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Trinity?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by afaithfulone4u, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. excubitor

    excubitor New Member

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    It is never advisable to announce that somebody would stone Stephen.
    We cannot grasp what Stephen saw in vision. Visions themselves are physical interpretations of the spiritual realm which are not even necessarily thoughts which could be perceived by the eyes or ears but are imprinted directly on our minds. It is probably impossible to convey to another person what is understood and perceived in a vision because it is outside of our physical experience. So in other words, not only is what Christ perceived in a vision a crude representation of God, but his explanation of what he saw is itself a crude representation. So Christ is certainly at the right hand of God but to imagine that means that there are two beings sitting on the throne of heaven I deny altogether. There is one God sitting on the throne of heaven. That God is the Father and the Son at his right hand, and the Holy Ghost is with us dwelling in us as our comforter until Christ returns. Its interesting that the Holy Ghost could not come until Jesus had ascended into heaven. Is the Holy Ghost with the Father and the Son on the throne of heaven as well as being in those of us who are born again Christians? I'm not sure about that. I think he is because he is an omnipresent person. Is Christ omnipresent or is he confined to his glorified human body? Is his glorified human body somehow now omnipresent also? I think not because otherwise the concept of him coming again would be redundant. The mysteries of the Godhead are almost infinite for us and cannot really be grasped by us. Perhaps at the resurrection we will understand more fully the mysteries of the godhead but until then we must take on face value with a simple heart of accepting belief the testimony of the apostles and the teaching of the church on the matter.
    Whatever deficiencies are found by expressing the Doctrine of the Trinity we can be very certain that in expressing them we are avoiding the heresies which by contradiction are certainly wrong.

    This is why we must be careful to understand that the Doctrine of the Trinity is not an attempt to explain the godhead exactly or fully. Its purpose is to confront and decry heresies which have been told from the earliest times. Stephen did not see two beings in his vision. If anybody claims that he did then they are expressing heresy. Mark such men and avoid them as they cast confusion among the body of Christ.
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 excubitor. GINOLJC

    you are correct in saying, We cannot grasp what Stephen saw in vision. Visions themselves are physical interpretations of the spiritual realm which are not even necessarily thoughts which could be perceived by the eyes or ears but are imprinted directly on our minds.

    and, to imagine that means that there are two beings sitting on the throne of heaven I deny altogether. There is one God sitting on the throne of heaven. That God is the Father and the Son at his right hand, and the Holy Ghost is with us dwelling in us as our comforter until Christ returns.

    Its interesting that the Holy Ghost could not come until Jesus had ascended into heaven. Is the Holy Ghost with the Father and the Son on the throne of heaven as well as being in those of us who are born again Christians? I'm not sure about that.

    may I, if you will add to this, maybe for someone edification, or a help to them
    our brother Stephen was in the Spirit when he saw our God, the Lord Jesus. only in the Spirit could he see this. not with his natural eyes. you're correct in that Visions themselves are physical interpretations of the spiritual realm. what our brother Stephen saw was the power of God, in that vision, Christ Jesus. here plainly we see the Lord as God. Stephen called on God, by the PERSONAL JESUS/YESHUA , not Jehovah, nor Yahweh. for there is no other name where by men are saved, or have a PERSONAL relationship with the one true God.


    on the right hand, or the right arm of God, is the power, the force, or the strength of God. the term right hand, or arm of God, is a anthropomorphism, meaning the attribution of human form or behavior given to a deity, here it means in Power. most people misunderstand this and take it literal. but it is a figurative term. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". here God brought salvation by his own power, in the Flesh and blood of his Christ, who died for our sins..
    this can be seen clearly in the Old testament as a contrast to a fleshly arm force of man, 2 Chronicles 32:7 "Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is with him: for there be more with us than with him: 8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah". here the opposing King had an army of men and horses. in our terminology today its our Military, the men and women of our "ARMed" forces.

    now, his return and "Is Christ omnipresent or is he confined to his glorified human body? Is his glorified human body somehow now omnipresent also?"
    I'll try to respond to both question. the Holy Ghost is the Father, and he was in the Son on Earth, meaning in the Flesh body, as the diversity of God, supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation". his return is only in "ANOTHER" form. question is not the Holy Ghost in you, YES, as well as in me. but you're in another location from me. but the same Spirit that is in you and I, are in all the people of the world at the same time. he is even in the wicked, but he don't have any part of their way. oh yes, they breath by him, just as we do for we all have our movement, being in him. his sun shine on them as it do us who are saved. the wicked is not here on their own accord or power, and neither are we. everything is in God power.
    Christ is God in his NEW TABERNACLE, (body). Yes he is omnipresent in Spirit, and ubiquitous in the glorified body. let me explain, Ubiquitous is applied to that which seems to appear in many and all sorts of places. (please look up the word, and it full meaning). after his resurrection our Lord appeared and disappeared in many places. example, John 20:19 "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you". (notice, Jesus didn't knock on the door, no blood to hinder now). also he appears on the road to Emmaus. an appearance is not a manifestation such as a vision, or dreams. but the reality can be. to the best of my knowledge, (which is little, or limited). the difference between a manifestation and an appearance is this. an appearance is the source, made "BY", or "through" an "OBJECT" in one place at one time. a manifestation is the source "of" the "OBJECT", in many places and many times. example, when Thomas ask our Lord Jesus/God how will he manifest himself to them, and not the world. (see John 14:22) this is how?, in the spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians, chapter 12 verses 4-7. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". THERE'S THE MANIFESTATION OF JESUS, THE HOLY SPIRIT. these verses put the trinity doctrine in serious trouble. for it is only ONE "GOD" as 1 Corinthians 12:6 plainly states. and that ONE GOD is the SAME, "Lord", and the SAME Lord is the SAME "Spirit", supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". that SAME God that same Lord is the Spirit. our bro Thomas said it best "My God, and my Lord". THAT'S WHY THE SPIRIT DIDN'T COME UNTIL JESUS RETURNED, TO BE IN FULL POWER, so he my be "UBIQUITOUS" in his glorified body, remember our definition of appearance, "by", or "through" an object. God/Jesus body is the object, (the son of God, that was made, flesh) which the Spirit/God operated "by" or "through". for he's, that child, that son of Isaiah 9:6 is God's "ARM" of flesh. that why he is called, Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. on earth in flesh and blood God could heal only one person at a time because that flesh. with blood, in the natural, it limited the power of God only to one place at one time on while here EARTH in that body. Jesus touch only one person at a time, remember, he "took on the FORM of a servant". but , now, no more, he all God in glorification, ALL POWER, without the blood. was this not foretold?, even the prophets of old didn't know, but prophesied it, 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow". this is the glory that our bro Stephen saw when he was stone, this is the glory David saw, when he said, "the LORD said unto my Lord, sit at my right", see Rev chapter 5, right meaning in power (in flesh, God's arm of flesh, see 1 Corinthians 1:24). this is what Isaiah saw, in the throne room of the almighty, (see Isaiah chapter 6), and this is what John on the island of Patmos saw in the book of Revelation, one seated on the throne and in full power and glorified with his NEW BODY, or TABERNACLE, the revealing of the true God, the Lord JESUS.
    but his Spirit is everywhere, so he can appear everywhere, at any in full power. scripture, Jeremiah 23:23 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD". so by his Spirit which is every where, he can appear anywhere at any time, and manifest himself also. so his omnipresent is true, even in his glorified body. he is ubiquitous. now what about his omnipotent?. if he is present everywhere do he have the power to do it. he's all powerful. but to satisfy our curiosity, let go to the scripture and prove it out. John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it". do is an action, G1411, dunamis, the ability or the might to do something. this is where we get our English word dynamite from. powerful, explosive, might. did he not demonstrated his power in the beginning?, and even now in his glorified body, scripture, Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist". so lets be sure that all of this is now accredited to him in his Glorified body. scripture, Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". THERE IT IS. before his glorification in the new body he operated by his Spirit, in flesh and blood as a prophet, this is the operation of God, (see 1 Corinthians 12:6). in un-glorified flesh, he was limited as a man on earth by the blood he had in the NATURAL BODY. that's why Philippians 2:6 say, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". he is God all the time but took on a NATURE that he would separate from by giving that NATURAL "LIFE" he MADE in the FLESH, the BLOOD. that's the LIFE GOD GAVE, THAT BLOOD. the LIFE HE KNEW AS THE SON OF GOD IN FLESH ON EARTH. but now he have no blood, as the scripture states, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". the question is asked, what glory he had before the world, "SPIRIT". now that same SPIRIT is in a body that is changed or quicken from its natural use here on earth. in that new body he lives by the SPIRIT.

    Love and Peace
    101G
     
  3. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! Everyone; (especially to 'Meshak')
    Hopefully, we can all agree to dismiss the accusations and slurs which this particular subject (Trinity) oftentimes invites.
    Personally speaking, I'm not threatened by whatever religion one might subscribe to. Religion is simply people cooperating within a defined doctrinal posture. Obviously, the reason that there is such a multitude of religions today is because there remains a multitude of disagreements among Christians.
    People should be able to freely question the 'norm' without being harassed, accused and/or slandered. After all, the man who nailed the tattered text saying "Justified by Faith" to the Vatican doors was himself questioning the 'norm' during his time and this ushered in what we know as the 'Reformation'. Sometimes I wonder how Luther's teachings would have been received in a Discussion Forum such as this.
    So, with that out of the way, I'll continue:
    There seems to be confusion between the various terms/words associated with the 'Trinity Doctrine".
    There evidently are three so-called 'persons' referred to in the Trinity: God, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. There's also the peripheral personage 'Word' too that must somehow be added to the mix.
    I don't believe it's possible to fully explain nor comprehend the interconnection between these three 'entities' unless we first can clearly define them independently from each other. Otherwise, it begs the question: since God Himself is omnipresent and all-powerful, what activities of the additional two 'personages' validates and identifies them?
    Evidently, a lot of Christians are hardly able to comprehend their own personal trinity ... body, soul and spirit ... and how these separate entities together function as one. So, it should surprise no one that these same Christians continue to have difficulty understanding the concept behind the so-called divine 'trinity'.
    It was not possible for me personally to comprehend the so-called 'Trinity' until I was able to clearly define each of the three 'persons' independently and ascribe them their own activities, functions and place in the plan of Salvation. In the same manner, a Christian cannot fully comprehend the 'born again' experience nor the ultimate intentions and purposes of God with their lives without first understanding the workings of his inner man ... soul and spirit.
     
  4. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, greeting.

    There seems to be confusion between the various terms/words associated with the 'Trinity Doctrine".

    True, but the main term I have found that is confusing most Christian is the word GOD it self, believe it or not. and the titles in reference to the word God. Father, and son. which most have made into persons. the Lord Jesus have called us out of confusion, "many are called but only a few are chosen", these things must happen, many are blinded to the truth. Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day". true believers are to be patient, as the scripture states, "not a brawler". God knows what he is doing.

    There evidently are three so-called 'persons' referred to in the Trinity: God, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. There's also the peripheral personage 'Word' too that must somehow be added to the mix.
    titles, and common nouns with Appellation, will make one think that there are three persons. but one must study to be approved. not to study to know, or learn anything, but to be approved by God to receive the Revelation. studying the bible is good, but lets not lean to our own understanding, ask for wisdom from above.

    I don't believe it's possible to fully explain nor comprehend the interconnection between these three 'entities' unless we first can clearly define them independently from each other.
    believe, and have FAITH, God himself tell us who he is what he is and how many he is, if I can say it that way. the Holy scripture clearly explain the Godhead, but men have given their own private interpretation which the scripture forbid. John the baptist work is still ongoing, he must "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord". truly his witness is still on going. men must be persuade by the scripture. but one day at God's choosing we will all speak the same thing. I just believe that.

    Love and Peace
    101G
     
  5. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! '101G'

    In my opinion, the problem is not so much with the basic ideas behind the so-called 'Trinity' as it is about the convoluted manner with which it's usually explained.
    In similar fashion, most Christians would be hard pressed to successfully enunciate their triune-self (body, soul and spirit).
    No one is foolish enough to deny that there exists God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. Nor can there be any argument that the 'hidden' inner man consists of the human spirit and a soul.
    The essence of both issues is how we conceive their functioning and activities and thereby properly identify them.
    If it could be said that there are failures in Christianity, it could also be said that the largest success of failure is that of the utter paradox in our concepts regarding God.
    Frankly, a lot of us seem to behave much like the religious Jews of Jesus' day when it comes to discussing the 'Trinity; All sorts of alarm bells go off and the accusations of heretic soon begin to appear, If it's any comfort, some intransigent doctrinal fanatics accused Jesus of being the devil and so I'm not so easily threatened by this kind of accusatory nonsense.

    Since our desire is to truly worship the Living God in spirit and in truth, we should first want to rightly identify Him in order not to serve foreign gods.
    There never seems to be a problem for Christians concerning Father God; at least, concerning His existence. Yet, it remains true that there is a large chasm between what many Christians believe concerning His true identity; about His true face ... His character and attributes.
    Some insist to identify Him as something near a pagan God Who demands appeasement. Others remain content with the idea that He can oftentimes behave schizophrenic; rescuing and healing on one hand while causing mayhem and destruction on the other.
    While quick to say that God is indeed good, most Christians remain very reluctant to identify Him as only and perfectly good.
    God has never assumed the posture of a prosecutor with His creation. Neither does He sit restless in His supposed vengeance upon man. God's thoughts towards men are not thoughts of retaliation or revenge. When the Bible declares the words: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay", it means that evil incarnate will be avenged --- the real perpetrator of sin: against the, "despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere", (Eph 6:10). God detached Himself from them by rejecting them and finally He will avenge Himself by casting them into the lake of fire. In this respect, the work of Jesus has begun: justice, (that is a judgment or separation between good and evil), is being seen to triumph in God's people so that they may be holy and completely pure, (Matt 12:20).

    For some, it seems that the Holy Spirit is a little more challenging to properly identify. Most imagine a mysterious ghostly form gazing over heaven and earth and occupied with performing the wishes and commands of Father God.
    However, it's the ideas concerning Jesus which seems to have given a lot of Christians the most difficulty. It's often a compounded difficulty because Jesus is also said to be the 'Word'.

    To properly identify Jesus, we must first have a full understanding about the origin and meaning of the 'Word'.
    The Word was born in the very heart of God; in His innermost being.
    John 1:1 says " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made".
    In God "the Word" was formed and that Word formed all His eternal counsel of what was to be. God worked on a plan. In His inner self a fantastic great idea evolved, a thought which contained all His intents and purposes. And this was with God and remained hidden with God as a yet unspoken thought.
    The Word was with God, the Word was God. That plan, that unspoken Word, is what gave substance to the beginning of everything.
    Before God uttered one single word, that Word, (meaning the complete plan of God), was prepared in Him. God had thought of everything; including even the most trivial details. He considered and concluded to Himself, "This is it!". This is the plan I will accomplish.
    In the beginning this Word was with God and all things came to be of that Word. Without the Word, nothing of that which has been created since the beginning would have existed says John. It was this very fact that formed the basis of John's thinking and the starting-point of his gospel, (John 1:1) and also his letters (1John1:1).
    Clearly, the 'Word' cannot be perceived as an independent personage. Similarly, the figure of 'Wisdom' in Proverbs 8 is not a personage.
    The Word of God became flesh in the womb of Mary. Therefore, Jesus is the Word made flesh.
    It's not for nothing that Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to Your word”. It was the eternal Word of God which impregnated Mary and behaved as the sperm/seed of God. This Word is connected to the power of God's Spirit and overshadowed Mary.and she received the seed of God, His Word,
    So, the statement of Jesus saying, "Before Abraham was, I am", (John 8:58), is abundantly clear. Before Abraham existed, the New Creation (including Jesus), existed in the depths of God's innermost being as the 'Word'. Before his fall Adam was the immature man of God, but the last Adam was the mature. The stupendous difference between a caterpillar and a butterfly!
    Jesus, as Word of God, is the incarnation of the invisible God's thoughts. He is the firstborn of all creation because only in Him has Father's ultimate intentions and purposes for mankind reached it's glorious fulfillment.

    In this very day and hour, God is still working with His original intentions; according to His Word. He continues to accomplish His original plan; He remains active with the "Word that is from the beginning". Father God remains completely dedicated to the full realization of that Word, His plan.
    In Jesus,God created the beginning of a new humanity with whom He could cooperate with to renew heaven and earth, (Rev 3:14).
    Thus, we too declare of ourselves, "Be it be for me according to your Word".
     
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  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, GINOLJC.

    first off, if we're going to discuss this topic, you better start using more common, plain, understandable, simple words that we, the common people know, and understand. I don't want to have to be going to the dictionary after every other sentence and look up a word, and break it down, OK. occasionally, you can use a big words, here and there, (smile).

    Now, to business. In your respond, I see what I have been saying all along, about the term, "GOD, and how it is used. example, in reading your response, "there exists God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ". to me, when I read this I 'm under the impression that there are three existences, as in three being, or person. this is what I mean about confusion using this terminology. lets see this in you response, using these words or phrases.

    the term God, this was taken from your response, and put in a list.
    1. God, His Word,
    2. Jesus is the Word.
    3. Word of God.
    4. Jesus, as Word of God.
    5. In Jesus, God created the beginning.
    6. Jesus, is the incarnation of the invisible God's thoughts .
    7. concerning Father God.
    8. God's Spirit. 8a. the power of God's Spirit.
    9.This Word is connected to the power of God's Spirit and overshadowed Mary.and she received the seed of God, His Word
    10. Similarly, the figure of 'Wisdom' in Proverbs 8 is not a personage.

    looking at these few references. can we see the confusion?. look at all the titles, Appellation, and Epithet used here. I use them too.
    lets take some scripture that have already been stated, and eliminate some of the confusion. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    now, if the word was God, as John said, then Jesus is God, see #2. but also look at how the term "word" is used in 1, 2, 3, 4, and 9. see the confusion?.

    also look at #9 & 10 in your response, lets see this in scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". if Christ, who is Jesus, is the power of God, and the wisdom of God, then that is a person, and that same Person is God, meaning ONE PERSON as stated in #2. now look at #10. this is an EXAMPLE ONLY, no reflection on you, because WE ALL BEEN GUILTY, of using these same words of statements. Jesus the Christ is God not just his word, not just his Spirit, not just his wisdom, not just his power. but he is God. that's where the problem lay. did you see what I said about confusion, we all are Guilty of it. there's the mystery in the terminology of the word, "GOD". but this is the design of God, for the prophet Isaiah by God wrote it plainly, chapter 29, starting at verse 9 "Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned". the educated ones can't understand it fully, and the unlearned neither, we're all in the same boat. this book, that is symbolized in the right hand of he who sit on the throne in Revelation chapter 5. is the bible, that sealed book, sealed with seven seals. the bible is a closed book. only the WISDOM of the Lord Jesus, from above can open our understanding of this book. and the only way for the learned, or the unlearned to understand it is to ask for wisdom in Faith. as the apostle James said, (see chapter 1 verse 5, but take heed to verse 6). so then, we must have the revelator, the HOLY SPIRIT, who is the Lord himself.

    for me,
    When someone say, HOLY SPIRIT, I say Jesus *****
    when someone say God, I say Jesus
    when someone say Father, I say Jesus
    when someone say Son of man, I say Jesus
    when someone say Son of God, I say Jesus
    when someone say word of God, I say Jesus
    when someone say the Christ, I say Jesus
    when someone say Creator, I say Jesus
    when someone say Redeemer, I say Jesus
    when someone say Saviour, I say Jesus
    when someone say Mediator, I say Jesus
    when someone say Comforter, I say Jesus
    when someone say King, of kings, I say Jesus
    when someone say LORD, Lord of lords, I say Jesus
    when someone say the only Immortal, I say Jesus
    when someone say the Holy One, I say Jesus
    when someone say Prince of Peace, I say Jesus

    I don't use the term God for all these titles. but I understand that men use these titles, Appellation, and Epithet to identify the true PERSON, JESUS, as God.
    In my opinion, that's the problem. once one can see, and identify that this is only one PERSON, then one can see, and walk in the light, as he is in the light.

    so MTPockets you see where I stand on the terminology of the word, "GOD". Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". but what is his PERSONAL NAME. not any of the titles, Appellation, and Epithet stated above.

    I hope we can sit down, and discuss this topic without any side show references, name calling, and without predetermine doctrine in mind. and just go with the scriptures only. as the apostle Paul said, "let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus". lets put everything on the table. nothing for, and, nothing against, and let the truth come forth. lets REASON together, and not at each other. we will present options, and counter counter option, but by scripture, no private interpretation, unless by scripture, meaning a revelation, and that's by scripture also. if agreed, I will hear your terms, or stipulations, and then we can start a discussion.

    love and Peace
    101G
     
  7. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Very well said...and a good starting point towards a meaningful discussion.

    God has an intention..a will...and this is found IN Him. So Jesus Christ is an extension of God's will and intention. As such He IS the word of God. And this Word dwelt among us. God willed that as many as possible (according to the truth) be saved. So He gave of Himself...a part of Him..that this may be accomplished. God's will changed the world through a PERSONAL intervention. Not through an agent or third party....but a direct contribution to the state of affairs by having a part of Himself take on flesh. Just as an obedient son takes on his own father's affairs.

    We see the divinity of Jesus Christ throughout the bible in prophecy and in deed. A man or angel cannot be abided in...One created being cannot indwell another created being. So as we abide in Christ we enter into the perfect plan of God. We become as He through His training...into the likeness of His Son. Thus we enter into the family of God.
     
  8. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    If this is the case, then explain how Jesus is presently at the right hand of God, how He sat down with His Father on His Father's throne? Is Jesus beside Himself?


    Sorry. I just went back and read your comment on Stephen's vision (#62). It does not impress me that you deny what is seen and reported. Deny all you want. I think that you are being tripped up by the word "one". Here is a thought. Ten geese can also be "one" flock. Three bananas can also be "one" bunch. One herd does not mean one animal.

    The bible does not say that God is one person. It says God is one. But in scripture we can clearly see the partnership and fellowship between more than one entity, or persons (whatever term suits you). Now it takes no less "imagination (your choice of words)" to think that this is one person having a relationship with Himself than it does to see three persons in relationship. The amount of 'imagination' is the same. Is it one person expressed in three entities, or three persons in partnership to form one God? The latter is how the bible expresses it. Why change, or worse, deny what it is communicating to satisfy one's comprehension? It says what it says.

    In the beginning was the word. And the word was with God. And the word was God. I know that quite likely your are trained to ask..."is Jesus divided?". Don't ask me. Ask John. He wrote what he wrote. That question comes from another context. It does not apply to this subject. But in reply to that question..No. Jesus is Jesus. The Father is the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that the Father would send "another" helper. They are one in purpose, unity, partnership, authority, and eternity. They are not divided.

    With water, Hydrogen is greater than oxygen (h2o). But the two in partnership form a third substance. In the same manner, the Father is the head of the Son (the Father is greater than I). Jesus said that even as the Father has life in Himself, He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. It takes a much more active imagination to see this as one person doing all these things with, and to, Himself.
     
  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 williemac, GINOLJC.

    If this is the case, then explain how Jesus is presently at the right hand of God, how He sat down with His Father on His Father's throne? Is Jesus beside Himself?

    first, you must didn't read my explanation of what the right hand, or arm of God means. not another Person sitting next to another person. its the same person, only in a "DIVERSIFIED" state. this is just the short answer, stick around for the discussion please.

    Love and Peace
    101G

    P.S. for your benefit look up what a diversified spirit is. you just might be surprise.

    Oh yes, Episkopos touch on it


    2 williemac,

    The bible does not say that God is one person. It says God is one.

    you just about answered my take on God. is not your spirit you, y/n?.

    is not Elijah spirit, Elijah, answer yes.

    is not God Spirit, God. the answer yes. so how you get two Spirits, God/father and Holy Spirit. now if that's not clear, I ask, is not the Spirit of Christ, is the Spirit of God yes or no?.

    I'll be waiting for your answer.
     
  10. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist Many are called but few are chosen.

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    So you're a jehovah's witness? Have you brought out the big gun yet? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. What does the Greek say?

    In any case I find typically JW's don't recognize when Jesus is speaking as GOD or a man. Why should they? You need the spirit of God to do that. B)

    Ps: Jw's celebrate the passover(Lord's supper) on the wrong date as well. Nisan 15 is incorrect, rather it should be nisan 14, as the scripture says.
     
  11. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! Everyone and '101G'
    I apologize for my excessive vocabulary. I'm a professional author and my vocabulary habits unwittingly follow me, I'll try an' tone it down though.
    I have an idea that might help us discuss better between us all participating in this Thread:
    Why don't we first try to arrive at some general agreement about what each of the 3 so-called-persons do. Just as we are known by our deeds, I also believe that that the ideas behind the Trinity can be better understood by their (persons) deeds too.
    There's no need to answer with a theological treatise, We are simply looking for a brief explanation.
    So, lets begin:
    I don't think there's a need for anyone of us to identify God because the Bible already clearly says that "God is spirit".
    So, let's begin with the so-called-person known as the Holy Spirit.
    What does the Holy Spirit do? What function does the Holy Spirit fulfill?
    My own answer is that the Bible seems to say that the Holy Spirit functions primarily as the executor of God's will.
    Would everyone agree with this brief description?
    ====
    By the way: I don't belong to any religion. Therefore, I'm not a Jehovah Witness, a Catholic, a Pentecostal nor even a Baptist. This is simply because, after my first hearing the Gospel (40 years ago), I quickly became very cautious with those who had attached themselves to a religion. So, please don't suspect me of having an religious agenda.
     
  12. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    I will reply when you reply to all of my post. Awe, never mind. I will reply. No. My spirit is not me. I am a soul who lives in a physical body which connects me to the physical realm. If this body were to be destroyed, I would enter the spiritual realm, in which case I will need a spiritual body to connect my soul to it. This is my spirit. Check out 2Cor.5:1. Two bodies are mentioned; one for each realm. The part of us that is "we" in the passage, who live in the body (tent), is our soul. The word comes from the Greek "psyche", which means 'mind'. In Math.10:28, we find that if a person kills the body, he cannot kill the soul. Body and soul are not linked so that they cannot be separated. They are in fact separated at death, as the passage indicates, the one dying, the other remaining alive. But the passage also states that in Gehenna (translated 'hell'), both body and soul will be destroyed.

    The soul always needs a body to dwell in. Our flesh for this realm, and our spirit for the next. However, in the resurrection, there will be a new body for the soul, which will bear the properties of both flesh and spirit, as Jesus resurrected body does. But we will also be indwelt by the Spirit of God, just as we who have the Spirit, are at this time. How about you? Do you have the Holy Spirit in you? I certainly hope so.

    But speaking of the Spirit of God. Why reply to such foolish questioning? You have not replied to the passages where Jesus tells them that if He goes away, the Father will send another Helper, the Holy Spirit. Here we have all three seen in one passage, with the one talking about the other two. And Jesus begins this amazing promise in John 14:23, where He states that BOTH He and the Father will come to them and make their home with them. In that passage, He uses the word "OUR" (home). Methinks that you are in denial. You can avoid a reply on this if you choose, but it will only reveal the weakness of your understanding.
     
  13. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'Williemac'
    I've read your comments above with much interest.
    I think you might be needing some help to have your thoughts seamlessly fit together with declared Scripture..
    For instance, you wrote: "I am a soul who lives in a physical body which connects me to the physical realm. If this body were to be destroyed, I would enter the spiritual realm, in which case I will need a spiritual body to connect my soul to it. This is my spirit". If you don't mind me saying, this is an improper premise to have.
    Would you be interested in having me offer you additional considerations about this matter of the triune man? (spirit/soul/body)
    I jus' thought I'd ask yuh. I wouldn't be at all offended if you declined.
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, GINOLJC.

    I don't think there's a need for anyone of us to identify God because the Bible already clearly says that "God is spirit". So, let's begin with the so-called-person known as the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit do? What function does the Holy Spirit fulfill?

    I don't think there's a need for anyone of us to identify God because the Bible already clearly says that "God is spirit. I do, God is the Holy Spirit. cap "S". to distinguish him from all the other spirits, small case, "s". I think that one of the problem, separating the term "God", form the true Spirit. the term Holy Spirit is an identifier, an Appellation. Holy is his character, or his behavior, the way he acts. and Spirit is his Nature. hence Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation". now a question, who calls?, answer, God. 16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy". where is this written, Leviticus 11:44 "For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". here God identifies himself as "Holy", and we know that he is "Spirit". 1 Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear". now the title Father, 1 John 5:7 states, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". the key here is the word "these", not they, these are titles of the one same person. is not the Word God?, see John 1:1, is not the Father God, see 1 Corinthians 8:6. and we just seen God as the "HOLY" Spirit. Titles are not person. which entails he hold the three title. just as the term "son", according to the flesh is an offspring or a diversity of flesh and blood. but the term "Son" according to the Spirit is an offspring or diversity of the Spirit, according to character, characteristics, or the behavior of the PERSON LIFE. is their LIFE HOLY or UNHOLY. meaning are they LIKE GOD, who is HOLY. for the scripture states, "BE YE HOLY FOR I AM HOLY". so to me, only to me, Identifying who God is require our attention. for the flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life. and as you said MTPockets God is Spirit.

    Love and Peace
    101G.
     
  15. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! '101G'
    Yeah, I kinna' suspected that my avoiding to identity the personage of God might cause some to rightfully question.
    Ummm, I'd like to respond to your comment saying, "God is the Holy Spirit. cap 'S'". Your composite of God's identity as being the Holy Spirit is somewhat correct. However, (in my opinion), it still blurs things a bit.

    It might be helpful if we perceive the spiritual world (the heavens) as a situation; similar to how we perceive climate or atmosphere.
    When speaking about the spiritual world, we should not to think bout locations; only of situations. In this respect, the NBV-translation has it translated correctly when Ephesians reads as "heavenly spheres".

    Everything which remains invisible to the natural eye is mirrored in our visible world. One could almost say that the natural world is an mirrored image of the spiritual world. The visible things are like a 'parable' for the invisible things. Paul stated this in Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

    Because the entire physical world has been created and arrayed by the word of God, we can say that the visible has come into being from the invisible.
    For instance, the sun is a visible image of the invisible God. Example: "For the Lord God is a sun", (Ps 84:11), "The sun of righteousness", (Mal 4:2); The moon is an image of the Jesus Christ. Example: "And the light shineth in darkness", (John 1:5).
    The Old Testament saints did not attend famed learning centers; neither were they said to possess a superior intelligence. Jesus wasn't walking the shores of Galilee with a Strong's Concordance in His hands; nor was He choosing to speak only to highly developed and educated people. This is the principle reason why Jesus was constantly employing parables to declare His message to the people during His ministry.

    The question needing answer for our discussion here is: What visible image do we have regarding the so-called-trinity? What can we use as a parable to express the triune existence of God?
    Since our whole existence points to the existence of our Creator, it should surprise no one that we we can use the composite of man as the parable. After all, every man is also a composite which also enjoys a 'trinity'; a triune existence. Namely, a body, soul and (human) spirit. After all, man is said to have been created in the "image and likeness" of God, ("Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness", Gen 1:26, Gen 5:1).

    Since humans are created in the image of God, it implicitly means that we are formed/shaped in a similar manner as God Himself. The Bible tells us that man is an image-bearer of God; a potential son of God both in nature and being. Genesis clearly states that God created man with characteristics and faculties resembling and complimenting that which He Himself possesses. However, while Man resembles His Creator, he is not equal to Him. Man is a being complementary to God's being. While not identical to God, man is entirely compatible to Him.

    The image of man is closely connected with the image of God and vice-versa. A good Biblical image of man is not merely an interesting theory. It not only has serious consequences regarding ourselves and about our functioning in heaven and on earth, but also for our image of God and our thoughts concerning spiritual realities.

    Just as heaven is 'higher' than earth, the spiritual body is of a higher dimension than the natural body.Humans possess a spirit and so does God. Humans have a soul, and God has a soul too. Humans have a body and God also has a body.
    Ouch! I can hear the screams of protest from some while reading the above statement.
    But jus' hang on fer a bit an' hear me through, please.
    Haven't you noticed? The ideas that Christians have about God are mostly derived from their ideas concerning man. This is why a wrong image of man can frequently cause a true image of God to be nearly impossible.

    Let me ask you: Does Jesus now possess a visible body for Himself? No, he doesn't. But Jesus does indeed possess a spiritual body that is not bound by physical laws. And, this spiritual body has the ability to take shape and form in this physical dimension.
    "Then said he to Thomas, 'Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing'".
    Would it be correct to assume that Jesus is walking around the heavens in this day with the same body that John 20:27 mentions?
    The answer is both yes and also no.
    The spiritual body of Jesus is not substance; it is spirit. As such, when the spiritual body of Jesus appears within our physical dimension, it is seen as having the 'form' or 'shape' of a body ... not a physical body as we know it. "After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country". Clearly, Jesus chooses the form and shape of His appearing.

    Yes, we're all familiar with the verse saying, "God is spirit", John 4:24.
    But does this mean to say that God, a spirit being, doesn't possess a body?
    No, it's doesn't mean that at all.

    For instance, even though angels don’t have physical bodies, they can see, hear and speak. They have the ability to communicate with God, with each other and with people in the tongues of men and of angels, (1Cor 13:1). They see the face of the Father, (Matt 18:10). They listen to the sound of God's word and praise the Lord, (Ps 103:20). They speak to men and listen to their reactions, (Gen 21:17 and Luke 1).
    Angels can rejoice, (Luke 15:10, Heb 12:22). They can carry people, (Luke 16:22), guard them (Ps 91:11) and take care of them (Matt 4:11).
    In addition, given the number of angels which became unfaithful to God, we can also conclude that angels have a free will.
    Angels have a spiritual body, with spiritual organs, spiritual limbs, a spiritual heart and they possess spiritual strength to carry out God's assignments. Therefore, angels are spirit beings possessing the attributes as having a spiritual body and it is said of them that they are spiritual beings existing in the spiritual world.

    Clearly, angels have faculties which are very similar to those belonging to a human being.
    So, we could say that angels function in heaven in a similar manner as would human beings on earth. Angels have a shape and form that closely resemble physical abilities of a human being. They have a head and a face, feet to stand, hands to grasp hold of something or to give something, (Rev 10). They can walk and sit, (Matt 28:2) and do all variations of work.
    I need you to remember the above thoughts concerning angels for a time later when I will mention the attributes of the Holy Spirit.

    To understand what Bible verse "God is spirit" means, we first have to know the properties of what the Bible names as the "inner-man".

    When the Bible refers to the inner self of man, it uses the word 'spirit'. But also the words 'soul' and 'heart'. All of these words indicate a middle or center-core; similar to the way we would speak about the 'heart' of a city, the 'heart' of winter and/or about the 'heart' of a circle.
    When the Bible refers to the heart of man, it is referring to his spiritual heart; the core of his being. This spiritual heart is forms the core/center of his spiritual body. In the same manner that our physical heart is encompassed by our natural body, so too our spiritual heart is surrounded by our spiritual body ... the inner man.

    There are various Hebrew words used to express the word 'heart' in the Old Testament. The vast majority of them exclusively have the meaning of 'heart' and 'innerself' and are translated accordingly. However, an exception is made for this single word: 'nefesj'. For instance, the KJV translates it 428 times with the word 'soul' and 15 times with the word 'heart'. So, we may cautiously conclude that both 'heart' and 'soul' are often synonymously identified throughout Scripture.
    But this remarkable thing must must become abundantly clear to us:the Hebrew word for 'spirit' ('ruach') is nowhere translated with 'heart'.The Old Testament does not equate the words 'heart' and 'spirit'. In the New Testament we find the same circumstance. The Greek word 'kardia' literally means: heart and this is how it is properly translated in all scriptural occurrences.

    It's quite striking that the Greek word for 'spirit' ('pneuma') is also nowhere translated as 'heart'.
    There is yet another word which is 'psyche' in Greek which literally means 'soul;. For instance, when Paul calls upon us to do the will of God from our heart, (Eph 6:6 & Col 3:23), the original text reads: psyche.
    Both the New and Old Testament Bible give a singular image of the inner-man, The words 'heart' and 'soul' are two words which together describe one concept.

    Concerning the words 'heart' and 'soul':
    In Luke 1:46 Mary says, “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior”. And again, David declares in Ps 9:1,“I will praise you, O Lord, with all my heart”.
    The resemblance is quite evident. We can also see the same in Ps 94:19 and Ps 39:3.
    The soul also points to something central. With the 'soul' is also meant, the core; the heart and the being of man. We often use the same phrase in daily usage example: 'soul' of the movement'. It has the obvious meaning of a central function. Therefore,heart and soul are practically synonymous throughout scripture.
    We could perhaps formulate it better this way: the Bible exclusively names the innermost being of a man as the heart which is the core of the human spirit ... which is the soul.

    You'll remember that I previously stated that the spirit and the soul of man together form his inner-man ... his spiritual body. As such, we can conclude that the spiritual heart of man is the heart of his spiritual body. It forms the core of the inner man which is the center of the spiritual body. In other words, the soul is hidden in the spiritual body. In other words: the soul forms the center, the innermost of the spirit. The soul is encompassed by the spirit like the heart is shrouded by the body. The soul is the core of the spirit, just like the stone is the kernel of the fruit.

    Man is a spirit-soul-body being. He is a person with both a spiritual and natural body which behaves as one ... undivided. He is one man, one person. With one being and one personality. Just as heaven is 'higher' than earth, the spiritual body is of a higher dimension than the natural body.

    The apostle Peter wrote, "Your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit", (1Peter 3:4). The "hidden man of the heart" indicates the hidden heart in man. It points to his innermost being: the soul which is the most essential portion of man. This core is ornamented in the spirit and is encompassed by the spirit.

    Having said all that, this question too needs to be answered:
    Where does the most essential part of being man ... his personality ... reside? Here too the Bible gives the answer: “Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life”, (Prov 4:23). Especially guard your heart, because it is the source of your life.
    So, the answer is: the personality of man resides in his heart; in his soul which is the innermost part of his spiritual body. It's from this most central point of man's being that life bubbles up. It's there where he develops thoughts and where he forms words. It is there where his feelings originate and where his faith, hope and love take root. There he makes choices, takes decisions and proceeds with actions. It is there where all his human faculties reside.
    it from within his heart that man digests all information coming from outside; including everything that he perceives with his senses in heaven and on earth. The heart of man is also decisive to his mentality, to his disposition and to his attitude. Also for the manner in which he acts and walks.

    Returning to angels for a moment:

    Angels are spiritual beings with a spiritual body. They have a spiritual heart and many spiritual faculties. God created them for an eternal existence in the heavenly spheres and equipped them to serve God and men. Every angel has his own, unique personality. This resides in his spiritual heart, the wellspring of his existence. At this point there is conformity between the spiritual body of an angel and the spiritual body of man.

    But I wish to name here a significant difference between man and the angels:
    With the word 'soul', Scripture points to the very essence of the being 'man'. Because of the fact that the spirit of man, at his core, exists of the soul, it is possible for man to connect the invisible/immaterial with the visible/material. In other words, the soul connects spirit with matter and unites the spirit with the body.
    Another way of saying this same thing would be: because the human spirit carries the soul in itself, the spiritual body of man has the ability to form an entity with the natural body. The spiritual body is able to function therein as 'neshama'.

    Angels cannot take on a material shape nor a natural body. They have no soul and therefore are not 'souls'. They are spirits, not men with flesh and bones, (Luke 24:39). It is the spiritual heart of man which is typically 'human'. It carries all faculties that man receives from His Creator. The soul is representative for being man. The word 'soul' therefore typifies more accurately the being of man than the word 'heart'.
    However, It is at this point that the spiritual heart (the soul) of men distinguishes itself from the spiritual heart of the angels. There is an additional distinction between man and angels: the spiritual body of man is able to grow and develop. God laid this unique ability in man's being at his creation. It is hidden in the wellspring of his life; in his spiritual heart, his soul. This is what characterizes the totality of being of man.
    Angels cannot grow. They have no soul. In their spiritual heart this ability is not present. This is because God created them for another purpose.

    The word 'soul' is representative of the most essential of the being man. It is also an indication for man as a whole as in these examples: The KJV translates 'nefesj' (soul, heart) 30 times with 'person', (Lev 27:2), 'man', (Gen 14:21). And 119 times with the word 'life', (Ps 31:14, Mark 8:37).
    Therefore, it's not strange that a certain number of people can often be said to be 'so many souls', (Ex 16:16). The word 'soul' shows a clear resemblance with the word 'being'.

    And now, after all the aforementioned we are finally getting to the heart of the matter.:
    The Bible is not vague or unclear about this point: God is Spirit, (John 4:24).
    The Old as well as the New Testament show God as a Person, as a Being. To put it in a better way: God is a name to address a person with a personality: the Most High, the One, the Eternal One, the Lord of everything that exists.
    We know: there is but One God: the Father, from Whom all things came and for Whom we live, (1Cor 8:6).

    At many places there are pronouncements, which point to the fact that God sees, God does, God hears. Nowhere the Scripture does it give reason to suspect that God is somehow 'impersonal'. God is the 'name' of a Spiritual Being. A number of texts speak about the mouth of the Lord, the arm of the Lord, His mighty right Hand. About His feet. About the eyes and ears of the Lord. Other texts make reference to the depths of God, to the heart of God. When we join these spiritual things all together, once again the image of a spiritual body arises.

    Does God resemble man and have a spiritual Body? Well, it's best to turn that around and say: God does not resemble man. Rather, God created man after His image. Instead, we should say that man resembles God.
    Because God is a person with a spiritual Body, man has a spiritual body. Because God has a spiritual Heart, man possesses this too. Man can speak, see, hear, because God can do this. This applies to all human faculties because they are derived from God's faculties.
    When creating man, God created a being who is identical to His own Being.

    This identity does not only concern the spiritual body of man. It also clearly shows a similarity with his natural body which is completely united with the spiritual body. It is from our material body that we can form an image of the immaterial body, (Gen 1:27).

    When John says that God is a Spirit, he does not mean that God is a spirit like all other spirits or that He is in the spiritual world on the same scale with the other spirits. God is the Person who carries everything and everyone, “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things”, (Rom 11:36). He is the beginning and the end of all that is. In this sense, God cannot be compared to any other being, (Isa 40:25). God is not a spirit like the angels are spirits. After all, God created the angels and, because of that, He rises far above the entire world of angels. As Creator, God stands above everything that He has called into existence in heaven and on earth. He is exceedingly elevated above all the work of His hands.

    Man has been created after the image of God. While there are clear similarities which can be pointed to between God and man, an infinite difference between the Creator and His creation will continue to exist for eternity. So, when we compare the spiritual body of God to the spiritual body of man, we first need to be convinced of that indisputable truth.

    The Bible speaks about the Spirit in many places and uses with it various expressions. God's Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Holy Spirit, Your Holy Spirit, His Holy Spirit, My Spirit, the Spirit of Your Father, the Spirit of Life, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Grace, the Spirit from God, the Spirit of Wisdom and of Revelation and so forth.

    The question that this discussion is addressing is whether these Bible verses are speaking about other Spirits and/or of different Persons? Or is it about One Person? In particular, many people are inclined to think of the Holy Spirit as a second Person next to God.

    Is the Holy Spirit also a God?
    Is there a difference then between God and God's Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit?
    Conversely, Is there also a difference then between me and my own human spirit?

    From the image of man in which the unity of spirit, soul and body clearly comes forward, we can get a clear view of God Himself, His Spirit. God's Spirit and the deep things of God, (1 Cor 2:10).

    I mentioned earlier that the heart, (soul) of man is veiled in and surrounded by his spirit. Together soul and spirit form the spiritual body, (inner man). The being of an angel is veiled in a similar way, hidden in that spirit. Therefore, we may speak about them as having a spiritual body.
    Concerning man, his spiritual body is connected to his natural body and functions in it as 'neshama', which distinguishes man from every other (spiritual) being.
    So it is that people are persons with both a spiritual and a natural body which are equipped to see, hear, speak and work, live and function simultaneously in both the visible and invisible worlds..
    God is a Spirit, a Person with a spiritual body by means of which He sees, hears, speaks, works, functions, manifests Himself, reveals Himself.

    The being of God, His heart, is also veiled in His Spirit, in God's Spirit.

    When God's powerful right hand supports, it is not an arm as such. God supports. When the Spirit of God is hovering over the waters, it is not merely the Spirit of God. God Himself rules over the waters.
    When the mouth of the Lord has spoken, who then has spoken?
    When the Spirit of the Lord is with me and in me, who then is with me and in me?
    When I am guided by the Holy Spirit, by whom then am I guided?
    When the Holy Spirit reveals something, who then reveals something?
    In all these expressions it is about God: God speaks, God is with me, God guides, God reveals.

    In the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the person 'God' dwells.. The being of God is veiled in the Spirit of God. It forms the heart, the central 'part' of that Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit is no (second) God, but an indication of God Himself: God is (a) Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the (spiritual) body of God, in which the heart of God is hidden.
    We may not separate the Holy Spirit from God Himself. Nor see Him as a separate person beside God.
    The Bible points to one spiritual Being in all occurring descriptions. To one person with a spiritual body. To God Himself.

    That spiritual body of God, His Spirit, is much greater and more expansive than we are able to imagine. This is why we are resigned to use frail parables to describe his infinite majesty and greatness.
    God surrounds heaven and earth. He bears everything that is; the immaterial and material, through His Spirit.
    We can only vaguely imagine God; His reality is inconceivable. He is elevated far beyond comprehension.
    I've only give you something of a parable here to give you some idea about the greatness of His being ... and how He remains as singularly ONE.
     
  16. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, GINOLJC.

    you hit the key, "Everything which remains invisible to the natural eye is mirrored in our visible world"

    Abstract, and Concrete. Subjective, and Objective.

    Pockets, consider this. Jesus the Christ is the visible, (concrete, the objective), image of the invisible, (the Subjective, the Abstract), Spirit in Flesh and Blood.

    and two you touch on many thing that we will discuss, I 'm Very much Look forward to this discussion. maybe this can touch on some of the thing you have said, for these are similar to your post, which I'm still digesting.

    Heads up, if you find any mispelling, or incorrect sentences, charges it to my head, and not my heart, thanks.


    I believe the point of contention is the Titles, "Father", and "Son". if the titles are the same person, then the confusion is in HOW THE ONE PERSON OPERATE IN BOTH TITLES AT THE SAME TIME. we know that the title "Father" belongs to the Spirit, who we encompass the name Holy Spirit. but how do the Holy Spirit encompass the title "Son", especially at the same time?. the answer for me can be found in the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the "same" God which worketh all in all". in these scriptures, it states that the Same Spirit, is the Same Lord. HOLD IT. we know from scriptures, that the Lord is Jesus the Christ, who is the (Son). the question should be asked, how is the SAME Spirit the Son?. my answer is in the word, "diversity". the prophet Isaiah 9:6 states a Child is born, and a son is given. here we have two transaction. a child is "born". this is according to the flesh of men or animals. we know this as the Son of God, or the outward man. supportive scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". so we know that the flesh of our Lord Jesus, the outward man is called the Son of God. note the cap"S" here in Son. now for the birth of that flesh.
    G1080 γεννάω gennao (ghen-nah'-o) v. "Born", or "begotten"
    1. (properly, of the father) to procreate
    2. (by extension, of the mother) to conceive
    3. (figuratively) to regenerate
    [from a variation of G1085]
    KJV: bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring
    Root(s): G1085
    but our Lord was begotten of the HOLY SPIRIT, and not man. supportive scripture, Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ". note, if one would read the the Whole genealogy of our Lord, all was "begat", by some man except our Lord Jesus. he was born, already begotten of the Holy Spirit. notice, in all my reference to the word God, I replaced it with the word Holy Spirit. so what was born, was not begotten of men, but only was born of a woman. so what was begotten was of the Holy Spirit, and that which was begotten of the Holy Spirit, became spirit. not another person, or another existence, or being, no, but a diversity. meaning the SAME as in a share. I'll clear up the words "diversity", and the word "Another", later. listen to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words concerning the word being,
    * When not part of another verb (usually the participle), or part of a phrase, this word translates one of the following:

    (a) the present participle of eimi, to be," the verb of ordinary existence;

    ( B) the participle of ginomai, "to become," signifying origin or result;

    (c) the present participle of huparcho, "to exist," which always involves a preexistent state, prior to the fact referred to, and a continuance of the state after the fact. Thus in Phil 2:6, the phrase "who being (huparchon) in the form of God," implies His preexistent Deity, previous to His birth, and His continued Deity afterwards.

    this can be brought out in John 1:1 in the word "WAS", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
    WAS, WAST, WERE, and WERT. * Note: When not part of another verb, or phrase, these translate eimi, "to be", or the following. (a) ginomai, "to become". ( B) huparcho, "to exist," especially when referring to an already existing condition.
    this definition of beget, begotten, bring forth, or born, applies only if one have a biological mother, and father to conceive in order to come into a NATURAL, or CARNAL existence. and this existence is from natural sources of flesh and blood. but our Lord, Jesus the Christ flesh was not conceive of a biological source. his flesh and blood was "made" by the Holy Spirit, and was Generated, or "BORN", of a woman. hence we have the Son of God/Son of the Spirit, spirit, flesh and blood, (a man). being in the likeness. Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. here the term, or word is G1096 γίνομαι ginomai, "MADE".
    G1096 γίνομαι ginomai (ghin'-om-ai) v.
    1. to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
    2. (reflexively) to become (come into being)
    {used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.)}
    [a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb]
    KJV: arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought
    The KJV can translate the word made as Be found, as in Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". "being found in the "fashion as a man". question, what was "as a man"?. the fashion, and what do the word fashion means, G4976 σχῆμα schema (skhay`-mah) n.
    1. a figure (as a mode or circumstance)
    2. (by implication) external condition
    [from the alternate of G2192]
    KJV: fashion
    Root(s): G2192
    the root word is G2192 ἔχω echo (ekh'-o) (including an alternate form scheo skheh'-o; (used in certain tenses only)) v.
    1. to hold (such as possession, ability, contiuity, relation, or condition)
    our bodies we possess in the world, or nature. now the question is, do we maintain them as vessel of righteousness, or vessel of unrighteousness. but thats another topic. lets continue.

    this Child, this flesh and blood was born, or sprang out of Judah, Hebrews 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood". important to note, this child sprang "out" of Judah, and not sprang "from" Judah. Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". our Lord was from heaven, and in the womb of the woman this conception generate blood in this conceive child, he was born, or sprang forth, and grew, and wax strong. our Lord was just like the first Adam, without an earthly, mother, or father. but he was "made" by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, for everything was made by the Spirit. but I thought, according to John's gospel, everything was MADE by him. YES, the Word, Jesus the Christ, that which became flesh. the EXPRESS IMAGE, of the true invisible, eternal, immortal Spirit. the HOLY SPIRIT. who "WAS". with the Spirit in the beginning, "THE WISDOM", of the SPIRIT. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". here the word God, I use as "Spirit". there are two powers of the Spirit, G1411, dunamis, (ABILITY), and ,G1849, exousia, (AUTHORITY). this exousia one will see in the Son. (as a side note: this is how I know that John the Baptist, and our Lord Jesus the Christ are the two witness, of Revelation 11). for they bot had, G1849, exousia, (AUTHORITY).

    now the "Son", which we know as the inner man, "the Son of man", so named of the Natural birth of flesh he was in, he is not born, as in according to the flesh. this birth is according to the Spirit. in our Lord case, the NEW MAN. he is not re-generated, like us. the word for this birth HERE is, "OFFSPRING".
    G1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os) n.
    1. kin
    {abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
    [from G1096]
    KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
    Root(s): G1096

    there he is, the "diversity.
    take note G1080 γεννάω gennao (ghen-nah'-o) v. is a birth cause "to be", according to the nature of the flesh & blood, (Carnal)
    G1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os) n. is a birth, cause "to become". either, abstract or concrete. specifying the KIND, or type of OFFSPRING. but it is identified as a CLASS, or GROUP, distinguished by a common character or nature in short a " Diversity".

    what is "a" Diversity, or the Diversities of the Holy Spirit/God?. a diversity is simply an EXPRESSION of the Source in "ANOTHER", or the "SHARE" Form of the same source. be it Spiritual (spirit), or Natural, (carnal). a Diversity, or the Diversities of the Holy Spirit is an offspring, in the same class, group, or sort which is a (nature) unto the source itself. when we say "ANOTHER", we means of the SAME nature, or Kind, or Class, of Group, be it Spiritual, or Carnal.

    the term "ANOTHER". according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
    G243, "allos" and G2087 "heteros" both these words have a difference in meaning in "ANOTHER". which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort, (sort here means NATURE);" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort. examples, " Christ promised to send "another Comforter" (allos, "another like Himself," not heteros), John 14:16. Paul says "I See a different ( "another") law," heteros", a law different from that of the spirit of life (not allos, "a law of the same sort"), Rom 7:23. Jesus the Christ is the Spirit (SHARED) NATURE in Flesh and Blood.

    question how do a diversity come into creation, or have BEING, or as we say existence?, by birth, either carnally, according to the flesh. and or Spiritually according to the Spirit. (a). carnally, according to the flesh, G1081 gennema, which means "to beget", to cause to be ("gen"-erate). denotes "the offspring of men and animals". (reflexively) to become (come into being). to be a partaker of flesh and blood. ( B). according to the Spirit. G1085, genos (akin to ginomai, "to become"). it denotes "an offspring", a race, family, NOT TO BECOME INTO EXISTENCE IN CREATION AS IN NATURAL BIRTH, but to become as or like the source, which means a "SHARE" of the source, or one having a "NEW EXISTENCE". as in Christ Jesus, having "ANOTHER" NATURE, (flesh and blood) but of the same SPIRITUAL SOURCE, according to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. as in G1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os), he christ, meaning being THE ONLY share in spirit, and in mind. for this new mind that was shape in righteousness. (see again Isaiah 50:4 & 5), which is the so-called missing years of Jesus. a Son is simply the same person who have the same #1. Nature, be it carnal, or Spiritual. and #2. who have the same character, or who have the same characteristics, who have the same behavior, or who have the same ways as the root or the source person who it sprang from. but a diversified offspring is one who have the G1081 gennema beginning, with the G1085, genos ending of God. Jesus beginning was Spirit in nature, as well as his ending, the Spiritual character HOLY, as he is called the HOLY ONE. (hence the beginning and the ending. beginning in one nature, and ending, WITH another new nature). sound just like John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with God. yes, in nature, being equal. but now have another nature according to the flesh. scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". this word "form", is the greek word,
    FORM: G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fay') n.
    1. shape
    2. (figuratively) nature
    [perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
    KJV: form
    Root(s): G3313
    what do the ROOT of this word mean?.
    G3313 μέρος meros (mer'-os) n.
    1. a division or share
    THERE HE IS, not are in this case. THE "SHARE", the Lord Jesus the Christ, is the diversity or the "ONLY" BEGOTTEN" of the Spirit "NATURE" meaning the same, but diversified. and he "took part", in our NATURE, meaning the SAME ONE Spirit, diversified, in "ANOTHER" FORM. hence Flesh and blood. so this share, this diversity "became" something, "a man". a Manifestation of the Spirit. supportive scripture, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". that which was invisible was "MADE" visible by the flesh. so to be born again Spiritually is to have a change of mind. is this scriptural, yes, Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". HOLD IT. the apostle Paul have just told us that there are two transformation. 1. of the body, which we witness of our Lord Jesus the Christ, when he transformed physically on the mount of transfiguration. this is the Greek word G3339, metamorphoo, which means to change into another form" (meta, implying change, and morphe, "form"). and he transform his mind by being taught the word of God, the Spirit. Now, Now we can understand clearly why Nicodemus asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?". the answer to that question, our Lord Jesus gives clearly. the birth he was talking about was not a natural birth, according to the flesh. but the renewing of our minds. being transform in character, and moral characteristics, resulting in a new behavior, or walk in life. meaning being "HOLY", scripture 1 Peter 1:15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy". and when you receive the spirit of of God, the Holy Spirit you become, "regenerated", or born (G1096 γίνομαι "ginomai") again, in the newness of mind, and life. simply put, what do a new covenant mean" a renewing of our behavior with the true Spirit.


    to do what is, as the apostle Paul said, "therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service". hence, we become "SONS". scripture, Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". supportive scripture, John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name". this is what a "son" is. not according to the flesh, (son), but according to the Spirit, the characteristics of the Spirit, the manifestion of Holiness, "Holy". from which we get the term, "HOLY SPIRIT". meaning God the Spirit, his character is "HOLY". but until the redemption (change) of this corruptible body, (the flesh), we're subject to this creation. that why we must be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". now we can clearly see that our Lord Jesus was teaching Nicodemus, "Diversity", according to the Spirit. That's why our Lords and Saviour Jesus the Christ is the "Son"........ of God according to the FLESH. for his flesh was G1081, gennema, begotten "of" God. and the "Son" of man According to the SPIRIT. because his thoughts, his ways, his character, and his moral characteristics was G1085, genos, begotten "of" God, because God manifested his will, his ways, his thoughts, his mind in Christ. sa one say the plan, so the scripture is clear, "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. how was God manifested?. by doing his own will, in action, (FAITH).
    how do one become a son of God?, not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. for if ye walk after the flesh, (meaning a lifestyle) ye will die. but after the Spirit ye will live. being born again, from above. not from your mother's womb again, but by the word of God, the Holy Spirit. is not Jesus the Christ the word, (see John 1:1). our Lord have just told us who he is, GOD, the Holy Spirit in flesh, scripture, John 6:48 "I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". here our Lord Jesus have just told us again who he is, verse 48, "I am", that's good enough right there, "I AM THAT I AM". but after that identification, he makes it plain. "that bread of life". scripture, Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God". and Matthews makes its crystal clear. Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God". did not our Lord said, John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". question, who mouth did this proceed from?. you make the call. once again Jesus have told us who he is, GOD, the Holy Spirit in flesh. and 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". again the "Word" is a title held by our Lord Jesus, (God/Spirit in Flesh). so we plainly can see that "Father", "Word", and "Holy Spirit", are titles of the SAME PERSON, just as the prophet, Isaiah, by God said, (see Isaiah 9:6). now getting to "HIS" function, or as the scriptures states, HIS "OPERATIONS". scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all". THERE IT IS, THE "SAME" GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL. that have diversities of operations. that God, as our Lord said in, John 6:48 "I am that bread of life". yes that God is the that "Lord", and that Lord is, or have, three dispensation to his work. 1st. dispensation, "Spirit", Creator, and Maker, hence (FATHER) Genesis 1:1. 2nd. dispensation "Spirit" in Flesh and Blood, Redeemer, and Saviour, hence (SON) John 1:1. 3rd. dispensation, "Spirit" in Glorified Flesh, no blood, Mediator, and Comforter, hence (HOLY SPIRIT), FULLY REVEALED Revelation 1:1. lets prove this full revealing out.
    in Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". when one read this passage, it seem like its two person involved, correct. and in the preface at verse 4 this, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood".

    when one read these passage, it seem like its three person involved, correct, well wrong. lets look a little closer.
    according to most trinitarians
    1. verse 4a. "and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come". they say this is the Father.
    2. verse 4b. "and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne". surely this must be the HOLY SPIRIT.
    3. verse 5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood". no doubt, or no brainier, this is the Son, correct. well lets really see.

    The connecting "Key". the Alpha and Omega
    #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".
    so the "Almighty" is the Alpha and Omega, correct?. and he is the "which is, and which was, and which is to come" the "Almighty". this is the Father, right.

    #2. Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".
    most trinitarians would say, surely said this is the "Son", because he who died and rose is the Son, right?. go to Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". here the almighty said that he is the First and the Last. and right here in Revelation proves it out. who feet did John fall at?. go back to verses 10 & 11. Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea". Hmmmmmmm seems like the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega, and the Alpha and Omega is the SAME Lord in Revelation 1:8 who is the "Almighty".

    #3. what about the him which is, and which was, and which is to come?. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned". so he which is, and which was, and which is to come is the
    "Lord", and the Lord is the Almighty in Revelation 1:8., so the which is, and which was, and which is to come is also which is the First and the
    Last in 1:17 & 19. THE SAME PERSON. and the last scripture that put the icing on the cake. Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. so the titles Father, Son, and Word, is the Holy Spirit, which is the same Person, not persons.

    the conclusion, the Spirit that moved over the waters, and made everything is the manifestation of the man we know as Jesus the Christ, who is Lord, and he is God Manifested in Flesh, GLORIFIED.

    I'm still going over your post.


    Love and peace
    101G.
     
  17. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'Episkopos'
    You wrote: "Jesus created the world'.
    I have a question please: Doesn't the Bible specifically say "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God".
    I'm assuming that your claim is that the Word is synonymous with and/or an alternative name for Jesus.
    Example: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God"
    Would I be correct with this assumption?
     
  18. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    That Jesus is an angel (Greek aggelos, meaning "messenger") can be seen from what the apostle Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 10. Here, Paul says that "our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea (Red Sea in 1513 B.C.E.) and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ."(1 Cor 10:1-4)

    At Exodus 14, it says that "the angel of the true God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them.So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel.....Moses now stretched his hand out over the sea; and Jehovah began making the sea go back by a strong east wind all night long."(Ex 14:19-21)

    Hence, the angel that later came to be called Jesus Christ, was the one who followed the nation of Israel during their 40 year trek in the wilderness, speaking for Jehovah God (as his chief spokesman, John 1:1, 2) and performing miraculous signs for them.

    And at Hebrews 1, it does not say that angels worshiped Jesus, but that the angels did "obeisance" to him as one worthy of honor.(Heb 1:4, 6) The Greek word used at verse 6 is proskyneo and can mean "to do homage or make obeisance."(Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 548, in the aorist tense)

    Only in the absolute sense does the Greek word proskyneo mean "worship" and which is applied only to Jehovah God, and of which Jesus established that he too worships him, telling the Samaritan woman: "You worship (proskyneo) what you do not know; we worship (proskyneo, Jesus including himself in worshiping the Father ) what we know.....the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father (not the Son) with spirit and truth."(John 4:22, 23)
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    MTPockets, GINOLJC
    in your respond to Episkopos, may I add.

    I have a question please: Doesn't the Bible specifically say "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God".
    I'm assuming that your claim is that the Word is synonymous with and/or an alternative name for Jesus.
    Example: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God"
    Would I be correct with this assumption? Example: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God"
    Would I be correct with this assumption?


    your assumption would be correct, but the analogy may be in error. its in the name you used. JESUS, that personal name had not been given, yet. yes JESUS created the worlds, visible, as well as the invisible. but without flesh and blood. which entails the title, Christ. Christ is the title of the Spirit work in flesh and blood. for the flesh and blood was not yet manifested. hence the three dispensation, or administration of the Spirit which I have already mention. in the Spirit 1st, dispensation, or administration, the Spirit is "CREATOR", and "MAKER", of all things. and in his second, dispensation, or administration, the Spirit in flesh and Blood, he's, "REDEEMER", and "SAVIOUR" hence the title the Christ or messiah. so the assumption is correct, but the analogy may be in error.

    Love and Peace
    101G
     
  20. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    John 1:1 is the old standby for those who accept the trinity as taught by the churches of Christendom. Because Koine Greek does not have an indefinite article such as "a", the translators must determine whether or not it belongs in a certain Scripture.

    For example, at Acts 12:22, the King James Bible reads concerning Herod: "And the people gave a shout, saying, it is the voice of a god, and not of a man." Here there no indefinite article (just as with "man"), but the translators place an "a" before "god" (and "man").

    And at Acts 28:6 in the King James Bible, after the people of Malta saw the apostle Paul bitten by a viper but did not die, "said that he was a god." Again, the translators add an "a" to "god" when there is not one. Why did they not just render both as saying that Herod and Paul were "God" ?

    Simply put, because they recognized that neither Herod nor Paul were God, but were considered as "a god" before the people. This sheds light on John 1:1, whereby Jesus is spoken of as "the Word", with John using the definite Greek article "ho" ("the" in English) all three times at verses 1 and 2.

    Yet of "God", the apostle John used the definite article only twice out the three times that the Greek word theos (god) is used, in the 1st and 3rd instance, but not in the 2nd. Why ? Because John was presenting "the Word" (Jesus) as being not "God", but as "a god". How can this be known ?

    Because at John 1:18, it says: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him." This lends weight toward the rendering: "And the Word was a god."(John 1:1b, New World Translation)

    John further said that "No man has seen God at any time."("at any time", Greek popote, meaning "ever, at any time", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 559) Hence, with no man ever having seen God and that Jesus is called "the only-begotten god" ("only-begotten", Greek monogenes, meaning "only generated", also "single of its kind, only", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 417) establishes that John 1:1 reads that "the Word was a god".

    But there is more. There has been found an ancient manuscript in Sahidic Coptic of John 1:1, 2, that uses an indefinite article as in English. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. The Anchor Bible Dictionary says regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible: "Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."

    Because Sahidic Coptic reflects an understanding of Scripture that dates before the 4th century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine and because Sahidic Coptic has grammar close to that of English, it provides a basis for rendering that "the Word was a god". Scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, wrote that "the use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English."

    How does the Sahidic Coptic render John 1:1, 2 ? "In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word."(P. Chester Beatty -813, located in Dublin, Ireland)

    And Jehovah's Witnesses observe the memorial of Jesus death on Nisan 14 every year, being the 1st full moon after the spring equinox.
     
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