There is no Second Coming or Rapture

[rob]

There are five great mysteries in the Bible: (Ephesians 1:9; 3:4; 3:9; 5:32; 6:19; Colossians 2:2).

The mystery of the Universe is God!
The mystery of man is God!
The mystery of God is Christ!
The mystery of Christ is the Church.
The mystery of the Church which is the organism of Christ as the overflow and enlargement of Christ, the house of God, the golden lampstand, the bride and the new Jerusalem.

 

[Nomad]

I put no stake in the Roman Catholic language in scripture, NONE…

Again, there is no such thing as "Roman Catholic Language." Latin was around long before the RCC. Again, "rapture" = "rapiemur" = "harpazo" = "caught up." You're objection to the word "rapture" is completely ignorant and irrational. And once again, you have ignored the clear teaching of Acts 1:11.

 

[rob]

(Matthew 24:27) For just as the lightning comes from the East and shines to the West, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The second coming of Christ has two aspects: one is the secret aspect, related to His watchful believers, and the other is the open aspect, related to the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles. The lightning here signifies the open aspect, which will take place after the great tribulation (vv.29-30). whereas the thief's coming in verse 43 signifies the secret aspect, which will occur before the great tribulation.
(Matthew 24:30). At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. We have no way of knowing what this sign is. However, it must be supernatural and clearly visible (Perhaps like lightning in v.27).


0 appearing in heaven.
The tribes are the tribes of the nation of Israel, and the land is the Holy Land. At the Lord's appearing, all the tribes of Israel will repent and mourn. (Zech. 12:10-14; Rev. 1:7).
By this time the Lord will not longer be in the cloud but on the cloud, appearing to the people on the earth. This is the open aspect of His second coming.

 

[Benoni]

Dead language,
The Language on Baby lon

I put no stake in the Roman Catholic language in scripture, NONE…

Again, there is no such thing as "Roman Catholic Language." Latin was around long before the RCC. Again, "rapture" = "rapiemur" = "harpazo" = "caught up." You're objection to the word "rapture" is completely ignorant and irrational. And once again, you have ignored the clear teaching of Acts 1:11.

 

[Benoni]

Nowhere in God’s Word speaks of the "second coming" of Christ. Interesting, isn't it - how some of the major and most commonly accepted doctrines of professing Christianity cannot be found in the Bible? There is no mention whatever of such things as Christmas, Easter, the "immaculate conception" of Mary, mass, popes, church buildings, the Trinity, or - the "second coming"! The Lord's people should purge their conversation, purify their terminology, and remove from their consciousness the multitude of non-scriptural and extra-biblical expressions carried over from Mystery Babylon. We have both parroted and coined a great many unscriptural terms that have been so misleading and have led us astray in our understanding of the scriptures and the wonderful plan of God.

(Matthew 24:27) For just as the lightning comes from the East and shines to the West, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The second coming of Christ has two aspects: one is the secret aspect, related to His watchful believers, and the other is the open aspect, related to the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles. The lightning here signifies the open aspect, which will take place after the great tribulation (vv.29-30). whereas the thief's coming in verse 43 signifies the secret aspect, which will occur before the great tribulation.
(Matthew 24:30). At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. We have no way of knowing what this sign is. However, it must be supernatural and clearly visible (Perhaps like lightning in v.27).


0 appearing in heaven.
The tribes are the tribes of the nation of Israel, and the land is the Holy Land. At the Lord's appearing, all the tribes of Israel will repent and mourn. (Zech. 12:10-14; Rev. 1:7).
By this time the Lord will not longer be in the cloud but on the cloud, appearing to the people on the earth. This is the open aspect of His second coming.

 

[Benoni]

Comes with CloudS

Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories.

Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints."

But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).

Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one.

Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!

We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

 

[n2thelight]

Hello Benoni

I can tell you have good insight but you are in my opinion making things more complicated than they should.I agree there will not be a so called rapture,however there will be a 2nd coming which simply means,Christ 2nd advent.

There are only two Advents witnessed to in Scripture {Zech 9:9 (First Advent); Zech 9:10 (Second Advent)}. This is also why Jesus, when reading from the book of Isaiah in the Synagogue in {Lk 4:17-21} had to stop reading at the middle of verse {Isa 61:2} when He was reading the Scripture that spoke of Him, because the words that came after "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" would not be fulfilled until His Second Advent:<blockquote>Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (KJV)</blockquote> Below is the Scripture Christ was referring to, the words in blue bold are the words that He could not finish reading to them at that time and still have been able to say that: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" because it will not be fulfilled until the Second Advent:<blockquote>Isa 61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (KJV)</blockquote> There is no selective taking out, no partial Second Advent , no pre-second ''Advent'' Advent, not three Advents but only two, and the Bible declares the same.

The Second Advent with Armageddon at that moment & ALL changed to spiritual bodies (still not judged) - man NEVER again in the flesh body.

• Then the 1000 year Millennium teaching time {Rev 20:1-6}.
  
• Then satan loosed a little while to test those taught in Millennium {Rev 20:7-8}.
  
• Then God destroys those who follow satan after the Millennium, satan cast into Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as Hell) {Rev 20:9-10}.
  
• Then Judgment Day {Rev 20:11-13}.
  
• Then all that offend destroyed in Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as Hell) {Rev 20:13-15}.
  
• Then the Heaven Age - eternal {Rev 21:1-end of Bible} (till the end time which never ends).

No Rapture,that we can agree on...

 

[Benoni]

Sorry to disapoint you but I am not a traditionalist and believe very little that is taught in man's religious traditions.

Hello Benoni

I can tell you have good insight but you are in my opinion making things more complicated than they should.I agree there will not be a so called rapture,however there will be a 2nd coming which simply means,Christ 2nd advent.

There are only two Advents witnessed to in Scripture {Zech 9:9 (First Advent); Zech 9:10 (Second Advent)}. This is also why Jesus, when reading from the book of Isaiah in the Synagogue in {Lk 4:17-21} had to stop reading at the middle of verse {Isa 61:2} when He was reading the Scripture that spoke of Him, because the words that came after "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" would not be fulfilled until His Second Advent:<blockquote>Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (KJV)</blockquote> Below is the Scripture Christ was referring to, the words in blue bold are the words that He could not finish reading to them at that time and still have been able to say that: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" because it will not be fulfilled until the Second Advent:<blockquote>Isa 61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (KJV)</blockquote> There is no selective taking out, no partial Second Advent , no pre-second ''Advent'' Advent, not three Advents but only two, and the Bible declares the same.

The Second Advent with Armageddon at that moment & ALL changed to spiritual bodies (still not judged) - man NEVER again in the flesh body.

• Then the 1000 year Millennium teaching time {Rev 20:1-6}.
  
• Then satan loosed a little while to test those taught in Millennium {Rev 20:7-8}.
  
• Then God destroys those who follow satan after the Millennium, satan cast into Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as Hell) {Rev 20:9-10}.
  
• Then Judgment Day {Rev 20:11-13}.
  
• Then all that offend destroyed in Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as Hell) {Rev 20:13-15}.
  
• Then the Heaven Age - eternal {Rev 21:1-end of Bible} (till the end time which never ends).

No Rapture,that we can agree on...

 

[Benoni]

Trumpet mentioned 11 times. Matt 24:31, 1 Corin 14:8, 1 Corin 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16, Hebrew 12:19, Reve 1:10, Reve 4:1, Reve 8:2, 6, 13, Reve 9:14
Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His messengers with a Trumpet/salpiggoV <4536> sound, great, and they shall be upon-together-gathering/episunaxousin <1996> (5692) the out-called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a-moment, in twinkle of an eye, in the Last trumpet/salpiggi <4536>; for he-shall-be-trumpeting, and the dead-ones shall be being roused incorruptible, and we shall be being changed/allaghsomeqa <236> (5691).

The word "trumpet" appears approximately one hundred times in the Bible. In the Old Testament the word is found about eighty-five times while in the New Testament it occurs only about fifteen times. The first use of the term is recorded in Exodus, the last in the book of Revelation. To get the spiritual meaning of trumpets we need to establish something of their typological significance. The meaning of the trumpet is made crystal clear in a number of scriptures. Isaiah said, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up T-H-Y V-O-I-C-E LIKE A TRUMPET, and show My people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins" (Isa. 58:1). Here the voice bearing God's message to His people is likened unto the sounding of a trumpet.

One day as the beloved apostle John trod the burning sands of the desolation of Patmos, he was suddenly caught away in the spirit and immediately, "I heard behind me a great V-O-I-C-E, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:10-11). Here, Christ's voice, as John heard it, is compared to a trumpet. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first V-O-I-C-E which I heard was as it were a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will show you things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1). Notice this trumpet-voice told him to come up higher, so he could see the things God wanted to show him. God's trumpet-message is always to come up higher. It is sent because that is the great need of the saints and of all mankind, to come up into the higher realms of the spirit, for we cannot see the glorious spiritual truths nor behold the wondrous heavenly things from the lowlands of our carnal mind and nature. Normally we "hear" a voice, but John said of the trumpet-voice that penetrated his spiritual consciousness, "And I turned to SEE THE VOICE that spake with me. And being turned, I SAW seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks ONE like unto the Son of man..." (Rev. 1:12-13). The

One who spoke with a "voice" as of a "trumpet" was IN the trumpet voice, and it was IN THE MESSAGE OF THE VOICE that this glorious One was revealed. I do not hesitate to tell you that this was the revelation of Jesus Christ as He appeared to John IN THE TRUMP OF GOD!
God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET" (Ps. 47:5). When a rising time is due for God's people, it maybe said that God is "gone UP," as taken from the lesson that He moved in a pillar of cloud and fire to lead His ancient people, Israel. "With the sound of a trumpet" signifies that His voice is being heard. God's VOICE and His TRUMPET are ore and the same. It is the sounding forth of His Word. Many messengers (His many-membered body) add volume to the sound of that trumpet. Rev. 1:15 says, "...His voice as the sound of MANY WATERS." John also tells us in Rev. 17:15 that waters means multitudes of peoples. So God's trumpet voice is sounding through many people, "many waters." "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a multitude, and as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (Rev. 19:5-6). John heard coming from the throne (divine authority) a message which he said was a voice of a "multitude," of "many waters," and of "mighty thunderings," saying, "Alleluia, for the Lord

God omnipotent reigneth." It was one trumpet message with many voices adding volume to it. It was ONE MESSAGE, but being trumpeted by many voices, so that it became as the voice of a "great thunder." This shows the beautiful unity in Christ and His many-membered body.

How clear that the Holy Spirit here equates the VOICE of God's prophet, bearing the Lord's MESSAGE to the house of Israel, with the SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPET of the watchman. The trumpet bespeaks a clear word of God from the Spirit appointed and Spirit anointed messengers, His ministers. Trumpets are words, clear words, living words. The trumpet of God is His voice, His voice from heaven, His voice in the saints; even the voice of the Holy Spirit through the consecrated priests of the Most High. The voice of the Lord is the trumpet-sound and the trumpet-voice, the divine message of His truth and life. The trumpet is the revelation of the Lord speaking through His true ministries in an oracle of the Spirit. The sound of the trumpet is simply the PROCLAMATION OF A MESSAGE!

With a simple knowledge like this we should have no trouble at all in understanding that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos of God, is Himself the trumpet, the message, the revelation! In type, Jesus is the trumpet of God, delivering a clear sound, a living word, and introducing us to the reality of the perfection and incorruptible life of which He is the beginning. Praise God, it is the LORD HIMSELF who comes in the trumpet (message), and at the sound of His voice we are CAUGHT UP with Him to share the glory of His sphere of life. The Lord Himself descends out from the highest realms of our heavens (spirit) into the lower realm of our earth. We are the creatures God is creating to express His nature, power and glory unto creation. His purpose for coming out of the realm of spirit into your earth is to catch your whole being up into the realm of spirit, to swallow up all death into HIS LIFE. And He accomplishes this by coming to us IN A TRUMPET MESSAGE. He comes in a shout, in a voice of command, and in the trump of God because though we are hungry for God and desire more of Him, because of our flesh and the control of the carnal mind we are not easily alerted or moved.

God is wanting to say and do a NEW THING. It is time to go forward. It is the hour to arise to the battle and possess our land, our full inheritance in God. It is time to leave the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and GO ON TO PERFECTION. It is time to put on the mind of Christ and be transformed by the renewing of our mind. It is time to live and not die. So the Lord descends from heaven in a battle alarm, in the electrifying sound of a trumpet-message, to stimulate, to arouse, to alert and challenge you to get ready for the battle of the ages and the victory of victories that follows!
Today God is trumpeting a message into our hearing. He is projecting into our thinking a realm beyond the feasts of Passover and Pentecost, yea, beyond anything we have heretofore seen, heard, or experienced. He is projecting the fullness of salvation, the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, the King-Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, maturity in the nature and power of sonship and the dynamic realities of the Most Holy Place into us. No matter what our spiritual understanding has been, we are finally being made aware that we are now living in the most momentous hour imaginable. There is an awakening among the elect of the Lord that transcends human knowledge. He is putting into the hearts of His chosen people the desire to ready themselves for the sonship prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

 

[n2thelight]

Benoni
Sorry to disapoint you but I am not a traditionalist and believe very little that is taught in man's religious traditions.

Not disappointed at all...

God is wanting to say and do a NEW THING. It is time to go forward. It is the hour to arise to the battle and possess our land, our full inheritance in God. It is time to leave the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and GO ON TO PERFECTION.

We will not reach perfection until Christ arrives...that is when we shall leave the flesh for in it we cannot find perfection...however we are to strive for it...

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Benoni]

Know Him not as Flesh

His resurrected flesh that appeared before the astonished eyes of the wondering Thomas. I do not hesitate to say that the strongest temptation to every man is to guide himself by what he can see, feel and handle. This is why the disciples wanted Jesus to remain. This is the core of all ritualism and ceremonialism, of all the blinding creeds and lifeless traditions systems, of all the foolishness of candles and crucifixes and incense and ages and robes and temples and programs and ordinances and prayer books.

It is the essence of idolatry. Men want to see God, therefore they make images of Him, or an object of ceremony or ordinance that He can be present in. I do not laugh at ritualism; it is intensely human. It is not so much a sin of presumption; it is a sin of mistake. It is trying to undo the going away of Jesus Christ. It is trying to make believe that He is still here IN THE FORM.

If men cannot have the historical Jesus here in the flesh, they then create some fleshly thing to represent Him. And the fatal fallacy of it is that it defeats its own end. He who seeks God in tangible form misses the very thing he is seeking, for God IS A SPIRIT. The desire burns within man to see God and this desire is given him to make him spiritual, by giving him a spiritual relationship; and he cheats himself by exercising the flesh instead of the spirit! Hunger and thirst after God are given us by the gracious hand of our Creator to raise us out of the realm of the seen and the temporal, for the things which are SEEN are TEMPORAL, but the things which are not seen are eternal, says the Lord. But instead of letting the spiritual appetite elevate us into the realm of the Spirit where God dwells, we are prone to degrade the very instrument of spiritualization and make it minister to the flesh.

It was expedient in order that the disciples of Jesus should be SPIRITUALIZED that Jesus should become A SPIRIT. They could not have Him in the flesh and in the Spirit too; His bodily presence would hinder the spiritual indwelling. They must part with the Jesus they knew before they could receive the GLORIFIED JESUS as the Spirit. Christ Himself had to give up the life He had before He could be glorified either in the heavenlies or in us. Even so, in our union with Him in the Spirit, we too must give up the Christ we have known in the past, however we have known Him, if indeed we are to become partakers of all He is by the Spirit.
This is hard to grasp, we are so earth-bound, used to visible forms and appearances, and the very word "spirit" leaves one groping for something more tangible. Yet because of His inner moving and the unfolding revelation of Himself within, I have come to realize that to settle for a "form", ANY FORM, is to possess the alabaster box without the higher experience of knowing the fragrant ointment within. It is not the box we want, it is the ointment! Thus we refuse to cling to the "form" for our hearts are crying out for the "essence". God has often accommodated His people in their childishness and for a time provided a "form", but later He SHATTERED THE FORM that they might become aware of the essence. The hour has arrived when every man and woman of God who would follow on to KNOW THE LORD must experience a total breaking forth from every structured form and encrusted tradition, that we might KNOW HIM, the essence. Yes, it is a shattering process, most severe as the forms of rituals, ceremonies, religious systems, creeds, ordinances, ministries, and religious exercises of many kinds are literally swept away that we might now come to KNOW CHRIST ALONE as the inner Reality and Life.

The inspired writer of the book of Hebrews penned one of the most profound statements in all the Word of God when he wrote, "He taketh away the first that He may establish the second" (Heb. 10:9). The writer of this letter had a great task before him. He had to try to make some people see the meaning of a loss. In what tender and masterly fashion he did his work matters not to us for the moment. Suffice it to say one can scarcely conceive of it being done better. The letter was written to some Hebrews who could not reconcile themselves to the loss of the Temple, with its splendid ritual, its stately and impressive worship, its wealth of form and type, and its endless symbolism. While in some sense entering into the spirit of the New Day, they were still partially dominated by the habit of a thousand yesterdays.

We can only look with sympathy on those Hebrews in their difficult passage from the old to the new. It is not easy to abandon an established tradition. Habits of thought and conduct get a wonderfully strong hold upon nations and upon individuals. One can clearly see that the believing Jew would be very slow at times in realizing the meaning of the new conditions of spiritual life involved in his acceptance of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Messiah. So to these men in their passing confusion of thought - to these men who understood far better what they they had lost in the passing of the Jerusalem Temple and ceremony than what they had gained in the formation of the living temple of God built of countless living stones destined to be the habitation of God by the Spirit - came the writer of this letter to the Hebrews, to enter into their difficulties, to show them that upon the loss against which they were feeling resentment and uttering it, there was being built an IMMEASURABLE GAIN which they but dimly appreciated.

"He taketh away the first that He may establish the second." The writer says, "I acknowledge you have lost something - something very beautiful and comforting, something that has met your spiritual needs for centuries. But I want you to look beyond that loss, and find the splendid meaning of it, and see how that it is really the figure of a more glorious worship and a greater reality of life than ever Israel has known before." He taketh away. This is God's work. And God's taking is just the opposite of His giving!
Let us notice a few of God's firsts and seconds. God's seconds are always better than His firsts which He gives to mankind. Meditate deeply upon these: Cain - Able; Cain's sacrifice - Able's sacrifice; Ishmael - Isaac; Esau - Jacob; Letter - Spirit; First Covenant - New Covenant; Water baptism - Spirit baptism; First Adam - Second Adam; First earth - New earth; Old man - New creation; Jesus in flesh - Jesus in Spirit. The New Testament presents a more glorious message than the Old; the last Adam redeems what the first Adam lost; the message of God's grace unfolded in the New Testament far excels the Law of the Old. The second is greater than the first. It always is when God takes and gives. As someone has written, "In His great wisdom our God has arranged many things in pairs, or shall we say, by contrasting twos. Some of the 'firsts' may seem to be very good, and for a time quite acceptable, but in due time they are to be followed by the 'seconds' which are higher, better, and more desirable than the firsts. Perfection is found in God's seconds. Often the firsts are but a type and a shadow of the reality which is later to be found in the seconds. In the former we find the negative realm working out its purpose, and in the latter there is the glorious positive fulfilling its sphere. The more one ponders each fragment of truth revealed, the more they yearn to leave behind the realm of imperfection, fragmentary, and enter into the freedom of the Spirit of Life in fullness"

The first is of the earth earthy - the second is of God from heaven. And that is an epitome of the whole process of salvation, both for the individual and for the creation. He taketh away the outward that He may establish the inward, the seen that He may establish the unseen, the material that He may establish the spiritual. Israel had a religion that appealed to the senses. It was to some extent spectacular. Its tendency was temporal and local. It was a religion of times and places. The believing heart could not cling to it and at the same time enter into the timeless and universal gospel of Jesus Christ. And so the vision of the eyes had to go that the vision of the heart might grow clearer. The vision of Jerusalem of Judaea had to fade that the child of God, born now from above, might see the New Jerusalem, the City of God, coming down from heaven - a city ever being built of lives transformed by heaven's life into the radiance of God's glory on earth.

There are two passages in the New Testament which, taken together, form perhaps the most perfect illustration of this principle of which we have been thinking that can be found anywhere. They are these: (1) I go unto My Father (2) I am with you always. Jesus Christ: took Himself from His disciples' eyes that He might give Himself to their hearts. They lost the first, the physical presence, that they might find the second the spiritual presence. And as we seek ever to have the Spirit of Christ and do His service, so in countless ways shall this great principle of true gain by seeming loss have effect on our lives. Ever we shall be losing the less to find the greater; losing the outward to find the inward; losing semblance to find realities; losing shadows to find substance; all the former things shall have passed away and all things shall have become new, praise His wonderful name!

How many millions of children have gone through Sunday schools, grown up, attending church all their lives, listening to preachers and teachers explaining Moses and Jesus of Nazareth; and if you ask them on their death bed, what they know of Christ; they picture baby Jesus, Mary's son growing up, or Jesus teaching the multitudes, laying His hands upon the sick and suffering, and being nailed to the cross. They know that He came back from the dead for forty days, and then ascended into heaven, never to be seen or heard from again in that body of flesh. These know absolutely nothing about CHRIST THE SPIRIT, CHRIST AS HE I-S, THE GLORIOUS CHRIST W-I-T-H-I-N!

Ah, how do WE see Him? As He WAS, or as He IS? Is our understanding of Him as the lowly Son of man, great and wonderful as He was in that former state, or do we see Him as He IS in His exalted position at the right hand of the majesty on high? Do we see Him as the crucified One? It is wonderful to see Him in that way. Do we see Him as the One who endured the cross, despised the shame, conquered death and rose triumphant from the grave? Or do we see Him as the ascended One, the glorified One; the One who transcended the law of sin, rose above the confining, limiting physical laws of nature and ascended into the Spirit realm of God, the Head of all principalities and powers, far above them all; crowned with glory and honor; Lord and King of the universe; FILLING ALL THINGS WITH HIS QUICKENING LIFE.

Do we see Him as a physical Man, or do we see Him as Saul of Tarsus saw Him on the Damascus road, as the Light of God brighter than the noonday sun. Do we see Him with gentle blue eyes, seamless robe, and feet shod with the sandles of yesteryear; or do we see Him as John the Revelator saw Him on Patmos with eyes as a flame of fire, His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters!

How we praise God for the coming of Christ in the Feast of Pentecost! Truly He has come as the Spirit to write the Law of God upon our heart. This is the power and glory of PENTECOST! Wonderful as was the presence of Christ in the world, that physical presence cannot be compared to the magnificent glory of the SPIRIT CHRIST dwelling in the heart of man. No outward manifestation of power can take the place of His indwelling presence. It is from within and not from without that the work of transformation is to be carried forward from glory to glory until we shine in that same image of Christ.

Though Christ had walked and talked with His disciples, eating with them, praying with them, teaching them, and continually demonstrating the mighty works of God among them, even giving them power to heal the sick and cast out devils in His name, yet at the time of His departure there was but little sign of any work of transformation within them. All was by grace. Peter was still capable of cursing like a sailor and lying like the devil! Judas was still capable of stealing, fraud, and acting a traitor. In the face of pressure they were all capable of forsaking Him and running away in despair. They were still very natural, carnal men, as almost all the Old Testament saints had been before ever the Christ of God walked the paths of earth. God in Christ had indeed been among them, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, but He was definitely not IN THEM!

All the evil in the world today, even as Jesus said, comes from within the evil heart of man. Therefore, since all evil begins within and not without, transformation must begin within and not without. A man who makes his New Year's resolutions to change and reform his habits has only an outward change, and usually temporary at best, while his heart remains unchanged. But the man who ceases his sinfulness and carnality because his heart is changed from within is indeed a New Creation man. Herein, then, lies the first and greatest blessing of the coming of the Lord in the Feast of Pentecost. Jesus had been with them, but now He would be IN THEM, renewing from within. He would become the dispensation of God into man by the Spirit. How wonderful it must have been to walk the hills of Judaea and the shores of Galilee with Jesus by their side! How much MORE WONDERFUL IT IS that Christ by the Holy Spirit now dwells within us, bringing forth that same image of Christ and glory of the Father in our lives! Many saints entertain the notion that the return of Jesus in that singular body of flesh would mean the subjugation of all His enemies and the establishment of His Kingdom over all from pole to pole. Not so! Shall Jesus accomplish by His presence in the flesh what He has not been able to do by the awesome power of His omnipotent Spirit? Behold! the Kingdom of God is within!

A child may be given an acorn by his father - a tiny seed in which is locked the mighty oak that will one day tower upon the spot where it fell into the ground, under whose shadow man and beast will rest, and in whose enormous branches the birds of the air will build their nests. His father digs a hole in the earth and the child places the seed in it. In the darkness, hidden, buried, it is nourished and fed. Tiny roots push out seeking nourishment. Finally, spring comes and at the right moment there appears the first manifestation of the mighty oak. A tiny shoot appears. The father takes his child to see. "Isn't it wonderful!" he tells the child. "Look at that tiny shoot." The child begins to cry. "I want my acorn! Where is my acorn?"
In like manner, God our Father ordained that a New Creation should be brought forth in the image of Himself, to be born, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed. He followed the same wonderful pattern that infinite wisdom had devised to produce all things from a seed. First He must bring into the world the holy and incorruptible One who was to be called THE SON OF GOD, for He Himself was to become THE SEED of an entirely new creation of incorruptible SONS OF GOD. Then, true to the pattern of sowing and reaping, that seed must fall into the ground and die; "For," said Jesus, "the hour is come that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit" (Jn. 12:23-24). It is the outer shell, the form of the seed, that dies - not the incorruptible life within. The incorruptible life is the CHRIST SEED, springing forth, first the blade, then the ear, and afterward to become the full corn in the ear, to become the life of the many sons of God, the new creation - a creation of transformed men and women, born again of the incorruptible seed of God's Christ. But, wonder of wonders! the babes in Christ, comprehending not that our Lord Jesus Christ was the GERM SEED of the new creation, while they behold the harvest of many sons in preparation, at once begin to cry and demand, "I want my acorn! Where is my acorn?"

They would in their childish folly cling to the physical, historical Christ of the flesh, demanding that He be brought down from heaven again in just that singular body of flesh and bones, were they able. Is it not therefore abundantly true that, if the incorruptible life sealed up within God's Christ was to be released into the new creation harvest, then God's Christ must die. How else but by death could incorruptible life be released that they who dwelt in death might through faith partake of the power of His lifegiving Spirit? O what a death! O what a resurrection! O what an ascension! O what a glorification! O what an outpouring of HIMSELF! Who can fathom the depths of truth set forth in these words of our Lord: "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you. I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME UNTO YOU."

Benoni
Sorry to disapoint you but I am not a traditionalist and believe very little that is taught in man's religious traditions.

Not disappointed at all...

God is wanting to say and do a NEW THING. It is time to go forward. It is the hour to arise to the battle and possess our land, our full inheritance in God. It is time to leave the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and GO ON TO PERFECTION.

We will not reach perfection until Christ arrives...that is when we shall leave the flesh for in it we cannot find perfection...however we are to strive for it...

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Glenn]

I am not a “preterism”, I am a Christian Universalist and it is obviously you are trying to decipher what I believe and you have no clue. Yes Jesus will turn bodily but even then it will be a spiritual body. I have no idea what you are trying to say with all this preconceived religious garbadygoop. There are many returns of the Lord what do you say we look at each one of these comings individually without all this religious hoopla.


If you want an answer to a Physical nature in His coming; many will be glad to give it to you here; I just do not see it that simple.

He never left; His spirit is in everyman on this earth; and his kingdom Christ has set in motion the power of the seed of His life, and it will not fail to grow until it has changed the entire universe into part of His kingdom.

I posted this earlier but here it is a gain. So much of God’s Word is symbolic in nature; it is hidden from man and his religion. There are so many ways Jesus is coming in Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

He Coming as a Thief
And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, and as a thief.
There is a coming of the Lord as a thief. That is not a coming or an appearing that is before the public. It is not an unveiling before the multitudes. A thief does not go down to the public square with a trumpet and say, "I'd like to make an announcement. At three o'clock in the morning I'm going to visit the wealthiest man in this town and I'm going to steal everything I can get my hands on." He doesn't do that. He comes at the darkest part of the night. He comes with softest tread, without noise, without light, without warning. He comes as silently and stealthily as possible, unobserved by the sleepers. He comes to rob. He comes to take away everything that he can. He is after gold and pearls and jewels of great price. Men are unaware of the event until he has come and gone and the items of value to the owner have disappeared with him. The Lord Jesus Himself says that HE WILL COME AS A THIEF. God’s Word is written to us the believers; not the heathen.

As a thief! Can the natural mind even fathom the depths of a truth so eternal and sublime? This statement plainly indicates the manner of the Lord's coming. It shows that He is present unseen, doing a work of which men are for a time entirely unaware. His working is therefore in a quiet manner, unobserved and entirely unknown until the discovery is made in consciousness of the handiwork He has wrought in secret. His arising steals its way upon us as the dawning of the day.

Put away your charts and timetables and calculations and dates; for they have all failed miserably and none will ever be right. Thank God that He delivers us from all this fantastic nonsense! And in its place He directs our attention to what HE is doing, yes, that which HE IS BECOMING and FULFILLING in His elect. We look, indeed, for HIS GLORIOUS APPEARING, and rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory wherein He has appeared unto us, and in the glory in which He shall yet appear in surpassing splendor, praise His wonderful name!

Before the Lord Jesus Christ departed from this visible world, He said, "I will come again." He, as the glorified Christ, repeated these words to John on the lonely island of Patmos. Here He sharpened His promise and delivered it in a dramatic way. "And, behold, I come QUICKLY; and My reward is with Me" (Rev. 22:12). This word "quickly" is from the Greek TACHU meaning shortly, without delay, soon. Why would Christ say He was coming QUICKLY, SHORTLY, SOON AND WITHOUT DELAY if two long milleniums of time were to stretch out between His promise and its fulfillment? If such was the case, He either lied, deceived, or was mistaken. Two thousand years are N-O-T SOON, SHORTLY OR WITHOUT DELAY by the stretch of anybody's imagination His last word to the Churches is: "I am coming quickly," and this is the testimony of the One who is Faithful and true. He makes His coming to be the "NEXT THING" for the Christian. He sets up neither time nor event between Himself and His body. He takes special pains to assure His people that there is no required delay, no parenthesis of time between Him and the saints. He uses a word which from the earliest days of classic Greek signifies "without delay." When therefore, He says, "I am coming (for He uses the present tense),"He says actually, "I am coming, I am already in the process of coming, and there SHALL BE NO DELAY." It would be impossible to use language which could more adequately, and without reserve, teach that the coming of Christ is a PRESENT AND CONTINUOUS EVENT. An aged minister once said that he did not believe the Lord was coming for 60,000 years. I concluded that he COULD NOT BE WATCHING FOR IT!

We dare not lose sight of the fact that our Lord has already had many comings, many appearing. We have limited the comings of Jesus strictly to two because of our unscriptural and extra-biblical terms "first coming" and "second coming," but the truth is that He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; He will continue to come!

Benoni,

Your posts are extremely confusing. So basically you're saying that "caught up" doesn't mean "caught up?" Do you not realize that "rapture" means the same as "harpazo" (caught up)?

You also seem to be spiritualizing Christs second coming. What would you like to do with Acts 1:11?

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Sounds like preterism has infiltrated your thinking, they all preached His return bodily not just spiritualy, Christ did as well Matthew 25:31. The One New Man and his hope is something everyone overlooks in the fuss about when, what, who, and were, neither have the who right.
Seperate the hopes, the prophetic kingdom from the mystery kept hid in God the heavenly calling, Christ coming in glory is not the same as appearing with Him in glory, the mystery temple the new creation has no prophetic link to the Acts period hope of Israel, or calling, so trying to attach the hope of the kingdom promised since and from the foundation to the body called before the foundation is futile, it doesn't belong together, but most think they are in the Acts period in doctrine so fuss on you partaking gentiles of the remnant of Israel.

Glen.

I am not a “preterism”, I am a Christian Universalist and it is obviously you are trying to decipher what I believe and you have no clue. Yes Jesus will turn bodily but even then it will be a spiritual body. I have no idea what you are trying to say with all this preconceived religious garbadygoop. There are many returns of the Lord what do you say we look at each one of these comings individually without all this religious hoopla.


If you want an answer to a Physical nature in His coming; many will be glad to give it to you here; I just do not see it that simple.

He never left; His spirit is in everyman on this earth; and his kingdom Christ has set in motion the power of the seed of His life, and it will not fail to grow until it has changed the entire universe into part of His kingdom.

I posted this earlier but here it is a gain. So much of God’s Word is symbolic in nature; it is hidden from man and his religion. There are so many ways Jesus is coming in Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

He Coming as a Thief
And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, and as a thief.
There is a coming of the Lord as a thief. That is not a coming or an appearing that is before the public. It is not an unveiling before the multitudes. A thief does not go down to the public square with a trumpet and say, "I'd like to make an announcement. At three o'clock in the morning I'm going to visit the wealthiest man in this town and I'm going to steal everything I can get my hands on." He doesn't do that. He comes at the darkest part of the night. He comes with softest tread, without noise, without light, without warning. He comes as silently and stealthily as possible, unobserved by the sleepers. He comes to rob. He comes to take away everything that he can. He is after gold and pearls and jewels of great price. Men are unaware of the event until he has come and gone and the items of value to the owner have disappeared with him. The Lord Jesus Himself says that HE WILL COME AS A THIEF. God’s Word is written to us the believers; not the heathen.

As a thief! Can the natural mind even fathom the depths of a truth so eternal and sublime? This statement plainly indicates the manner of the Lord's coming. It shows that He is present unseen, doing a work of which men are for a time entirely unaware. His working is therefore in a quiet manner, unobserved and entirely unknown until the discovery is made in consciousness of the handiwork He has wrought in secret. His arising steals its way upon us as the dawning of the day.

Put away your charts and timetables and calculations and dates; for they have all failed miserably and none will ever be right. Thank God that He delivers us from all this fantastic nonsense! And in its place He directs our attention to what HE is doing, yes, that which HE IS BECOMING and FULFILLING in His elect. We look, indeed, for HIS GLORIOUS APPEARING, and rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory wherein He has appeared unto us, and in the glory in which He shall yet appear in surpassing splendor, praise His wonderful name!

Before the Lord Jesus Christ departed from this visible world, He said, "I will come again." He, as the glorified Christ, repeated these words to John on the lonely island of Patmos. Here He sharpened His promise and delivered it in a dramatic way. "And, behold, I come QUICKLY; and My reward is with Me" (Rev. 22:12). This word "quickly" is from the Greek TACHU meaning shortly, without delay, soon. Why would Christ say He was coming QUICKLY, SHORTLY, SOON AND WITHOUT DELAY if two long milleniums of time were to stretch out between His promise and its fulfillment? If such was the case, He either lied, deceived, or was mistaken. Two thousand years are N-O-T SOON, SHORTLY OR WITHOUT DELAY by the stretch of anybody's imagination His last word to the Churches is: "I am coming quickly," and this is the testimony of the One who is Faithful and true. He makes His coming to be the "NEXT THING" for the Christian. He sets up neither time nor event between Himself and His body. He takes special pains to assure His people that there is no required delay, no parenthesis of time between Him and the saints. He uses a word which from the earliest days of classic Greek signifies "without delay." When therefore, He says, "I am coming (for He uses the present tense),"He says actually, "I am coming, I am already in the process of coming, and there SHALL BE NO DELAY." It would be impossible to use language which could more adequately, and without reserve, teach that the coming of Christ is a PRESENT AND CONTINUOUS EVENT. An aged minister once said that he did not believe the Lord was coming for 60,000 years. I concluded that he COULD NOT BE WATCHING FOR IT!

We dare not lose sight of the fact that our Lord has already had many comings, many appearing. We have limited the comings of Jesus strictly to two because of our unscriptural and extra-biblical terms "first coming" and "second coming," but the truth is that He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; He will continue to come!

Benoni,

Your posts are extremely confusing. So basically you're saying that "caught up" doesn't mean "caught up?" Do you not realize that "rapture" means the same as "harpazo" (caught up)?

You also seem to be spiritualizing Christs second coming. What would you like to do with Acts 1:11?

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Sounds like preterism has infiltrated your thinking, they all preached His return bodily not just spiritualy, Christ did as well Matthew 25:31. The One New Man and his hope is something everyone overlooks in the fuss about when, what, who, and were, neither have the who right.
Seperate the hopes, the prophetic kingdom from the mystery kept hid in God the heavenly calling, Christ coming in glory is not the same as appearing with Him in glory, the mystery temple the new creation has no prophetic link to the Acts period hope of Israel, or calling, so trying to attach the hope of the kingdom promised since and from the foundation to the body called before the foundation is futile, it doesn't belong together, but most think they are in the Acts period in doctrine so fuss on you partaking gentiles of the remnant of Israel.

Glen.

Not a preterist? If it quacks like a duck it must be a duck.
Yea its obvious you don't see the post Acts doctrinal change, nor the hope that was kept secret until the hope of Israel was postponed for this hidden purpose!

Glen.

 

[Benoni]

Glenn,

No I am not a not a "preterist" what ever religious term this may mean, it sure is not a Biblical term just like your so called unscriptural second coming or rapture.. There is no hope in the rapture or second coming all there is is an excaptism doctine where God's people try to excape the trials and tribulation God has blessed his overcomer's with.

(my Hope is in Jesus not flying away in some rain cloud)

 

[Nomad]

No I am not a not a "preterist" what ever religious term this may mean, it sure is not a Biblical term just like your so called unscriptural second coming or rapture..

You have been corrected on these terms already, but for the sake of the argument here, let's follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion. If a Biblical concept is rendered null and void because the "label" assigned to it is not found in Scripture, then you must consistent and reject the doctrine of the Trinity. After all, the word "trinity" is not found in Scriipture. Are you a modalist or a unitarian?

 

[Benoni]

Nomad,

You are right I do not like religious labels all they do is try to control God's deep and awesome Word so carnal religious man thinks he understand something he has no clue about.

Trinity and the second Coming are more then a just a label, it is a false doctrine. The real issue is the escapist doctrine where Jesus (in the flesh) is going to return in a rain cloud and all believers are going to fly away in glory land playing harps. There are many returns of the Lord as I have already point not just two.

 

[Nomad]

Nomad,

You are right I do not like religious labels all they do is try to control God's deep and awesome Word so carnal religious man thinks he understand something he has no clue about.

Trinity and the second Coming are more then a just a label, it is a false doctrine. The real issue is the escapist doctrine where Jesus (in the flesh) is going to return in a rain cloud and all believers are going to fly away in glory land playing harps. There are many returns of the Lord as I have already point not just two.

I see. So we can add yet another heresy to your resume? Since you reject the doctrine of the Trinity, are you a unitarian or a modalist?

 

[jerryjohnson]

I would say he is nuts

 

[Benoni]

So this is how you show the Christ with in you?

I would say he is nuts

 

[Benoni]

How can something be a heresy if it is not even mention in God's Word? Please explain?

I am a Monotheist, I am not a Unitarian or a Trinitarian. God is one not two or three persons unless you can give me chapter and verse that declares God is made up of three person?

I have no idea what a “modalist” is, neither does Webster.

Nomad,

You are right I do not like religious labels all they do is try to control God's deep and awesome Word so carnal religious man thinks he understand something he has no clue about.

Trinity and the second Coming are more then a just a label, it is a false doctrine. The real issue is the escapist doctrine where Jesus (in the flesh) is going to return in a rain cloud and all believers are going to fly away in glory land playing harps. There are many returns of the Lord as I have already point not just two.

I see. So we can add yet another heresy to your resume? Since you reject the doctrine of the Trinity, are you a unitarian or a modalist?

 

[Benoni]

Heresy is an interesting Word in scripture and thought-out religious history religious men try to label people who do not agree with there religious dogma as heretic. But seeing there are ten thousands different belief systems out there all claiming they have the absolute truth, lets for once look at how God’s word uses this word?

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.