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Featured tribulation and suffering part 1

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, Jun 5, 2020.

  1. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Hi mark, my understanding of justification is that by belief in Jesus Christ all our PAST sins are cleansed. It is not through self-effort of being righteous, because no amount of self-effort through a sinful nature can make us righteous. That is what is meant by "not by works." We must be born again, and that is only given by Jesus to those who truly repent and see that they are helpless in themselves, and need the power that only Jesus gives to make us dead to sin, and no longer in the sinful flesh/nature, but out of the flesh and into the Spirit - the divine nature. The "works" done through the Spirit are the works we will be judged, because we are still capable of grieving or even quenching the Spirit and not doing what we ought to do. If you don't help someone in need, and you were quickened to help, but refuse, you will be judged for that. On the other hand, if you obey, you will be judged righteous.

    Question: Are you believing the sheep are the Jews, and the goats are Gentiles? Fill out for me what you mean.

    I think you are believing the Old Testament "blessing and cursing" of Israel. Those who bless Israel will be blessed. Those nations that don't will be cursed. I happen to believe that also. After Obama, the only president that cursed Israel, I praise God that He chose Donald Trump to clear out the swamp.

    The unrighteous dead do not raise until after the Millennium when Satan is released from his 1000 year imprisonment.
     
  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    You are remembering that this judgment results in eternal punishment for the "goats"?

    Much love!
     
  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Why would you say the sheep represent the Christians? Christians will be judged to condemnation if they don't have the works mentioned?

    The judgment is based on works according to the way the passage is written. And . . . if these are Christians, there is no rapture at all, is that your thinking?

    Much love!
     
  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    This reader reads this part, the sheep/goats judgment, as narrative prophecy, meaning exactly what it says.

    Jesus will return, and gather Israel to their land. Then He will sit on His throne and the nations will be gathered and judged. And the kingdom age begins.

    I don't understand how it is people don't readily accept the prophecy "as is".

    Much love!
     
  5. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is the lake of fire. You seem to be associating goats with something I'm not. What is it?
     
  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 25
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Jesus returns to earth and establishes His kingdom, sitting on His throne of glory.

    When Jesus returns, all of His chosen nation are gathered together to Him. When Jesus sits on His throne, all the other nations are gathered to Him.

    After the nations are gathered, Jesus separates them left and right.

    Each of these things are prophesied in the OT to happen. In Ezekiel 39, the complete return of the Israelites. In Joel 3, the judgment of the nations.


    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then sh
    all the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat . . .

    And Jesus goes on to tell the different ways they cared for Him, though they did not know it.

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    The least of these my brothers. These are the Jews. They can't actually be anyone else.

    The chosen were gathered, and then the nations are gathered. Both were prophesied elsewhere, the Jews, and the Gentiles.

    The Jews are gathered in restoration. The Gentiles are gathered for judgment.

    What we see here are three groups of people, two of them from the "nations", those being the sheep and the goats, the third group called the chosen, and Jesus' brothers.

    The sheep and the goats are determined according whether they did or did not care for Jesus' brothers.

    And the goats, commanded to depart into eternal fire, because they did not believe in Jesus, No, that's not the reason. Because they didn't care for the Jews.

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    A real narrative prophecy, a series of events which will occur in the future, specifically, when Jesus returns in power and glory, at the beginning of the Kingdom Age.

    Much love!
     
  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I agree. So what do you think I'm saying?
     
  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    This time on earth mentioned can only be when the Shepherd Himself the Lamb is present. The church will not be here at all. It is not about gathering a church. It is about separating sheep on the spot. It is a time of judgment and harvest. The Lamb is working directly in person, along with 144K Jewish male virgin disciples.

    This is not really a rebuilding of the nation of Israel, either. The Trumpets in Revelation bring one after the other, natural disasters and even unnatural beings. Now this could be a time of war, and the use of troop movement. It would be like trying to have evangelical gospel tent meetings on the battlefields of World War 2. It will not be an ideal way to turn to the Redeemer of souls while people are dead and dying all around one. At one point another 33% of humanity dying in a matter of days.
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I misunderstood something you wrote. You had said the unrighteous dead won't be raised til after the millennium, I think I took that as, this sheep/goats judgment won't be until after the millennium. But I realize now that's not what you wrote.

    So to be clear, I believe this prophecy will be fulfilled after the great tribulation, and at the beginning of the millennial kingdom, and will concern those who remain alive when Jesus comes.

    Much love!
     
  10. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    No, you understood me right the first time. What scripture in particular makes you think judgment is before the Millennium? Judgment is only based on whose names are not in the Book of Life.
     
  11. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    There is only one group of humans said to not be named in the Book of Life. They are those who have the 666. That only happens in a 3.5 year period called the Great Tribulation. Satan is in control of the earth, without any interferences except the 2 witnesses. Those with 666 are killed in the 7 vials and the battle of Armageddon. This happens on Thursday to Saturday at the end of the Second Coming week. On Sunday is the one day battle of Armageddon. All living on earth will die by the sword in the mouth of the Lamb on a white horse. They will remain dead until the end of the 1000 years. Revelation 14-16 and 19.

    Revelation 20:11-15 is when all the dead from all time are said to be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

    11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
    13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.
    14 Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.
    15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire.
     
  12. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Judgment is on all from the beginning of time, not just from the Tribulation, isn't it. What scripture makes you think it is from such a short period of time?
     
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    It's in the prophecy. Jesus comes in glory, and when He comes in glory, He sits on His throne of glory, and the nations are gathered, and judged. Those who are the goats are sent to torment, and those who are the sheep enter into Jesus' kingdom, but this is not the great white throne judgment, that is different. That is the judgment of the dead. These are they who have survived the great tribulation.

    Much love!
     
  14. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you can provide the texts for me to look at or not, but I can't comment.
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Post 146

    :)
     
  16. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I'll go back and read them. Talk to you later, brother! Have a great day.
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Jesus had just finished the parable of the talents about the unprofitable servant who buried what he was given and did nothing with it. Jesus called that servant wicked and slothful, and he was cast to the outer darkness.

    If one is in Christ Jesus, the sign will be works in Him. But it's not those works that save, for they are only a sign of one's Faith. If one does not have works naturally from their Faith, then they show their faith is not real, but fake ("oh, I'll say I believe on Jesus just in case He really does come and divides the wicked.") This was actually Apostle James' argument that many seem to just disregard into some false law keeping idea. True Faith will produce works in Christ. Being a Christian does not mean sitting on our lazy behinds and just go follow the world.

    The fact that Jesus categorized those sheep as being those for whom the kingdom was prepared before the foundation of the world is a hard marker pointing to Christ's Church, the sheep of John 10.
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You are not accepting it as written, because your view denies this passage He said...

    Matt 25:33-34
    33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

    KJV

    Those for whom the kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world is about Christ's Church (Ephesians 1).
     
  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Your accusations of intellectual dishonesty are misplaced.

    God prepared His kingdom for all who would be brought into it, from whatever people in whatever time, would you not agree?

    Let's look at Ephesians 1 to see if it declares the church to be The One for whom the kingdom was prepared.

    Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
    16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    So as I look through this chapter, I've bolded what I've seen that may refer to what God did for us before, but I'm not seeing anything about the kingdom. Can you point me to the verse you have in mind, and show me how this refers to the kingdom being prepared solely for the church?

    This would also leave me wondering who David will be king over.

    Much love!
     
  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    True, but the Christianity of Paul's letters does not include being accepted into the kingdom, or rejected into eternal punishment, based on our works.

    I'm curious . . . do you see a "rapture" happening, and if so, when do you think it will be?

    Yet these will be judged based specifically on their works, and not just any works, these certain works. And not for rewards, for acceptance or condemnation.

    Much love!
     
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