exciting to hear of other interpretations.

One of my favorite verses - is after years of being with the disciples day and night - around midnight campfires -taking only 3 to His Transfiguration---at His Last Supper (and He knew it was) --even THEN He says - There are many things I want to tell you - but you can not grasp (bear) them now. (!!) John 16:12

WHAT? After all this time you guys are still not able to grasp what He wants to reveal to you, still? After 3 of you have even seen who He really is without His fleshly garments?? How exciting a sentence - the promise of more insights ---perhaps best for man in the 21st c?
I don't know. Very thrilling.

:) Miss Hepburn
 

Jon-Marc

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It's true that the word "Rapture" is not in the Bible, but the teaching is--as stated in 1 Thess. 4. There will be a "calling away" of all the saints (those who are born again), and I will be among them. Praise God!
 

Glenn

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Benoni said:
Benoni,

Your posts are extremely confusing. So basically you're saying that "caught up" doesn't mean "caught up?" Do you not realize that "rapture" means the same as "harpazo" (caught up)?

You also seem to be spiritualizing Christs second coming. What would you like to do with Acts 1:11?

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."
Ing
The confusion is because you are carnalizing the return of the Lord and are offended I see it spiritually, besides how can I spiritualize something that is not even in the Word of God. I simply pointed out these words do not exsist in God's Word. Like I said the word second coming and rapture comes from man imaginations and not God’s Word to which you agreed with me showing us all the word rapture comes from the Roman Catholic Latin (Vulgate).

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Where is heaven, is the first question I will ask you? We both agree it is up. But where is up? The moon, the stars, the milky way, or some far away natural galaxy beyond human sight or reason? Sorry the answer to the question is not “up’ literally but up spiritually, up on a higher plane, a higher realm, God dwells everywhere from the highest heaven, to the lowers Hades but the most important place God dwells is with in us.

There a lot of spiritual examples in all these verses in reference to the Lord‘s return and Acts 1:9-11 is pregnant with spiritual examples. So let me start with one word and lets see what God’s Word declares.

Cloud
That cloud intrigues me. "And a CLOUD received Him out of their sight." "Received Him out of" is one word in the Greek meaning "to take under". It signifies to take up by placing one's self underneath, in the style of a hiker carrying a backpack, or as a waiter holds a tray. It is one of Luke's medical terms. Weymouth in his translation puts it thus: the cloud "closing beneath Him, hid Him from sight."

Don't tell me that was the sort of cloud which spills the rain and from which the lightning flashes. No! No! That Cloud is the Cloud of the Glory of God, the Shekinah, described in Eze. 1:4 as "a great cloud ... and brightness."

A cloud is perhaps the best known Eastern symbol for the swirling, lustrous radiance which hides "the face of His throne" (Job 26:9). The Hebrew term translated "cloud" in Ezekiel is AWNAUN, a word which is occasionally used of a nimbus or thundercloud, but which is repeatedly used for THE GLORY CLOUD OF JEHOVAH. The first appearance of AWNAWN, "cloud," as a technical term for the Shekinah is found in Ex. 13:21 wherein we read, "And the Lord went before (the Israelites) by day in a pillar of a CLOUD, to lead them the way." It was this "cloud" which Ezekiel saw while he was with the exiles in Babylon by the Chebar Canal.

The Glory Cloud is the "chariot" of Jehovah, composed of myriads of celestial beings, the spirits of just men made perfect, the armies which are in heaven, the heavenly hosts of the spiritual world. "Behold," declares the prophet, "the Lord rideth upon THE CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it (the cloud)" (Isa. 19:1).

Just as the CLOUD "covered the mount" at the giving of the Law (Ex. 24:15-18), so, also, it "covered the tabernacle" when it was completed. "And the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle, and Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the Cloud abode thereon, and the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle" (Ex. 40:34-35). Many years later, when Solomon had finished the work of the temple, "The Cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the Cloud; for the Glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord" (I Kings 8:10-11). It will be observed that "The Cloud" and "The Glory" are equated as synonymous, for The Cloud "filled the house" and The Glory "filled the house" are stated in parallel fashion.
This is the Cloud of HIS GLORY into which the triumphant saints of God are to be licaught up." "And the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the CLOUDS" (I Thes. 4:16-17). There is no definite article in the Greek text before the word "clouds," to make it THE CLOUDS, which would thus identify them as the clouds of the lower atmosphere surrounding our earth. Where the identifying article is missing, it speaks of quality, or is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word "cloud" it often used of a large body of individuals in the Greek Classics, and it is also so used in Heb.12:1 speaking of that great "cloud of witnesses" which surround us. Thus our "catching up" is being brought into that higher spiritual sphere, where we shall become one with that whole great cloud of witnesses, that "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). What a glorious UNION of forces when those of our generation upon the earth, and all those overcoming saints of all former ages who have gone on before us, are joined together, becoming an indestructible force in the full, total and complete manifestation of His majesty, power and glory at the manifestation of the sons of God!

Sounds like preterism has infiltrated your thinking, they all preached His return bodily not just spiritualy, Christ did as well Matthew 25:31. The One New Man and his hope is something everyone overlooks in the fuss about when, what, who, and were, neither have the who right.
Seperate the hopes, the prophetic kingdom from the mystery kept hid in God the heavenly calling, Christ coming in glory is not the same as appearing with Him in glory, the mystery temple the new creation has no prophetic link to the Acts period hope of Israel, or calling, so trying to attach the hope of the kingdom promised since and from the foundation to the body called before the foundation is futile, it doesn't belong together, but most think they are in the Acts period in doctrine so fuss on you partaking gentiles of the remnant of Israel.

Glen.
 

Nomad

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Benoni said:
Like I said the word second coming and rapture comes from man imaginations and not God’s Word to which you agreed with me showing us all the word rapture comes from the Roman Catholic Latin (Vulgate).

No... as I pointed out "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of "harpazo" which is in Scripture. This isn't open for debate. It's a fact. Whether Latin or Greek, "caught up" means "caught up" and all of your spiritualizing doesn't change that. Also, there is no such thing as "Roman Catholic Latin." Latin is a language that's just as legitimate as Greek--your hang-up notwithstanding. Oh, and once again you twist Scripture into a pretzel. Acts 1:11 clearly teaches that Jesus was taken up bodily and will return the same way he went. Scripture is not a wax nose for you to shape any way you like. You would do well to remember that before you respond with yet another long twisting turning post that completely destroys the objectivity of God's word.
 

Benoni

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You need to read what has already been posted, there are many comings of the Lord in scripture.
Jon-Marc said:
It's true that the word "Rapture" is not in the Bible, but the teaching is--as stated in 1 Thess. 4. There will be a "calling away" of all the saints (those who are born again), and I will be among them. Praise God!
 

Benoni

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I put no stake in the Roman Catholic language in scripture, NONE…It has no place in the seeking truth of the Bible, on the other hand the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic were the language of the Bible the Latin is the language of Babylon. You are right it is not open for debate; Latin is the language of the false church. As I said all you’re carnalizing of God's Word brings a true spiritual word down to man understanding instead of reaching to God's spirit to reveal what God has written in His divine Word. Not the polluted words of Romanism.

If anyone is twisting God’s Word it is you and you Babylon understanding. Your whole rapture theory is based on Rome and a carnal understanding of a few verses. I cannot help but notice your whole theory is based on a few verses and a few man made Catholic words and you totally ignore all the other verse and verse that declare the many coming of our Lord.



Nomad said:
Benoni said:
Like I said the word second coming and rapture comes from man imaginations and not God’s Word to which you agreed with me showing us all the word rapture comes from the Roman Catholic Latin (Vulgate).

No... as I pointed out "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of "harpazo" which is in Scripture. This isn't open for debate. It's a fact. Whether Latin or Greek, "caught up" means "caught up" and all of your spiritualizing doesn't change that. Also, there is no such thing as "Roman Catholic Latin." Latin is a language that's just as legitimate as Greek--your hang-up notwithstanding. Oh, and once again you twist Scripture into a pretzel. Acts 1:11 clearly teaches that Jesus was taken up bodily and will return the same way he went. Scripture is not a wax nose for you to shape any way you like. You would do well to remember that before you respond with yet another long twisting turning post that completely destroys the objectivity of God's word.
Nomad said:
Benoni said:
Like I said the word second coming and rapture comes from man imaginations and not God’s Word to which you agreed with me showing us all the word rapture comes from the Roman Catholic Latin (Vulgate).

No... as I pointed out "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of "harpazo" which is in Scripture. This isn't open for debate. It's a fact. Whether Latin or Greek, "caught up" means "caught up" and all of your spiritualizing doesn't change that. Also, there is no such thing as "Roman Catholic Latin." Latin is a language that's just as legitimate as Greek--your hang-up notwithstanding. Oh, and once again you twist Scripture into a pretzel. Acts 1:11 clearly teaches that Jesus was taken up bodily and will return the same way he went. Scripture is not a wax nose for you to shape any way you like. You would do well to remember that before you respond with yet another long twisting turning post that completely destroys the objectivity of God's word.
 

Benoni

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I am not a “preterism”, I am a Christian Universalist and it is obviously you are trying to decipher what I believe and you have no clue. Yes Jesus will turn bodily but even then it will be a spiritual body. I have no idea what you are trying to say with all this preconceived religious garbadygoop. There are many returns of the Lord what do you say we look at each one of these comings individually without all this religious hoopla.


If you want an answer to a Physical nature in His coming; many will be glad to give it to you here; I just do not see it that simple.

He never left; His spirit is in everyman on this earth; and his kingdom Christ has set in motion the power of the seed of His life, and it will not fail to grow until it has changed the entire universe into part of His kingdom.

I posted this earlier but here it is a gain. So much of God’s Word is symbolic in nature; it is hidden from man and his religion. There are so many ways Jesus is coming in Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.


He Coming as a Thief
And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, and as a thief.
There is a coming of the Lord as a thief. That is not a coming or an appearing that is before the public. It is not an unveiling before the multitudes. A thief does not go down to the public square with a trumpet and say, "I'd like to make an announcement. At three o'clock in the morning I'm going to visit the wealthiest man in this town and I'm going to steal everything I can get my hands on." He doesn't do that. He comes at the darkest part of the night. He comes with softest tread, without noise, without light, without warning. He comes as silently and stealthily as possible, unobserved by the sleepers. He comes to rob. He comes to take away everything that he can. He is after gold and pearls and jewels of great price. Men are unaware of the event until he has come and gone and the items of value to the owner have disappeared with him. The Lord Jesus Himself says that HE WILL COME AS A THIEF. God’s Word is written to us the believers; not the heathen.

As a thief! Can the natural mind even fathom the depths of a truth so eternal and sublime? This statement plainly indicates the manner of the Lord's coming. It shows that He is present unseen, doing a work of which men are for a time entirely unaware. His working is therefore in a quiet manner, unobserved and entirely unknown until the discovery is made in consciousness of the handiwork He has wrought in secret. His arising steals its way upon us as the dawning of the day.

Put away your charts and timetables and calculations and dates; for they have all failed miserably and none will ever be right. Thank God that He delivers us from all this fantastic nonsense! And in its place He directs our attention to what HE is doing, yes, that which HE IS BECOMING and FULFILLING in His elect. We look, indeed, for HIS GLORIOUS APPEARING, and rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory wherein He has appeared unto us, and in the glory in which He shall yet appear in surpassing splendor, praise His wonderful name!

Before the Lord Jesus Christ departed from this visible world, He said, "I will come again." He, as the glorified Christ, repeated these words to John on the lonely island of Patmos. Here He sharpened His promise and delivered it in a dramatic way. "And, behold, I come QUICKLY; and My reward is with Me" (Rev. 22:12). This word "quickly" is from the Greek TACHU meaning shortly, without delay, soon. Why would Christ say He was coming QUICKLY, SHORTLY, SOON AND WITHOUT DELAY if two long milleniums of time were to stretch out between His promise and its fulfillment? If such was the case, He either lied, deceived, or was mistaken. Two thousand years are N-O-T SOON, SHORTLY OR WITHOUT DELAY by the stretch of anybody's imagination His last word to the Churches is: "I am coming quickly," and this is the testimony of the One who is Faithful and true. He makes His coming to be the "NEXT THING" for the Christian. He sets up neither time nor event between Himself and His body. He takes special pains to assure His people that there is no required delay, no parenthesis of time between Him and the saints. He uses a word which from the earliest days of classic Greek signifies "without delay." When therefore, He says, "I am coming (for He uses the present tense),"He says actually, "I am coming, I am already in the process of coming, and there SHALL BE NO DELAY." It would be impossible to use language which could more adequately, and without reserve, teach that the coming of Christ is a PRESENT AND CONTINUOUS EVENT. An aged minister once said that he did not believe the Lord was coming for 60,000 years. I concluded that he COULD NOT BE WATCHING FOR IT!

We dare not lose sight of the fact that our Lord has already had many comings, many appearing. We have limited the comings of Jesus strictly to two because of our unscriptural and extra-biblical terms "first coming" and "second coming," but the truth is that He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; He will continue to come!



Glenn said:
Benoni said:

Benoni,

Your posts are extremely confusing. So basically you're saying that "caught up" doesn't mean "caught up?" Do you not realize that "rapture" means the same as "harpazo" (caught up)?

You also seem to be spiritualizing Christs second coming. What would you like to do with Acts 1:11?

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."













Sounds like preterism has infiltrated your thinking, they all preached His return bodily not just spiritualy, Christ did as well Matthew 25:31. The One New Man and his hope is something everyone overlooks in the fuss about when, what, who, and were, neither have the who right.
Seperate the hopes, the prophetic kingdom from the mystery kept hid in God the heavenly calling, Christ coming in glory is not the same as appearing with Him in glory, the mystery temple the new creation has no prophetic link to the Acts period hope of Israel, or calling, so trying to attach the hope of the kingdom promised since and from the foundation to the body called before the foundation is futile, it doesn't belong together, but most think they are in the Acts period in doctrine so fuss on you partaking gentiles of the remnant of Israel.

Glen.