There Should Be Only One Denomination: The Raw Word of God

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The Gospel of Christ

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Luke 21:20-28 properly displays what happened to Jerusalem back then and then points forward to the coming return of Christ, unencumbered by presuppositions of how the other gospels told the story, like Matthew 24, which so many people have mangled. Of course I dont read Matthew 24 like others do, with some claiming irrationally it is all done, fulfilled, the entire chapter. All of them together, Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 17, Luke 21 scriptures are actually consistent in what they say, just with more info and details.


Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple​

5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was [c]adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age​

7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ [d]Therefore do not [e]go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will [f]answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or [g]resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem​

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching​

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. 38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.



You just did exactly what the thread is accusing you of doing.

Jesus gives one continuous discourse:

Jerusalem.
Judea.
Armies.
YOU.
These things.
THIS generation.
ALL things.


And you walked into the middle of it, drew an invisible line after verse 24, transported everything after it thousands of years into the future, and then announced:

“See? Jesus was talking about the future.”

No. You put the future there.

Now show where Jesus put the 2,000-year gap.

Book, Chapter, Verse
 

shepherdsword

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I do think Matt 24 is history, difficulty is how to explain v29-31

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The prophetic "law of double reference" is a hermeneutical principle stating that a single biblical prophecy can simultaneously describe two separate events: an immediate, short-term historical event and a distant, future eschatological or messianic event
 

ProDeo

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The prophetic "law of double reference" is a hermeneutical principle stating that a single biblical prophecy can simultaneously describe two separate events: an immediate, short-term historical event and a distant, future eschatological or messianic event

I don't believe that, but perhaps you have examples from Scripture that support that.

I think that most of us (like me) are raised in the belief that the great tribulation is forthcoming and Jesus return is near.

Matt 24 does not teach that, IMO everything Jesus said did happen, including a rapture in the sky (so not on Earth) saving His flock (as promised) in the sky from the upcoming great tribulation. I can elaborate if you wish so.
 

Scott Downey

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You just did exactly what the thread is accusing you of doing.

Jesus gives one continuous discourse:

Jerusalem.
Judea.
Armies.
YOU.
These things.
THIS generation.
ALL things.

And you walked into the middle of it, drew an invisible line after verse 24, transported everything after it thousands of years into the future, and then announced:

“See? Jesus was talking about the future.”

No. You put the future there.

Now show where Jesus put the 2,000-year gap.

Book, Chapter, Verse
Well then you must believe Christ came back already, 2000 years ago
 

Scott Downey

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@The Gospel of Christ you have missed v24. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
There is your gap.

Luke 21
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
 

The Gospel of Christ

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@The Gospel of Christ you have missed v24. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
There is your gap.

Luke 21
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”


No, Scott. You found the word “until.”

You did not find a 2,000-year gap.

Luke 21:24 says:

“Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Now show me where Jesus says:

“And after that, skip forward thousands of years before continuing with verse 25.”

He doesn't.

In fact, Jesus keeps talking and then gives us the controlling time statement:

“THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL THINGS take place.” — Luke 21:32

Notice that:

THIS generation.

ALL things.


Not:

“Some things in this generation, then the rest thousands of years later.”

That sentence isn't there.

You're doing exactly what I said you were doing; taking something the text actually says - “until” - and then attaching your theological system to it until it becomes an enormous chronological gap Jesus never mentioned.

So again:

Where does JESUS put the 2,000-year gap?

Book. Chapter. Verse.

Because verse 24 doesn't say it.
 

Scott Downey

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No, Scott. You found the word “until.”

You did not find a 2,000-year gap.

Luke 21:24 says:

“Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Now show me where Jesus says:

“And after that, skip forward thousands of years before continuing with verse 25.”

He doesn't.

In fact, Jesus keeps talking and then gives us the controlling time statement:

“THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL THINGS take place.” — Luke 21:32

Notice that:

THIS generation.

ALL things.


Not:

“Some things in this generation, then the rest thousands of years later.”

That sentence isn't there.

You're doing exactly what I said you were doing; taking something the text actually says - “until” - and then attaching your theological system to it until it becomes an enormous chronological gap Jesus never mentioned.

So again:

Where does JESUS put the 2,000-year gap?

Book. Chapter. Verse.

Because verse 24 doesn't say it.
That 2000 year gap has clearly manifested itself, as Christ has not yet returned. Do you deny this? Because it seems you have.... for many centuries Jerusalem was trampled by Gentiles. But I sense you also do not believe there are any real Jews left alive.... However there definitely are billions of gentiles, they controlled the land for a very long time now.
 

Scott Downey

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Christ has not yet come again a second time in a visible glorious return, where every eye sees Him even those who pierced Him (romans who put Him to death), but maybe some people think differently! Ha!

KJ21
Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

Where is He coming a second time?? To the earth...on the Great Day to judge the world in righteousness

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [a]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
 

Scott Downey

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Hebrews 9

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Acts 3
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before,

21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.


22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'