To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[KUWN]

I'm completely confident that every English Bible translator got it right.

covenantee,

What about the 7 English translations that Tommy Ice presents? All 7 translate APOSTASIA as "departure." Who cares if they are reformers or not.

Also, the Greek BDAG Lexicon (dictionary) gives meaning of its "usages," not what the word means "by itself". A word has no meaning if there is not context. What is the meaning of the word 'bank' in English. There is no answer to that unless the word appears in a context. If a person finds a piece of paper with only one word on it, say 'bank' he is not sure if it is a place where you deposit money or if it is a shot in billiards. Words have usages, that is why if you look up bank in our English dictionary, it will have multiple usages.

Here is a good example. I looked through the extra-biblical usages of ASQENHS and discovered a likely meaning of the word is 'more vulnerable.' You will not find that in any Greek lexicon. The wives are more vulnerable with their feminine disposition, it is this disposition that the male finds so attractive. You are not going to discover that meaning in any English translation. The idea of ASQENHS is not that a husband can life a bigger rock, that would hardly be noteworthy. This is just one illustration of hundreds of other Greek words.

Anyway, I think we have beat this topic to death. I have other posts out here that I am looking for critique on, so I guess we can move on.

 

[covenantee]

What about the 7 English translations that Tommy Ice presents? All 7 translate APOSTASIA as "departure." Who cares if they are reformers or not.

Obviously you don't understand the explanations.

Anyway, I think we have beat this topic to death. I have other posts out here that I am looking for critique on, so I guess we can move on.

I agree.

 

[WPM]

covenantee,

What about the 7 English translations that Tommy Ice presents? All 7 translate APOSTASIA as "departure." Who cares if they are reformers or not.

Also, the Greek BDAG Lexicon (dictionary) gives meaning of its "usages," not what the word means "by itself". A word has no meaning if there is not context. What is the meaning of the word 'bank' in English. There is no answer to that unless the word appears in a context. If a person finds a piece of paper with only one word on it, say 'bank' he is not sure if it is a place where you deposit money or if it is a shot in billiards. Words have usages, that is why if you look up bank in our English dictionary, it will have multiple usages.

Here is a good example. I looked through the extra-biblical usages of ASQENHS and discovered a likely meaning of the word is 'more vulnerable.' You will not find that in any Greek lexicon. The wives are more vulnerable with their feminine disposition, it is this disposition that the male finds so attractive. You are not going to discover that meaning in any English translation. The idea of ASQENHS is not that a husband can life a bigger rock, that would hardly be noteworthy. This is just one illustration of hundreds of other Greek words.

Anyway, I think we have beat this topic to death. I have other posts out here that I am looking for critique on, so I guess we can move on.

Who cares what Tommy Ice says. His arguments have been repeatedly exposed. His theology is messed up. This is surely a sign you have lost the debate.

Let the Bible speak for itself rather than forcing your error upon it.

 

[WPM]

No debate? Then why the disagreements on this thread?

The Early Church Fathers (ECF) did write about ἀποστασία (apostasia), but their interpretations often varied depending on the theological context they were addressing, especially concerning end-times prophecies and heresies within the Church. Generally, the concept of apostasy for them was connected to a departure from true faith or an end-time rebellion against God.

1. Apostasy as Falling Away from Faith
The Church Fathers viewed apostasia primarily as a spiritual rebellion or departure from the Christian faith. They used the term to warn against heresies and false teachings.

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD)
In his work Against Heresies, Irenaeus repeatedly warns of apostasy as a departure from the truth of Christ and the gospel. He writes about the danger of following false teachers who lead believers away from sound doctrine:

"The Church, spread throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith…." (Against Heresies 1.10.1)
He equates apostasy with the rejection of the apostolic faith, linking it to heresies and Gnosticism that were rampant at the time.

Tertullian (c. 160–220 AD)
In his writings, Tertullian speaks of apostasy in connection with moral and doctrinal decay. He warns against those who would abandon the faith or be swayed by false teachings:

In his Prescription Against Heretics, he defends the purity of apostolic teaching, emphasizing that deviation from this tradition constitutes apostasy.

2. Apostasia in Eschatological Context
The ECFs often connected apostasy to end-times prophecies and the rise of the Antichrist.

Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD)
Hippolytus, in his work On Christ and Antichrist, wrote about ἀποστασία as part of the end-times events prophesied by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He linked the falling away to the final rebellion before the Antichrist's appearance:

"For this is that falling away, which has taken place in the world, through various errors and heresies…" (On Christ and Antichrist, 28)
Hippolytus viewed apostasy as not only a personal departure from faith but also as a widespread rebellion that would precede the return of Christ.

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313–386 AD)
In his Catechetical Lectures, Cyril talks about the end-time apostasy prophesied in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, linking it directly to the coming of the Antichrist. He saw it as a moral and spiritual rebellion leading to the Antichrist’s rise and eventual judgment:

"The Antichrist will first seize upon the kingdom of this world... and after he has accomplished everything by deceit... there will be a great apostasy." (Catechetical Lectures 15.11)

3. Warnings Against Apostasy in Practice
The Fathers often admonished their readers to guard against personal apostasy, urging them to remain firm in the faith.

Origen (c. 184–253 AD)
Origen saw apostasy as a danger to the soul. He emphasized staying rooted in the faith and avoiding spiritual rebellion:

"Those who fall away from the faith… those are the ones who bring about their own destruction." (On First Principles 3.1)
Origen also focused on the importance of continuous learning and spiritual growth to prevent apostasy from creeping into the Church.

John Chrysostom (c. 349–407 AD)
John Chrysostom, in his homilies, often spoke about the dangers of moral and doctrinal apostasy. He interpreted ἀποστασία as both a moral rebellion and abandonment of faith, warning his congregation to remain steadfast:

"Let us be mindful not to fall into apostasy, not just by word, but by turning our hearts away from Christ." (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians)
Conclusion:
The Early Church Fathers understood ἀποστασία primarily as a departure from faith or rebellion against God’s truth. While many of them focused on warning against heresies and false teachings within the Church, some—like Hippolytus and Cyril—connected it to end-times prophecies and the coming of the Antichrist. In either case, they saw apostasy as a serious danger, urging believers to remain faithful to the gospel and apostolic tradition.

Right?
J.

These are all talking about a final antichrist-inspired departure from the faith before the coming of Christ. None of them apply this to the rapture of the Church. That is a Pretrib invention. That is a fallacy.

 

[WPM]

Here's Tommy Ice's comment regarding APOSTASIA meaning departure in old English:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either
“departure” or “departing.”

They are as follows:
Wycliffe Bible (1384);
Tyndale Bible (1526);
Coverdale Bible (1535);
Cranmer Bible (1539);
Breeches Bible (1576);
Beza Bible (1583);
Geneva Bible (1608).

This supports the notion that the word truly means
“departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the
time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”

All of these translate APOSTASIA as departure. And these translations are hundreds of years before 1859.

Yes, and all these men were Amil. LOL. Your argument just went up in smoke.

 

[ewq1938]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anyone that says this event is the rapture. Here are 7 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

 

[covenantee]

Here's Tommy Ice's comment regarding APOSTASIA meaning departure in old English:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either
“departure” or “departing.”

They are as follows:
Wycliffe Bible (1384);
Tyndale Bible (1526);
Coverdale Bible (1535);
Cranmer Bible (1539);
Breeches Bible (1576);
Beza Bible (1583);
Geneva Bible (1608).

Here is Wycliffe's translation:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
[That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,

Wycliffe defines "departing away" as dissension.

Did you know that the rapture is dissension?

In fact, the original 1382 Wycliffe translation does not even use the word "departing":

2 Thessalonians 2 1382 Wycliffe

3	No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,

Poor Ice T.

Exposed and humiliated again.

 

[Johann]

Here is Wycliffe's translation:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
[That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,

Wycliffe defines "departing away" as dissension.

Did you know that the rapture is dissension?

In fact, the original 1382 Wycliffe translation does not even use the word "departing":

2 Thessalonians 2 1382 Wycliffe

3	No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,

Poor Ice T.

Exposed and humiliated again.

Why the need to expose and humiliate @covenantee?


1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit distinctly declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, because they continuously give their attention to deceiving spirits and the things that demons teach
1Ti 4:2 through the pretensions of false teachers, men with seared consciences,
1Ti 4:3 who forbid people to marry and teach them to abstain from certain sorts of food which God created for the grateful enjoyment of those who have faith and a clear knowledge of the truth.

Some shall fall away (apostēsontai tines). Future middle of aphistēmi, intransitive use, shall stand off from, to fall away, apostatize (2Co_12:8).
From the faith (tēs pisteōs). Ablative case (separation). Not creed, but faith in God through Christ.

Giving heed (prosechontes). Supply ton noun (the mind) as in 1Ti_3:8.

Seducing spirits (pneumasin planois). Old adjective (planē, wandering), here active sense (deceiving). As substantive in 2Co_6:8. Probably some heathen or the worst of the Gnostics.

Doctrines of devils (didaskaliais daimoniōn). “Teachings of daimons.” Definite explanation of the preceding. Cf. 1Co_10:20.
RWP.


The Training of the Leaders: A Sincere Faith – The next stage in setting a church in order is to train those who have been called out as bishops and deacons. Paul first establishes the purpose and function of the Church on earth by saying that it is “the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1Ti_3:15), placed upon this earth to reveal the “mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ” (1Ti_3:16). Thus, 1Ti_3:14-16 establishes our faith. However, there are those who will depart from this foundation of faith in Christ because of seducing spirits that deceive men with doctrines of devils (1Ti_4:1-5). Therefore, Timothy is to teach sound doctrine by “reading, to exhortation, to doctrine” (1Ti_4:6-16). It is in the continuation of teaching sound doctrine that a sincere faith is developed among the leadership as well as laity.

Outline – Here is a proposed outline:
1. Defining the Role of the Church — 1Ti_3:14-16
2. Warnings of Apostasy — 1Ti_4:1-5
3. Exhortation to Teach Sound Doctrine — 1Ti_4:6-16
In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul warns that "in later times some will turn away from the faith" due to their devotion to "deceiving spirits and teachings of demons." The context of this passage is Paul's letter to his protégé Timothy, providing guidance on maintaining sound doctrine within the church and guarding against false teachings that could lead believers astray. This verse emphasizes the prophetic nature of the Holy Spirit's declaration, indicating a clear and urgent warning that spiritual deception will grow more prevalent in future times, leading to apostasy.

Context.
Paul connects the spiritual deception to demonic influences, suggesting that false teachings are not merely human errors but spiritually motivated lies that corrupt the truth of the gospel. The "deceiving spirits" refer to entities that entice believers away from the faith, while the "things that demons teach" are doctrines or ideas that are contrary to God's truth, often manifested in distorted religious or moral teachings. The key issue here is the continuous nature of attention being given to these influences, suggesting a gradual shift away from faith due to ongoing engagement with falsehood.

The passage fits within Paul's broader concern about preserving the integrity of Christian teaching in the face of growing heresies and false beliefs that threaten the church's spiritual health.


This throws much more light on an obscure, isolated verse-wouldn't you say @covenantee?

1Ti 4:1 But δὲ the Τὸ Spirit πνεῦμα expressly ῥητῶς states λέγει that ὅτι in ἐν later ὑστέροις times καιροῖς some τινες will depart from ἀποστήσονταί the τῆς faith, πίστεως, giving heed προσέχοντες to deceitful πλάνοις spirits πνεύμασιν and καὶ teachings διδασκαλίαις of demons, δαιμονίων,

J.

 

[covenantee]

Why the need to expose and humiliate @covenantee?

It's the truth that exposes and humiliates, bro. I merely report it.

There's no excuse for the deliberate suppression or misrepresentation of pertinent truth.

 

[Johann]

It's the truth that exposes and humiliates, bro. I merely report it.

There's no excuse for the deliberate suppression or misrepresentation of pertinent truth.

We all make mistakes brother and I don't for one minute believe there is a willful suppression of Alethia-hence the need for the body of Messiah.
Unless, of course, we have to fight the demon of pride ever lurking in us all.

One Body with Many Members
1Co 12:12 For just as the human body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, many as they are, constitute but one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit all of us, Jews or Greeks, slaves or freemen, have been baptized into one body, and were all imbued with one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body does not consist of one part but of many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot says, "Since I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," that does not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 If the ear says, "Since I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," that does not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:17 If all the body were an eye, how could we hear? If all the body were an ear, how could we smell?
1Co 12:18 But as it now is, God has placed the parts, every one of them, in the body just as He wanted them to be.
1Co 12:19 If they were all one part, how could it be a body?
1Co 12:20 But as it now is, there are many parts, but one body.
1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," or the hand to the feet, "I do not need you."
1Co 12:22 No, on the contrary, even those parts of the body that seem to be most delicate are indispensable,
1Co 12:23 and the parts of it we deem devoid of honor we dress with special honor, and our ill-shaped parts receive more careful attention,
1Co 12:24 while our well-shaped parts do not want for anything. Yes, God has perfectly adjusted the body, giving great honor to its apparently inferior parts,
1Co 12:25 so that there is no disharmony in the body, but all the parts have a common care for one another.
1Co 12:26 If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it. If one part receives an honor, all the parts can share its joy.
1Co 12:27 So you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has placed people in the church, first as apostles, second as prophets, third as teachers, then wonder-workers; then people with power to cure the sick, helpers, managers, ecstatic speakers.
1Co 12:29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all are wonder-workers, are they?
1Co 12:30 Not all are people with power to cure the sick, are they? Not all are ecstatic speakers, are they? Not all can explain ecstatic speaking, can they?
1Co 12:31 But you must earnestly continue to cultivate your higher spiritual gifts. And yet I will show you a way that is better by far:

You may be gifted in an area where I am not-yes?
Shalom.
J.

 

[covenantee]

We all make mistakes brother and I don't for one minute believe there is a willful suppression of Alethia-hence the need for the body of Messiah.

The suppression/misrepresentation, which persists to this day despite being clearly debunked, is far too obvious to be a mistake.

It's deliberate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn't say departure from truth, and in fact, we really need to focus on this text to determine it's specific and exact meaning, and then go on to harmonize with other texts.

I was referring to this verse in particular. The only other verse where the word "apostasia" is used.

Acts 21:21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

This is referring to departing from the truth of what Moses taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite,

I would just recommend you reading carefully my original post.
Nowhere in Greek literature does APOSTASIA mean rebellion. It can be used in that context, but the lexeme itself does not carry that meaning. That is why I suggested that you read 20 uses of APOSTASIA in Ancient Greek. It never means rebellion or falling away.
The Rapture does occur before the Day of the Lord (aka the tribulation).

Did you even read what I said? My point was that it can't be referring to the rapture because Paul said the apostasia has to occur first before the rapture. You are absolutely wrong to say that the rapture occurs before the day of the Lord. Paul defined the day of the Lord as being the day of His coming when we're gathered to him. You are taking 2 Thess 2:1-3 out of context.

I did ask for critique of my original post but I asked Pre-Tribbers to respond.

This is a public forum and I can share my opinion if I want. You are free to ignore it.

The arguments used by non Pre Tribbers have been answered years ago. Most are Replacement theologians, which I dont find interesting. Sorry for being so direct, but I am trying to make sure i haven't overlooked anything and Pre Tribbers will be able to spot that.

I wouldn't trust pretribbers about anything, but that's up to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's my point. Apostasy is not a one time event. The harpadzo is.

Much love!

You completely missed my point. Paul was NOT talking about things just being the same as always in later times as it relates to apostasy. He indicated that it would be increased in later times, just as Jesus did in Matthew 24:9-13. So, I see no reason to not see 2 Thess 2:3 the as referring to the same thing that had to occur first before Christ's second coming and our being gathered to Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you're the only one possessing the truth of God.

Where can we come to worship you?

We have a lot of those types on this forum who have beliefs all to themselves. It's hard to even fathom how arrogant those people must be to think God reveals truth only to them.

 

[marks]

I was referring to this verse in particular. The only other verse where the word "apostasia" is used.

Acts 21:21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

This is referring to departing from the truth of what Moses taught.

Right, OK, the only other noun form used in the NT.

"teaching departure from Moses"

Much love!

 

[marks]

He indicated that it would be increased in later times, .

AT what point would you know the sign is fulfilled? I don't see it.

Much love!

 

[KUWN]

Did you even read what I said? My point was that it can't be referring to the rapture because Paul said the apostasia has to occur first before the rapture. You are absolutely wrong to say that the rapture occurs before the day of the Lord. Paul defined the day of the Lord as being the day of His coming when we're gathered to him. You are taking 2 Thess 2:1-3 out of context.


This is a public forum and I can share my opinion if I want. You are free to ignore it.


I wouldn't trust pretribbers about anything, but that's up to you.

You said:

Did you even read what I said? My point was that it can't be referring to the rapture because Paul said the apostasia has to occur first before the rapture.

Can you show me where this is stated in Scripture? I will change my position as a pre-tribber if you can show me this. I suppose you will not answer this request.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said:

"In this verse it refers to Jews forsaking or falling away (departing from) the teachings of Moses. I believe it should be understood similarly in 2 Thess 2:3 as referring to a mass falling away or departure from the faith."

The problem as I see it is that departing from the faith is not mention in 2 Thes or 1 Thes. Also, Paul uses the verb APOSTAMAI to refer to the departing from the faith, not the noun, as here. And Paul finds it necessary to add to the word APOSTAMAI "from the faith" to indicate what kind of falling away he is referring to. See my post on APOSTAMAI out here.

I don't see that he would have felt that was necessary in this case since the rest of what he talked about would line up with the idea of many falling away from the faith. He talked in verses 8 and 9 about "that wicked"...whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders". It makes sense that with that kind of deception going on that there would be an increase in apostasy from the faith.

So in 2 Thes 2.3 Paul does not use a modifying phrase (such as "from the faith" or "from Moses") and does use the articular noun in stead of the verb. Without a modifying phrase to APOSTASIA, it has no meaning of rebellion, apostasy, or departure from the faith. I am going off memory here but the cognate verb of APOSTASIA is found 15 or so times in the NT, and 12 or so of those refer to a physical departure. This is why many non Pre Tribbers reject the use of the verb as supplying a meaning to APOSTASIA. This rejection of the verb is a semantical adnormality.

I don't find this argument to be convincing at all. What else can it be referring to except for a departure from the faith? Whatever it is had to happen first before the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him, so he couldn't have been talking about the departure of the church from earth. He wasn't saying that the rapture had to occur before the rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

AT what point would you know the sign is fulfilled? I don't see it.

Much love!

It's not a specific thing you can point to and determine that. It's something you need to discern by seeing what is going on in the world. But, I'm not sure why you're acting like such a time period wouldn't even happen. Do you think in 1 Timothy 4 that Paul was just saying people would still be falling away form the faith in later times just like they are now? What would be the point of saying that things will still be the same in later times as they were then? Jesus said there would be a time when many would turn away from the faith, wickedness would increase and the love of most would grow cold (Matthew 24:9-13). You don't deny that He was talking about a future time during which those thing would happen before His return, right? If so, then why couldn't Paul have taught the same thing in passages like 2 Thess 2:1-12 and1 Timothy 4:1-3?