True Human Being?

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Jodi

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Hi DNB,

Thanks for reading my post and replying. I am really enjoying this conversation and seeing how it is you understand things and comparing it to mine.

Great site of scripture, where Jesus said "forgive them for they know not what they do!" That makes me think also of a number of scriptures in OT where the punishment is different for those who sinned out of ignorance not knowing the law.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God knew Adam and Eve would sin, He knew they were incapable of keeping the commandment. Such is why God promised grace by Jesus Christ before the world even began. The plan for a savior to come who would be slain for our sins was established by God before the world was.

YOU:
But, it was not impossible for Adam & Eve to obey, that would be entirely ludicrous and unjust on God's part. For, this was the whole point of Christ, and why that he is called the 2nd Adam. Both Adam & Jesus had an equal playing field, Adam disobeyed and Christ obeyed.

ME:
I don't see them as having the same playing field. In Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61, Jesus was the only mortal to have received God's glory, the only man to receive the Spirit of God not by measure, he was called to righteousness where God held his hand and kept him, he did not sin, he did not follow his own will, but that of God's as God was directing all his ways. Adam and Eve followed their own will as that is all God gave them besides the commandment. God was not holding their hand and keeping them from sin, they weren't called to righteousness having God direct all their ways.

Jesus is said to have been PERFECTED through suffering where he LEARNED OBEDIENCE going to the cross. Jesus was tempted just like we all are tempted, he did not sin because God was with him directing all his ways. He overcame temptation because the power of God's Spirit was a stronger influence over him than that of his own carnal mind that wanted him to obey his weak mortal flesh and serve the flesh in order to live. Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh" and he was able to do it through God directing all his ways, through God's Spirit resting upon him and influencing him.

Yes God created man in His own image, and God also declared the END from the Beginning. We are told that we are to be made into the image of His Son, and the Son is identified as the firstborn of the dead of many brethren (Romans 8). Jesus learned obedience and was perfected, died, and then was raised receiving eternal life, that which God had promised unto man before the world was, he received it first, and then he was given authority to give it unto others. He had a weak mortal body but he went to his death having displayed an ultimate act of FAITH in God. No doubt he believed in God's Word concerning himself from 1 Chronicles 17, Isaiah 53, Psalm 8 and 89.

Adam and Eve did not have a weak mortal body when they sinned, but they were ignorant and through such they only knew to follow their own will, and thus they had a lack of faith that led them to their sin.

Jesus however was born with a weak mortal body but he grew as a child with God's grace upon him where he was strengthened in his spirit and was being filled with wisdom. He then at around the age of 30 had the Spirit descend upon him like a dove where he left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit, filled without measure, having been called to righteousness to have God direct all his ways, this was called an ANOINTING where he was Chrio made into the Christos, and God then SENT him out into the world. Jesus quotes this fulfilled word of God having been made true in his flesh in Luke for 4 where the purpose was for him to go out into the world and preach God's word, heal, deliver captives from darkness, be for a light. Fulfill all of God's will.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The operation of God is faith that God perfects us as He perfected Jesus, we are raised to be heirs of God joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8), who was perfected having had the fullness of God's anointing Spirit upon him. Also as said in Romans 8, the Spirit is a witness to our Spirit that we are children of God, and those that are LED/influenced by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
 

Jodi

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Hi DNB,

YOU:Your analogy about choice was not accurate, for free will can obviously override taste buds, desires, inclinations or propensities. I can be enticed to eat something that I don't typically like, because I'm told that it's either spiced differently, or that it's good for me, etc.. I can be talked out of dating a girl that my friends think is wrong for me, or buying a car, or travelling here or there, despite how strong my passion is to make the wrong choice. Reason can always override one's desires or inclinations, it happens everyday.

ME: So you didn't actually disprove me at all but actually you gave further example to exactly what my point is. I know if you haven't really thought about it in this perspective it can take awhile to wrap your head around it.

What you did was give examples of you being influenced. Your will is a product of influences, so thus not a product of freedom. When you go to make a decision and you are reasoning, that reasoning comes from influences. Did you ask for your friends advice, maybe they gave it to you though you didn't want to hear it, did you have control over their advice and tell them what their advice should be that they should then tell you? No of course not.But whether you asked for it or not you received it and it impacted your decision, that's not freedom, that is being dependent upon influences.

If you are making decisions based on influences, where many of those influences you didn't have control over, that's not freedom, that's not you making a decision based on freedom. Yes you are given the freedom to make the choice, but the choice is dependent upon factors, you just gave an example of a factor/an influence that you weighed in on that affected your choice. If something is affecting your decision then that decision isn't made out of freedom.

God is all knowing, He knows what our will comes out from. He can see our hearts and minds, He sees what we have received and what we have not, of which affects our decisions.

You're a child who was raised being abused and neglected. Your a son of a single parent mom who is a drug addict and teaches you to steal items from the store at the age of 4. Not only were you born drug affected and suffer developmental delay this is exacerbated by the amount of abuse and neglect you suffer. You've witnessed domestic violence, you've gone without food for days. Once when you were 3 you were strapped in a car seat where you couldn't get out and left there alone for two days (TRUE STORY of a child in my caseload) you continue to grow up where all you know is a life of thieves and drugs.

So it doesn't matter what our life experiences are, or that which has influenced us, or what we have been exposed to, because we all have a so called "FREE WILL" and because God gave us all a "FREE WILL" that puts us all on an equal playing field? Is that what you think, because if so I would strongly disagree.
 
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DNB

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Thank you Jodi, likewise!
God knew Adam and Eve would sin, He knew they were incapable of keeping the commandment. Such is why God promised grace by Jesus Christ before the world even began. The plan for a savior to come who would be slain for our sins was established by God before the world was.

Yes, but God knew this, not by design, but by foreknowledge. Just like a parent might know their children, better than the children knows themselves (we all know people that we know in this way, they say one thing, but we know what they'll actually do). God anticipated Adam's moves, not because Adam was compelled to act that way, but because God knew him so well. Just as Jesus knew before hand that the other 11 apostles would disown him. Not because God forced this upon them, but Jesus knew their fear and lack of faith.
For, I cannot see what point that God would be trying to make, by giving Adam a command that, inherently, he couldn't possibly obey. Knowing what one will do in a given situation, is very different than forcing him to do it. i.e. God does not ask a man with a broken leg to win a race, or die. God would only ask someone to do something, if it were possible in the first (God does not tempt us beyond our ability, but gives us the means to escape).

I don't see them as having the same playing field. In Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61, Jesus was the only mortal to have received God's glory, the only man to receive the Spirit of God not by measure, he was called to righteousness where God held his hand and kept him, he did not sin, he did not follow his own will, but that of God's as God was directing all his ways. Adam and Eve followed their own will as that is all God gave them besides the commandment. God was not holding their hand and keeping them from sin, they weren't called to righteousness having God direct all their ways.
David had the spirit, Elijah had the spirit, and Elisha twice as that of Elijah. The key to Christ's perfection, to his exaltation, and to our reverence of him, is the fact that he loved God with all his heart & soul, and equally us. All men have failed in this. But failure is not counted, when the possibility is not there. My shame before Jesus, and my awe of him, stems from this sole fact. That, we both were able to love, but I chose selfishness, and Jesus knew who his maker was. It was with many prayers and tears that Christ supplicated God (Hebrews 5:7), Jesus was not given a silver spoon in his mouth. And yet, you keep saying that God held his hand? Yes, upon his baptism, the spirit endowed him with power & wisdom, but that comes with faith and humility, just as Cornelius's household received the same upon hearing the Word of God (to each as his faith permits Romans 12:6).

He overcame temptation because the power of God's Spirit was a stronger influence over him than that of his own carnal mind that wanted him to obey his weak mortal flesh and serve the flesh in order to live. Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh" and he was able to do it through God directing all his ways, through God's Spirit resting upon him and influencing him.
God's spirit is available to all, according to their faith.

Jesus learned obedience and was perfected, died, and then was raised receiving eternal life, that which God had promised unto man before the world was, he received it first, and then he was given authority to give it unto others. He had a weak mortal body but he went to his death having displayed an ultimate act of FAITH in God. No doubt he believed in God's Word concerning himself from 1 Chronicles 17, Isaiah 53, Psalm 8 and 89.
You make it sound like God, without rhyme or reason, threw a curve-ball to man, punished him for something that he couldn't help, just to emphasize something to him that he couldn't have known on his own??? It's the other way around, Adam knew exactly who his maker was, he knew exactly that God created all things, for Adam was given to name all the creatures, and he saw Eve come from his own rib. Adam had everything reason to love God as Jesus did, for he knew exactly the omnipotence and supremacy of God, he witnessed it all first-hand.
Thus, thus is not true.
Adam and Eve did not have a weak mortal body when they sinned, but they were ignorant and through such they only knew to follow their own will, and thus they had a lack of faith that led them to their sin.
For again, what could they possibly be ignorant of? They walked with God and spoke directly to him. They heard his beautiful voice, saw his amazing creation, witnessed his power and love. They knew 1,000 times more than any other human that ever lived. Yes, Christ read the scriptures and he knew that they were speaking of him. I'm sure that his mother told him about the miraculous circumstance of his birth, and her annunciation, and her cousin Elizabeth's child, and Simeon's & Anna's testimony.
It's all about the heart of Adam, versus the heart of Jesus.
 

DNB

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Hi DNB,

YOU:Your analogy about choice was not accurate, for free will can obviously override taste buds, desires, inclinations or propensities. I can be enticed to eat something that I don't typically like, because I'm told that it's either spiced differently, or that it's good for me, etc.. I can be talked out of dating a girl that my friends think is wrong for me, or buying a car, or travelling here or there, despite how strong my passion is to make the wrong choice. Reason can always override one's desires or inclinations, it happens everyday.

ME: So you didn't actually disprove me at all but actually you gave further example to exactly what my point is. I know if you haven't really thought about it in this perspective it can take awhile to wrap your head around it.

What you did was give examples of you being influenced. Your will is a product of influences, so thus not a product of freedom. When you go to make a decision and you are reasoning, that reasoning comes from influences. Did you ask for your friends advice, maybe they gave it to you though you didn't want to hear it, did you have control over their advice and tell them what their advice should be that they should then tell you? No of course not.But whether you asked for it or not you received it and it impacted your decision, that's not freedom, that is being dependent upon influences.

If you are making decisions based on influences, where many of those influences you didn't have control over, that's not freedom, that's not you making a decision based on freedom. Yes you are given the freedom to make the choice, but the choice is dependent upon factors, you just gave an example of a factor/an influence that you weighed in on that affected your choice. If something is affecting your decision then that decision isn't made out of freedom.

God is all knowing, He knows what our will comes out from. He can see our hearts and minds, He sees what we have received and what we have not, of which affects our decisions.

You're a child who was raised being abused and neglected. Your a son of a single parent mom who is a drug addict and teaches you to steal items from the store at the age of 4. Not only were you born drug affected and suffer developmental delay this is exacerbated by the amount of abuse and neglect you suffer. You've witnessed domestic violence, you've gone without food for days. Once when you were 3 you were strapped in a car seat where you couldn't get out and left there alone for two days (TRUE STORY of a child in my caseload) you continue to grow up where all you know is a life of thieves and drugs.

So it doesn't matter what our life experiences are, or that which has influenced us, or what we have been exposed to, because we all have a so called "FREE WILL" and because God gave us all a "FREE WILL" that puts us all on an equal playing field? Is that what you think, because if so I would strongly disagree.
Yes, that is what I believe, they all have free will.
Jodi, I'm sorry, you are speaking so philosophically that you're leaving no definition available now for what free-will actually is?
For example, explain what situation would allow for true, unadulterated free will?
What you described about people being raised in different environments, and thus, having a very biased or distorted perspective about options, desires and beliefs, does not address man's free will to know that God exists (they are without excuse Romans 1:20), and to love him accordingly.
 

Jodi

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Hi Dave,

You: God would only ask someone to do something, if it were possible in the first

ME: I see where you are coming from and how such would appear to be quite reasonable, but that is not what Paul teaches us from my understanding, nor is such true in my experience working with young children.

I believe that God gives commandments to teach us what goodness is, what righteousness is, not because God is asking us to do something that He thinks we of our own selves are capable of doing.

The law is God's righteousness, something to obtain from God, not something that comes for our own selves.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Consider that the law is equated to God's righteousness, and as we are not God, righteousness is not in us by our nature, it is something for us to obtain, so we don't live a lie and think it comes from us, but for us to come to know the source of righteousness is of God alone.

God gave the law/that which is righteousness, of which He is the source of, so that we would know who we are as opposed to who God is. God doesn't give us laws expecting us to be able of our own selves to keep them, He gave it so that we would know that we are creatures that can do nothing of ourselves and we NEED GOD.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;..23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Adam and Eve were flesh too, they didn't have weak flesh, but they were still of flesh and thus they had a carnal mind, by such they were not capable of keeping God's law through their own will.

The carnal mind of a human on it's own without God is no different than that of an animal, it's like a serpent, it's deaf and blind to God's righteousness. But God made us to be made into His image, He made us capable of learning from Him and knowing Him and what He is the source of. Unlike animals we were given an imagination, higher intelligence, where we can invent what we think the truth is, so left alone in our ignorance all we will create are lies and superstitions.

I will tell you right now being in the business of early childhood education that social emotional intelligence is something that is to be LEARNED it is not something that just comes naturally. We establish expectations and give consequences for instructional purposes. You give the rule/law not because it is something you know they are capable of following, you give it because it's an expectation you know that they can achieve through you teaching and guiding them.

 

Jodi

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Hi DNB,

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

The Israelties were set free after God brought forth all the plagues unto Egypt, after God departed the the sea, after God provided miracle after miracle, they still didn't believe. While Moses was acquiring the 10 commandments he came down to find them having made a golden calf and worshiping it, where they changed the image of the eternal God into the image of a four footed beast, Gosh they were so stupid, vein in their own imaginations! They glorified their Savior not, they were not thankful, they actually were fearful of their future, so much that at one point they even told Moses they should have stayed in Egypt under Pharaoh's authority believing that they would have been better off. This pattern of obedience and idolatry continued.

So Paul speaks at how God gave the disobedient Israelites up to "a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness".

But Paul ALSO TELLS US,

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in O see, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. ..25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 

DNB

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I believe that God gives commandments to teach us what goodness is, what righteousness is, not because God is asking us to do something that He thinks we of our own selves are capable of doing.
But the two go hand in hand. One cannot be expected to comprehend something, that he hasn't the faculties to apply or act upon. In other words, there is no guilt or shame therefore, and thus, there's no need to repent. For, what in the world could we possibly, and sincerely, repent of? I won't say sorry for something that was beyond my ability to avoid, that would be misleading and not do anyone any good.
The law is God's righteousness, something to obtain from God, not something that comes for our own selves.
Consider that the law is equated to God's righteousness, and as we are not God, righteousness is not in us by our nature, it is something for us to obtain, so we don't live a lie and think it comes from us, but for us to come to know the source of righteousness is of God alone.
The Law is not God's righteousness in that sense. For, where there is law, there is guilt. The Law is made only for law breakers, it is not necessary in a righteous realm. So the law does not define God in the way that you are using it (Romans 4:15), Law is only implemented in an imperfect world.
God gave the law/that which is righteousness, of which He is the source of, so that we would know who we are as opposed to who God is. God doesn't give us laws expecting us to be able of our own selves to keep them, He gave it so that we would know that we are creatures that can do nothing of ourselves and we NEED GOD.
The law was given so that sin may abound, and that mercy may be applied.

Adam and Eve were flesh too, they didn't have weak flesh, but they were still of flesh and thus they had a carnal mind, by such they were not capable of keeping God's law through their own will.
The carnal mind of a human on it's own without God is no different than that of an animal, it's like a serpent, it's deaf and blind to God's righteousness.
But God made us to be made into His image, He made us capable of learning from Him and knowing Him and what He is the source of. Unlike animals we were given an imagination, higher intelligence, where we can invent what we think the truth is, so left alone in our ignorance all we will create are lies and superstitions.
The image of God is not intelligence, as you just described, for even a dog has that. The image of God is a spiritual awareness, for even the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do what is right in their hearts.
I will tell you right now being in the business of early childhood education that social emotional intelligence is something that is to be LEARNED it is not something that just comes naturally. You give the rule/law not because it is something you know they are capable of following, you give it because it's an expectation you know that they can achieve through you teaching and guiding them.
Kids do both naturally. The cry when Bambi or Nemo dies, the give hugs gratuitously, they don't judge by race or status. Their nice to their friends, and eager to talk to strangers (too eager). It goes both ways with children, does it not?
 

DNB

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The Israelties were set free after God brought forth all the plagues unto Egypt, after God departed the the sea, after God provided miracle after miracle, they still didn't believe. While Moses was acquiring the 10 commandments he came down to find them having made a golden calf and worshiping it, where they changed the image of the eternal God into the image of a four footed beast, Gosh they were so stupid, vein in their own imaginations! They glorified their Savior not, they were not thankful, they actually were fearful of their future, so much that at one point they even told Moses they should have stayed in Egypt under Pharaoh's authority believing that they would have been better off. This pattern of obedience and idolatry continued.
So Paul speaks at how God gave the disobedient Israelites up to "a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness".
Clearly this was not ALL Israelites. Yes, many are called, few are chosen. The majority of people, throughout history, were bad. Only a remnant will be saved. Noah was good, despite all others being bad. Many Israelites in the camp of Moses were good, as in Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb, those that did not join Korah in his rebellion, etc.. Not a lot, as far as we know, but enough to negate your point. There were moments of sin, but many moments of good also.
Human's are neutral, and have free will. God wants man to find him by their own accord. Possessing people to do good, serves what purpose, proves what point? Why did some angels rebel, and others not?