Thoughts on Church Unity

[Marymog]

As always, God whose judgment it is, would look at the heart of perpetrator. When we see a robber who robbed who simply robbed in order to get something he did not have without having to work for it as opposed to the robber who robbed because he really had some unavoidable difficulties which made it hard or impossible to feed his family, you can see the difference. But, both robbers were wrong. Without the killing of the victim both would required punishment according to man's law and God's law, but the circumstances could make the degree of punishment different.

The reason why the robber killed his victim would of course make a difference. In the OT [Old Testament] when a person broke one of the laws he had to pay for the loss he caused plus sometimes penalty amount. The payment would required when he became aware of his indiscretion if he was initially ignorant that he had broken a law. If the law was broken knowingly and intentionally the punishment included a death sentence. God instituted those laws.

Consider the case of King David of Israel. He committed adultery with Bathsheba and gave orders to his military commander to place the woman's legal husband in the worst part of an on going battle with an enemy so that the husband would die. The punishment under the law given by God to Moses for murder or for adultery was death. David was guilty of both. David knew that when the prophet of God confronted him and was willing to suffer his punishment. In spite of his repentance the black and white facts said he was guilty of both charges. See below what happened:

"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." II Sam 12:13-14

David's sentence of death was "put away" by the One who gave the law to Moses. In my own case, if I were the judge and had all of the facts as well as knowing the law, I would have had him put to death. That was the law. God put away his sin and did not invoke the death penalty.

God showed mercy. Why would be so hard for me to do so? What did God see in David's heart?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Again what was in David's heart? What is in the heart of the man in your example? God knows, but if I do not, what can I do?

You make excellent points and use scripture to back it up. I appreciate that.

David confessed his sin, fasted and prayed.

If the robber/murderer never confesses his sin, fasted and prayed are they guilty of murder and will they go to hell?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

You make excellent points and use scripture to back it up. I appreciate that.

David confessed his sin, fasted and prayed.

If the robber/murderer never confesses his sin, fasted and prayed are they guilty of murder and will they go to hell?

Curious Mary

Likely if man's law got hold of him and had proper evidence he would receive that punishment, but to repent to God is another thing, is it not? Consider the one we call the good thief who died on the cross next to Jesus. The man had already admitted his own guilt and that his own condemnation was deserved yet...

"And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:41-43

Earthly punishment, but also a promise of paradise from our Lord! What of the other thief on the cross who wanted Jesus to save his from crucifixion?
I won't speak of hell here as that is another subject.

 

[Marymog]

Likely if man's law got hold of him and had proper evidence he would receive that punishment, but to repent to God is another thing, is it not? Consider the one we call the good thief who died on the cross next to Jesus. The man had already admitted his own guilt and that his own condemnation was deserved yet...

"And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:41-43

Earthly punishment, but also a promise of paradise from our Lord! What of the other thief on the cross who wanted Jesus to save his from crucifixion?
I won't speak of hell here as that is another subject.

Thank you.

I never asked about mans law. Mans law has nothing to do with Gods law so I don't understand how you are equating the two.

The good thief, like David, admitted his sin. The good thief was then told that today you shall be with me in paradise. So, ONCE AGAIN, we have a confession and then salvation.

Therefor, ONCE AGAIN, I ask you:
If the robber/murderer never confesses his sin, never fasted and never prayed about the sin he commited are they guilty of murder and will they go to hell?

I am not trying to argue with you. I am just looking for an alternative to my understanding of scripture. You seem to be knowledgeable so I am asking you.

Curios Mary

 

[amadeus]

Thank you.

I never asked about mans law. Mans law has nothing to do with Gods law so I don't understand how you are equating the two.

The good thief, like David, admitted his sin. The good thief was then told that today you shall be with me in paradise. So, ONCE AGAIN, we have a confession and then salvation.

Therefor, ONCE AGAIN, I ask you:
If the robber/murderer never confesses his sin, never fasted and never prayed about the sin he commited are they guilty of murder and will they go to hell?

I am not trying to argue with you. I am just looking for an alternative to my understanding of scripture. You seem to be knowledgeable so I am asking you.

Curios Mary

Quite simply, I agree that God may let a person off as He did with David because of David's heart.

As to hell, I am an anihilationist, which means simply that I don't believe in eternal torment for unbelievers. I believe rather that they simply cease to exist. I did not want to mention that because I really don't want to argue with anyone about it. This is a public forum.

 

[Marymog]

Quite simply, I agree that God may let a person off as He did with David because of David's heart.

As to hell, I am an anihilationist, which means simply that I don't believe in eternal torment for unbelievers. I believe rather that they simply cease to exist. I did not want to mention that because I really don't want to argue with anyone about it. This is a public forum.

No argument here sir.

You are completely and utterly wrong in your belief about annihilationism and I don't think I could say anything that would change your mind about this recent theory or misinterpretation of scripture so I will let it go.

Thank you for your articulate responses on everything else though.

Love Mary

 

[Job]

As to hell, I am an anihilationist, which means simply that I don't believe in eternal torment for unbelievers. I believe rather that they simply cease to exist.

Would you mind sharing the scriptures that gave you this belief? I don't need an explanation of why you believe this, I just want to see the scriptures. If you're uncomfortable sharing on an open forum, send me a PM. And just so you know, I agree with you.

o

 

[bbyrd009]

One could not find a single instance of the hell in the afterlife in Scripture that you have been assured exists, no matter how hard you tried. You got scribed, people

Gehenna and hell as we understand it are anathema to each other

 

[Job]

anathema

Word of the Day toilet paper? Catholic version.

o

 

[Pisteuo]

The Truth About Hell

 

[bbyrd009]

Word of the Day toilet paper? Catholic version.

o

lol, my Asperger's showing i guess

anathema? really? hmm

 

[bbyrd009]

The Truth About Hell

Restored Church of God wow. Def the most lucid exegesis i have ever read

 

[amadeus]

Would you mind sharing the scriptures that gave you this belief? I don't need an explanation of why you believe this, I just want to see the scriptures. If you're uncomfortable sharing on an open forum, send me a PM. And just so you know, I agree with you.

o

This is not something I have thought much about in a long time, so I will simply post here a copy of something I wrote down a number of years ago:

The fire that consumes and causes those within it to wail and gnash their teeth is God, Himself. He is the consuming fire [Deut 4:24, Deut 9:3, Heb 12:29]. The results of direct contact with God is shown by example with the three Hebrews thrown into the fire of Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 3: 16-27. Only the ropes binding them were burned. They nor their clothes were burned and they did not even have the smell of smoke on them after being thrown in the fire. On the other hand, the strong soldiers who threw them into the fire died because they came to close to the fire great heat. The same fire that destroys sin and sinners is embraced by true believers.

The fire that Moses saw in the bush caught his attention because it did not consume the bush [see Exodus 3:4]. The bush, of course, had not sinned.

Notice that the following verse in Ezekiel does not say that the sinning soul will live forever in torment. It says that it will die.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezek 18:4

And Isaiah also speaks not of eternal torment but rather final and total destruction:


“They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.” Isa 26:14

And Ecclesiastes says nothing about the dead suffering pain or torment. It says that they know nothing:

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:5

And the New Testament:

Based on the following words why should we think that unbelievers will also live?

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26

The following words the “fire is not quenched” speak of God abiding forever rather than an unending punishment.

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44
The worm that doesn’t die is not man or man’s soul. It is the worms in the earth where we are buried that consume the remains of the dead body of a man.

Job expects another reward via a resurrection, but he knows what will happen to his body in the grave:

“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:” Job 19:26

Isaiah also speaks of the worms:

“Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.” Isa. 14:11

“For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.” Isa 51:8

And Paul speaks of results of sin and death rather than eternal pain and suffering:

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 6:23

The only ones Jesus speaks of as never dying are who?




The following verse is often used by some to show an eternal torment, but considering its apparent conflict with other verses cited???

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Rev 14:11

Perhaps the question to ask here is, What is the “smoke of their torment”?

“But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Psalm 37:20

They perish and there is nothing left of them but smoke…

David also knows what will be the final result of the wicked. He does not say that they will suffer eternal torment. He says that they perish!

“As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” Psalm 68:2

And then again what about this which says that the devil shall be tormented forever?

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Rev 20:10

And then this?

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev 20:15

Cast into the lake of fire, but this does not spell out eternal torment for them does it?

As for a place called “hell”?

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Rev 20:14

Is hell something more than the grave in which our natural body of flesh is placed when it dies?

 

[Helen]

@amadeus Great post Amadeus! I too believe ( as you well know) in God being The Consuming Fire. Except I go one step further and believe that He burns up all that has nothing 'of Him'...
Jesus says- " Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."
I believe God will look for Himself into every person...and search the hearts, for that which is not of Him , and the dross will be burned up by The Consuming Fire. All things shall be tested by Fire.
As we died in the first Adam, and we come alive in The Last Adam.
Only time will tell, and He will show us all what His last amazing Plan will actually be for His creation. I would not dare to say 'I am right'...I hold what I have lightly and bow to our wonderful Lord.
Whatever His Plan is, it will be wonderful. ✟

 

[mjrhealth]

Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

I think sometimes Gods plan is above and beyond us, so ill just leave it to Him. I look at it this way, If it is a battle between good and evil, and the devil was to gain one soul, than good has lost. There may have being and still are men in this world who deserve nothing less than eternal suffering but in the end of it all none of deserves salvation so why should only those in Him get it. God is full of surprises so wont be surprised at all.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus Great post Amadeus! I too believe ( as you well know) in God being The Consuming Fire. Except I go one step further and believe that He burns up all that has nothing 'of Him'...
Jesus says- " Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."
I believe God will look for Himself into every person...and search the hearts, for that which is not of Him , and the dross will be burned up by The Consuming Fire. All things shall be tested by Fire.
As we died in the first Adam, and we come alive in The Last Adam.
Only time will tell, and He will show us all what His last amazing Plan will actually be for His creation. I would not dare to say 'I am right'...I hold what I have lightly and bow to our wonderful Lord.
Whatever His Plan is, it will be wonderful. ✟

Amen!
In the beginning, God created everything very good. In the end all of that which is not "very good' will be burned up. For those who have served God, the dross will be gone and only the pure and clean will remain:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I Cor 3:11-17

I really don't expect everyone here to jump on my bandwagon. I believe what I do on this and other things. Over the years, I have changed or been changed on many things, but it never in my recollection happened very suddenly. People need to make allowances for people.. that is to show charity for them, toward them. It is not my way that matters, but God. If I remain pliable will He not change anything that needs to be changed?

 

[amadeus]

Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

I think sometimes Gods plan is above and beyond us, so ill just leave it to Him. I look at it this way, If it is a battle between good and evil, and the devil was to gain one soul, than good has lost. There may have being and still are men in this world who deserve nothing less than eternal suffering but in the end of it all none of deserves salvation so why should only those in Him get it. God is full of surprises so wont be surprised at all.

Amen, my friend! People get into trouble because they being certain they have it right take it up in their own hands and try to run with it. If what they have God already knows it and He has it all under control. He wants people to come to Him of their own accord because they love Him, not because someone has twisted their arm to make it so.

 

[Pisteuo]

Restored Church of God wow.

Yeah it was a new one to me. Never heard of them but it was good read, imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah it was a new one to me. Never heard of them but it was good read, imo.

well, i slept on it, and i guess i have never heard of them either! We have churches on every corner where i currently am, i'll hafta see if one is nearby i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

well, i slept on it, and i guess i have never heard of them either! We have churches on every corner where i currently am, i'll hafta see if one is nearby i guess

then again, maybe not
To All Who Are Considering Joining Restored Church of God

 

[Pisteuo]

Seen that....and more. Lots of criticism of the guy out there and maybe for good reason, idk. Good read on hell anyway.