Time to move on

[GodsGrace]

What do we really understand that can accurately be communicated to a person whose beliefs or understandings or definitions are different than ours? I see no one really understanding the trinity. Someone told them it was right and it fits some of the scriptures if no one messes too much with the definitions.

As a child in the Catholic Church I paid lip service to it because that is what the nuns taught us in catechism. They even has prepared picture of a three-leaf clover as a visual aid to go with their explanation. The priest probably mentioned it in some of his talks over the years, but no one gave a better explanation than nun. When I left my regular formal connection to them when I went off to school, I left my last definition connection with the trinity. When God called me back to Him it was through a Oneness Jesus Only group [the UPC] and I have never returned to the trinity even closely.

As to divine, what is the definition of the word? Does it necessarily and always mean no beginning and no ending? Does it necessarily and always mean the One God only?

What if God created Jesus to be a creator/Creator? Is God unable to create a creator? The verse I look to for help in understanding is this one:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou" Gen 41:40

It would be a type or shadow of the difference between the Father God and Jesus. Pharaoh as the Father and Joseph as Jesus.

Ooops. I missed this.
I don't have a problem with someone not believing in the Trinity,
I have a problem with them calling themselves a Christian.
If traditional Christianity believes in Jesus as God, the HolySpirit as God, since they were begotten, NOT MADE, one in being with the Father, as the N.T. teaches us that Jesus and God are ONE, not two separate entities, then how does one who does not believe this call himself a Christian?

There are some basic beliefs to being a Christian:
1. Belief in God the creator
2. Jesus as His begotten Son.
3. A virgin birth because God is the Father.
4. Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God, to free us from satan.
5. He was resurrected on the third day.
6. We will all be resurrected and the judgement will come (one way or another).
7. The Holy Spirit is God.
8. We believe in Jesus for our salvation in the New Covenant.

Seems like a lot, but it's really simple.
For instance, we say that it's only necessary to believe in Jesus. But Jesus who?
Who is He? Is He merely a man, the Messiah, God?
If one doesn't believe in the virgin birth, then who is His father?
Do we believe in the resurrection? Reincarnation?
And so on. If we don't believe the above, exactly what makes us be Christian?
I think I had a thread on this when I first got here because some here do not believe Jesus is God and yet they call themselves Chrisitian.

 

[amadeus]

Ooops. I missed this.
I don't have a problem with someone not believing in the Trinity,
I have a problem with them calling themselves a Christian.

Ah then who is to decide who should be called a Christian or not and who is to decide what it means to be a Christian? The word, "Christian" is only used twice in my KJV. According to the Strong's lexicon it apparently means a "follower of Christ".

If traditional Christianity believes in Jesus as God, the HolySpirit as God, since they were begotten, NOT MADE, one in being with the Father, as the N.T. teaches us that Jesus and God are ONE, not two separate entities, then how does one who does not believe this call himself a Christian?

If a person is really striving to follow Christ according to what he understands at the moment, who but God could say he was not a "follower of Christ? Of course, the word, "Christian" is only a word and as you and I know it is not uncommon for people to call themselves Christian who really know little or nothing about what Jesus was and is...

There are some basic beliefs to being a Christian:
1. Belief in God the creator

I have no problem with that one.

2. Jesus as His begotten Son.

I have no problem with this but I know that some people want to argue about what "begotten" means. I am not certain why.

3. A virgin birth because God is the Father.

OK

4. Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God, to free us from satan.

I am not disagreeing, but I would rather say that Jesus died so that we could have the Life which was lost to us.

5. He was resurrected on the third day.

OK

6. We will all be resurrected and the judgement will come (one way or another).

I don't believe that people who never obtained the Life that Jesus is will be resurrected, but I'm not arguing the point here.

7. The Holy Spirit is God.

I see the Holy Spirit as being what some common call God the Father rather than a separate part or entity or person. Again I am not arguing the point here.

8. We believe in Jesus for our salvation in the New Covenant.

Yes.

Seems like a lot, but it's really simple.
For instance, we say that it's only necessary to believe in Jesus. But Jesus who?
Who is He? Is He merely a man, the Messiah, God?
If one doesn't believe in the virgin birth, then who is His father?
Do we believe in the resurrection? Reincarnation?
And so on. If we don't believe the above, exactly what makes us be Christian?
I think I had a thread on this when I first got here because some here do not believe Jesus is God and yet they call themselves Chrisitian.

Your questions point to several places where people disagree with each other. How important is each point to an individual's final salvation? I would say sometimes it could be critical but what is critical for one person is not necessarily always be critical for another. Since I have seldom, if ever, been privy in that much detail to what is really in another believer's heart, I try to stand away from making a final judgment even though in my mind I may well have an opinion. I need to recognize that that opinion if it comes only from me is worthless.

So is all of this is still putting emphasis on whether or not a person should bear the label, Christian? It is still just a word and matters not at all if the heart is right [or wrong] with God. The label is for man's benefit perhaps for easy identification, but for God? The label cannot and should not be a basis for our final judgment [if we think one is needed], or...?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah then who is to decide who should be called a Christian or not and who is to decide what it means to be a Christian? The word, "Christian" is only used twice in my KJV. According to the Strong's lexicon it apparently means a "follower of Christ".


If a person is really striving to follow Christ according to what he understands at the moment, who but God could say he was not a "follower of Christ? Of course, the word, "Christian" is only a word and as you and I know it is not uncommon for people to call themselves Christian who really know little or nothing about what Jesus was and is...


I have no problem with that one.

I have no problem with this but I know that some people want to argue about what "begotten" means. I am not certain why.

OK

I am not disagreeing, but I would rather say that Jesus died so that we could have the Life which was lost to us.


OK

I don't believe that people who never obtained the Life that Jesus is will be resurrected, but I'm not arguing the point here.

I see the Holy Spirit as being what some common call God the Father rather than a separate part or entity or person. Again I am not arguing the point here.

Yes.



Your questions point to several places where people disagree with each other. How important is each point to an individual's final salvation? I would say sometimes it could be critical but what is critical for one person is not necessarily always be critical for another. Since I have seldom, if ever, been privy in that much detail to what is really in another believer's heart, I try to stand away from making a final judgment even though in my mind I may well have an opinion. I need to recognize that that opinion if it comes only from me is worthless.

So is all of this is still putting emphasis on whether or not a person should bear the label, Christian? It is still just a word and matters not at all if the heart is right [or wrong] with God. The label is for man's benefit perhaps for easy identification, but for God? The label cannot and should not be a basis for our final judgment [if we think one is needed], or...?

I know what you're talking about.
Many persons are ignorant of their faith and may not even have an inkling of the above. If they love Jesus they're Christian.

But those who post on this forum are intelligent persons and know their faith.
So, how could we not describe a Christian? We seem to be able to describe every other type of person. How do we differentiate between a Hindu and a Christian?
We have some Christians that believe in reincarnation. We have some that believe Jesus was the Messiah but not God. We have a poster here who believes Jesus was not born of a virgin and makes a point of it. (I think he might have left us).
This is wrong. If a person is a teacher, we can't call them an actor. A person is what he is. I'm not making any statement as to their salvation...this is not my problem and is above my pay scale. I AM saying that there must be a proper description to understanding what a Christian is.

 

[amadeus]

I know what you're talking about.
Many persons are ignorant of their faith and may not even have an inkling of the above. If they love Jesus they're Christian.

But those who post on this forum are intelligent persons and know their faith.
So, how could we not describe a Christian? We seem to be able to describe every other type of person. How do we differentiate between a Hindu and a Christian?

When each of us is presented with a situation where there is a need to describe, we will describe a Christian according to what God has already placed in our heart, according to what we already know or believe. He will have to deal with the apparent discrepancies between you and me and the other guy. I believe He is up to it.

We have some Christians that believe in reincarnation. We have some that believe Jesus was the Messiah but not God. We have a poster here who believes Jesus was not born of a virgin and makes a point of it. (I think he might have left us).

All people use their minds in deciding what they believe. This is not wrong. This is part of what is done. I believe is that when a person is really hungry and thirsty for righteousness of God then God will provide what is needed and this includes handling the misinformation that is very definitely floating around out there.

This is wrong. If a person is a teacher, we can't call them an actor. A person is what he is. I'm not making any statement as to their salvation...this is not my problem and is above my pay scale. I AM saying that there must be a proper description to understanding what a Christian is.

The "above your pay scale" view is a good one because it leaves the more difficult or even impossible [seemingly] details in the hands of the One who is fully able to handle them. The understanding we need of which you speak is one to effectively witness where we are and where we believe others who are serious should be or, at least, want to be.