Wormwood
Chaps
Hey justaname,
Thanks for your response. Yes, I have many Scriptures that support my claim. First, let me address your passages:
I want to quote the entire context of 1 Cor. 2 and the beginning of 1 Cor. 3. I will color code the pronouns so you can follow the flow of what Paul is saying. I will comment directly after to try to explain how I understand this text...
“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?” (1 Corinthians 2:1–3:4, ESV)
So, the first personal pronouns (I, we, our) are referring to the messengers of the Gospel (Paul, Apollos, Peter, etc.). These are the teachers who received revelation from the Holy Spirit and were sharing it with these people in Corinth.
The second person pronouns (you) are referring to the people in Corinth.
So, you see, this is a contrast. Paul is contrasting the heavenly message given by God's spokesmen to these Corinthians that have carnally turned it into a reason for division and factions. So, the contrast looks like this...
I came to you.
I preached Christ.
My message was not of worldly wisdom.
We impart spiritual wisdom.
God revealed this message to us through the Spirit.
We have the Spirit of God, not of this world.
We understand what has been given to us.
We impart what has been given to us with spiritual words taught by the Spirit.
Your faith should not rest in man's wisdom but God's
I cannot address you as spiritual.
I fed you milk
You aren't ready for milk
You are mere infants in Christ
There is still strife among you
You are of the flesh.
You are acting merely human.
So, whats the point? The point here is that this passage is not talking about believers vs non believers. This isn't about needing the Spirit to quicken them before they can understand the Gospel. No, it is saying that the messengers of God are men of the Spirit and they proclaim spiritual wisdom taught by the Spirit. They are not men seeking a following or their own glory. Yet, these Corinthians are infants in Christ (not non believers) who are unspiritual and worldly and therefore they have twisted the message to make it a reason for creating factions and fights (i.e. "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas"). That is a worldly way of thinking and is not the mentality of these spiritual men who have proclaimed the Gospel.
As you can see, this passage has nothing to do with Total Depravity. It has to do with the messengers of the Gospel being very unlike the teachers of the ancient world who were carnal and only interested in debates and creating a bigger following than the other guy. Paul says, "NO! We are all servants of the Spirit and we are not preaching worldly wisdom that seeks our own following or glory! Yet because you are thinking carnally, you are missing the basics of the message we are sharing!"
I hope that clarifies things. Now, let me share a few passages (not an exhaustive list by any means) that I believe teaches that all people can see the light when it shines on them and are held accountable for rejecting what they knew to be good.
“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” (Romans 1:32, ESV)
So the picture here is not one of human ignorance due to being dead in sin, but human obstinance...knowing God's decrees and what is good and bowing their backs against Him.
Thanks for your response. Yes, I have many Scriptures that support my claim. First, let me address your passages:
I want to quote the entire context of 1 Cor. 2 and the beginning of 1 Cor. 3. I will color code the pronouns so you can follow the flow of what Paul is saying. I will comment directly after to try to explain how I understand this text...
“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?” (1 Corinthians 2:1–3:4, ESV)
So, the first personal pronouns (I, we, our) are referring to the messengers of the Gospel (Paul, Apollos, Peter, etc.). These are the teachers who received revelation from the Holy Spirit and were sharing it with these people in Corinth.
The second person pronouns (you) are referring to the people in Corinth.
So, you see, this is a contrast. Paul is contrasting the heavenly message given by God's spokesmen to these Corinthians that have carnally turned it into a reason for division and factions. So, the contrast looks like this...
I came to you.
I preached Christ.
My message was not of worldly wisdom.
We impart spiritual wisdom.
God revealed this message to us through the Spirit.
We have the Spirit of God, not of this world.
We understand what has been given to us.
We impart what has been given to us with spiritual words taught by the Spirit.
Your faith should not rest in man's wisdom but God's
I cannot address you as spiritual.
I fed you milk
You aren't ready for milk
You are mere infants in Christ
There is still strife among you
You are of the flesh.
You are acting merely human.
So, whats the point? The point here is that this passage is not talking about believers vs non believers. This isn't about needing the Spirit to quicken them before they can understand the Gospel. No, it is saying that the messengers of God are men of the Spirit and they proclaim spiritual wisdom taught by the Spirit. They are not men seeking a following or their own glory. Yet, these Corinthians are infants in Christ (not non believers) who are unspiritual and worldly and therefore they have twisted the message to make it a reason for creating factions and fights (i.e. "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas"). That is a worldly way of thinking and is not the mentality of these spiritual men who have proclaimed the Gospel.
As you can see, this passage has nothing to do with Total Depravity. It has to do with the messengers of the Gospel being very unlike the teachers of the ancient world who were carnal and only interested in debates and creating a bigger following than the other guy. Paul says, "NO! We are all servants of the Spirit and we are not preaching worldly wisdom that seeks our own following or glory! Yet because you are thinking carnally, you are missing the basics of the message we are sharing!"
I hope that clarifies things. Now, let me share a few passages (not an exhaustive list by any means) that I believe teaches that all people can see the light when it shines on them and are held accountable for rejecting what they knew to be good.
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”” (John 3:18–21, ESV)
“If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.” (John 15:24, ESV)
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” (Romans 1:18, ESV)
“because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.” (Romans 1:25, ESV)
“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.” (Romans 7:22–23, ESV)
“And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”” (Acts 18:6, ESV)
Anyway, that's just a few verses off the top of my head. Yet, beyond that, I think the overall context of Scripture assumes that people are responsible when they hear and reject the Gospel. I think the point of both the OT Law and the NT Gospel presupposes that they are good and holy...and God's wrath falls, not because people are incapable of understanding or accepting God's truth and holy standard, but because in their wickedness they reject it and desire to follow their own evil desires rather than what they know to be true. In fact Paul writes concerning the wicked...“They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them” (Romans 2:15, ESV)
“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” (Romans 1:32, ESV)
So the picture here is not one of human ignorance due to being dead in sin, but human obstinance...knowing God's decrees and what is good and bowing their backs against Him.