"True" Israel?

[brightfame52]

Israel is the Church when again we look at and consider the redemption promise made to Israel Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

The Promise is that the Lord shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. Now this is fulfilled in the church Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus is written to the Church, the Elect of God Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Its the same people, the Church, and Israel being redeemed from all iniquity ! No not ethnic national israel, they were a type, a shadow, but Spiritual Israel, Christs and Abrahams Spiritual seed. 10

 

[soberxp]

I am Spiritual Chinese.
I care not for the letter.

 

[brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ has not replaced Israel, but is Israel in union with her Husband and Saviour Jesus/Israel. Yes Jesus is Israel, scripture reveals this. Who does the Prophet mean as Israel here Isa 49:3

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

This is none other than Jesus Christ in whom God is Glorified.

Jn 13:31

Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now the name Israel means:

Israel = "God prevails"

Remember when God first named Jacob Israel ? Notice the words Gen 32:28

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

The greek word for Israel :

Israel = "he shall be a prince of God"

The risen Christ is the Prince Israel and Saviour Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Now this word prince equates to Israel, now understand, this Prince Israel is the Head of His Body the Church, and One with His Wife, who can deny that Christ is now the Head of His Body the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Herein lies the great Mystery, that Christ and His Body the Church are One Flesh Eph 5:30-32

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

So the Church is One Flesh with Israel, the Prince of God, who has prevailed.

If Christ is Israel, the servant of God in whom God is Glorified Isa 49:3

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Then His Body the Church, with whom He is One Flesh, is also Israel, this is the Mystery! 11

 

[brightfame52]

Israel and the Church are the same, Jacob spoke of this in prophesying about the gathering of the People through Christ Messiah, the Seed of the woman, Paul established the same prophesy Gen 49:9-10

9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Shiloh is Jesus Christ, and He shall come, do a work [His Cross Work] and it shall be for the gathering of the People, the Church of God out of the jews and gentiles.

The High Priest also either wittngly or unwittinly spoke of the same John 11:52

And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Now Paul Eph 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Also John again Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The word bring is another way of saying gather !

 

[brightfame52]

The Church is Israel, because as Israel of old, they are called Israel Gal 6:16

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They, the Church is called The Children of Abraham or Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

The Children of God Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The children of promise Rom 9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 4:28

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

The seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 11

 

[brightfame52]

We know the Church, the Body of Christ and Israel , not israel the physical nation, but Israel after the Spirit are the same, because Christ acted as High Priest for her, when He gave Himself a Sacrifice unto God. Writing to the Church Paul writes Eph 5:2, 25

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now writing the Hebrews its written Heb 9:26


For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:12

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

We know in Hebrews Jesus Christ sacrifice comes out of His Person and Office as High Priest, not a physical high priest as according to the law of levi, but a Spiritual High Priest according to Melchizadec and a endless life Heb 2:17


Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

So the High Priest sacrifice unto God for the people are the same as in Eph 5:2

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

And as in Heb 9:26

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hes the same offering as in Eph 5:2 for the Church

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

As He is unto the Hebrew Believers Heb 10:10,14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

All three references use the same greek word for offering prosphora:

1. the act of offering, a bringing to
2. that which is offered, a gift, a present. In the NT a sacrifice, whether bloody or not: offering for sin, expiatory offering

So Christ is the Spiritual High Priest for the Church, His Body, which is none other than Israel Spiritual, whom He gave Himself an Offering unto God , a sweetsmelling Savour !

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I am Spiritual Chinese.
I care not for the letter.

So is that Racial prejudice that I see !

And Spiritual means nothing, for their are many sprits in fact !

But their is only One Holy Spirit !

The Letter ? the words of the Bible. are you saying such has nothing in you ?

Now in regards of the words ? The Devil himself knows the words of the Bible better than all ? but such workers of Deceptions that such work so as to twist the words and play lines games to others, who are not Saved. who swallow the Deceptions because they are under such Delusions !

When the Devil himself tryed to tempt Jesus, Jesus quoted from the Bible ! and the Devil had no come back ! Jesus exposed the Devil for who he truly only is in fact !

Carnal or even religious dupe is truly only of This world in fact ! for such are under Delusions and Deceptions.

In 1979 I watched a show called Monkey Magic. it was a real good show, if anyone had the ability to understand what was being put forward in each show, for it was a lesson that was being convayed of Spiritual insight that is to do with reality in fact !
Now myself being into Ju Jitsu from the age of 6yo listened very carfully to such things. when others were to stupid to understand such, mainly due to ignorance ! my dad did not even understand it, lost in his own little world. as most people are, and bagging me for having an intrest ! Haha what fools ! because one can learn a lot if one is awake.

Sure their are other Monkey Magic Shows that came out later on TV but they are nothing but total trash and totaly moronic garbage, and Satanic !
Why is that, well because the original Show is about enlightenment !
So the new age Satanist brought in only depravity to such a show ! so as to muddy the waters.

Funny that most people in Australia even in the 1980's were ignorant of all Asians, clearly their thinking was that they were all inferiour race's in fact. funny how such a topic can be so easy turn around, but not from any true foundations tho ! for the perception is still an ignorant one, but only comming from a simple delusional perception of fitting in with the trends only ! haha for they have No foundations truly to speek of.
But the majority think they are so smart and with it ! not to mention all must only see things the same way as a Trend does or else !
That's still how pathetic the majority are. because they are not educated but only endoctrinated ego inspired dipsticks.
They get everything wrong ! not worthy to talk to in any depth and are quick to anger and want to stand over you if you are not in line with the trend gods.

But the Show clearly teaches such things are delusions in fact !

 

[XtraPercept]

Christians remain "Christians" and Jews remain "Jews." And Israel remains "Israel."

Why promulgate pride in an earth birth?

The flesh is a seed shell for the spirit; a housing for consciousness; a proving ground for the heart.

It matters not your descendency; that was tracked, in part, to legitimize Jesus Christ and has never been a requirement to serve the true God.

The Gospel is that God's call extends to all; that now any may become His through faith in His Son.

The nature of faith should take far greater precedence than the present expression of ancestral lineage in any discussion meant to glorify God.

We all came from one.

We will all return to One.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why promulgate pride in an earth birth?

I harbor no illusions about you or others changing your position and beginning to like Jews. I agree with Mike Huckabee and disagree with Tucker Carlson on the matter of whether Israel is still God's chosen nation or not. The calling of God is irrevokable. That's why I think it's taken so long for a nation to come back to its calling.

We should take pride in God and in His Word. He promised Abraham that his descendants would form into a nation and represent Himself as their God. He either does it and fails, or He does it and succeeds. That's just how I look at it. It does look like Israel is making a strong comeback!

Ezekiel foretold that Israel would make a physical comeback even before making a spiritual comeback. I believe that's what we're seeing.

The flesh is a seed shell for the spirit; a housing for consciousness; a proving ground for the heart.

Our spirit, or our soul, must learn to reject the desires of the flesh. That does not mean the flesh cannot be made to obey God.

It matters not your descendency; that was tracked, in part, to legitimize Jesus Christ and has never been a requirement to serve the true God.

It very much matters to God what your race and nationality are because God promised, in His Word, that all races would represent Him--at least in part. And He promised that many nations would represent Him in their Constitutions. The operation of the Church has pursued this from the start, and has very much succeeded, despite the inevitable backsliding.

The Gospel is that God's call extends to all; that now any may become His through faith in His Son.

You've mistaken the nondiscriminatory character of God's love with discrimination in mattery of diversity. God is not partial--for sure. But He is very much concerned with the inheritance of nationals with their children in their nations. If you have a family and children, do you not care about your own children--or just indiscriminately take care of other people's kids?

The nature of faith should take far greater precedence than the present expression of ancestral lineage in any discussion meant to glorify God.

We all came from one.

We will all return to One.

In the end we will all belong to one Christ and to one God, yes.

 

[XtraPercept]

In the end we will all belong to one Christ and to one God, yes.

But it's not the end, yet, and there are presently "pseudokristos" in abundance.

Understanding absent faith is illusory to begin with, but belief is not just an individual perogative, it is every man's imperative. Men used to abandon themselves to the licentious deity of their choice. Today, the licentiousness is internalized and the deity done away with.

The Cornerstone was meant to be the point upon which all aspects of life pivot, the component of construction upon which all of a man's actions are contingent. This is the meaning of Jesus as a foundation.

The problem we encounter today is that values are conflated; what truly matters in life has been obscured by frivolity and irrationality rooted in deeply avoidant dishonesty. What God says is set aside in order to hold fast to the claims of men (i.e. what their fathers handed down to them; dead bones of faith; doctrines absent life).

A meaning is determined by those values to which we hold that are always associated with our identity. I needn't expound on the volatility of identity today, but it is a known facet of human behavior to draw great strength from connection to one's roots.

You've conflated the importance of Christ's heritage with the irrelevance of our own, or to whom do you think Paul became so well known for preaching? What roots could a man contact which might be deeper than the God of his origin?

Flesh and blood are what we are given and thus where we start in this plane; they are aspects of us but not our Root. We either stem from the Vine, drawing on Life and Truth for survival, or we are pruned away and fold inward to the darkness and death of falsehood.

It is our words, as Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37, which determine who a man serves. It is the source of words within a man which carries his intent, and this he cannot conceal but through dishonesty, errant rationalizations, and illegitimate justifications.

The meanings of words are recorded and published, there is no excuse not to learn them. It is for ignorance of them that so many are deceived, but they can't learn except by turning to God. Turning to people talking about God is not turning to God.

Jesus completed the Law. No more human intercession, no more human priests, no more substitutionary sacrifice; the propitiation is complete!

So no matter who you are or how you were born, just turn to God directly! Face Him by intention and speak honestly; that is prayer and He hears.

I testify to this because He is the one who taught me words as I use them today.

 

[XtraPercept]

I testify to this because He is the One who taught me words as I use them today.

Oof. Correction.

 

[RepentingChristian]

Many so-called "Christians" hate Israel in spite of God's word, which they conveniently ignore in order to pursue their anti-Israel (and anti-God) agenda.

Amos 9:14-15
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
and they shall never again be uprooted
out of the land that I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But it's not the end, yet, and there are presently "pseudokristos" in abundance.

Understanding absent faith is illusory to begin with, but belief is not just an individual perogative, it is every man's imperative. Men used to abandon themselves to the licentious deity of their choice. Today, the licentiousness is internalized and the deity done away with.

The Cornerstone was meant to be the point upon which all aspects of life pivot, the component of construction upon which all of a man's actions are contingent. This is the meaning of Jesus as a foundation.

The problem we encounter today is that values are conflated; what truly matters in life has been obscured by frivolity and irrationality rooted in deeply avoidant dishonesty. What God says is set aside in order to hold fast to the claims of men (i.e. what their fathers handed down to them; dead bones of faith; doctrines absent life).

A meaning is determined by those values to which we hold that are always associated with our identity. I needn't expound on the volatility of identity today, but it is a known facet of human behavior to draw great strength from connection to one's roots.

You've conflated the importance of Christ's heritage with the irrelevance of our own, or to whom do you think Paul became so well known for preaching? What roots could a man contact which might be deeper than the God of his origin?

Flesh and blood are what we are given and thus where we start in this plane; they are aspects of us but not our Root. We either stem from the Vine, drawing on Life and Truth for survival, or we are pruned away and fold inward to the darkness and death of falsehood.

It is our words, as Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37, which determine who a man serves. It is the source of words within a man which carries his intent, and this he cannot conceal but through dishonesty, errant rationalizations, and illegitimate justifications.

The meanings of words are recorded and published, there is no excuse not to learn them. It is for ignorance of them that so many are deceived, but they can't learn except by turning to God. Turning to people talking about God is not turning to God.

Jesus completed the Law. No more human intercession, no more human priests, no more substitutionary sacrifice; the propitiation is complete!

So no matter who you are or how you were born, just turn to God directly! Face Him by intention and speak honestly; that is prayer and He hears.

I testify to this because He is the one who taught me words as I use them today.

You really have a knack from expressing these things, and I enjoy that. However, I think you draw false conclusions--at least in part. For example, it seems you might throw out all that God did in the OT era under the Law simply because that system was destined to fall short of providing Eternal Life. In reality, the Law paved the way for Christ and thus for Eternal Life.

This/your view is often expressed in a duality, as if the Law and Israel stand on one end, and Christ and Grace stand on the other end, with both sides standing diametrically opposed to one another. The OT People are the mere kernel, whereas the Church is the true seed. This is a form of duality I cannot abide with. It renders God's early OT stages null and void, as if God utterly failed or wasted His time until the Church came along. It may indeed sound like this in Scripture, but is, I think, a basic misunderstanding of what Paul meant.

The Jewish People and their priesthood were not intermediates between God and Man. Rather, they were divinely-ordained intermediaries on a *temporary basis.* The fact Israel, in their faithlessness, turned the priesthood into a kind of religious idol does not mean that God failed to set them up properly to work properly.

Our bodies, also, are not superficial structures designed to fail or be cast away in favor of some bodiless spirituality. Rather, they were what God created to be good, and chose to use by Grace so that His plan may continue in part until Christ could renew us in our bodies and fulfill His original purpose.

I hope you understand? A duality with the early stages being vain, or a temporary process that was proven to be insufficient and lead to Christ as the permanent fix? You decide.

 

[XtraPercept]

I hope you understand? A duality with the early stages being vain, or a temporary process that was proven to be insufficient and lead to Christ as the permanent fix? You decide.

I assert my understanding sufficient for response to your attempt to corral my words into some -ism you identify as a 'duality,' as I stand as singular as the God in whom I believe.

It is a permanent fix indeed, the insufficiency of the Law to bring men to the Eternal was already exposited by Paul in his epistle to the Romans; indeed the Law was meant only to identify sin.

That is what words are for; to distinguish truth from falsehood; to expound as necessary to shine light upon those deceptions that the disobedient love to debate.

The Law protected the lineage of the Christ, in order to ensure the fullest necessary testimony to validate by evidence the truth of the Resurrection promised.

The Gospel is that all the evidence necessary to fulfill the meanings and true interpretations of Scripture are present so as to bring a complete alignment of every Word from God. Jesus is the interstitial material uniting the concatenated canon which has been for so long declared as closed.

But I contend that my God lives and speaks today, that He wrote the Bible, and that all of it makes perfect sense if you believe what it says in truth and sincerity.

And I identify exclusively as a servant of His without regard for further distinctions.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I assert my understanding sufficient for response to your attempt to corral my words into some -ism you identify as a 'duality,' as I stand as singular as the God in whom I believe.

It is a permanent fix indeed, the insufficiency of the Law to bring men to the Eternal was already exposited by Paul in his epistle to the Romans; indeed the Law was meant only to identify sin.

You see, this is not me trying to "corral" your words. Rather, this is what you're actually saying: "the Law was meant only to identify sin." In other words, you're saying that the Law was not just "insufficient"--it was virtually worthless. It only identified sin.

In reality, the Law's purpose was far more than just identifying sin. It was the system by which God ordered Israel to live. It was a system of righteousness. It's insufficiency did not mean it lacked virtue in providing a temporary system of righteousness.

It was not, as I suggested, merely a "kernel" looking forward to the "seed." It iself contained the seed of faith, and as such, was a valid system of righteousness. It was indeed temporary, with respect to final justification, but it was in fact a temporary form of justification. The Law actually did bring forgiveness and acceptance from God--not just show Israel's sin.

The Law protected the lineage of the Christ, in order to ensure the fullest necessary testimony to validate by evidence the truth of the Resurrection promised.

The Law did not just "protect the lineage of Christ." Much more than that, it protected the Hebrew People who were the family and descendants of Abraham. And he had every right to be concerned for his descendants, his family, just as you and I should be concerned for our relatives and descendants.

The fact we have biological relatives does not somehow reduce them to irrelevant, carnal connections to our faith. God cares not just about individuals, but also about their families, and about society as a whole. That may extend to His care for entire nations.

In fact, God's promise to Abraham was directly for nations in the plural. God wanted each nation and He wanted a plurality of nations. That means that He cared about the distinction involved in identifying these nations.

Some would become nations of faith. Others would only have small minorities of faith. God obviously prefers the nations of faith, but also shows patience towards nations with mere minorities of faith.

The Gospel is that all the evidence necessary to fulfill the meanings and true interpretations of Scripture are present so as to bring a complete alignment of every Word from God. Jesus is the interstitial material uniting the concatenated canon which has been for so long declared as closed.

The NT Gospel explains the ultimate end of what has gone before in the OT era. But it does not mean that God's Word was inactive during the OT era.

Christ existed prior to his Incarnation, and his Word was equally valid as an instrument of righteousness through the Law of Moses. It just lacked final Justification until Christ died on the cross and put into effect a system no longer requiring the Law in Israel.

But I contend that my God lives and speaks today, that He wrote the Bible, and that all of it makes perfect sense if you believe what it says in truth and sincerity.

The whole point I wish to make here is that if God "wrote the Bible," and He did, then He was equally active via His Word in the OT system as He is in the current NT system. It's just that the system has evolved from OT to NT without leaving the truths of the past behind and without rendering irrelevant all that God promised and accomplished in that previous system.

And I identify exclusively as a servant of His without regard for further distinctions.

Surely you care about your own relatives? Surely God respects your efforts, in faith, in raising your children and encouraging your family to believe? Is this connection to your family an "unnecessary distinction?"

 

[XtraPercept]

You see, this is not me trying to "corral" your words. Rather, this is what you're actually saying: "the Law was meant only to identify sin." In other words, you're saying that the Law was not just "insufficient"--it was virtually worthless. It only identified sin.

In reality, the Law's purpose was far more than just identifying sin. It was the system by which God ordered Israel to live. It was a system of righteousness. It's insufficiency did not mean it lacked virtue in providing a temporary system of righteousness.

It was not, as I suggested, merely a "kernel" looking forward to the "seed." It iself contained the seed of faith, and as such, was a valid system of righteousness. It was indeed temporary, with respect to final justification, but it was in fact a temporary form of justification. The Law actually did bring forgiveness and acceptance from God--not just show Israel's sin.

The Law is perfect and from it we can derive wisdom.

You contort my words to suit your views, I have only praise for the Law, as I seek to observe it as fully as I am presently able. It is a work in progress because I have so much to learn, yet.

But I have tremendous reverence for the Law, by complete I mean only that the symbols it established have been placed where they belong today; within the hearts of His own.

The Law did not just "protect the lineage of Christ." Much more than that, it protected the Hebrew People who were the family and descendants of Abraham. And he had every right to be concerned for his descendants, his family, just as you and I should be concerned for our relatives and descendants.

I see how, from my words, you could extrapolate an insinuation that the Law "only" this or "only" that, but this is as saying a truck is "only" for work.

The fact we have biological relatives does not somehow reduce them to irrelevant, carnal connections to our faith. God cares not just about individuals, but also about their families, and about society as a whole. That may extend to His care for entire nations.

In fact, God's promise to Abraham was directly for nations in the plural. God wanted each nation and He wanted a plurality of nations. That means that He cared about the distinction involved in identifying these nations.

Some would become nations of faith. Others would only have small minorities of faith. God obviously prefers the nations of faith, but also shows patience towards nations with mere minorities of faith.

I concede similarly that I may have overly diminished the contributions of heritage to an individual, but this was to suppress those aspects of the contention which divert from the task at hand.

The NT Gospel explains the ultimate end of what has gone before in the OT era. But it does not mean that God's Word was inactive during the OT era.

The NT expounds on the OT, adds detail, and expands the language with trustworthy meanings of metaphors and allegories.

Christ existed prior to his Incarnation, and his Word was equally valid as an instrument of righteousness through the Law of Moses. It just lacked final Justification until Christ died on the cross and put into effect a system no longer requiring the Law in Israel.

Do you think "existence" is limited to fleshly presence? I did not imply that.

The whole point I wish to make here is that if God "wrote the Bible," and He did, then He was equally active via His Word in the OT system as He is in the current NT system. It's just that the system has evolved from OT to NT without leaving the truths of the past behind and without rendering irrelevant all that God promised and accomplished in that previous system.

I have not called any Word from God irrelevant, only matters pertaining to the nature of our present discussion that don't contribute to the actual meaning of what we disagree upon.

Surely you care about your own relatives? Surely God respects your efforts, in faith, in raising your children and encouraging your family to believe? Is this connection to your family an "unnecessary distinction?"

Seek first the Kingdom. Why would Jesus say to hate one's family? Do you think He meant it like that, or is there a deeper lesson there which speaks to the point you are trying to make?

 

[XtraPercept]

The Law actually did bring forgiveness and acceptance from God--not just show Israel's sin.

I apologize, I meant to commend your point made here. Yes, the Law made possible the forgiveness and acceptance from God!

But how?

By highlighting the reality and presence of God for His people to properly revere as well as providing opportunity for propitiation by way of demonstration of adherence to His commands.

But could they do it perfectly?

Of course not! But He promised that He would make it possible by His power. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that promise to this very day.

But how do we collect on that promise today?

By reading the Bible in search of God! This means looking up the definitions of words you do not know and trying sincerely to understand what God wants to tell you.

This means being reverent.

This means...

Caring about our words in service of the Word.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But how do we collect on that promise today?

By reading the Bible in search of God! This means looking up the definitions of words you do not know and trying sincerely to understand what God wants to tell you.

This is the unsatiable burden I've had for most of my life, beginning when I 1st capitulated completely to Christ. I've prayed not just for an attitude of devotion, but also have pleaded for a true understanding of Paul's words and of the whole purpose of God in history. I've devoted my entire life to this. Thank you for sharing in my own quest! :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Law is perfect and from it we can derive wisdom.

You contort my words to suit your views, I have only praise for the Law, as I seek to observe it as fully as I am presently able. It is a work in progress because I have so much to learn, yet.

But I have tremendous reverence for the Law, by complete I mean only that the symbols it established have been placed where they belong today; within the hearts of His own.



I see how, from my words, you could extrapolate an insinuation that the Law "only" this or "only" that, but this is as saying a truck is "only" for work.



I concede similarly that I may have overly diminished the contributions of heritage to an individual, but this was to suppress those aspects of the contention which divert from the task at hand.



The NT expounds on the OT, adds detail, and expands the language with trustworthy meanings of metaphors and allegories.



Do you think "existence" is limited to fleshly presence? I did not imply that.



I have not called any Word from God irrelevant, only matters pertaining to the nature of our present discussion that don't contribute to the actual meaning of what we disagree upon.



Seek first the Kingdom. Why would Jesus say to hate one's family? Do you think He meant it like that, or is there a deeper lesson there which speaks to the point you are trying to make?

I'm sorry that we don't seem able to even enunciate what our differences are. Let's then just focus on our agreement, that the Law is good and did demonstrate Israel's sin and need for final redemption. After all, we pursue not just to please God in this life, but also to live with Him forever. Jesus brought that about--not the Law.

 

[DavidTaylor]

Moses had no clue who Jesus was.

Ronald,
Moses most definitely "had a clue" who Jesus was, according to the scriptures:

“By faith Moses… chose rather to suffer affliction with the people of God… Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt” Hebrews 11:24–26


“For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.” John 5:46


“The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee… unto him ye shall hearken.” Duet 18:15


Acts 3:20 & 7:37 both says that Prophet Moses wrote of was Christ:

"20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’" Acts 3:20-23


“This is that Moses, which said… A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up" Acts 7:37


"1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:1-4



"Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, Jesus expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”
Luke 24:7


Paul quoted Moses in Deut 30, speaking of Christ:

“The word is nigh thee… that is, the word of faith, which we preach.” Romans 10:5-8


Paul says the gospel was “preached before unto Abraham.” Moses recorded that promise. Galatians 3:8–9

If Moses wrote the promise that all nations would be blessed through Abraham’s seed, and Paul says that seed is Christ (Gal 3:16), then Moses was literally writing gospel.