Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil

[friend of]

Firstly, I would like to extend a cordial "Thank You" to @GodsGrace and @Jane_Doe22 for bearing the torch here.

Does God's foreknowledge CAUSE future things to happen?
Is God's foreknowledge a causation?

I would argue no.

God's creative ability did not stop there. He didn't say to them "Off you go and do your own thing and I will give you a helping hand occasionally."

God did not desire for Cain to kill Able. I think we can all agree this act of murder displeased God.

I happen to believe that mankind was not meant to die and that creation was not meant to decay.

Yet here we are.

OTOH, If it's ME that CHOOSES God, I can be sure I'm saved for as long as I DO NOT abandon God and and I KNOW if I do....simple concept.

Hebrews 4:6-7
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter [His rest], and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:6
...but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.

If God is so sovereign, as calvinists state, surely He could do this simple task!
If He could create the entire universe and all the physical laws it holds...why could He not give us free will and ALSO cause HIS end game? There is no reason!

I guess they don't really believe in His Sovereign Decree if they think He can't bring about His plan in spite of us.

"what happens to those that have never heard of Jesus?" is one that is not point-blank answered in the Bible,

I think Hebrews 10:15-17 might work here.

He would only be making them all the more responsible for refusing to seek Him.

It's an act of mercy by God to withhold revelation of His will for man when He knows they will not obey.

@Preacher4Truth @Anthony D'Arienzo @Mjh29 @farouk @Laish @Kermos

 

[GodsGrace]

Firstly, I would like to extend a cordial "Thank You" to @GodsGrace and @Jane_Doe22 for bearing the torch here.

I would argue no.

God did not desire for Cain to kill Able. I think we can all agree this act of murder displeased God.

Yet here we are.

Hebrews 4:6-7
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter [His rest], and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:6
...but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.

I guess they don't really believe in His Sovereign Decree if they think He can't bring about His plan in spite of us.

I think Hebrews 10:15-17 might work here.

It's an act of mercy by God to withhold revelation of His will for man when He knows they will not obey.

@Preacher4Truth @Anthony D'Arienzo @Mjh29 @farouk @Laish @Kermos

Needless to say, I agree with all you've said
and find it very difficult to understand how anyone
could believe something different since what you've posted
is clear in scripture.

 

[friend of]

Needless to say, I agree with all you've said
and find it very difficult to understand how anyone
could believe something different since what you've posted
is clear in scripture

And let's be clear about something, we are using scripture.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

friend of,

.[ Non-Calvinists, like myself, realize the problem this presents for the biblical concept of free will.]
There is no biblical concept of free will. That is a carnal philosophical term.There are no verses speaking of mans will being free.
men make choices, but that has nothing to do with the will being "free'.

[We realize that God doesn't have to be forcing everything to happen in a certain way in order for His ultimate will to be fulfilled, as He is capable of overcoming any obstacles our willfulness may invent against Him.]
God is in complete control at all times. He does not need to as you say..."be capable"
[If the will of a king is represented as a stream of water in that verse, then God's redirection of that stream is surely representing decisions of a macro category. And yes, if God so desired, He surely could micromanage every decision made by a king from cradle to grave. Maybe He has. But is this really the way He operates according to scripture?]
maybe you could attempt a scriptural position.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

When discussing biblical free will, what we're discussing is NOT philosophical freee will but libertarian free will.

Man does have libertarian free will.
Which is the ability to make a moral choice based on the fact that he could have made a different choice from the one made.

Sorry, that is not biblical at all. It is just semantics trying to say the same error in a different form.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

GodsGrace,
[Also, calvinist theology removes from man the responsibility of sin.]
The biblical teaching of Calvinism says man is fully responsible for sin.

[Since God predestinates everything....
God is responsible for sin.]

Where does the bible say God "predestines" everything?

[Then how can a JUST GOD make US responsible for something HE predestined?]

This only exists in your mind. you have invented this idea.

[Yes. Calvinism makes no sense at all.]

your misunderstanding is what makes no sense.

[What a strange thing to say regarding a God that causes us to sin.]

your wicked suggestion that God causes man to sin demonstrates you do not know the biblical God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Oh. You're here to change person's mind?
I'd say that those who disagree with you are correct in their theology and perhaps YOU should study some more so that you could come to know and love the one true God.

John 12:32 JESUS said...because He wants ALL to be saved:
. 32And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

And please don't tell me I'm a universalist.
God has conditions....when we adhere to HIS conditions, we can know we are saved because it's our conscious decision to be saved.

You, otoh, cannot be sure you're saved until you persevere till the end.

Romans 10:9-13 This is the HOW we are saved:
9If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved.
11As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”
12Jew and Gentilef are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him.
13For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”

Please notice the progression for salvation.
EVERYTHING in the above verses speaks to what WE ARE TO DO
to be saved.

EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.
FOR THERE IS NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD.
Romans 2:11

You describe as gospel of works which is no gospel at all.

 

[Enoch111]

You describe as gospel of works which is no gospel at all.

How in the world can this be a gospel of works?

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed... For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:11,13).

You are accusing the Holy Spirit of promoting a gospel of works. That is pretty blasphemous.

The entire 10th chapter of Romans is very, very clear. But since you do not even know the difference between a gospel of works and the Gospel of grace, you make such wild accusations. And that is because you yourself promote a false gospel. And to compound the error Laish has put a *like* against your post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, that is not biblical at all. It is just semantics trying to say the same error in a different form.

Really?
Are you a calvinist?
Could you PLEASE explain YOUR version of free will since calvinists DO believe in free will.

And, there IS difference between philosophical free will and biblical free will.

Biblical free will just means the ability to make a moral choice.

Would you care to explain
Philemon 1:14 to us?

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,
[Also, calvinist theology removes from man the responsibility of sin.]
The biblical teaching of Calvinism says man is fully responsible for sin.

Are you well-versed in the Calvinist beliefs? It does not seem so.
How is man responsible for sin IF GOD MADE HIM TO SIN?
If God predestined man to sin...HOW IS MAN RESPONSIBLE?

Instead of one sentence answers, do you mind explaining yourself?

[Since God predestinates everything....
God is responsible for sin.]

Where does the bible say God "predestines" everything?

Ummm. YOU are the one saying God predestines everything.
NOT ME.

[Then how can a JUST GOD make US responsible for something HE predestined?]

This only exists in your mind. you have invented this idea.

If it only exists in my mind,,,then please show me where I went wrong...since I'm representing the institutes of Calvin and YOUR theology is totally foreign to me.

[Yes. Calvinism makes no sense at all.]

your misunderstanding is what makes no sense.

pLEASE let it makes sense to all of us.

[What a strange thing to say regarding a God that causes us to sin.]

your wicked suggestion that God causes man to sin demonstrates you do not know the biblical God.

Oh. That's sweet.
Listen ... If God predestinated everthing, which is what YOU believe...
then He also predestinated SIN.

This is a big problem in your theology, which is wrong BTW.
If you care to explain why I misunderstood, you're free to do so.
IF YOU CAN.

Also the way you reply makes it difficult to reply to you.
Please use the reply feature on the bottom right hand side of the page
or learn how to use the quote feature.

I'd be happy to show you...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How in the world can this be a gospel of works?

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed... For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:11,13).

You are accusing the Holy Spirit of promoting a gospel of works. That is pretty blasphemous.

The entire 10th chapter of Romans is very, very clear. But since you do not even know the difference between a gospel of works and the Gospel of grace, you make such wild accusations. And that is because you yourself promote a false gospel. And to compound the error Laish has put a *like* against your post.

My clueless friend,
I did not suggest or speak against the biblical teaching of salvation.
The post spoke of a gospel that has conditional salvation.
You do not seem to grasp the difference.
We are to work out our salvation,not work for it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

GodsGrace,

[Do you know about Limited Atonement?
The atonement, according to calvinism, is LIMITED to only THE ELECT.]

According to scripture and believed by Calvinists;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

[Of course, we must understand who the elect are.]

We do not have to. We Just proceed to present the truth to all men. God knows who the elect are, and will seek them out.

[According to calvinism...it's those special persons that God chose among all of humanity to be saved from hell.]

According to scripture it is the elect children the Father gave to the Son.
Hebrews 2:9-16
[The rest of humanity is going straight to hell through no fault of their own.]
The rest of humanity go to hell justly for their sins.
Men are fully responsible for each and every sin.

[However, calvinists DO believe that God is loving and just.]

yes and so do the Calvinists already in heaven;
Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"GodsGrace,
[Are you well-versed in the Calvinist beliefs? It does not seem so.]

That remains to be seen. Let's see what you have got.

[How is man responsible for sin IF GOD MADE HIM TO SIN?]

No biblical Calvinist believes God made men sin.

This statement alone demonstrates that you do not understand the biblical teaching of God's grace known as Calvinism. Why do you make foolish statements blaming God from mans sin.

[If God predestined man to sin...HOW IS MAN RESPONSIBLE?]
God does no such thing.You are discussing things that you have not tried to understand.
[Ummm. YOU are the one saying God predestines everything.
NOT ME.]

You are confusing terms. When you conflate, predestined, ordained, Foreknown, decreed you confuse yourself as your posts demonstrate. Take some time to study the issue learn the biblical usage of the terms.

[If it only exists in my mind,,,then please show me where I went wrong...since I'm representing the institutes of Calvin and YOUR theology is totally foreign to me.]

I have already began to point you in a biblical direction. You must do some study

start here...
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

[Listen ... If God predestinated everthing, which is what YOU believe...
then He also predestinated SIN.]

I do not believe that unbiblical idea you offer.God is never the Author of sin. Stop making profane remarks.

[This is a big problem in your theology, which is wrong BTW.]

Because you do not understanding what you are talking about, it seems that way to you. When you come to truth you will re-read your posts and come to see it for yourself.

[If you care to explain why I misunderstood, you're free to do so.
IF YOU CAN.]
I have started to do that.