If this election is ruled by emotion and feelings we will make a wrong choice a second time...emotion is the number one enemy of all logic,reason,order and stability and few if any good decisions are ever made under it's influence....i will go a step further and add rightousness to that list as well seeing as how wrong often feels right in this life.
Todd Akin
- Thread starter Brother James
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Mr. Akin is dead even with Ms. McCaskil in a left-leaning poll out today, so news of his death may be exagerated.
I find rape to be as abhorent as any person can. Males can be raped as well. I cannot imagine how awful such an experiece would be for a person. I don't see anything in Mr. Akin's remarks that say rape is good, rape is okay. However, I do find it difficult to support destroying an innocent life that came into being through a horrific act by another person. Should we be able to kill a five day old infant if the mother states that the infant was conceived through rape? Why or why not? Either an unborn baby has a right to its life or it does not. My own biological father was not a good person. He abandoned my mother before I was even born. He did awful things. Should I have been deprived of my life because of things he did? I believe that is the pro-life issue in front of us.
With regard to "legitimate rape" there are crimes classified as "rape" that are not forcible. When my daughter bought a house in a nearby neighborhood she was horrified to learn that the man across the street was on the state's sex offender website. I investigated and discovered that when he was 24 he had a sexual encounter with a girl who was 17. That was statutory rape, even though it was consentual. That is quite different than the usual picture we get of a rapist, isn't it? In Michigan, where I grew up, a girl could consent at age 16 and what he did would not have been a crime. That hardly compares to someone abducting a woman and then forcing himself on her against her will. So there are "rapes" that are less than others. Maybe he shouldn't have used the word "legitimate" but nevertheless there is a difference.
I find rape to be as abhorent as any person can. Males can be raped as well. I cannot imagine how awful such an experiece would be for a person. I don't see anything in Mr. Akin's remarks that say rape is good, rape is okay. However, I do find it difficult to support destroying an innocent life that came into being through a horrific act by another person. Should we be able to kill a five day old infant if the mother states that the infant was conceived through rape? Why or why not? Either an unborn baby has a right to its life or it does not. My own biological father was not a good person. He abandoned my mother before I was even born. He did awful things. Should I have been deprived of my life because of things he did? I believe that is the pro-life issue in front of us.
With regard to "legitimate rape" there are crimes classified as "rape" that are not forcible. When my daughter bought a house in a nearby neighborhood she was horrified to learn that the man across the street was on the state's sex offender website. I investigated and discovered that when he was 24 he had a sexual encounter with a girl who was 17. That was statutory rape, even though it was consentual. That is quite different than the usual picture we get of a rapist, isn't it? In Michigan, where I grew up, a girl could consent at age 16 and what he did would not have been a crime. That hardly compares to someone abducting a woman and then forcing himself on her against her will. So there are "rapes" that are less than others. Maybe he shouldn't have used the word "legitimate" but nevertheless there is a difference.
I understand the difference of rape defined by law, and violent/force-able rape.... But he wasn't making that distinction.... In fact, he was straight up saying a woman's body would shut down a pregnancy in the case of forced rape... Which is very untrue.
As for abortion... This is a line that so many Christians see as black-and-white... But to so many people it isn't a black-and-white issue...
The Holy spirit hasn't really sent me a conviction to stand up and fight for one side or the other of this issue, but if I was to give my opinion, I would say that I am pro-life. I agree that a child conceived has the right to live...
Yet, in the Spirit of Love, I have to say that I cannot make the decision for women who have been put in this position as to have to make a decision in regards to which consequences they must deal with in regards to the violence they have suffered.
As for abortion... This is a line that so many Christians see as black-and-white... But to so many people it isn't a black-and-white issue...
The Holy spirit hasn't really sent me a conviction to stand up and fight for one side or the other of this issue, but if I was to give my opinion, I would say that I am pro-life. I agree that a child conceived has the right to live...
Yet, in the Spirit of Love, I have to say that I cannot make the decision for women who have been put in this position as to have to make a decision in regards to which consequences they must deal with in regards to the violence they have suffered.
I believe that the emotional trauma that comes from reflection on having killed one of God's own may prove to be equally traumatic in the years that come after an abortion. There are many wrongs that can be committed in the emotional passion of pain. There are some who advocate the killing of the innocent to avenge injustice. Terrorists will blow up school buses and rationalize that they are doing God's will. Killing an innocent baby who has done nothing wrong does not hurt the rapist. The rapist does not care. The question is, does God care? I'm not a staunch "impose my will" kind of person, but in discussing what is right and wrong I cannot advocate a thing that I see as wrong, which is the killing of the unborn. A loving Christian community to support the victim, help with an adoption if desired, provide for needs, etc. is a better response than violence against an unborn baby.
That is all well and good, you have the right to believe what you want...but when you haven't been put in the position to know what is the most traumatic, then you haven't been put in the position to tell these women what is best for them to do.
The woman I speak of, who carried her baby to term, feels she did right, but she feels conflicted because she can not give the child a home as she feels is the Christian model... Her daughter is old enough to know the circumstances of her birth... She knows her mother never even knew who her father was... and even though my friend does all she can to reassure her daughter that things are as they should be, she still has doubts...
She takes part in a support group for victims, and there are women in her group that have terminated the pregnancies that seem less tormented than she is... They were able to move on with their lives... She was not able to continue in the direction she felt she needed to go...
I can't speak on behalf of the women who have moved on without keeping a child... I don't know if they are more tormented than my friend is, but I never experienced the horror they did... I cannot say...
...And since I am unable to know these women's hearts, I cannot in good conscious draw the black and white line, because if I ever do, then I would be drawing a line of judgment... It is not the battle the Holy Spirit has chosen for me, because I do not have the necessary skills to be effective in it. I will allow the Holy Spirit to place conviction where it is required.
The woman I speak of, who carried her baby to term, feels she did right, but she feels conflicted because she can not give the child a home as she feels is the Christian model... Her daughter is old enough to know the circumstances of her birth... She knows her mother never even knew who her father was... and even though my friend does all she can to reassure her daughter that things are as they should be, she still has doubts...
She takes part in a support group for victims, and there are women in her group that have terminated the pregnancies that seem less tormented than she is... They were able to move on with their lives... She was not able to continue in the direction she felt she needed to go...
I can't speak on behalf of the women who have moved on without keeping a child... I don't know if they are more tormented than my friend is, but I never experienced the horror they did... I cannot say...
...And since I am unable to know these women's hearts, I cannot in good conscious draw the black and white line, because if I ever do, then I would be drawing a line of judgment... It is not the battle the Holy Spirit has chosen for me, because I do not have the necessary skills to be effective in it. I will allow the Holy Spirit to place conviction where it is required.
Perhaps you missed where I said: "I'm not a staunch "impose my will" kind of person, but in discussing what is right and wrong I cannot advocate a thing that I see as wrong, which is the killing of the unborn"
Just because I have not been raped does not mean that I have no right to an opinion on the fate of innocent unborn babies. I have told no one what is best for them, but I have shared what I believe is right and what I believe is wrong.
I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion... and I am not saying you are wrong in your opinions... and I am not saying you should not share them... I respect that you have drawn your line without imposition...
But when I was honest about why I cannot draw a solid conclusion, we get a one-word post in here that is apparently stunned that I don't have the general Christian fire for the topic...
edit
the topic of abortion)
I do not only address you, Brother James, when I post. You are not an "Impose my Will" sort... I appreciate and respect that... and I know there are other the other people that come into this forum and view what is written as well... I address those that do not understand why I say what I say.
People are quick to pass judgment... and as I am a person, I am included... when they have draw firm opinions... and sometimes those opinions, and that judgment keeps people from seeing the whole picture. They ignore half the people who are included in an issue... and in an issue such as rape victims and the access to abortion, I cannot see how justice is to be done... I don't want to see women who have children that become merely consequences in the eyes of their mothers, but I do not want to see innocent babies killed because they are not conceived in love.
The fact that politicians can only advocate for one side or another is a big problem with our politics today... And it is a very glaring problem with Todd Akin.... He brings HIS staunch views to the platform, and He would impose them on all of the citizens in the country... and since this thread is about him... Much of what I say refers directly to the impression I have of him as well.
But when I was honest about why I cannot draw a solid conclusion, we get a one-word post in here that is apparently stunned that I don't have the general Christian fire for the topic...
edit
the topic of abortion)I do not only address you, Brother James, when I post. You are not an "Impose my Will" sort... I appreciate and respect that... and I know there are other the other people that come into this forum and view what is written as well... I address those that do not understand why I say what I say.
People are quick to pass judgment... and as I am a person, I am included... when they have draw firm opinions... and sometimes those opinions, and that judgment keeps people from seeing the whole picture. They ignore half the people who are included in an issue... and in an issue such as rape victims and the access to abortion, I cannot see how justice is to be done... I don't want to see women who have children that become merely consequences in the eyes of their mothers, but I do not want to see innocent babies killed because they are not conceived in love.
The fact that politicians can only advocate for one side or another is a big problem with our politics today... And it is a very glaring problem with Todd Akin.... He brings HIS staunch views to the platform, and He would impose them on all of the citizens in the country... and since this thread is about him... Much of what I say refers directly to the impression I have of him as well.
I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion... and I am not saying you are wrong in your opinions... and I am not saying you should not share them... I respect that you have drawn your line without imposition...
But when I was honest about why I cannot draw a solid conclusion, we get a one-word post in here that is apparently stunned that I don't have the general Christian fire for the topic...
edit
I do not only address you, Brother James, when I post. You are not an "Impose my Will" sort... I appreciate and respect that... and I know there are other the other people that come into this forum and view what is written as well... I address those that do not understand why I say what I say.
People are quick to pass judgment... and as I am a person, I am included... when they have draw firm opinions... and sometimes those opinions, and that judgment keeps people from seeing the whole picture. They ignore half the people who are included in an issue... and in an issue such as rape victims and the access to abortion, I cannot see how justice is to be done... I don't want to see women who have children that become merely consequences in the eyes of their mothers, but I do not want to see innocent babies killed because they are not conceived in love.
The fact that politicians can only advocate for one side or another is a big problem with our politics today... And it is a very glaring problem with Todd Akin.... He brings HIS staunch views to the platform, and He would impose them on all of the citizens in the country... and since this thread is about him... Much of what I say refers directly to the impression I have of him as well.
In one of your post you state that you always vote,one either votes for or against something...either way a path is chosen and somebody's will is imposed...the more intelletcually or character and morally challenged would have us beleive in the myth of neutrality and law without morality....sort of like water without wet.......something i'm sure you as a christian don't buy into...so tell me what do you vote for that imposes your will or what you see as right on others,and what do you vote against which allows either your will or somebody else's will to remain in force or prevents the will of another from being imposed ? since i know from your post that the lives of unborn children are second to the emotions and feelings of women....what is your priority list for society and how do you express it through your vote ?.....and just for the record,i am not stunned by anything people do today....it was all written about and predicted in the Bible centuries ago.
I vote, because I know it is my responsibility to be active... I do not vote on issues that I am not convicted by the Spirit to have a firm stance on. I vote for candidates who represent issues that I do have a conviction for. I am giving my support, but not imposing my will, as per the electoral process... I am voicing my concerns...
By voting, I am sharing my opinions in an outlet that was provided to me to do so... I am sending a message to my government as to what I expect of them. It is the job of the elected official to create legislation that benefits the country as a whole...
But my problem with politicians now is not that they have personal beliefs and interests, but that most of them try to impose their personal beliefs and interests upon the United States citizens. The Christian and non-Christian alike.
And part of the problem I think that churches and some Christians have is that instead of letting the conviction of the Holy Spirit do Its work, they would impose morals as they define them on the nation, and thus send it into further rebellion.
You are mistaken that I value emotions higher than life, but you do not know my heart. You have not been in the positions that I have been called to to witness in... It is not as black-and-white as you make it out to be... and because of the people that have been placed in my path, it is my duty to remain in an attitude of love. Please do not presume to place my priorities for me.
I didn't ask you what your definition of voting was,i ask you what you vote for and against....i do not seek to know your heart and i have not presumed your priorities,i ask what they were...the presence of a question is sufficient to deny presumption...those who presume don't ask questions because they think they already know...you have laready indicated your passive position in regard to abortion and offered emotional pain as the reason and the"spirit of love" as the excuse...you also have not been in my shoes...however i no longer offer context as an amendment to sin as is so common today....if you can find scripture that does so please let me know.
Strat said:
You are trying to force me to seek the defensive in a topic of Todd Akin, and demand my stance a particular issue, abortion... Then you ask what else I believe... Why? So you can let me know how misguided I am about them too?
I have posted why I do not support him, and try and give my reasons for not supporting him, and why I feel he does not entirely deserve the excuses offered for him that I have seen here and elsewhere...
The Holy Spirit and Its calling of Love upon my life is not an excuse. I do not need excuses... We all have reasons... But why should I further share my experience and thoughts with you when you come across to me as judgmental.
I told you what I vote for and against... I vote for candidates that offer priority to issues that I believe are important... Not only abortion...
Should I list them all? Iif I did, I would surely forget some important ones...
I guess I will stick with the ones that first come to mind... I seek politicians who want to bring the US back under control. I want to see people in office that will help the nations sick and elderly, but eliminate the ability of those who would be idle from being parasites of the system... I want to see people who will bring jobs back to the States and put economic gambling to at least a slow down... I vote for candidates who do not push fear in order to scare people into letting their Constitutions rights go... I want people in office who have a heart for the nation, but the compassion to realize that the nation is made of individuals... I vote for candidates that seek to eliminate racism by bringing up the minorities not by depressing the majority... I vote for those who demonstrate that they are for the American dream, not their own...
A tall order? Why yes it is... But I look for candidates that have as many of those qualities as can be had...
Ok,fair enough...do you believe abortion is the taking of an innocent life ? if so do you define that as murder ? let me say that i firmly believe there is forgiveness for anyone who has had,taken part in or influenced an abortion...the bible clearly says that there is only one unforgivable sin and abortion is not it.I do not support any abuse or condemnation of such people in any way....however if you define abortion as the taking of an innocent life and if you define that as murder how can you justify not at least having a part in opposing it...abortion is here to stay and America will never let it go,we will cease to exist as a nation before that ever happens so why not be a voice as the bible says for those being led to slaughter ?
I will answer your question, but I will start another thread as my opinions on this issue would completely derail this topic ... But as a quick answer, I do believe abortion is the taking of innocent life... I will state why I actively remain passive in the new thread, and so forth.
And here would be the promised thread...
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16588-black-and-white-and-abortion/
I can unequivocally say that forcible rape by one person against another person is 100% wrong 100% of the time. Anyone who commits such an act of violation against another person needs punishment to a most devere degree from society. That is not difficult for me to say. One reason it would not be difficult is because there is virtual universal agreement with my position on this. I have never heard anyone try to defend rape. So it's easy for me to say it's wrong 100% of the time. Now, even if I lived in a society where rape was considered acceptable (recall that some societies said it was okay as long as you married your victime) I would hope that I could have the fortitude and courage to still say it is wrong. Just like I would hope that if I had lived in the southern U.S. in the 1840's I could have seen without question that slavery was evil, even if the people around me defended it. That would certainly be the moral high ground, to defend truth and what is right even in the face of a majority who disagree.
I understand that it is difficult in our society to take a firm absolute stand that every innocent baby has a right to its own life, which God gave to it, and which no person has the right to take even if it is the person who nurtures the development of that baby inside her own body for nine months. Our laws have to be a product of the input of all of society. But even when the law allows an action, it does not make it right. The law allows me to commit adultery without punishment. I should not commit adultery.
Akin was stupid to try to argue that rape would not result in pregnancy, although there is in fact scientific evidence that certain biological processes conducive to pregnancy are interfered with when a woman is traumatized. There is a grain of truth in what he so awkwardly tried to say, but the reality is that there is a very loud set of voices in society who demand abortion rights under any and all circumstances up to the point of birth for all women. It is logically consistent to oppose someone killing an innocent child in all cases, but sometimes we bargain with what is in essence evil because we want to seem reasonable. Akin chose not to do that, and he is paying a political price for it. Yet the foundation on which he stands is one that I support. ThaT IS why I brought this discussion up, to explore that whole dynamic in the election process. Over 60% of people now oppose most abortions, by the way. If Roe v. Wade was overturned you would find that some states would guarantee rights to abortions while some would ban them. Isn't that how the country was set up to work in the first place?
I understand that it is difficult in our society to take a firm absolute stand that every innocent baby has a right to its own life, which God gave to it, and which no person has the right to take even if it is the person who nurtures the development of that baby inside her own body for nine months. Our laws have to be a product of the input of all of society. But even when the law allows an action, it does not make it right. The law allows me to commit adultery without punishment. I should not commit adultery.
Akin was stupid to try to argue that rape would not result in pregnancy, although there is in fact scientific evidence that certain biological processes conducive to pregnancy are interfered with when a woman is traumatized. There is a grain of truth in what he so awkwardly tried to say, but the reality is that there is a very loud set of voices in society who demand abortion rights under any and all circumstances up to the point of birth for all women. It is logically consistent to oppose someone killing an innocent child in all cases, but sometimes we bargain with what is in essence evil because we want to seem reasonable. Akin chose not to do that, and he is paying a political price for it. Yet the foundation on which he stands is one that I support. ThaT IS why I brought this discussion up, to explore that whole dynamic in the election process. Over 60% of people now oppose most abortions, by the way. If Roe v. Wade was overturned you would find that some states would guarantee rights to abortions while some would ban them. Isn't that how the country was set up to work in the first place?
revturmoil
New Member
Agreed. Hey! How well did compassionate conservatism work out for you? It didn't work out too well for most American's. After all we went to war looking for a smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud! What a lie and what a joke!
When 1/7 of Americans are on food stamps and half get some kind of benefits from the govenrment what is that called? Compassionate liberalism? Is it compassionate to heap $51,000 in debt on the heads of every newly born baby? We just passed $16 trillion in debt today. That's not including the unfunded social security scam by the way. How's that going to work out? Every dime of that has to be repaid, or else the country goes bankrupt.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
1/7 Americans do not have enough resources to feed themselves and their families. I support all efforts to ensure that Americans get enough healthy food to eat.
Who says they don't have enough resources to feed themselves? They have cell phones with texting plans, live in air conditioning, and drive cars. They have cable TV bills. But they can't feed themselves? When you've eliminated all the other nonessential things and still can't feed yourself, then you deserve help. And they can buy pretty much any kind of junk food that the store offers, the most expensive processed foods rather than ingredients to cook with. No requirement for healthy foods, they can buy sugary sodapop, candy, and pies exclusively.
Nobody is advocating letting people go hungry, but you can't look at how the government has administered the food stamp program and not be made sick by it, unless of course you like making people dependent. And 1/7 of the population simply is not that poor. Maybe 1/20.