True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.

[Patrick1966]

Can you imagine believing it was evil demonic beings putting these believers in prison LOL

Is it possible that Jesus was saying that the devil would compel religious leaders to imprison the apostles? For instance, if one said "Hitler is going to send you to a death camp", a reasonable person would ascertain that it's NOT actually going to be Hitler personally stuffing them into a cattle car, right?

 

[face2face]

@Patrick1966

Re John 8

According to Jesus, men can have only one of two fathers:

1st They can be the seed of Abraham as per John 8:33 but only if they do the works of Abraham as per verse 39 - fleshly descent is not enough!

Or

2nd they can be the seed of the serpent as per verses 41 & 44, if they do his works i.e lying, subtlety, murder etc.

What Jesus was saying is them seeking to kill the true "seed of Abraham" read verse 40, these Jews were admitting that they belonged in the other family i.e the carnally minded serpent like Cain who killed his brother!

F2F

 

[Patrick1966]

@Patrick1966

Re John 8

According to Jesus, men can have only one of two fathers:

1st They can be the seed of Abraham as per John 8:33 but only if they do the works of Abraham as per verse 39 - fleshly descent is not enough!

Or

2nd they can be the seed of the serpent as per verses 41 & 44, if they do his works i.e lying, subtlety, murder etc.

What Jesus was saying is them seeking to kill the true "seed of Abraham" read verse 40, these Jews were admitting that they belonged in the other family i.e the carnally minded serpent like Cain who killed his brother!

F2F

Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[face2face]

Is it possible that Jesus was saying that the devil would compel religious leaders to imprison the apostles? For instance, if one said "Hitler is going to send you to a death camp", a reasonable person would ascertain that it's NOT actually going to be Hitler personally stuffing them into a cattle car, right?

No because Jesus taught you what defiles a person

"it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”


"Out of the heart!"

Comes what?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Satan isn't doing exactly what God intends for him to do, why then is Satan still active in the world?

God is not done with him yet. "Satan" and "devil" are not names but descriptions of what this rebel is....his real name is not revealed in scripture.
Satan means "resister" and devil means "slanderer".

Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (John 8:44 1 John 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once an upholder of truth, but abandoned it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, because he knowingly brought about the death of Adam and Eve, to serve his own purpose which, in turn, brought sin and death to all their offspring. (Romans 5:12)

Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person. The scriptures tell us plainly that satan is God's adversary...an opponent...in opposition to his Creator. He was the one who afflicted Job. What quality of evil killed Job's children and took all his possessions and finally gave him a painful skin disease...?

Remember too that in the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-17.
"And the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying:
12 “Son of man, sing a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and tell him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:


“You were the model of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone
—Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;
And their settings and mountings were made of gold.
They were prepared on the day you were created.
14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.

15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 Because of your abundant trade,
You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.
So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you,
O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.
I will throw you down to the earth
I will make you a spectacle before kings."

This is addressed to the King of Tyre, but it is clearly also directed at satan whom this King was emulating. The King of Tyre was not "a covering cherub in the garden of Eden" and he was not "created" but satan was. You can't "throw someone down to the earth" if they are already here.

Genesis makes it plain that it was Satan who spoke through the medium of a serpent, seducing Eve into disobedience to God’s command. In turn, Eve induced Adam to take the same rebellious course. (Gen 3:1-7; 2 Cor 11:3) As a consequence of Satan’s use of the serpent, the Bible gives Satan the title “Serpent,” which came to signify “deceiver”; he also became “the Tempter” (Matt 4:3) and a liar, “the father of the lie." (John 8:44; Rev 12:9) A dragon is also a reptile.

Those who discount the devil's existence will soon be made aware of it......a showdown is coming and the deceiver will be dealt with in the abyss where he and his cronies will be incarcerated for a thousand years.

Rev 20:1-3...
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

 

[Patrick1966]

God is not done with him yet. "Satan" and "devil" are not names but descriptions of what this rebel is....his real name is not revealed in scripture.
Satan means "resister" and devil means "slanderer".

Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (John 8:44 1 John 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once an upholder of truth, but abandoned it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, because he knowingly brought about the death of Adam and Eve, to serve his own purpose which, in turn, brought sin and death to all their offspring. (Romans 5:12)

Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person. The scriptures tell us plainly that satan is God's adversary...an opponent...in opposition to his Creator. He was the one who afflicted Job. What quality of evil killed Job's children and took all his possessions and finally gave him a painful skin disease...?

Remember too that in the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-17.
"And the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying:
12 “Son of man, sing a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and tell him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:


“You were the model of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone
—Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;
And their settings and mountings were made of gold.
They were prepared on the day you were created.
14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.

15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 Because of your abundant trade,
You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.
So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you,
O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.
I will throw you down to the earth
I will make you a spectacle before kings."

This is addressed to the King of Tyre, but it is clearly also directed at satan whom this King was emulating. The King of Tyre was not "a covering cherub in the garden of Eden" and he was not "created" but satan was. You can't "throw someone down to the earth" if they are already here.

Genesis makes it plain that it was Satan who spoke through the medium of a serpent, seducing Eve into disobedience to God’s command. In turn, Eve induced Adam to take the same rebellious course. (Gen 3:1-7; 2 Cor 11:3) As a consequence of Satan’s use of the serpent, the Bible gives Satan the title “Serpent,” which came to signify “deceiver”; he also became “the Tempter” (Matt 4:3) and a liar, “the father of the lie." (John 8:44; Rev 12:9) A dragon is also a reptile.

Those who discount the devil's existence will soon be made aware of it......a showdown is coming and the deceiver will be dealt with in the abyss where he and his cronies will be incarcerated for a thousand years.

Rev 20:1-3...
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

Wow thank you!

 

[Daniel Blogger]

At this time, Satan has the power to influence the world and even blind the eyes of the world, twisting what God says. However, Satan is a fallen creature, and God is still in control of what happens. Satan has the power to influence people, but God has power over what Satan can do, and whatever the course of events is in this world, it is because ultimately God has control over what happens, not Satan or people.

 

[Earburner]

True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.​

I say false.
God has foreknowledge of what Satan shall do.

 

[RLT63]

Dear Patrick1966,
God's "will" rules supreme in this creation.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Nothing happens that God does not "cause" to happen. That certainly includes all the evil in the world and the destroying work of Satan:

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Consider these two verses below which show how God uses Satan:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

So how did God move David to number Israel and Judah? God sent Satan to cause it to happen:

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Also, God clearly takes credit for all the evil that is in the world:

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they did so because it was planned and caused by God for it to happen. God even placed Satan in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve. God never leaves anything up to chance or to mankind's supposed "free will". God is the cause of everything that happens.

Eve was even shown to be carnally mind before she sinned:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is mankind's carnal nature which causes us to sin. God made mankind that way on purpose:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

God's "will" and plan for mankind includes mankind to have an experience of evil - not just on the receiving end of evil but also on the giving end of evil.

However, since God's overall purpose for this creation is to create new offspring for Himself, He made a pathway for mankind to travel which will lead us back to Him. To accomplish this work, God the Father sent Jesus Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

After Christ finishes His work that His Father gave Him to do, it will be testified to be true that all who died in Adam, have been made alive in Christ - no one will be left out of the glorious future God has planned for us all.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

So then there was never any reason for me to repent of my sins because I had no control over it, I had no choice, no free will. God made me commit those sins so how can I be held responsible? The mass shooters who killed children had no power over what they did, Hitler had no choice in what he did. How can anyone be held responsible?

 

[Earburner]

Dear Patrick1966,
Once a believer is fully converted, they will be solely governed by the Holy Spirit and will sin no more. Being fully converted can take many years. The initial part of conversion happens quickly. That portion of judgment destroys the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer and it also destroys their carnal spiritual nature (Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot). They are said to be destroyed in "one hour". However, to be fully converted, a life time of carnal beliefs must be destroyed as well. This judgment is commonly called the chastisement of Christ.

This verse below teaches that judgment:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (new) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The "earth" is a symbol for the spiritual nature of mankind. The Old Earth is our carnal nature and the New Earth is the spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit gives us. In the verse above, the "earth" mentioned is the New Earth. It is the New Earth which teaches us righteousness and transforms our carnal mind into the Mind of Christ. Once this transformation is complete, the believer will walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

From what you have stated in your post, I believe you have received the Latter Rain and have been given "eyes that can see". I encourage you to keep consuming the truth of God which is taught in scripture. It is that truth which will continue your conversion process and mature you into a son.

I also want to point out this verse which applies to the conversion process:

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead (the new birth), and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Upon receiving the Latter Rain, the believer is saved. It is at this point that God calls him His child even though the full process of conversion is not yet complete (he hasn't learned righteousness yet and he still walks by the flesh and sins). Until the new born child of God fully matures into a son, the blood of Christ will cover the sins they still commit. After they have spiritually matured, they will be a fully converted son of God and will only walk by the Spirit.

Finally, I want to re-enforce something that I am sure you already know. We are the work of Christ and He is the one who will see to it that we spiritually mature into a son. Christ is the one who will defeat the "giants in the land" (strongholds of our carnal mind). All we need is the same faith that Joshua and Caleb had when they spied out the Promised Land and saw the giants dwelling there - and Christ is the one who will give us that faith. We contribute nothing towards our own salvation.

Num 13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days. 26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land. 27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. 28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak (giants) there. 29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan. 30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

The Promised Land is a symbol for our salvation (a child of God). Though it may seem impossible for us to conquer the giants in the Promised Land, we must never forget that Christ is the one who will defeat them. We are the work of His hands and not our own.

I welcome you to join me in saying: "Let's go up at once and possess the Land; for we are well able to overcome it".

Rev 17:14 These (the giants) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Joe

I do agree that it is we who are born again of God's Holy Spirit, that it is we ourselves who ARE the "New earth": "we have this treasure in earthen vessels".
But though we are now "made to be partakers of the divine nature", "as of yet we do not know what we shall become".
That will NOT be known, until we are changed/resurrected into the likeness of Christ and His Immortality, on the Day of His manifestion from Heaven, in the visible glory of Him coming in flaming fire.

Until then, there is no such thing of gaining or having perfection through our mortal flesh.

 

[FaithWillDo]

So then there was never any reason for me to repent of my sins because I had no control over it, I had no choice, no free will. God made me commit those sins so how can I be held responsible? The mass shooters who killed children had no power over what they did, Hitler had no choice in what he did. How can anyone be held responsible?

Dear RLT63,
Only when God puts it in your heart to repent, will you repent.

Your attitude shows your lack of trusting God. God knows what He is doing within the hearts and minds of mankind. One of the primary lessons God wants us to learn in this life is to trust Him for all things and that most certainly includes the choices we make.

When you pray, don't you end your prayers with "Your "will" be done and not my will"?

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Christ only wanted God's "will" in His life, even when it meant His own death at the cross. Christ accepted the Father's "will" as being better than His own "will" and that is the type of faith that God is in the process of teaching us to have. But with what you have said, it sounds like you want your "will" to be done and for God to congratulate you for making the right choice. This comes from a "works" based belief system and makes for self-righteous believer whom Christ rejects.

Consider this verse:

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why does Paul tell them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling?

In the next verse, Paul tells us "why":

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We must learn to trust God for everything because everything comes from Him, even our "will" and the choices we make. This is the kind of faith that we must have in order to be covered under the New Covenant.

Do you have enough faith to believe these verses below:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

As for your question:
God made me commit those sins so how can I be held responsible? The mass shooters who killed children had no power over what they did, Hitler had no choice in what he did. How can anyone be held responsible?

Paul addressed that same question below:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Here is Paul's answer in the next verse:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Nothing happens that God does not "cause" to happen. That certainly includes all the evil in the world and the destroying work of Satan:

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

I do not percieve God creating evil directly, but rather indirectly, and that being due to our autonomous free will.
Because, it is scripturally understood, that the angels have free will, and so does mankind, since the Garden at the beginning of our creation.

To eliminate the understanding that in the Garden, we were created having innocence only, is to exclude our autonomous ability to make choices between "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and "the Tree of Life", and therefore put the blame on God for our OWN choices.

Therefore, having NO knowledge of evil or good, prior to them making that wrong choice, is plainly understood, because in the Garden was also "the Tree of Life".
Simply put, A&E chose the wrong Tree FIRST.

Nothing of the knowledge of good and evil came into them until that day of eating of the forbidden tree of "GOOD AND EVIL".
God Himself even acknowledges the simple reality of that event: Gen. 3[22] "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever".
And for that, we all know the results: there shall be no eternal life in mortal flesh, for we who are naturally born "from beneath". John 8
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

And so we really do know, that we have inherited the KofG&E from A&E, and not from God, directly or indirectly. It was all a matter of their choices, by their own innocent free will, between the two trees.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I do agree that it is we who are born again of God's Holy Spirit, that it is we ourselves who ARE the "New earth": "we have this treasure in earthen vessels".
But though we are now "made to be partakers of the divine nature", "as of yet we do not know what we shall become".
That will NOT be known, until we are changed/resurrected into the likeness of Christ and His Immortality, on the Day of His manifestion from Heaven, in the visible glory of Him coming in flaming fire.

Until then, there is no such thing of gaining or having perfection through our mortal flesh.

Dear Earburner,

It is good to hear that you do not believe the "New Earth" is a new physical earth.

The Old Earth is mankind's "marred" spiritual nature which turned carnal. The New Earth is the new spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit gives us. The Old Heaven is the carnal mind and the New Heaven is the Mind of Christ.

You said:
That will NOT be known, until we are changed/resurrected into the likeness of Christ and His Immortality, on the Day of His manifestion from Heaven, in the visible glory of Him coming in flaming fire.

Until then, there is no such thing of gaining or having perfection through our mortal flesh.

Your statement is contradicted by scripture.

God is concerned about mankind being made "spiritually" perfect. The body, whether a physical body or a spiritual body, counts for nothing as for whether or not we are acceptable to God. Was not Christ perfect in His body of flesh? Once we are fully converted, we, too, will be "perfect" in a body of flesh.

Consider what Paul said:

1Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 13:10 But when that which is PERFECT is come (Latter Rain), then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child (Early Rain), I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man (Latter Rain), I put away childish things.

So what is Paul saying in these verses? Paul is talking about having the ability to understand the hidden teachings of scripture. That ability is given to us when we are made "perfect". We are made perfect when we receive the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Spirit). At that time, our spiritual blindness is healed and the truth of scripture will be unveiled. We will then put away childish things (a carnal understanding of God's Word).

This verse below applies:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual (Latter Rain), but as unto carnal (Early Rain), even as unto babes in Christ.

Paul's conversion experience in Acts chapter 9 and Mark 8:21-25 teaches this truth.

Like James said, we must have the Early and Latter Rains in order to produce the "precious fruit of the earth":

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I do not percieve God creating evil directly, but rather indirectly, and that being due to our autonomous free will.
Because, it is scripturally understood, that the angels have free will, and so does mankind, since the Garden at the beginning of our creation.

Dear Earburner,
You said:
I do not perceive God creating evil directly, but rather indirectly, and that being due to our autonomous free will.
Because, it is scripturally understood, that the angels have free will, and so does mankind, since the Garden at the beginning of our creation.

You are correct when you said "I do not perceive God creating evil directly". God uses Satan, the fallen angels and mankind (all of whom are spiritually marred) to do the evil.

Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

2 Sam 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house (evil from mankind), and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

How did God "move" David? He sent Satan:

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

However, you are wrong about mankind, Satan and the fallen angels having a free will. Scripture NEVER makes such a claim.

Mankind can make "choices" but those choices which we make are caused by God. Read my post above to RLT63 Post #91.

To have a free will, mankind would have to have the ability to make choices without divine restraints.

Here is the definition of free will:

FREE WILL: the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.

God's Word is full of verses which teach mankind has divine restraints on our "will" and on our ability to make choices.

You said:
To eliminate the understanding that in the Garden, we were created having innocence only, is to exclude our autonomous ability to make choices between "the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and "the Tree of Life", and therefore put the blame on God for our OWN choices.

Therefore, having NO knowledge of evil or good, prior to them making that wrong choice, is plainly understood, because in the Garden was also "the Tree of Life".
Simply put, A&E chose the wrong Tree FIRST.

Mankind was made spiritually marred and subject to vanity. Because of such, Adam and Eve became carnally minded before they sinned.

Also, the only forbidden tree in the Garden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of Life was not forbidden at that time because Adam and Eve were already immortal prior to sinning. After they sinned, they were removed from the Garden so that they could not eat from the tree of Life.

The choice Adam and Eve made was the only choice they could have made. God made sure of it by creating them spiritually marred (weak) and by giving them a body of flesh which would rule over their spiritual nature. God even placed Satan in the Garden to do the tempting.

You said:
Nothing of the knowledge of good and evil came into them until that day of eating of the forbidden tree of "GOOD AND EVIL".
God Himself even acknowledges the simple reality of that event: Gen. 3[22] "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever".

Gen 3:22 expresses God's reason for the tree of good and evil being in the Garden and why He caused Adam and Eve to eat from it. By eating from that tree, Adam and Eve (and all their offspring) acquired the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is necessary for mankind to be "like Him" so that we can all become His children after Christ finishes work within each of us.

It was God's plan from the beginning to produce new children and to have them learn about good and evil. After God's purpose of evil is satisfied within mankind, Christ will make sure that we all will only experience "good" for all eternity. He will wipe away all the tears from our eyes.

For this primary reason, God sent Christ into the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Because Adam sinned, all mankind is already condemned to death (the true penalty of sin). But because of Christ's work, all mankind will be constituted righteous. This will happen because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Christ's spiritual work within a person will make their "will" conform to God's "will" in this matter. Christ does His spiritual work by freely giving us the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the Baptism of Fire (judgment). Judgment is a necessary part of our conversion because it destroys our marred spiritual nature so that the spiritual war will end. After it does, the new nature of the Holy Spirit (New Earth) will fully govern the individual and they will be "perfect".

Note: The Early Rain is only an "earnest amount" and is not strong enough to destroy the carnal nature. As Paul says, a spiritual war will develop between the carnal nature and the new nature. Satan will then quickly come to the aid of the carnal nature by sending the spirit of anti-Christ to indwell the new believer. At that point, the deadly head wound to the carnal nature (caused by the sword of Christ) will be healed. Once it is healed, the spiritual war will end and the believer's carnal nature will be made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). The fallen away believer will then begin dwelling in "peace and safety" while following Satan's gospel (another gospel) rather than the Gospel of Christ. At this time, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within the believer and they will lose their salvation. Scripture refers to this spiritually worsened believer as a Man of Sin, a false prophet, a wolf, a minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with ten horns & crowns. When the fallen away believer starts following the crooked serpent's gospel, they will believe in free will and will mix faith and "works" (the crooked way) together. This crooked way is rejected by Christ. However, for the Elect, Christ will send "Elijah" to them in their fallen away spiritual condition and will cause them to repent of their "works" so that the pathway of Christ can be made straight. With a straight pathway, Christ will "come again" (the second coming of Christ) to the Elect believer and He will pour out the Latter Rain. This is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul experienced after being in Damascus for three days. For all the other Elect of this age, they too, must travel the same pathway to salvation. Today, for those who are still in the apostate church, they are waiting for Elijah to appear so that they will repent and receive the Latter Rain.

You said:
And for that, we all know the results: there shall be no eternal life in mortal flesh, for we who are naturally born "from beneath". John 8
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

After we are saved upon our conversion, we are spiritually gathered together to be with Christ in heaven (Mat 24:29-31). From that point, we shall never die, even though our flesh will still die someday. This is what Christ was saying in these verses below:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

After an Elect believer is converted, they will no longer be of this world (from beneath) but will be gathered together with Christ in heaven (from above).

Joe

 

[Earburner]

1Cor 13:10 But when that which is PERFECT is come (Latter Rain), then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child (Early Rain), I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man (Latter Rain), I put away childish things.

So what is Paul saying in these verses? Paul is talking about having the ability to understand the hidden teachings of scripture. That ability is given to us when we are made "perfect". We are made perfect when we receive the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Spirit). At that time, our spiritual blindness is healed and the truth of scripture will be unveiled. We will then put away childish things (a carnal understanding of God's Word).

I do hear what you are saying. I received the early rain, the Holy Spirit of Christ (Rev. 3:20), who leads us to repentance. I then followed through with Him, and was led to the book of John, whereby I then understood that I must be born again of Christ's Holy Spirit, who is Himself the Father's house. Together as One, they now abide in me. By their presence within me, through the shed blood of Christ, I am now MADE to be perfect in Him. Though often I still fail, I am growing in Him. In Him I shall always be perfect in God's eyes, because of my faith in the work of His Son's sacrifice.

 

[Daniel Blogger]

True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.​

I say false.
God has foreknowledge of what Satan shall do.

The story of Job is a good example of God!s power over Satan. Read the first two chapters of the book of Job, and you will see that God sets limits to what Satan can do. I believe that God also has foreknowledge of what Satan will do, but Satan himself is restricted in what he can do.

 

[RLT63]

Dear RLT63,
Only when God puts it in your heart to repent, will you repent.

Your attitude shows your lack of trusting God. God knows what He is doing within the hearts and minds of mankind. One of the primary lessons God wants us to learn in this life is to trust Him for all things and that most certainly includes the choices we make.

When you pray, don't you end your prayers with "Your "will" be done and not my will"?

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Christ only wanted God's "will" in His life, even when it meant His own death at the cross. Christ accepted the Father's "will" as being better than His own "will" and that is the type of faith that God is in the process of teaching us to have. But with what you have said, it sounds like you want your "will" to be done and for God to congratulate you for making the right choice. This comes from a "works" based belief system and makes for self-righteous believer whom Christ rejects.

Consider this verse:

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why does Paul tell them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling?

In the next verse, Paul tells us "why":

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We must learn to trust God for everything because everything comes from Him, even our "will" and the choices we make. This is the kind of faith that we must have in order to be covered under the New Covenant.

Do you have enough faith to believe these verses below:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

As for your question:
God made me commit those sins so how can I be held responsible? The mass shooters who killed children had no power over what they did, Hitler had no choice in what he did. How can anyone be held responsible?

Paul addressed that same question below:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Here is Paul's answer in the next verse:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Joe

Your example shows Jesus had free will, as he prayed not my will but yours be done. We all have that choice. If what you say is correct how could God change his mind or repent?

1. Exodus 32:14
   So the Lord changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Jeremiah 26:19
   But did King Hezekiah and the people kill him for saying this? No, they turned from their sins and worshiped the Lord. They begged him for mercy. Then the Lord changed his mindabout the terrible disaster he had pronounced against them. So we are about to do ourselves great harm.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Jonah 3:10
   When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.

 

[RLT63]

Your example shows Jesus had free will, as he prayed not my will but yours be done. We all have that choice. If what you say is correct how could God change his mind or repent?

1. Exodus 32:14
   So the Lord changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Jeremiah 26:19
   But did King Hezekiah and the people kill him for saying this? No, they turned from their sins and worshiped the Lord. They begged him for mercy. Then the Lord changed his mindabout the terrible disaster he had pronounced against them. So we are about to do ourselves great harm.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Jonah 3:10
   When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.

1. Genesis 6:6
   And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Exodus 32:14
   And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Judges 2:18
   And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lordbecause of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I do hear what you are saying. I received the early rain, the Holy Spirit of Christ (Rev. 3:20), who leads us to repentance. I then followed through with Him, and was led to the book of John, whereby I then understood that I must be born again of Christ's Holy Spirit, who is Himself the Father's house. Together as One, they now abide in me. By their presence within me, through the shed blood of Christ, I am now MADE to be perfect in Him. Though often I still fail, I am growing in Him. In Him I shall always be perfect in God's eyes, because of my faith in the work of His Son's sacrifice.

Dear Earburner,
Very interesting.

Can you share a little more of your experience?

Do you still attend a church?

Do you believe in "free will"?

Do you believe that Christ will save all mankind?

Here is a brief summary of the steps which Christ will cause His Elect to travel to their salvation:

• The receiving of the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church.
• The coming of the spirit of anti-Christ to the believer and the consuming of leavened bread.
• Falling away, the Abomination of Desolation and becoming a Man of Sin.
• Hearing and answering the call of Elijah so that the pathway for Christ is made straight.
• The Second Coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
• Spiritual blindness healed.
• Marriage Supper when the believer consumes milk, bread, meat and New Wine.
• Christ spiritually appears and gathers the believer to dwell with Him in heaven.
• Judgment of the Day of the Lord to destroy the carnal nature and the carnal beliefs of the mind.
• Conversion.
• The time of testing.
• The bodily resurrection at the end of the age.

Can you relate to these steps? (all but the last one).

It is my understanding that the time in between receiving the Early and Latter Rain is usually many years. I spent about 32 years in the apostate church before I received the Latter Rain.

This verse applies as to why there are many years in between the Early and Latter Rain:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's gospel, another gospel) shall be preached in all the world (the believer) for a witness unto all nations (the believer's thoughts and beliefs); and then shall the end come (the second coming with the Latter Rain).

We must be fully made "worse than the first" before Christ will come. Paul said this about it:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (Latter Rain, new birth), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except the apostasy come first (becoming "worse than the first"), and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (via the Doctrine of Free Will).

Once a believer has been given "eyes that can see", the Man of Sin (themselves) will be revealed.

Can you relate to the steps of the pathway to salvation which I presented above?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Your example shows Jesus had free will, as he prayed not my will but yours be done. We all have that choice. If what you say is correct how could God change his mind or repent?

1. Exodus 32:14
   So the Lord changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Jeremiah 26:19
   But did King Hezekiah and the people kill him for saying this? No, they turned from their sins and worshiped the Lord. They begged him for mercy. Then the Lord changed his mindabout the terrible disaster he had pronounced against them. So we are about to do ourselves great harm.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Jonah 3:10
   When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.

Dear RLT63,
No, Jesus did not have a free will. He (like mankind) has a "will" but it is always subordinate to the Father's "will".

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

It is the same with mankind:

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

When we are fully converted, we will only want our "will" to conform to God's "will". This is the type of faith that saves us. We must learn to trust God for everything, even when our "will" desires something else.

The night before Christ was crucified, He prayed to have the cup of the crucifixion pass from Him. However, Christ ended His prayer with "not my will but thy will be done". That is where all mankind's faith will someday be. When Christ finishes His work in us, we will only desire the good and perfect "will" of the Father to be done in our lives, even to the point of death.

To achieve that level of faith and trust in God, mankind must go through the spiritual process of tribulation and sin so that we can learn to trust God for everything. For that reason, even though God causes all things to happen, God still finds fault with us when we sin. He finds fault with us so that we can learn from the error of our ways. After we have learned this lesson, God will remove the evil and sin from within us so that we will be like Christ and be His children who fully trust in Him for all our needs.

Consider this verse:
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Why should we give thanks to the Father for our "words or deeds" if we have a free will to speak or do them?

We give thanks to Him because all things come from the Father (including our words and deeds). Free will is an illusion and a lie from Satan.

Finally, the examples you mentioned do not speak to "free will" but only to the way God interacts with mankind so that we can learn from Him.

Joe