aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I do not see where Jesus commissioned us to go out and interview the poor to make sure they met an arbitrary standard for being poor before we offer them assistance.
Todd Akin
- Thread starter Brother James
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The "poor" of the bible are clearly described,the elderly,children and the sick...any one who through no fault of their own is not able to care for themselves,the consequences of sin are clearly described to include poverty among other things,care in emergency situations is one thing but a continual enabling and support for a sinful lifestyle,or in secular terms an irresponsable lifestyle,brings no blessings to either party or society in general....the evidence is all around us in broken homes,crime statistics,births out of wedlock.....the list is endless....billions upon billions have been spent to eliminate poverty and we have even more of it...but nobody can defend failure like a liberal....their opponents are successful for all the wrong reasons and they fail for all the right reasons.
WWJD well apparently his answer to
Women with children from different men she is not married to ? a bigger check for each child.....as long as the father stays out of the picture of course.
Drunkards and drug addicts ? beer money and clean needles.
The lazy ? checks from the government so they don't have to work.
Children in poverty ? he sends his.....servants to start ministries where they use the same foul lanquage the kids do to make them feel at home.
Yes,Jesus has many answers to poverty it seems.
Apparently Jesus hates people who work since life is getting more difficult for working people everyday..to get a decent job you have to
Pass a drug test,we can't have people doing drugs while they work to support people who are doing drugs
Criminal background check,again we can't have criminals working to support criminals,or anyone of questionable character working to support people of questinable character.
Credit check,we can't have people working who are late on their bills or not paying them at all while they support people who don't even know what a bill or due date is.
Whom the Gods would destroy they first make insane.
WWJD well apparently his answer to
Women with children from different men she is not married to ? a bigger check for each child.....as long as the father stays out of the picture of course.
Drunkards and drug addicts ? beer money and clean needles.
The lazy ? checks from the government so they don't have to work.
Children in poverty ? he sends his.....servants to start ministries where they use the same foul lanquage the kids do to make them feel at home.
Yes,Jesus has many answers to poverty it seems.
Apparently Jesus hates people who work since life is getting more difficult for working people everyday..to get a decent job you have to
Pass a drug test,we can't have people doing drugs while they work to support people who are doing drugs
Criminal background check,again we can't have criminals working to support criminals,or anyone of questionable character working to support people of questinable character.
Credit check,we can't have people working who are late on their bills or not paying them at all while they support people who don't even know what a bill or due date is.
Whom the Gods would destroy they first make insane.
Where the money will come from? It is borrowed. From China. It's like this. Let's say you don't have two nickels to rub together, but your neighbor (who is better off than 85% of the entire world's population) says he is struggling. Actually, he hasn't said he is struggling but you kind of know it so you've encourage him to ask you for help even though you nave no money. Now, you have no money to help him but you very much hate to see him struggling so what can you do? Yup, go get a loan from the bank so you can give him some money to go grocery shopping. Having no solid plan for how you will repay the loan you borrow the money anyway. Maybe your kids will have to repay the loan. Who knows where the money will come from? Maybe you'll even default on the loan one day, but the only thing that matters is that your "poor neighbor" (who you'll remember is better off than 85% of the people on earth) no have to struggle.
In what universe does this make sense?
Now, actually, I checked out something Paul Ryan said in his acceptance speech. I checked it out because I wasn't sure I believed it as he stated it. But here is the truth. If a woman 1) graduates from high school, 2) doesn't have babies until she is married to a husband, and 3) waits until she is 20 or older to start having babies, then there is virtually no way she is going to end up in poverty. If she does not do those things, there is a 77% chance that she will live in poverty.
We enable people to live in poverty. We make them poor. We keep them poor. How do we do that? Think about it, you'll get the answer if you think about it. Now, the next question is why is this being done? Think some more. Why is it good to keep people poor? And who is really waging this "war on women"?
No, I believe you should be very generous toward the poor. So should I. But that is not what you are advocating, although this is the typical liberal argument. The liberal talks about having compassion the way Jesus said we should. They lecture us on how we should give and give to the poor. But when it comes down to it, what they are talking about is being generous with other people's money. Now, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't tell us to steal from our neighbor to help the poor. He did not even tell us what kind of system of government to set up and he certainly didn't say we should demand that government to tax us and then help the poor. Jesus dealt with individual hearts and the Kingdom of God.
It is extremely off-putting when liberal people invoke the name of Christ to justify the immoral theft from some to transfer what they have to others, depriving people of the joy of being personally generous. I guess you can use Jesus' name to rationalize anything. I'd rather argue from principles of political philosophy, what is just and unjust, and leave Jesus out of the matter. He cares about my heart. He doesn't insist that I tell the government to be generous with my neighbors' money.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I never invoke the name of Christ. I have a drive to serve others because Jesus loves me and I love Him. I do not believe people own their money or even earn their money - I believe God gives them money to manage. I would rather have my tax dollars spent on the poor than on manufactured wars. I do not believe this is a liberal or conservative issue - people on both sides of the political spectrum can be Christian and have generous hearts for the poor.
It is not our money. As it is GOD's MONEY as He gives it to us. To use wisely and spend it. Right on about that. But about Akin, Akin needed to think before blurting this out. As he really needs to think before he speaks. But so do we!
I believe I have communicated poorly somehow. I too believe we should have generous hearts. What I disagree with is using the government to force others to be generous. There is no virtue in stealing from the rich to feed the poor as in the legend of Robin Hood. Robin Hood was still a thief, no matter what his motives are. And I still believe it is wrong to imply that Jesus wants us to use the government to accomplish what he told us to do personally. Every one of us should use every opportunity to be generous, because yes, God just loans us things for the little while we are here. We are here such short time, it is ludicrous to think we actually own things.
And I'm sorry if "invoke" was the wrong word, aspen2, but in post #61 you did involve the name of Jesus in this discussion. Yet the discussion was not how Jesus wants us to treat the poor, but what the proper role of govenment is. What God expects of us as individuals is entirely different. In fact, if the governement takes care of every problem it actually denies individuals of the joy of being generous. That's not good either.
And I'm sorry if "invoke" was the wrong word, aspen2, but in post #61 you did involve the name of Jesus in this discussion. Yet the discussion was not how Jesus wants us to treat the poor, but what the proper role of govenment is. What God expects of us as individuals is entirely different. In fact, if the governement takes care of every problem it actually denies individuals of the joy of being generous. That's not good either.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I think we have different perspectives on a complex issue. I agree to disagree.
Yet another reason why America is doomed,it has become politically incorrect to consdier the root cause of anything...with modern christianity leading the way with its fuzzy churchese and pew babble,for those who "love" the "poor" an absolute field day awaits you when the system collapses because of its willful ignorance and rejection of Gods law and ways and everybody is poor and nobody can help anybody either by force via taxes or voluntarily....you will most likely find yourself destitute and we will see how much benevolent father government cares about you then.
LOL... That was a fun catch up... I think this whole thread has demonstrated how we can find stupid no matter what party we are looking at...
I still think that people should measure our politicians and not political parties... and I still don't like Akin.
I still think that people should measure our politicians and not political parties... and I still don't like Akin.
I will measure the men who set the standard for me, by the way I am lead to set the standard for myself, and know that is all I am capable of...
I will allow that not everyone agrees with me, and realize that they are probably right as often as I am right...
I will continue to take measure of mine own actions, and the actions of those who request my support, until I can't do so anymore... When I do not have that ability, that is when I will call it finished, and not before...
Well, I don't like Akin or dislike him. I live in Florida and I don't know anything about him other than the one controversy. The reason I brought it up was because of the lopsided reaction of the Republican party bosses. Here in Florida the party bosses lobbied heavily for Charlie Crist for the U.S. senate. They said Marco Rubio was a nice guy and had a great future, but Charlie was the best man for the senate. They annointed him and usually that is good enough. Funny thing happened on the way to the senate, though, for poor Charlie. The tea party and Florida's voters prefered Rubio. Now the party bosses have egg on their face as Charlie Crist endorsed Obama and speaks at the DNC.
When people who claim to value life and have pledged to defend it throw a staunch pro-life Republican in the trash heap, I wonder what is really going on. The party bosses have other agendas. I'm pro-life, but I have enormous respect for some leaders who are not. Condaleezza Rice is one, for example. She is not pro-life, but she does not try to pretend that she is. I think there is a lot of pretending going on in the Republican party because they know that 60% of Americans and 80% of Republicans are pro-life. So even if they aren't they have to pretend, but let someone like Akin make a single mistake, and wham. Now, he might be a bozo for other reason. On this one issue, though, I think the party bosses are dead wrong.
Absolutely,America as one Russian journalist said a couple of years ago will go down singing"i did it my way"....we are full to the brim of "good" people voting,debating,soul searching,seeking......on and on ad infinitum in every kind of intellectual,spiritual and pseudo spiritual and philisophical activity one can imagine and we are steadily declining for the lack of even the basic lknowledge of why God lifts up nations and brings them down,we have educated ourselves into profound ignorance of everything that matters to God because he and what matters to him is all that matters.....preferring instead to gaze at our navel and find ourselves....but enjoy yourself anyway
At what point do we determine they DON'T need assistance?
http://www.nationalr...ox-ken-mcintyre
Data from the Department of Energy and other agencies show that the average poor family, as defined by Census officials:
● Lives in a home that is in good repair, not crowded, and equipped with air conditioning, clothes washer and dryer, and cable or satellite TV service.
● Prepares meals in a kitchen with a refrigerator, coffee maker and microwave as well as oven and stove.
● Enjoys two color TVs, a DVD player, VCR and — if children are there — an Xbox, PlayStation, or other video game system.
● Had enough money in the past year to meet essential needs, including adequate food and medical care.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
At what point do we determine they DON'T need assistance?
http://www.nationalr...ox-ken-mcintyre
Data from the Department of Energy and other agencies show that the average poor family, as defined by Census officials:
● Lives in a home that is in good repair, not crowded, and equipped with air conditioning, clothes washer and dryer, and cable or satellite TV service.
● Prepares meals in a kitchen with a refrigerator, coffee maker and microwave as well as oven and stove.
● Enjoys two color TVs, a DVD player, VCR and — if children are there — an Xbox, PlayStation, or other video game system.
● Had enough money in the past year to meet essential needs, including adequate food and medical care.
Hang on Foreigner,
I'll take those stats downtown and let my homeless clients read them - I am sure it will reassure them.
So you are measuring our nation by what Russian reporters are saying? Well, that's absolutely priceless seeing as they are right in the center of it all...
And it seems to me that there are allot of Christians who would rather love their own interpretation of Scriptures (aka The pride of their own personal spiritual knowledge) above loving their fellow man... So many Christians are so ready to grab on to the issues that the media flashes in front of them that the would prefer to gaze at that instead of looking past the issues to find the root...
I don't see where the hard-right are actually converting anyone... The are subjected to the same vices of the hard left... Both sides would have everyone believe that their way is the way...
But Jesus says He is the WAY... and so I will do all that is in my power to follow the direction that the Spirit would take me....
Aspen2, I think the bigger question for you to ask yourself is, are you really helping these people?
I don't know the details of what you do (nor do I want to), but I do know many try to help, want to help, but their giving is not helping the taker, just enabling them, helping them stay where they are.
Some I see do something good, to make themselves feel good, sometimes doing the best thing is much harder work. Sometimes it is easier to do the easy thing? You needn't answer me, only yourself.
No, i am taking into consideration an objective veiwpoint and what i see all around me "christians" are of little influence or effect in this country being the same as the rest of society their interpretations of scripture realy don't matter....the root of the problems is sin.I don't realy care what anyone's vices are as long as they pay for them with their own money and deal with the consequences when they come...everybody has choices to make and they and they alone are responsable for them....God placed consequences in life to point the way that we should go...we have sought to eliminate consequences resulting in the effects of people's bad choices being multiplied far beyond what they normally would be.
Of course mentaly ill, substance addicted, and people who are down and out need my help. I give it to them cheerfully. That is not the issue.
Let me tell you what I know personally about "poor". I was born in a 2 room shack that had no running water. My mother drew every drop of water by hand from a hand-dug well. We used an outhouse. When we got hot in the summer we fanned ourselves. We grew our food. I took many baths in a galvanized steel wash tub as a child. We did not have a car or a telephone of any kind. We did not go to movies. We did not have a television set, much less cable TV. We also were not on welfare.
People who can pay cable TV bills, cell phone bills, and the electric bills that run their air conditioning, do not need my help to get enough to eat. That's a good 40 of the 48 million on food stamps. I have bought meals for homeless people who asked me for spare change. Walk into the restaurant and pay for their meal in advance. It's a good thing to feed a hungry person. The government is completely out of control in recruiting people to its programs. It progresses their agenda to make people dependent on the government teet. There is a sinister undercurrent to the whole thing that should scare the daylights out of people, but they are led along dumb and silent to the slaughter.
Let me tell you what I know personally about "poor". I was born in a 2 room shack that had no running water. My mother drew every drop of water by hand from a hand-dug well. We used an outhouse. When we got hot in the summer we fanned ourselves. We grew our food. I took many baths in a galvanized steel wash tub as a child. We did not have a car or a telephone of any kind. We did not go to movies. We did not have a television set, much less cable TV. We also were not on welfare.
People who can pay cable TV bills, cell phone bills, and the electric bills that run their air conditioning, do not need my help to get enough to eat. That's a good 40 of the 48 million on food stamps. I have bought meals for homeless people who asked me for spare change. Walk into the restaurant and pay for their meal in advance. It's a good thing to feed a hungry person. The government is completely out of control in recruiting people to its programs. It progresses their agenda to make people dependent on the government teet. There is a sinister undercurrent to the whole thing that should scare the daylights out of people, but they are led along dumb and silent to the slaughter.
-- Nice try.
Please note that those gov't statistics simply show that there are a HUGE number of people that you and others wish wish to claim are "poor and needy" who simply do not fall into the category of the actual homeless and destitute. Those gov't statistics do NOT claim that the homeless and destitute do not exist.
People like you who are unwilling to acknowledge that a family with a home/apt, a car, AC, TV, cable, cell phone, etc. should perhaps not be listed as 'poor and destitute' are part of the problem, not the solution.
Of course it is easy to give generously to whomever you wish without confirming they have that great a need or that they are doing anything at all to lift themselves out of their own situation, as long as you get to be generous with other people's money.
If gov't was actually more proactive in investigating the BILLIONS of dollars in fraud every year, ensuring that the finances went to those who actually had that great a need , and that those receiving checks who can actually work but don't must be willing to perform some tasks that better their apt., block, or community, there would be fewer people getting gov't money, and more available funding to spend on housing, feeding and addressing the mental issues of many of our nations homeless.
I work with the homeless, too, smart guy.
Many are offered apt/dorm living quarters at no cost, but they are required not to bring in drugs, alcohol, etc., and some must submit to random drug screenings.
Even with having no responsibilities such as having to clean common areas or preparing their own free food, many reject those requirements and choose the streets.
Another reason they reject housing assistance is because many are asked to either go through drug or alcohol treatment or counseling for mental illness (which a huge percentage of the homeless have to deal with).
So all we can do is feed them, round them up and bus them into shelters when the temps drop, offer them a warm cot at night, and let them know we are there for them.
That and notify the police as to where they can pick up the bodies of those that die when we find them in drainage ditches, under overpasses, or in back streets/alleys. (We go out looking for them if they miss a day of coming into the shelters or if someone comes in telling us that person "wouldn't wake up" to come in.)
.