There is only one Mediator, but...

[FHII]

Faith comes by hearing a preacher?
Your logic could also allow the test for a preacher sent by God that they must have beautiful feet and preach peace.

No, not really. Second thing, first: they don't preach peace; they preach the gospel of peace. Now, the first thing: when Paul asks the rhetorical question, "how can you hear without a preacher?" It was his own words. When he said, "how beautiful are the feet of them..." he was quoting Isaiah. Therefore, you have to understand it from Isaiah's reference, and if you don't believe he was speaking symbolically, well then....

But in any case, you really can't use one verse to cancel out another, and expect anyone else to take it seriously. Is that what you are doing? Are you ignoring Paul saying faith comes by hearing and you need a preacher to hear (all because you believe God was talking g literal when he said they have beautiful feet)?

I am more inclined to believe your literal belief than I am to discard Paul's word. For what it's worth, the feet in Isaiah 52 (and thus Romans 10) are that of a watchman while he is on a mountain... so do you really wantto claim that's literal? But the feet represent either the foundation of the watchman, and/or his path.

Paul goes on to make the argument they have heard and not believed, and then Paul explains not because of a preacher they have faith, but because of God they have faith. Faith is the work of God and not preaching

No he doesn't. Yes, they heard and didn't believe. But they didn't have faith. Nowhere in this chapter does Paul say they had faith and no where in Isaiah did they have faith. God sent Isaiah himself, and they did not hear him, thus they did not hear God.

Yes, we are to trust in God, not preachers. But God sends preachers and anoints them. Unfortunately, you must trust God enough to accept his messengers.

Do you?

 

[FHII]

As long as "Man of God" is not taken to be limited to a representative of a single denomination, corrupted by men and man's traditions over the centuries.

Having said that, it seems more preferred than a requirement. Like Paul wrote that it is better that we don't marry, some may prefer to anyway. Some may be hermits but we are made to live in community and in that respect, yes. It is easier to find The Way with someone further down the path.

A man of God simply needs to be sent by Him. Denominations not needed. God can work through a denomination, but I doubt he does.

When Paul said it was better not to marry, he was speaking with permission. In short, he was giving a personal opinion and not a commandment from God. As far as I can see, he is the only one to do that, and he did it a few times. But he always noted when he was speaking by permission.

Nowhere when Paul is notingone needs a man of God does he note he is speaking by permission.

 

[theefaith]

What if we ourselves are priests?
Do any of us have direct access to God?
What is Jesus for us?

yes the royal priesthood but Christ is high priest according to melchisedec so there must be low priests of the same order!

 

[theefaith]

This is a direct contradiction of what is revealed in the Bible. But I do not expect you to understand.

can one be saved without a priest?

 

[Scott Downey]

No, not really. Second thing, first: they don't preach peace; they preach the gospel of peace. Now, the first thing: when Paul asks the rhetorical question, "how can you hear without a preacher?" It was his own words. When he said, "how beautiful are the feet of them..." he was quoting Isaiah. Therefore, you have to understand it from Isaiah's reference, and if you don't believe he was speaking symbolically, well then....

But in any case, you really can't use one verse to cancel out another, and expect anyone else to take it seriously. Is that what you are doing? Are you ignoring Paul saying faith comes by hearing and you need a preacher to hear (all because you believe God was talking g literal when he said they have beautiful feet)?

I am more inclined to believe your literal belief than I am to discard Paul's word. For what it's worth, the feet in Isaiah 52 (and thus Romans 10) are that of a watchman while he is on a mountain... so do you really wantto claim that's literal? But the feet represent either the foundation of the watchman, and/or his path.



No he doesn't. Yes, they heard and didn't believe. But they didn't have faith. Nowhere in this chapter does Paul say they had faith and no where in Isaiah did they have faith. God sent Isaiah himself, and they did not hear him, thus they did not hear God.

Yes, we are to trust in God, not preachers. But God sends preachers and anoints them. Unfortunately, you must trust God enough to accept his messengers.

Do you?

You really missing what scripture says, I dont know why you don't acknowledge God's work in why you have faith and have placed it all upon the work of preaching of men.

The reason they hear Paul, Isaiah, or the gospel, is due to God giving them the ability to hear.
Example from Moses where it is said, Deuteronomy 29
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders.

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

And John 6 is all about why people have faith, why they believe in Christ, and there is no mention of preaching that Jesus says is the reason why men believe in Him.

Do people realize that faithfulness, faith is the fruit of the spirit, and the gift of God and is not of yourselves. If they think so they have reason to boast to all, including God.
No, man, a natural man, simply has no faith in Christ, they have enmity against Christ in their hearts, as they are OF the world.

 

[amadeus]

yes the royal priesthood but Christ is high priest according to melchisedec so there must be low priests of the same order!

A priest was one who made the necessary sacrifices in the OT under the law God gave to Moses. Such priests came only through the offspring of Levi through Aaron, but then God sent His Son to pay the price to reopen that closed Door to Life. No priestly intercessor, but Jesus is needed anymore...

He opened the Door, which He is [John 10:7-9], so that we could sacrifice ourselves and enter into Life.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Scott Downey]

can one be saved without a priest?

Why is a priest needed to be saved? How do you define 'saved'?

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus is our priest to God. We need Him to be saved, no one else.

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

 

[FHII]

You really missing what scripture says, I dont know why you don't acknowledge God's work in why you have faith and have placed it all upon the work of preaching of men.

Oh really? Perhaps you have missed some of my replies to others. I fully accept God's work, but seemingly unlike you, I have no problem acknowledging it comes through preaching. It's all about God's work, but God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. That is from 1 Cor 1. Do you not believe it?

No, I have not placed it all upon the work of of preaching of men. I give all due credit to God, and I accept his method. His method is through preaching. I trust God enough to go with this foolish plan.

Do you?

The reason they hear Paul, Isaiah, or the gospel, is due to God giving them the ability to hear.

Yes, absolutely! But to hear whom? You discussed Moses... well one time God did speak to whole nation, but he told them to listen to Aaron through Moses. God even likened Moses to a God.

Bottom line is that God gives us the ability to hear (not the preacher), but he speaks through a preacher.

 

[Scott Downey]

Oh really? Perhaps you have missed some of my replies to others. I fully accept God's work, but seemingly unlike you, I have no problem acknowledging it comes through preaching. It's all about God's work, but God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. That is from 1 Cor 1. Do you not believe it?

No, I have not placed it all upon the work of of preaching of men. I give all due credit to God, and I accept his method. His method is through preaching. I trust God enough to go with this foolish plan.

Do you?


Yes, absolutely! But to hear whom? You discussed Moses... well one time God did speak to whole nation, but he told them to listen to Aaron through Moses. God even likened Moses to a God.

Bottom line is that God gives us the ability to hear (not the preacher), but he speaks through a preacher.

I dont have an issue with people hearing the gospel through a preacher and believing the message. But that work belongs to God and not the preacher. The preacher is sharing a message, but the Holy Spirit enlightens the heart and mind by making us born again.
And no one needs to hear a preacher to be saved. If so then what about those who cannot naturally hear such as the deaf, if so then they cannot be saved according to what your preaching, they cannot hear any preaching.

And being born again is the first thing that happens, otherwise the man or woman has enmity against God and wont be believing the gospel, as they are in the flesh only and not of God. To be of God, means you are born of the Spirit. Only those who are born of the Spirit have the enmity removed and are now in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

People who are in the flesh cannot believe in Christ, cannot know who He is, He has to be spiritually discerned by someone that He is the Christ of God. Just like the unbelieving Jews kept saying to Christ, Who are you?
John 8:25
Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

Jesus preached the kingdom to them, but they did not know who he was, and therefore could not believe in Him.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Flesh is flesh, Jesus tells us.
"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Of course, they won't believe no matter what Jesus tells them, because they are only in the flesh, and of the world. They are not of God, not of God means they are not born again. Only those who of God, of the Spirit are born again, only they will believe the gospel as only they are those who hear what Christ and the Spirit says.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

 

[Wrangler]

A man of God simply needs to be sent by Him.

Great clarification!

When Paul said it was better not to marry, he was speaking with permission. In short, he was giving a personal opinion and not a commandment from God ... speaking by permission ... speaking by permission.

I vaguely recall this expression, 'speaking with/by permission.' Not sure where it originates but I guess it is an aside from the point. However, it seems like the default speech and the term connotes submissiveness. In an ocean of one speaking their own mind, is the exception, speaking for or on behalf of someone else.

This someone else does not even need to be the almighty. After telling someone about your trip, how the plane was late and the food was lousy and the service was the worst, one might add, "And your mother says hello. Of course, you can move into the basement if need be." What name is given to speech that is not with/by permission?

 

[theefaith]

Why is a priest needed to be saved? How do you define 'saved'?

Salvation:

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

 

[theefaith]

We cannot read scriptures and decide doctrine for ourselves according to scripture we must be “taught”!

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Acts 18:25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord;

1 thes 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:




Christ Taught:
Matt 5:2
Matt 7:29
Matt 13:54
Mark 1:21
Mark 1:22
Mark 2:13
Mark 4:2
Mark 9:31
Mark 10:1
Mark 11:17
Mark 12:35
Luke 4:15
Luke 4:31
Luke 5:3
Luke 6:6
Luke 13:26
Luke 19:47
Luke 20:1
John 6:59
John 7:14
John 7:28
John 8:2
John 8:20
John 18:20


Christ teaches with authority:
Matt 7:29
Mark 1:22


Apostles commanded to teach:
Matt 28:19

Apostles teach:
Mark 6:30
Acts 2:42
Acts 4:2
Acts 5:21
Acts 11:26
Acts 14:21
Acts 18:25
Acts 20:20
Col 2:7
2 thes 2:15
Titus 1:9

Hear the church Matt 18:17
The pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15

To hear men appointed by Christ

Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19
Acts 1:8
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 thes 4:6

 

[Scott Downey]

We cannot read scriptures and decide doctrine for ourselves according to scripture we must be “taught”!

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Acts 18:25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord;

1 thes 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:




Christ Taught:
Matt 5:2
Matt 7:29
Matt 13:54
Mark 1:21
Mark 1:22
Mark 2:13
Mark 4:2
Mark 9:31
Mark 10:1
Mark 11:17
Mark 12:35
Luke 4:15
Luke 4:31
Luke 5:3
Luke 6:6
Luke 13:26
Luke 19:47
Luke 20:1
John 6:59
John 7:14
John 7:28
John 8:2
John 8:20
John 18:20


Christ teaches with authority:
Matt 7:29
Mark 1:22


Apostles commanded to teach:
Matt 28:19

Apostles teach:
Mark 6:30
Acts 2:42
Acts 4:2
Acts 5:21
Acts 11:26
Acts 14:21
Acts 18:25
Acts 20:20
Col 2:7
2 thes 2:15
Titus 1:9

Hear the church Matt 18:17
The pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15

To hear men appointed by Christ

Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19
Acts 1:8
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 thes 4:6

In truth the New Covenant does not require us to be taught to enter into it.
That is an Old Covenant idea.\

Here is the proof, this is how God runs the NC.
On how we know the Lord Jesus.
This is taught to us directly by God with no priest or any other man.
Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 6 is confirmation of Hebrews 8
For those who believe in Christ are all those who God has taught, refer back to Hebrews 8 and the NC.

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Jesus referring back to the prophets, is also using that same explanation of how the NC works that the writer of Hebrews 8 is doing.

 

[FHII]

I dont have an issue with people hearing the gospel through a preacher and believing the message. But that work belongs to God and not the preacher. The preacher is sharing a message, but the Holy Spirit enlightens the heart and mind by making us born again.

When have you heard me say otherwise? The crux of my statement is that God teaches us, through the man of God.

And no one needs to hear a preacher to be saved

1 Cor 1:21, Romans 10:12 and 17 disagree with you.

If so then what about those who cannot naturally hear such as the deaf, if so then they cannot be saved according to what your preaching, they cannot hear any preaching.

Oh really?

Matthew 11:5 KJV
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Mark 7:32 KJV
And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him.

Mark 7:37 KJV
And were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.

Mark 9:25 KJV
When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

Luke 7:22 KJV
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

I could go the other way and show verses where Jesus said people who weren't deaf couldn't hear.

God provides a way. There wasa woman in my Church who didn't speak English...she might as well been deaf. Butshe came anyway and heard. We had translators for her.

This is a pretty weak argument. Are you deaf? If not, why worry about someone else's predicament? 1 Cor 1and Romans 10 may be a problem for some, and God will make provisions. But if you can hear, it ain't a problem for you!

And being born again is the first thing that happens, otherwise the man or woman has

.....

None of that is relevant.

 

[FHII]

I vaguely recall this expression, 'speaking with/by permission.' Not sure where it originates but I guess it is an aside from the point. However, it seems like the default speech and the term connotes submissiveness. In an ocean of one speaking their own mind, is the exception, speaking for or on behalf of someone else.

Have you read it?

Check out 1 Cor 7. It's pretty clear that Paul is giving personal advice and not speaking a commandment from the Lord, unlike Romans 10.