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Featured Toward Death More Abundantly Instead... of Life?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by amadeus, Jun 30, 2020 at 1:26 PM.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

    In my own experience, and from what I have seen or read about in others, "churches" ... that is in the people forming church groups [denominations, assemblies, etc.] there really is a lot of this happening, taking hold of death instead of Life.

    After a person has a real special personal encounter with God that first time, which should be the beginning of a growing relationship with God in which the person begins to become like God, what often happens? Someone has already established, or in the case of a new group establishes, rules, and has defined, or now defines, them in writing... or otherwise set in concrete. Now they have an order of services perhaps even supported [apparently] by scriptures but very often put into place by men according to what is comfortable or convenient for men.

    These things are then done, including described essential doctrines, written creeds, etc., which so often effectively quench the lead of the Holy Spirit, which really was/is available to lead them. The newbies come in, unless they refuse to let go of what God has given them, and are taught and receive all of these streamlined ways to "death more abundantly" offered in so many places... including Christian Internet forums.

    So then after perhaps really having begun their gatherings together with the Lord in lively Life-filled meetings it diminishes and down the way some may wonder what has happened? [Some of course blindly follow along toward the ditch... very close now, which they are never able to see.]

    Apostle Paul admonished people with these simple words:

    "Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

    Very simple words, but by many never understood, or forgotten, or simply passed by... For too many who really had received Life, the Life, which Jesus brought, is it not a effectively a fall back and a turn back to death? And as our friend @bbyrd009 has mentioned often a pursuit of "death more abundantly"?

    "He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

    That is how the Baptist expressed it but doesn't it seem to anyone that someone has effectively reversed the words so that it is now too often the "old man" of people on the increase and the "new man" on the decrease? Moving away now from Life and plunging into death: On the way to salvation like Lot's wife but then turning back with a yearning look back toward death... and then dead, unmoving salt. A pillar in their church!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 1:49 PM
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  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    and yet it's a perfect setup imo, the heir is under servants until he inherits, and hard as it may be to get we need Apollos waters i guess. But imo a more useful reflection might be in the Esau cycle, which if we were to admit it makes no sense to us in the natural; Jacob supposedly inherits but it is he that has to leave? Esau supposedly lost his inheritance but it is he that got to stay? Ha!
     
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  3. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Probably most of the people you meet who are regulars in their churches fail to see what is wrong on their home front. What was happening even in Nazareth?

    "But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
    And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
    And he marvelled because of their unbelief." Mark 6:4-6

    Jacob's mother may have been similar then to the mother the sons of thunder [John and James] who presented their desire [and/or hers] to Jesus to be given a definite and secure place up higher... Yet as you say Jacob went away leaving the ground to brother Esau. Round and round they go... where they stop God alone knows.

    Jesus confirms cup and baptism, but no secured place to his right or to his left. They do not understand that the right side would be Life, but the left side would be death!

    "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matt 25:32-34

    "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matt 25:41
     
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  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I've heard this expression used frequently, death more abundantly, and primarly once someone has affirmed their hope of the resurrection, and of eternal life, as if someone who has this hope is deluded to the point of seeking 'Death More Abundantly'.

    This seems different than what you are saying here. Personally I find that use of that phrase, as I've seen so many times, to be at once both inappropriate, and to me, repugnant.

    I suppose that has a lot to do with my previous comment. For which I apologize, and it's my hope you'll find this comment more expressive.

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 4:35 PM
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't describe a Christian. Not in my opinion anyway.
     
  6. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I really have seen some sincerity in you at times even though sometimes we have disagreed. If that is what you have seen as the whole purpose of @bbyrd009 you haven't seen him at all. This is why, I believe, Matthew was led to pen these words:

    "Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
    Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Matt 7:1-5

    I have seen you in the past as a bit thin skinned and very defensive... ready to pounce when you thought someone had said something against you personally when they really did not intend to do so. I would have hoped you had with God's help managed to move past that kind of thing. You cannot do this alone... not can I or anyone else.

    Whether or not you were ever right in your previous suspicions of others, have you left any doubt here about yourself? No one but God understands everyone completely. You, I am quite certain, understand very little about the purpose of @bbyrd009 here, yet you attack him on my thread based on conclusions you have drawn elsewhere. Is that a good thing for you to do? It seems to me that if someone really is a devil or an unbeliever, God has it covered already without our help:

    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

    When you get to the point where you know the heart of @bbyrd009 as well as God knows it, then it might be appropriate for to call it as you see it. Until then, would it not be better to remain silent?

     
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  7. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    No it describes what people do who either have become weary in well doing or they have never really been involved in well doing and have simply been putting on a show.

    A "Christian" in the strictest meaning of the word, is 'one who is following or striving to follow Christ' . I would be very slow to call a person who is really following the ways of death a Christian, no matter what they themselves may claim. Someone who is following their human minister or the leadership of their church rather than Jesus directly has at the very least lost their way and needs a Guide. At the very worst, I hesitate to say as it wouldn't edify.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020 at 3:17 PM
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  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Ready to pounce.

    I don't think you see me.

    I guess it's only fair though, since I was so bold as to show my perceptions.

    My apologies!

    I suppose we should save certain opinions as "inside thoughts only".

    But if you haven't see the frequency at which @bbyrd009 counters people's hope of the resurrection as if they were pursuing some "death more abundantly", then I wonder whether you've seen this forum! Surely you must see that.

    Make it about me, as if I'm oh so sensitive! Because I dare to mention when people do things. Things that aren't approriate.

    I've editted my comment hopefully improving it.

    But I will stand by my hope of the resurrection until my dying day.

    The lot of you can call that what you want, I don't actually care in the way you think. Only as it relates to attacking the faith of others. No one needs that kind of ridicule for expressing their Christian hope.

    Anyway, I apologize if I've caused you distress!

    Much love!
     
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  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    You've seen "some sincerity"? Do you realize that this shows your minute by minute judgment of me? Sometimes sincere, and sometimes not? As if you knew and understood my motives?

    Now . . . this does not offend me. People do this all the time. But we can be better people for it if we can recognize what we are doing, and learn to get past it.

    Much love!
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    As another statement of motive, well, this is the same thing. This isn't something that as people we can know. This is why Jesus tells us not to judge.

    Just something to think about.
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Myself, I would say, One who has been born again. Born from God.
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha funny you mention that; i guess we have pretty good evidence that Nazareth was not even inhabited in the first century! Before and after, yes, apparently? Nazareth was apparently Nowhere

    hmm, never compared the two tbh, might be an interesting study; but there is a definite point imo to the Esau story, that no "church" will ever tell
     
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  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    Apollos waters, and fwiw i am sorry about that. My prayer is that you would find resurrection today ok
    go get rebaptized and listen in this time maybe :)
    "buried with Him in death, raised to new life in Him"
    i do apologize if you felt ridiculed, i would rather never eat meat again tbh now, and fwiw i am looking for a better way to say that
    Your bargain with the grave will be annulled; when the overwhelming scourge passes through, you will be trampled
    see so i dunno if i am being so ridiculous after all though
     
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  14. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    1. There are two Ways, one of Life and one of Death, and there is a great difference between the two Ways....

    ~The Didache~

    Peace be with you!
     
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  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I guess you don't remember when you did that [pounced upon] to me quite a long time ago now. I simply was engaging you in conversation. We did disagree on something and I don't even remember the primary subject. What I remember was that you mistook my wording of disagreement for a personal attack on you. I apologized and explained in different words what I meant. After my explanation, you admitted that you might have had misunderstood and you also apologized. Nevertheless after that I have been very to ever slow to engage you much at all although I would still read some of your posts. I wish I could honestly say that I never saw any of your posts to others after that which did not look like the same kind of thing to me. Communication is necessary if there is ever to be understanding and unity. If you do not understand...?

    There are a number of people on this forum who regularly call other people names or otherwise attack people personally rather than simply really discuss differences. I admit that usually I try to avoid such people and such threads. Usually, I do not believe that you have been among them, but when someone disagrees with you sometimes, it has seemed to me, that you have interpreted their words as attack when the only thing I have seen is a difference of opinion.

    Hey, I have done the same thing to my own regret, so I am not saying you are alone in such things and usually you don't get into the lengthy back and forth name calling which at times does occur on this forum... Please consider prayerfully where you are and what you doing and why when you see people disagreeing with you or saying things which might offend you. Sometimes, even though it can be hard to do, the best response is no response.



    Apology definitely accepted!

    Yes!

    I have not read every post that he has made, but I have read many of them and because I mostly approve. I sometimes seek out his posts to read. Yes, I have seen him make what I thought was a mistake, but I have learned to bite my tongue. I understand some things about him, but I do not understand everything. Sometimes when I think he has made a mistake, I hold my own tongue because I know I have been wrong on things before and might be wrong in the present instance as well.

    When I first saw him on this forum a few years ago and for a while after that I did not understand at all what he was saying much of the time and when I did I often disagreed with his manner or the spirit in which he spoke things out. Eventually as I learned to understand his language better I also came to realize that often his manner of speaking was most appropriate to the situation. Consider the difference between my first impression and how God changed my point of view!

    You, I believe, like many others on this forum standing against him really do not understand at all what he is doing and why. I have tried to explain my feelings on this before on this forum. I won't do that again now more than I already have. My suggestion is to simply consider simply keeping your hands off when you have only a negative reply to him or about him on the tip of your tongue.


    "Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
    Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
    Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
    And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
    For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
    But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
    Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:5-10


    Your 'sensitivity' could and should be a gift to do good as God does good. Ask Him for help to always use it wisely as Jesus would have done. When there is any doubt at all in your mind and heart as what is meant by someone's post or you are unsure as to whether God really intends for you to speak... then choose to remain silent. Study and pray on the reasons why Jesus chose to remain silent when most of us would have opened our mouths to defend ourselves. Remember the difference between Him and us: He was always innocent of all charges of wrong doing brought against Him. We, on the other hand, everyone of us, have, at the very least, a history of wrong doing and likely in some measure some of that wrong doing by us continues.

    Thank you!
    Stand always on the Lord's side in every thing... even in things that you may not be able to see clearly!

    "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

    Are you to definitely able separate the things you clearly see from the things you still seen only as through darkened glass?


    Does no one ever need to be ridiculed or even attacked? Perhaps what you have said is true in many cases but are there not a few otherwise? You have decided that there are not. Why is it that God would laugh or hold anyone in derision... yet the Psalmist indicates that He does? Why did God allow all of that grief to come on Job? Did Job need that ridicule of his 'friends' in the midst of his grief?

    Surely some of those Pharisees and Sadducees were sincere in their erroneous doctrines and beliefs when Jesus set them straight on things. Did he needlessly hurt their feelings? Can we compare our own actions or inactions favorably with His? Jesus never made a mistake in pursuing God's will for him: Have we?
    Already accepted!
     
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  16. Adoration

    Adoration Well-Known Member

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    @amadeus Hello to you... and PEACE be with you... You have a humble heart... and that is MOST pleasing to the Lord... I too have been grieved with things I see... I have (several times) put my nose where it does not belong in order to TRY and bring some sort of PEACE and HARMONY and RESPECT... I don't think this is a role that I desire to take on however.... Like you... there are many threads and posters that I simply CHOOSE to stay away from because of their inability to communicate in LOVE. Arrogance is my pet peeve...

    I hope that what you have shared here is merely a lamentation rather than a statement of weariness with the intention to LEAVE... The Lord said the workers would be few... the peace makers even fewer.... We live in a world where drama and strife have become like a DRUG.

    I BLESS you... You are BEAUTIFULLY clothed in tenderness.
     
  17. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    don't blame the church. God doesn't let you have the reward of your own judgments, because you don't deserve them. trust God's Judgement and live, trust man's (including yourself) and suffer consequences and die.
     
  18. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Again so sensitive!

    Poor me! [Don't be offended by this. If I never felt the same I would not understand that much.]

    No, I do not understand all of your motives, but sometimes what I have seen has been a selfishness. All of us have been there and only Jesus among men of flesh was never selfish. As we are on the approach [if we are] the selfishness should be decreasing and the selflessness increasing. If we stand still then the lukewarm result will be cause for God to spit us out.
     
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  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, but so many presume that this is already the end of the road, that being born again, born from above or born of God makes us already perfect, or assured of perfection, without regard to what choices including mistakes that we make from that point. How perfect was Adam when the dirt was formed and God breathed Life in the man? Quite perfect actually... but a perfect man able to make mistakes and he made one.
     
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Amadeus, what if you were to read my words simply for what they say, without assuming an emotional content which you don't actually know. I'm sensitive, yes, but not so much over myself as you seem to think.
     
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