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True Israel is Alive and Well.

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by ActionJackson, Nov 1, 2008.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The ones who really hate the ten lost tribes Message from God's Word are those who would try to usurp the Blessings and Promises He has given to them.

    All nations want to be the rightful heirs of Abraham, but God proclaimed that the Promise would specifically go through the seed of Isaac. After our Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion, it was then revealed that God's Birthright Blessing and Promises ORIGINALLY given ONLY to the seed of Israel, would ALSO be upon the believing Gentiles joined with the believing remnant of the seed of Israel (Romans 9-11).

    Apostle Paul in the Book of Romans quotes the Book of Hosea about Christ's Salvation, and the gathering of the people to Him in final (second coming) when preaching to the Gentiles. The Book of Hosea is especially about the ten tribes of the "house of Israel", but Paul revealed that gathering of the ten tribes under Ephraim will include the believing Gentiles with the ten tribes.

    The attempted gathering of Jews to Jerusalem and the state of Israel today is NOT the second coming gathering by Christ at His return. Instead, it is a vain attempt to establish God's Israel again in the holy lands to exclude the majority of His people Israel that were scattered to the West after their Assyrian captivity.

    The majority of the unbelievers of the "house of Judah" (Jews) are blinded to this; thus God is going to send them a false messiah to Jerusalem coming in his own name that they will accept, since they have rejected The True Son of Promise.
     
  2. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    The Old Testament promise that a Savior would come out of David seed and David was of the tribe of Judah, which God separated from the house of Israel. Under the New Covenant its not about a physical descendant of Abraham but being a descendant of Abraham through faith. Remember that Jesus told the pharisees in His day that said they were children of Abraham, but Jesus told them that there father was Satan because if Abraham was there father they would do the works of Abraham.

    The Old Covenant was very limited because they as a whole were only promise physical blessings with a limited territory. But under the New Covenant the blessings are unlimited and the territory includes all things, which also includes ruling with Jesus when He returns to the Earth. So the Old Covenant is obsolete and inferior to the New.
     
  3. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    The Nation of Israel has been reborn as God foretold LONG ago. Jesus will return to Jerusalem just as He said He would. Have you not read Zech 14 or Acts 1?
     
  4. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    The Jews must repent of there sins and accept Jesus the same way we did.........God does not make any exception for anyone since God is not a respecter of persons.

    Acts 10:34-35 (ASV)
    [sup]34 [/sup]And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    [sup]35 [/sup]but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.



    Under the New Covenant God's chosen people is the Church.


    1 Peter 2:9-10 (Darby)
    [sup]9 [/sup]But ye [are] a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a possession, that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light;
    [sup]10 [/sup]who once [were] not a people, but now God's people; who were not enjoying mercy, but now have found mercy.
     
  5. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    I repeat! Have you not read Zech 14 and Acts 1? The Nation of Israel is God's chosen. Why do you think Jesus will return to Jerusalem???
     
  6. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    I have shown you the scripture that under the New Covenant God's chosen people is the Church. And Israelite under the Old Covenant was God's chosen people........but the Old Covenant is no longer valid because it was replaced by the New Covenant by the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus will return to that place because that is where Christians will rule with Jesus over the entire world........it is the same place where the New City of God will come down out of Heaven, when God will make all things new.
     
  7. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    If you think I'm preaching Old Covenant stuff, then you clearly have not read all of God's Word. Many's understanding is limited to just Scripture that is popularly taught in today's Churches, and that's all. Ministers in today's Church are taught to not go into any Bible topic and Scripture that might seem controversial. The Bible history about the ten lost tribes is one of them, which is why there's so many Christian brethren that are ignorant about it, along with many other Bible topics because they don't study all of God's Word for theirselves.

    Per Apostle Paul in Romans 11:1-5, he showed that God did not forget His people of literal Israel whom He did foreknow. He spoke of a group of flesh Israelites whom God had preserved, called a remnant according to the election of grace. That remnant is about the ten lost tribes that God removed captive to Assyria, and then they migrated westward into the lands of Europe, and became the founders of the western Christian nations, fulfilling the prophecy given to Ephraim that he would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). This is why God's Birthright Promises He gave to the seed of Israel are now found in the West with Christ's Church, and not in the holy lands of promise among the small remnant of the house of Judah.

    In Romans 9, Apostle Paul also taught that those of Faith like Abraham's Faith are now 'counted' for the seed of the Promise in Isaac. That's where believing Gentiles come in, because it means Christ's Church now is God's Israel, as believing Gentiles are graffed in with the believers of the seed of Israel and inherit the promises with them.

    Nowhere did Christ and His Apostles teach that the seed of Israel that 'believe' no longer have God's Promises which He gave them back in OT history. As a matter of fact, Apostle Paul preaches the idea in Ephesians 2 to include the believing Gentiles, when he spoke of Gentile believers who were once strangers to the covenants of promise becoming 'nigh' (near) to those Promises through Christ Jesus, and no longer being aliens from the "commonwealth of Israel" (Eph.2). Those "covenants of promise" Apostle Paul mentioned are not about the Old Covenant.

    That's where many make huge mistakes with thinking everything God promised to Israel back in the OT has to mean a connection with the Old Covenant. Paul shows different, that those "covenants of promise" the believing Gentiles are now also under per The New Covenant Jesus Christ. It's about Christ's Church now. The commonwealth idea is about many peoples and nations joined as Christ's many membered Body.

    Apostle Paul in Romans 9-11 also points back to the Books of Isaiah and Hosea about those promises to include the believing Gentiles. Sadly, many haven't gone back to Isaiah and Hosea to discover what that's about involving Christ's Church and the covenants of promise per The New Covenant. EVERY Scripture in the OT Books that speaks of Israel's gathering in final with the Gentiles is about Christ's Church and The New Covenant! God's promise in Ezekiel 37 of joining the two sticks (houses) of Israel back into one stick to the lands He promised their fathers and put under One Head (Christ) is a New Covenant matter, not an Old Covenant matter.

    The Ezekiel temple of Ezek.40-48, layout of the 12 tribes of Israel back to their land divisions per Ezek.47-48, the tree of life manifested next to the River of the waters of life originating from the Sanctuary flowing to heal waters per Ezek.47 is a New Covenant matter, not an Old Covenant matter. The enlarging of the symbolic tent at Jerusalem to include the believing Gentiles per Isaiah 54 is a New Covenant matter, not an Old Covenant matter. I could literally keep this going all day with all the New Covenant matters written in the Old Testament Books that have yet to come to pass!

    Our Lord Jesus taught this also, in the parable of the husbandmen and vineyard in Matt.21, when He said His vineyard would be taken from the unbelieving Jews at Jerusalem and given to another "nation" that would bring forth its fruits. Per Isaiah 5, that "vineyard" He referred to is the "house of Israel" (ten tribes). And that would include the believing Gentiles with them, both becoming one as Christ's Church.

    So if you think all that is about the Old Covenant, and not The New Covenant under Jesus Christ, then you've got a lot of Bible studying to do.
     
  8. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    I know all about what you are saying. My point is that in order for a Jew to be saved he or she must accept Jesus and believe what He taught........and what Jesus taight comes under the bannor of the New Covenant. And the New Covenant is not about race but about grace. The Jews needs God's grace just as much as the gentiles do.
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You're very correct on that point about grace and The New Covenant, and that all must go through Christ Jesus only.

    But you would be wrong in thinking that the 'seed' of Israel is no longer important per The New Covenant. Need I mention the remnant of flesh Israel God preserved per Romans 11:1-5 again, and the 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel that are sealed for the last days per Rev.7, and the twelve thrones that Christ promised His twelve Apostles would sit upon per Matt.19, judging over the twelve tribes of Israel in His future Kingdom?

    Many of my Christian brethren have been wrongly taught to look at the Jews only as the seed of Israel, when the Jews only made up about a third of total Israelites.

    Then there's the constant misteaching that the Gentiles were the only ones that accepted Christ Jesus and became His Church, with small left-overs of Israel believing with them. It's the OTHER way around per God's Word... the remnant of the seed of Israel which God preserved as the remnant according to the election of grace way outnumbered all... the number of Jews, because that believing remnant from the "house of Israel" is about the ten scattered tribes of Israel that founded the western Christian nations of western history! The ten tribes of Israel made up the MAJORITY of the seed of original Israel. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the ten tribes were still scattered abroad in his days, and were a great number of people, too many to be numbered.

    Realizing this in conjunction with the history of Cimmerian and Scythian Caucasian peoples that migrated into Asia Minor and Europe and became the nations of Apostle Paul's days reveals just how many people that was about, literally millions upon millions. The false teaching that Jews only represent the seed of Israel was a way to keep under wraps the revelation of who the greater number of peoples that migrated from the East into Asia Minor and Europe to form the western nations were descended from.

    No wonder when I ask my Christian brethren how Joseph's son Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations" per the Genesis 48 prophecy, they immediately become dumbfounded because of being wrongly taught to think only of the wandering Jews from land to land, when their history hasn't even included their being a nation again until 1948! The prophecy to Ephraim is about his becoming "a multitude of nations", and that means nations of literal Israelites! So scratch the Jews from that, their history doesn't even come close to fulfilling that!

    When our Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, He was NOT pointing to the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem that refused Him. He was pointing to the remnant according to the election of grace which God has preserved among the ten scattered tribes that were ALREADY established in the lands of Europe and Asia Minor. He knew the Jews at Jerusalem would reject Him; He also knew who would receive Him, that being the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the ten lost tribes scattered among the Gentiles in the lands of Asia Minor and Europe, the areas where His Apostles were sent to preach The Gospel to those who would receive Him on national scales, Britain becoming the first!
    If you'll look at Bible history of 'where' Christ's Apostles went to preach The Gospel after Christ's crucifixion, you'll notice it was in those very lands of Asia Minor and Europe where the seven Churches of Asia are located, and in the west to Rome, Galatia, Spain, Britain, etc. Apostle Paul even sought to take The Gospel farther to the East but was prevented by The Holy Spirit (Acts 16). It would be later, with missionaries sent from the western Christian nations that would take The Gospel farther East to the Pacific regions, and to the rest of the world.
     
  10. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    The New Covenant has nothing to do with the house of Israel.......we are not saved because of Isreal. And I never said that God has forsaken Isreal. But the Bible (both the Old and the New Testament) show that God is no respector of persons. God cares about all people equally. I would go even as far and say there will be more none Israelites in God's kingdom than Israelites since most people in the world are not Israelites.
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Wrong.

    Apostles Paul and Peter specifically quoted from the OT Book of Hosea in preaching the following to Gentiles...

    Rom 9:24-27
    24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.' "
    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"
    (KJV)

    1 Pet 2:9-10
    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
    10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
    (KJV)

    Now notice who those original Hosea quotes were about...

    Hosea 1:6
    6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
    (KJV)

    Hosea 1:9-11
    9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.
    10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
    11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
    (KJV)

    So HOW can that Hosea Scripture both Apostles Paul and Peter quoted, which was SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, be quoted also in preaching to Gentiles? Simple. The ten tribes of the "house of Israel" were scattered among... those Gentiles which Christ's Apostles went to preach The Gospel to! It's very MUCH about BOTH believers of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), AND believing Gentiles they were amongst!! It might even scare some to know there were also some of Judah scattered among them then that also believed!


    No one said our Salvation depends upon Israel. Trying to infer that idea is trying to skirt the real issue of the Scripture evidence above. Apostle Paul was a Hebrew scholar, so there's no way... he'd make a mistake with pointing to that Hosea Scripture to the Gentiles, UNLESS he well knew he was preaching also to the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" that were among those same Gentiles. History reveals he was preaching The Gospel with that also to the lost ten tribes of Israel among those Gentiles.


    That's right. God was not playing favorites when He chose Israel either, nor when He sent The Gospel first to Jerusalem and then to the Gentiles.

    But YOU are playing favorites when you say such things that there will probably be more non-Israelites in His future Kingdom than Israelites. That even shows you're jealous of God's calling of Israel, which is a common un-Biblical play in many of today's Churches from the traditions of men.
     
  12. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    I don't see anywhere in any of those scriptures that say that the New Covenant is about Israel.




    That is what you are infering when you say the New Covenant is about Israel.




    I am not playing favorate........I am just stating the obvious from what is in the scriptures. For example the 144,000 of the tribe of Israel that is mentioned in Revelation 7. What does it say in verse 9 of that chapter? After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
    [sup]10 [/sup]and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"



    I am not saying that only 144,000 of Israel will be saved because that number does not include those whom will be resurrected after the end of the milenium, or those who will be born during the milenium. But it still will not be close to the amount of gentiles that will be saved during those periods as well.
     
  13. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Speaking of covenants, there's more than Old and new. The "old" that has been "done away with" is referencing the Mosaic law. The New Covenant in grace in Christ. The first had to do with one's relationship to God via their own righteousness. The latter, by the righteousness of Christ, the Law's standards being the guide.

    Now there's other covenants. There's the one about the bow in the sky that God would never flood the earth again. Then, there's the Abrahamic Covenant which went to him and his seed (physical descendants) just like a will. That's a family covenant. Then there's the Davidic Covenant to the family of King David. All of these are neither Old nor new per se, but are in full effect yet.

    Their purpose is to bring about God's plan for man's redemption and work in conjunction with it, although they can be mutually exclusive of one another, ie. one can be the chosen of Abraham's seed and not be spiritually saved, but is blessed and has the birthright nonetheless. Then one can be a non-Israelite Gentile and inherit salvation, but as a physical seed does not possess the promises because of the genealogy. Then again, one may be partakers of both.

    Now, a person can inherit the Abrahamic promises via Christ, ie. all that Christ inherited in Judah and David. That's what many people see as the promises to the Jews. But since the Jews never did have the birthright of the blessings of Abraham, but rather the Israelites namely Joseph, the outsider does not inherit what Joseph did. These are physical blessings anyway --- to become many nations, to become many people, to become mighty, etc. However, we do see Gentile nations with converts to Christ here and there and although they as a people would not inherit national blessings based on their genealogy, they inherit the promise to be Kings and priests (that which Christ has) over the nations.

    That's the purpose of the church --- to be Kings and priests and teach and lead the people in the millennial Kingdom of God. Not everyone is called to do that. The rest of the masses will be called and saved later.

    That is explained with the feasts of Jehovah, but I digress from the thread's topic somewhat to get on that tangent.
     
  14. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    The only Covenant that is important in terms of ones salvation is the New Covenant. All those whom comes to God must come under the New Covenant......be they Jew or gentile. The New Covenant is far superior to the Old. The Old Covenant does not include eternal life. It does not include ruling as kings with Jesus over all things. This is not to say that the prophets and those like David and others whom operated under the Old Covenant were not converted.......because they were.....they will be among those in the first resurrection and will inherity all things like those who are now operating under the New Covenant.......the vast majrity of the Israelites were not. There conversion will take place in the second resurrection. They will be rulled over by those who will be in the first resurrection and will ultimatly inherity all things as well.
     
  15. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    No argument here. I think that's the essence of what I said, as the other covenants are genealogical in nature and thus natural. But then being natural, one can possess them and not belong to Christ nevertheless. I get this feeling that some of the natural aspects of the Abrahamic covenant is confused with the new, and because some of the natural seed of Abraham rejected Christ some folks feel they do not have the natural birthright blessings either.
     
  16. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    As far as God is concern if one rejects the New Covenant then even if they have inherited the physical that came under the Old Covenant, they will lose it because the Old Covenant has been made null and void by the death and resurrection of Jesus. So any blessing that the Jews or even the house of Israel are to receive will come under the New Covenant. Those who accept and receive the New Covenant are spiritual Jews be they natural born Jew or not.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    No, I would suppose you don't, because you've been taught to play around with the traditions of men instead of really doing in-depth study in all of God's Word. You probably aren't even aware when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were even quoting from... the Old Testament Books, but think most of what's in the New Testament Books has no relation to the Old Testament Books at all. That's why you would have a difficult time recognizing Paul's quotes from Hosea and Isaiah about Israel in relation to Christ's Salvation.


    I did not infer it. Apostle Paul did....

    Eph 2:11-13
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    (KJV)

    Made "nigh" to what according to that Scripture? Made nigh unto THOSE "covenants of promise" and the "commonwealth of Israel".

    It is a certainty, that we Gentiles will NOT inherit WITHOUT Israel.





    If you had included the rest of God's Word with that, then you might have understood. But your favoritism which mens's doctrines have taught you to trust in has blinded you from the rest of the story about Christ's Salvation involving Israel. The Book of Isaiah is specifically about that Salvation, for both believing Israelites and Gentiles. Destroy God's promises to Israel and if you be a believing Gentile on Christ Jesus, you actually destroy promises meant for yourself too, for our inheritance is with Israel's in God's Kingdom.

    This ALSO why there is no separate gathering of believing Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of the believers of literal Israel at the same time. Both are gathered together at Christ's coming.

    Isa 60:9-12
    9 Surely the isles shall wait for Me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He hath glorified thee.
    10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in My wrath I smote thee, but in My favour have I had mercy on thee.
    11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
    12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
    (KJV)

    There's going to be Gentile nations... in that time also, just as there is today, and the saved of the Gentiles will have kings that will bow to Jerusalem when Israel is established in toto there again.


    Not many understand the resurrection, so that's another subject altogether. Everyone... will be raised from the dead or changed to the "spiritual body" at Christ's second coming on the last day of this present world.

    The idea of the "first resurrection" is only about the overcomers who will reign with Christ Jesus, and all it means is they are the only ones not still subject to the "second death" ever. It does not mean others are literally dead in graves waiting to be resurrected at the end of Christ's thousand years reign.

    Two types of resurrection occur at Christ's return, and only one of them is for the Just. The other one is for the unjust, as they will... bow to Christ Jesus and His elect throughout that thousand years. Even those of the "synagoguge of Satan" will be present to bow to Christ and His elect during that thousand years (Rev.3:9; John 5:28-29).
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Was Apostle Paul doing away with the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel when he said this?...

    Col 3:11
    11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
    (KJV)

    Gal 3:28-29
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    (KJV)

    Clearly not, otherwise he would not have mentioned Abraham and that idea of "heirs according to the promise", which was first given to the Hebrews and then through Israel.

    In Romans 11:1-5, was Paul talking about the Gentiles when spoke of the remnant according to the election of grace? No, he was speaking of flesh born Israelites which God chose and preserved in His Salvation. Not only that, but Paul made a distinction here...

    Rom 11:24-25
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    (KJV)

    Will God's chosen Israel that believes be graffed into a different olive tree than their own? No, but "into their own olive tree" like Paul said there.
     
  19. Doppleganger

    Doppleganger New Member

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    God still made promises to the Houses of Israel and Judah ... like they would be called after his name, and in these places his name would be known.
     
  20. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Nope. You're dead wrong about the physical blessings. You totally missed what I said that they are not old covenant. I'm talking about the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants. They were to a specific genealogy and are neither old nor new, but in effect yet. The new covenant in Christ replaced the old covenant namely, the Law of Moses, or Mosaic Covenant. Not the others.

    You seem to be on a "two covenant" (old/new) track mind. I'm saying there were more, and the apostle Paul stated in Romans how the Abrahamic Covenent, based on faith like the new covenant, antedated the Law, so in that regards the new was around before the old. So, those promises, the ones that promises Christ in the Abrahamic Covenant, are in full effect yet, that is if you truly believe we are now to operate by faith and grace. Otherwise, to say that these covenants can be voided is like saying they depend on works, the very thing Paul emphatically denied.

    And if they are around yet because of Christ, then so are the promises of the land, of becoming many nations, of becoming superpowers, having an earthly King reign over them, etc etc since they are all wrapped together with the promises of Christ. Throw one out and the promises of Christ go out the window by default..
     
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