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Featured Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by friend of, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I'm a person who REALLY would like to think that a person's view point has been thought out, and that they are capable of answering questions about it. Hence, my very patiently asking @Laish to explain his viewpoint.

    Disclaimer: now obviously I will acknowledge that some people haven't thought their viewpoints out and are completely incapable of answering questions about it. These people are not uncommon, and quickly make it to my "ignore" list. But I really don't like to assume that any person is in that category and only will place them there after a mountain of evidence (which includes flaming) warrants it.
     
  2. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    You said it right here .
    He is THE way . Not some 30 million Hindu Gods at least according to the ancient Hindu texts over 300 million according to current popular belief.
    Those are just the gods . Their domains of influence range from justice to sexual violence . A belief system used to enforce the social caste system. One that keeps folks down like women or Christians .
    Yea the same spirit of God Fran not buying it . I will stick to scriptural context . Not touchy-feely stuff
    Blessings
    Bill
     
  3. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    It’s not a tangent . When they say that salvation is offered to all . Then we see that folks that have not heard so how can they have been offered . Your argument against Reformed theology says all are offered a choice . Not so when it comes to reality . No not at a tangent a legitimate avenue of debate .

    Blessings
    Bill
     
  4. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    Ok so you decide to not answer my question saying it is a tangent . Then you post the above .
    Your avenue of ridicule is quite revealing .
    Blessings
    Bill
     
  5. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Bill, I have I haven't ridiculed you at all. Rather I answered your question pages ago, and have been EXTREMELY patient waiting for you to fulfill your promise and actually address my question. And I'm still waiting.
     
  6. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    Actually no I love them all my friends are of many faiths and those with out faith . Yea I evangelize the whole group.

    I generally do poke fun at folks , even the ones I disagree with . I would probably not post anything like “ I also wonder what they do with the two Great Commandments "love God..AND love neighbour“


    I can only speak for myself and those in my congregation.
    Our congregation has 13 missionaries directly from our body of believers. They are in 6 countries.
    One in a country if he was discovered will have him jailed .
    My self I work with addicts drunks and those in jail .
    That’s what we do we share the Gospel and help call others to worship our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    Blessings
    Bill
     
  7. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Greetings, Bill. I may not be on this thread long, but I wanted to take a stab at answering you here, since you've been asking this question for several pages now.

    As @GodsGrace mentioned, Paul's teaching was that men are without excuse, since His Divine attributes can be clearly seen, being understood from what has been made. Does He reach out to certain ones specifically while not reaching out to others? Most certainly He does. This can be seen in Acts 16:7-9. The apostles were specifically sent to Macedonia while not being permitted to go to Bithynia. I believe this is based on His foreknowledge of whose hearts will be most receptive to Him. In the vision God gave to Paul, He depicted the Macedonians as saying "please come help us." This shows a desire for God; hearts that would be fully open to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Does this prove the Macedonians were predestined for salvation while the Bithynians were not? No, not IMO. It simply illustrates that God knew the Macedonians were most receptive. So what of those who never hear? Like the Cambodian man you referred to, there are occasionally people from even the most remote races and cultures that God knows will indeed be receptive, so He arranges for them to hear the gospel, even if it means transplanting them to another region where they can hear it. My personal opinion about those who never hear is that He knows they would not be receptive so He doesn't bother sending them a preacher or evangelist, or make the gospel available on TV or radio. Does it mean they had no choice in the matter? Not at all. As we have established, Paul preached that men were without excuse. Even to this day the hearts of men all over the world instinctively know that there must be something greater than themselves when they look up at the sun, the moon and the stars in the night sky. They know instinctively. But if they show no interest in seeking to know "the unknown god," or how they came into existence as living beings, He will never fully reveal Himself to them. He would only be making them all the more responsible for refusing to seek Him.

    I could say more, but I'll leave it at that.

    Blessings in Christ,
    Hidden
     
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    So here is where this issue began, and as Jane Doe correctly pointed out, it was off-topic.
    So to respond to your comment here is what we see:
    1. The Gospel was to go into all the world and be preached to every creature. During the Apostolic Age it went into the whole Roman Empire, and by the 5th century all of Europe was *Christian*.
    2. This is still the mandate for all Christian churches worldwide.
    3. Individual Christians are to also share the Gospel with those they come into contact.
    4. Ever since the invention of printing Bibles and Gospel tracts have been distributed throughout the world in all the known languages of the world.
    5. There is no one anywhere today who has not heard the words "Christ", "Christian", "Gospel", or "church".
    6. With the advent of the Internet, anyone with access to it has free access to the Bible in any language, and the Gospel in any language.

    So your question about those who have never heard of Jesus is a deflection from the issue of whether Five Point Calvinism is true or false. It is a tangent, a digression, a rabbit trail.
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    OK Laish....
    It's no use to continue with this.
    You can believe what you will re Romans 1:19-20
    And I can believe what I will re those verses.

    What have they to do with Calvinism?
    It plainly says God has revealed Himself to ALL mankind.
    He's upset with those that rejected Him....OK. I agree and I'm sure you do.

    So...where are we now?

    Does man have free will to accept or reject God?

    P.S. I DO agree with your last paragraph.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    What about BEFORE the Roman Empire?

    This is the point I'm trying to get to....
    Didn't God always reveal Himself to man?
     
  11. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    Thank you to all who have responded. I have not had time to browse this thread yet, but I will do so after church. Thank you for helping me to understand more of what you're saying. God bless
     
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  12. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    If that is what you want to read into it be my guest.
     
  13. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    Is that so?
     
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At the same time God has revealed Himself to mankind ever since creation, and in creation (Rom 1:19,20), and in many other ways.

    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
     
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  15. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    There is no need to be sarcastic.
     
  16. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    If the word says that he is not willing that any should perish, then potentially it is extended to all through the cross which is the only way anyone can obtain salvation, although you wonder sometimes by the way some Christians spend so much time trying to earn it.

    A Catholic man I used to work alongside was amazed that I didn't go to mass every day (I didn't go to mass anyday). How on earth was I going to earn enough brownie points to ensure salvation?
     
  17. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    Ok first one

    Romans 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    The wages of sin is death so it’s not for rejecting The free gift of salvation.

    Ok reading this one (2nd question) again are you asking if people are willing to go to hell or did God willingly create people to go to hell . I think it the latter and will answer that way.
    Look at Romans 9 the whole chapter

    Romans9:
    1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

    8But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 Thatb is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 Som then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    19 Your will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    25 As He says also in Hosea,

    “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’

    AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

    26”AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’

    THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

    27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28 For THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

    29 And just as Isaiah foretold,

    “UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

    WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

    30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 why ? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

    33 Just as it is written,

    “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,

    AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

    Here is other things to look at and consider too
    Psalms 64:4

    How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You

    To dwell in Your courts.

    We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,

    Your holy temple.


    Proverbs 14:4

    The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,

    Even the wicked for the day of evil.


    Mathew 24:31

    And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


    Luke 18:7

    now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?



    Romans 8:28-30

    And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.



    Romans 9:11

    for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,


    Romans 9 the entire chapter


    Romans 11:5-7

    In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;





    Ephesians 1:5

    He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…

    also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

    1st Thessalonians 1:4

    knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;


    2nd Thessalonians 2:13

    But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    Titus 1:1

    Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,


    1st Peter 1:2

    according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    Blessings
    Bill
     
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  18. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Under Calvinism, how is a person whom doesn't have free will culaple for anything?
    They do as they do because they lack the free will to be or do anything else-- because God designed the whole thing to be so. Every horrible human monster is thus because of God's design. It's like God created a literal serpent and then sent them to Hell for the crime of being a serpent.
     
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  19. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    Romans9: 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
    Blessings
    Bill
     
  20. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    to the next page we go!
     
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