Thoughts on Church Unity

[aspen]

that strikes me as a poor interp; always has. Might be me. But what church has ever only had two members? And don't they gather intentionally, iow not "are gathered?" Imo there are better ways to look at that passage than trying to make it mean "church" or "congregation," even if that is what people usually think.

And "in My Name" is taken to mean "talking about Jesus," when imo Christ likely has a different meaning in mind there too.

It wasn't meant to be an interpretation - I was just using the sentence structure to make a larger point that bureaucracy in unavoidable when people work together - the more people the more bureaucracy. The Roman Catholic Church is international and has around 1 billion people to manage - bureaucracy is necessary and there are consequences.

The wording is based, of course, on Jesus encouraging his disciples that when two or more are gathered he is in their midsts. It is obviously not meant to be a math equation - it was more of a colloquialism - like, 'I am with you always'. I think it was similar to when Jesus warned about end time signs - the warning was meant as his return was 'eminent' not as a formula to discover a new phase of history.

 

[amadeus]

The wording is based, of course, on Jesus encouraging his disciples that when two or more are gathered he is in their midsts. It is obviously not meant to be a math equation - it was more of a colloquialism - like, 'I am with you always'. I think it was similar to when Jesus warned about end time signs - the warning was meant as his return was 'eminent' not as a formula to discover a new phase of history.

I would certainly not call it a "colloquialism". Rather, if I did not understand I would search to see and also ask God to show just what it means to have Jesus in our midst. The key that I was shown, was that the gathering of 2 or 3 is "in His name". When we understand what that means, probably we will also understand what it means when we gather together like that.

 

[aspen]

I would certainly not call it a "colloquialism". Rather, if I did not understand I would search to see and also ask God to show just what it means to have Jesus in our midst. The key that I was shown, was that the gathering of 2 or 3 is "in His name". When we understand what that means, probably we will also understand what it means when we gather together like that.

Jesus is omnipresent - He is always in our midsts. Not sure why you are suggesting that I do not understand the verse - we may disagree on the interpretation, but I think we both are thinking, praying Christians

 

[amadeus]

Jesus is omnipresent - He is always in our midsts. Not sure why you are suggesting that I do not understand the verse - we may disagree on the interpretation, but I think we both are thinking, praying Christians

I do not understand your mind or heart my friend. Even if we disagree on a point, it is surely not the end of the road for either of us, is it? Yes, God is omnipresent, but is there not a special presence in a believer that an unbeliever cannot have? Is this not what Jesus is saying in the verse under discussion?

 

[aspen]

I do not understand your mind or heart my friend. Even if we disagree on a point, it is surely not the end of the road for either of us, is it? Yes, God is omnipresent, but is there not a special presence in a believer that an unbeliever cannot have? Is this not what Jesus is saying in the verse under discussion?

I think believers recognize Jesus's presence - nonbelievers do not and therefore, miss out on having a mutual relationship

 

[amadeus]

I think believers recognize Jesus's presence - nonbelievers do not and therefore, miss out on having a mutual relationship

That my friend is a good answer. The problem, I believe, is that some who are believers do not always recognize the voice of our Lord and mix it with other voices heard. His sheep do know the difference or are at least are learning it.

 

[mjrhealth]

nonbelievers do not and therefore, miss out on having a mutual relationship

The question is who is the believer, for even Jesus question those who claimed to be His.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

and

Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


There seems to be a major gap between what man calls christians and what Jesus considers Christians, those that know Him.

 

[bbyrd009]

It wasn't meant to be an interpretation - I was just using the sentence structure to make a larger point that bureaucracy in unavoidable when people work together - the more people the more bureaucracy. The Roman Catholic Church is international and has around 1 billion people to manage - bureaucracy is necessary and there are consequences.

The wording is based, of course, on Jesus encouraging his disciples that when two or more are gathered he is in their midsts. It is obviously not meant to be a math equation - it was more of a colloquialism - like, 'I am with you always'. I think it was similar to when Jesus warned about end time signs - the warning was meant as his return was 'eminent' not as a formula to discover a new phase of history.

ah ok, then that said, are there any instances where two or more are gathered that does not become an institution, i wonder. Because i agree that we do seem to do that, and we actually often avoid chance encounters, it seems.

The Catholic Church is the only organization i know of that distributes charity regardless of affiliation--inviting chance encounters iow, although i doubt it is viewed through that lens much.

 

[bbyrd009]

There seems to be a major gap between what man calls christians and what Jesus considers Christians, those that know Him.

yes, i would lose this "believer/unbeliever" distinction that we make, sooner over later. I notice--once again--that Catholic Charities does ask about affiliation, but as near as i could tell Wiccans got the same treatment as everyone else. And i was there to throw stones, initially.

And non-believers certainly seemed to exhibit appreciation at about the same ratio as believers; and maybe a bit less entitlement actually, come to think of it.

 

[bbyrd009]

making a "believer/unbeliever" distinction is just another way to put oneself in a subject/object relationship, seems to me. We imagine this is necessary in order to gauge where our duty lies with this person--at least ostensibly--when that can be dismantled pretty quickly imo. Although i haven't found a mutually pleasant way of doing that yet lol

 

[amadeus]

The question is who is the believer, for even Jesus question those who claimed to be His.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

and

Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


There seems to be a major gap between what man calls christians and what Jesus considers Christians, those that know Him.

Ah yes, this is a problem for many people. Supposedly over 80% of people in the United States are Christians, but if the word, Christian, really means Christ-like, I wonder at what I see around me. Our society does not look to me like something what would be pleasing to God. Even if they were all just babes in the Lord, shouldn't our society be getting better as God would define better?

 

[Marymog]

You must go with what is in your heart. Our problem sometime is that we listen to God, but don't listen long enough. When we stopped listening, had He already finished talking?

As to who is right, consider that we, we believers that is, are all likely at different levels in our walk with Him. Our understanding of what He says is geared to where we are at the moment at what the situation is. Only God always knows all of the details about everyone. Consider the following conversation between the Lord and Ananias:

"Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." Acts 9:13-16
Ananias was a faithful follower of the Lord, but he questioned God because he knew the history of Paul and what he knew was not good. God set him straight about how Paul was a chosen vessel of God. Ananias was a good man, but in this case he was partially blind and therefore wrong.
When we disagree with a brother or sister in the Lord on beliefs, we need to immerse ourselves in the most important thing, which Paul was later to clarify: charity [love] as per I Cor 13:4-7. That is to say we don't go for the arm twisting sessions to win another over to our way of thinking, but simply walk the walk as we are led by the Holy Spirit and don't worry so much about what appears to be wrong in the other guy. Pray for one another and God will handle the situation moving each one into his/her place within the Body of Christ. The key to that, I believe, is "charity" and "surrender".
Remember also the writing of Solomon here:
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2
So should we likewise seek to ponder the hearts of others more even than putting so much emphasis on their doctrines and beliefs that may differ from ours. Who has it all right all of the time? Jesus is the only one that I know who walked in flesh as a man and had it all right all of the time. We should be on the approach to where Jesus was as a man, but we are not yet at the end of our road. We are not yet finished growing in Him and toward Him.

Hi,

Using your analogy that we "...are all likely at different levels in our walk with Him..." wouldn't that mean that someone that has been faithfully walking with Him for 50+ years is going to be more knowledgeable, wiser and better about interpreting scripture than a person who has been faithfully walking with him for only 5-10 years?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

Hi,

Using your analogy that we "...are all likely at different levels in our walk with Him..." wouldn't that mean that someone that has been faithfully walking with Him for 50+ years is going to be more knowledgeable, wiser and better about interpreting scripture than a person who has been faithfully walking with him for only 5-10 years?

Curious Mary

Why are you looking for an absolute answer, a black and white conclusion based on incomplete information?

God is looking at the heart, for He can see the heart of each of us. Who else can? God doesn't look to our ability or even our experience [time in grade?] but to our availability first.

The Apostle Paul wrote:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Some babies never grow up.

When a person is a physical baby he/she presents the apparent natural selfishness of the inexperienced his/her behavior is usually accepted for what it is. Perhaps a wise parent will work to help the child to grow away from this apparent selfishness, which in time usually becomes real selfishness if left to itself. A selfish teenager will be less acceptable than a selfish baby and a selfish adult will find probably he/she has no friends at all.

God looks to the physically adult Christian who still babbles differently than to the adult Christian who eats meat and communicates clearly. What is babble and what is clear communication? What is knowledgeable and what is faithful? God knows the answer in each case. Who else does?

Moses told God that he was unable to speak well, but God did not choose him for his ability. God could and would supply whatever was needed to accomplish God's purpose. The same is true now. Never mind the 5 years versus the 50 years.

 

[Marymog]

That is quite amazing...because when ever I ask God about someone else, or what that person believes...He never ever says:- " They are wrong"...He always says to me. ." What is that to you, you follow ME." So here we have another instant where God says one thing to one person and something else to another!!

My dear friend ByGrace,

You are right. This is "ANOTHER INSTANT where says one thing to one person and something else to another."

Some famous instances are when God told the men of the Catholic Church one thing and M. Luther something different and H. Zwingli something different then Luther and the Church and J. Calvin something different than Luther, Zwingli and the Church.

D. Erasmus was told something different by God so he rejected M. Luther. Pierre Ameaux and Ami Perrin were told something different by God so they rejected John Calvin. John Smyth was an Anglican priest and God told him something different so he broke away and started the Baptist church....and on and on and on and on.

So God has allegedly told MANY people that other people are wrong about the interpretation of scripture. Some of them started their own Church and now have thousands if not millions of followers. Maybe, someday, based on what God has told me I will have millions of followers....or maybe Pia will.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Why are you looking for an absolute answer, a black and white conclusion based on incomplete information?
God is looking at the heart, for He can see the heart of each of us. Who else can? God doesn't look to our ability or even our experience [time in grade?] but to our availability first.
The Apostle Paul wrote:
"For we dare no make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12
Some babies never grow up.
When a person is a physical baby he/she presents the apparent natural selfishness of the inexperienced his/her behavior is usually accepted for what it is. Perhaps a wise parent will work to help the child to grow away from this apparent selfishness, which in time usually becomes real selfishness if left to itself. A selfish teenager will be less acceptable than a selfish baby and a selfish adult will find probably he/she has no friends at all.
God looks to the physically adult Christian who still babbles differently than to the adult Christian who eats meat and communicates clearly. What is babble and what is clear communication? What is knowledgeable and what is faithful? God knows the answer in each case. Who else does?
Moses told God that he was unable to speak well, but God did not choose him for his ability. God could and would supply whatever was needed to accomplish God's purpose. The same is true now. Never mind the 5 years versus the 50 years.

I think I get your point.

A person that has only been reading scripture 5 years could be wiser and more knowledgeable about scripture than the person reading it for 50 years. Don't mind the 5 years versus the 50 years; just go with what is in my heart.

I know people who in their heart believe abortion is not murder. Are they right since a there is no black and white conclusion about abortion in scripture?

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Mary

 

[amadeus]

I think I get your point.

A person that has only been reading scripture 5 years could be wiser and more knowledgeable about scripture than the person reading it for 50 years. Don't mind the 5 years versus the 50 years; just go with what is in my heart.

I know people who in their heart believe abortion is not murder. Are they right since a there is no black and white conclusion about abortion in scripture?

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Mary

To me abortion would almost always be murder, but I am careful not to render a final judgment that would apply to every case, because I do not know the facts of every case. Consider the words of the Apostle Paul here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

Quite often people will say those words means a believer [in Christ] should not marry one who does not believe, yet look at this:

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son." Hosea 1:2-3

God told the prophet to marry a harlot. The scripture also says in more than one place that God does not change. So if all the scripture is written by man inspired by God, what is the answer? Read Hosea to see why God told him to marry that woman.

God has His reasons for what He does. His reasons are always good for He is always good, but man has his own definitions for what is good. Sometimes they agree with God... and sometimes they do not. This is why a follower of Christ, one of his sheep must always be listen to the Master's voice and obeying as he moves along. Memorizing scripture and rules apparently described in scripture such as we call the 10 commandments is not an evil practice in itself, but we also must always be hearing what God is saying to us now.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

Sometimes as we approach God we will understand His ways, but to presume that we always do is likely to be a mistake.

 

[Marymog]

To me abortion would almost always be murder, but I am careful not to render a final judgment that would apply to every case, because I do not know the facts of every case. Consider the words of the Apostle Paul here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

Quite often people will say those words means a believer [in Christ] should not marry one who does not believe, yet look at this:

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son." Hosea 1:2-3

God told the prophet to marry a harlot. The scripture also says in more than one place that God does not change. So if all the scripture is written by man inspired by God, what is the answer? Read Hosea to see why God told him to marry that woman.

God has His reasons for what He does. His reasons are always good for He is always good, but man has his own definitions for what is good. Sometimes they agree with God... and sometimes they do not. This is why a follower of Christ, one of his sheep must always be listen to the Master's voice and obeying as he moves along. Memorizing scripture and rules apparently described in scripture such as we call the 10 commandments is not an evil practice in itself, but we also must always be hearing what God is saying to us now.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

Sometimes as we approach God we will understand His ways, but to presume that we always do is likely to be a mistake.

Thank you for your very thoughtful, complete and well articulated response.

I myself up until about three weeks ago thought that 2Cor 6:14 was about married people. I am still young in my walk.

When one usually discusses abortion with another it is generally understood in that discussion that ABORTION means: aborting the child due to the convenience (a child didn't fit into their lifestyle) or embarrassment or lack of finances to care for the said child etc. Based on that criteria and criteria like it do you feel comfortable rendering a "final judgment" on that person? (I am not making this an abortion debate. I am just using abortion as a means to and end or our discussion).

Also, the way you speak (write) I am wondering if you are a pastor of a church? (BTW...that is a compliment)

Thank you....Mary

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for your very thoughtful, complete and well articulated response.

I myself up until about three weeks ago thought that 2Cor 6:14 was about married people. I am still young in my walk.

When one usually discusses abortion with another it is generally understood in that discussion that ABORTION means: aborting the child due to the convenience (a child didn't fit into their lifestyle) or embarrassment or lack of finances to care for the said child etc. Based on that criteria and criteria like it do you feel comfortable rendering a "final judgment" on that person? (I am not making this an abortion debate. I am just using abortion as a means to and end or our discussion).

Also, the way you speak (write) I am wondering if you are a pastor of a church? (BTW...that is a compliment)

Thank you....Mary

Aborting a child for one's own convenience is likely to always be wrong. But... having said that the final decision still would not be mine even if I were speaking to the woman bearing the baby. I would hope to let her know what her decision meant to the child as well as to her in the long run with God.

Jesus laid down his own life. [No one could have forced it on him he had chosen to resist.] In the case of a mother and the child she bears, she may believe that she is choosing for herself her own "happiness" [or whatever her seemingly good reasons are] rather than those of the unborn child. What Jesus did is seen in these words of the Apostle Paul:

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Phil 2:3

Jesus chose to give up any hope he in his very human flesh had of being a father, a husband, a homeowner, and all of the many other things that people may enjoy or look forward to as human beings. He did it because it was his Father's will. He did so that you and I and others could have an chance to get back what Adam and Eve lost for us in Eden, the opportunity to eat of the Tree of Life. God wants us to eat of that Tree, but He won't allow anyone to do so, just because they want to... They must come to the Tree properly prepared. Jesus made that possible.

No, I am not a pastor. I am presently submitted to a pastor who is 92 years old. He received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1936 and very soon thereafter was called by God to serve Him as a minister. He lost his wife to cancer 5 years ago. Jesus has always been first in his life, but since losing his wife he has worked on in the Lord in spite of the large empty place which his wife filled for 66 years. I work now to help him but I cannot keep up. I need more of God myself to do what that man [my pastor] needs from me.

 

[Marymog]

Aborting a child for one's own convenience is likely to always be wrong. But... having said that the final decision still would not be mine even if I were speaking to the woman bearing the baby. I would hope to let her know what her decision meant to the child as well as to her in the long run with God.

Thank you.

If it was convenient for a robber to kill his victim so that he could get away with his crime and have no witnesses would that also "likely ALWAYS be wrong" or just sometimes wrong?

Would the robber be guilty of murder?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

Thank you.

If it was convenient for a robber to kill his victim so that he could get away with his crime and have no witnesses would that also "likely ALWAYS be wrong" or just sometimes wrong?

Would the robber be guilty of murder?

Curious Mary

As always, God whose judgment it is, would look at the heart of perpetrator. When we see a robber who robbed who simply robbed in order to get something he did not have without having to work for it as opposed to the robber who robbed because he really had some unavoidable difficulties which made it hard or impossible to feed his family, you can see the difference. But, both robbers were wrong. Without the killing of the victim both would required punishment according to man's law and God's law, but the circumstances could make the degree of punishment different.

The reason why the robber killed his victim would of course make a difference. In the OT [Old Testament] when a person broke one of the laws he had to pay for the loss he caused plus sometimes penalty amount. The payment would required when he became aware of his indiscretion if he was initially ignorant that he had broken a law. If the law was broken knowingly and intentionally the punishment included a death sentence. God instituted those laws.

Consider the case of King David of Israel. He committed adultery with Bathsheba and gave orders to his military commander to place the woman's legal husband in the worst part of an on going battle with an enemy so that the husband would die. The punishment under the law given by God to Moses for murder or for adultery was death. David was guilty of both. David knew that when the prophet of God confronted him and was willing to suffer his punishment. In spite of his repentance the black and white facts said he was guilty of both charges. See below what happened:

"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." II Sam 12:13-14

David's sentence of death was "put away" by the One who gave the law to Moses. In my own case, if I were the judge and had all of the facts as well as knowing the law, I would have had him put to death. That was the law. God put away his sin and did not invoke the death penalty.

God showed mercy. Why would be so hard for me to do so? What did God see in David's heart?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Again what was in David's heart? What is in the heart of the man in your example? God knows, but if I do not, what can I do?