TULIP an open discussion

[Dan Clarkston]

You gave no Scripture that teaches that being "chosen" means that God causes you to believe and remain faithful by the indwelling Spirit.

They have to twist scripture to get their doctrine and engage in subterfuge

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's absolutely false doctrine to teach or believe that the Lord assigns some people to burn in hell before they are ever born, before they have ever even had the opportunity to sin or be involved in wrong doing.

Well, you may think this is heresy but I think Paul the Apostle would disagree.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Being an Apostle does not mean Paul can write his Epistles without OT prophecy to back up what he is teaching. Paul gave evidence from the OT Scriptures for everything he was teaching the Church, and more so for the Jewish population.

That isn't necessarily true. Paul will never contradict the prophets, but he doesn't need to make reference to the prophets.

Here you give more vague references. Where, in "Romans 5, 1 Peter 1, James 1" does it plainly teach that endurance in belief is a gift of God?

You can see it for yourself.

You throw in "chosen" as if the Bible interprets "chosen" like you do, but you give no Scripture proof.

I apologize. I thought you read Romans 9.

Those God chooses to save are those who believe, according to all the Scriptures.

Yes, but endurance in believe proves that God chose them because God is the one who guarantees endurance.

The believers are the Chosen of God whom Paul and Peter were writing to.

Not all believers are the chosen. Only those who have attested faith are the chosen.

Were Paul and Peter writing to the unbelievers or believers in Christ to instruct them?

It doesn't matter who reads the letter. All three apostles clarify the subject.

You gave no Scripture that teaches that being "chosen" means that God causes you to believe and remain faithful by the indwelling Spirit.

I did. You must have missed it.

The Promise and Grace of God is by faith, the same faith Abraham had in God.

The phrase "by faith" doesn't indicate that faith is the means to grace. If there were a means to grace, as Paul said, it wouldn't be grace.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life

Again, you and I both know that John 3:16 isn't true for all believers. It applies to those who endure and never fall away. Peter, Paul, and James tell us who, among all the believers, will never fall away.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is a difference between renouncing the detestable things (repentance), and being able to walk in God's statutes and keep His ordinances.

We have to genuinely believe first, a commitment to obey Lord Jesus, before we receive life from the indwelling Spirit.

So you say. But you confuse correlation with causation. Belief and the indwelling are correlated and sometimes coincidental. But God does not pour out his spirit on every believer. He pours out his spirit on those whom he has chosen.

True Faith, by which we receive the Spirit, always includes repentance, by which renounce evil and commit to obey Lord Jesus, following him.

Sure, but even those who truly believe might fall away. God prepares the hearts of those whom he intends to save and none of them will ever fall away.

What Ezekiel is teaching us is that we must first repent - a commitment to renounce evil and to follow Lord Jesus. When we do so, the Spirit indwells us to give us the ability to walk in His statutes that we committed to when we first believed.

Not everyone who repents or believes is being saved. Only those whom God chooses to save will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and never fall away.

So, are you saying that God must first give you a new heart and a new spirit so you can repent and believe?

No. I am saying that God must first give an individual a new heart and a new spirit so they will endure. God guarantees that those he has chosen will never fall away.

The point I was making, however, is the fact that God hardens some people. The effect of hardening is a foreclosure on a free will choice to repent.

God is not willing that "anyone" should perish, even those who remain in wickedness.

Is that what Paul meant to say? I don't think so.

As you can see, God is kind and patient with all mankind, desiring us to repent, leading us to repentance, but not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly is leading all mankind to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

I disagree. The fact that God warns people to repent, doesn't nullify divine determinism.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Well, you may think this is heresy but I think Paul the Apostle would disagree.

The Lord taught thru the Apostle Paul that men have free will and can fall away from the Lord and end up being lost after having been born again.

In order to hold the calvinist position, one must only on to verses they can twist to make them sound like God is calvinist while rejecting / ignoring the whole counsel of God which blinds them to the Truth. It's sad really.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I will show you what the Apostles actually taught; though, I am not sure I know who the other two Apostles are that you speak of.

The Christians are admonished to remain in the faith to be saved:

1 Peter 1:9 (ENIV) 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Some will remain others won't. Peter tells you the reason why some don't, but your quote left that part out.

Not everyone receives the end result of faith. Some fall away. Peter tells us who will not fall away.

Here is where Peter qualifies his statement

1 Peter 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead . . .​

The statement above is the thesis statement for the argument that follows. Whatever Peter says after this in the following paragraphs is predicated on being born again. And, according to Peter, God causes people to be "born again." And, the condition of being born again leads to a living hope. In other words, if God has caused a person to be born again, that person's hope will never be thwarted or defeated.

1 Peter 1:4

to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you . . .​

Verse 4 in the passage is based on Peter's thesis statement in verse 3, which talks about a specific group of people chosen by God to be born again. Those who have been born again by God have a hope that is unfailing. Furthermore, they will inherit imperishable treasures that are reserved for them in heaven.

1 Peter 1:5
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Verse 5 in the passage refers to those who have been born again. They are protected by God's power through faith. This means that a person who has been born again lives a life of faith, following the teachings of Jesus. God guarantees that the faith of the born-again person will continue and that the individual will ultimately attain salvation in the last time. In this context, the term "through" indicates continuing in time toward the completion of the process. Due to the power of God, the faith will continue to salvation.

1 Peter 1:6-7
In this, you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Peter does not recommend sadism. He isn't saying that we should be happy because we are feeling Pain. The suffering doesn't make us happy. Rather, he is saying that we should be happy when our faith is proven. A proven faith will result in praise and glory, he says. Our suffering only lasts a little while by comparison to our glory, which lasts forever. And the proving of our faith is valuable to us personally because it ratifies our personal outcome.

None of the Apostles taught that God guarantees that we will endure in the faith to the end;

Anyone who believes this has not understood what they teach.

rather, they teach that the responsibility to endure in the faith is completely upon each Christian.

We have seen from Peter that endurance is a gift of God's grace, which is true of all those whom God has caused to be born again to a living hope.

Both Paul and James argue the same point.

James 1:12-16 (James instructing the Church) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him... 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

who endures temptation . . .
Verse 12 is another topic sentence. Blessed are those who 1) suffer trials of faith, and 2) persevere under trial. Such an individual is blessed because his or her faith has been proven (translated approved.) The word is "attested" meaning that the faith has been found to be unbreakable.

The term indicates when something is durable and will not break during use. Knives and swords, for example, can be tested for durability. Once a sword has been tested in the shop, it can be trusted in battle. The sword that has been proven to be durable is an "attested" or "proven" sword. It will not break or bend with use. It remains flexible and resilient.

According to James, Peter, and Paul, a faith that has been attested will never fail. Someone with such a faith will never fall away. The ultimate goal is to attain eternal life, and only those who meet the criteria will be granted it. James argues that if someone's faith has been attested, meaning it has been proven durable, that person can have a confident expectation of receiving eternal life.

He will receive the crown of life . . .
Now that James has established the topic criteria: 1) suffer trials, 2) endure trials, 3) proven faith he draws a conclusion about such people. These people will receive the crown of life.

A person receives the Holy Spirit by believing, period.

What does belief have to do with it? Is God saving those who believe that Paris is the capital of France? Is he saving those who believe that water freezes at zero degrees Celsius? What an odd thing to say.

You see, not all truths and facts challenge my existence. Some do, some don't. People aren't saved because they are believers. People are saved because they have the proper inwardness. Only those who have the proper inwardness will accept themselves to be sinners in need of a savior. Only those with the proper inwardness will accept that Jesus is the Messiah, God's son, and worthy of ruling the world. Only those with the proper inwardness will freely admit that they are unworthy of salvation, unworthy of redemption, unworthy of consideration. Only those with the proper inwardness will seek God's forgiveness and not seek a meritorious salvation.

God does not give every believer the proper inwardness. He gives the proper inwardness to those whom he chooses.

We receive the Spirit by faith, not so we can believe

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Jesus is being descriptive, not prescriptive, with his language. What he says about believers is true only to the degree that said believers persevere in the faith. And perseverance is a gift of God's grace.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {{{through faith}}}.

By believing we receive the Spirit. You believe we must receive the Spirit so we can believe, but that is not what the Scriptures teach.

No. I believe that we must be given the Spirit so we can endure in belief. Remember the parable of the sower. Only the soil that the farmer has tilled and cultivated will produce a faith that endures.

Your doctrine does not even make sense.

It makes sense to me.

Why would God harden someone when they already cannot believe unless the being indwelt by the Holy Spirit???

Hardening doesn't keep someone from believing. Hardening keeps someone from repenting.

So, now you are saying that the Spirit does not give us the power to believe?

It doesn't take power to believe. All it takes is rationality. God exerts his power to maintain our belief.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That was sufficiently explained. God desires to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32), just like God did with Israel all through Israel's history. However, God's patience has limits, just as God explains in His dealing with Israel. Paul's use of the "Potter and the Clay" is the same as God's use of it in Jeremiah 18, although Paul does not give the details in that section of Romans 9, but if you keep reading Romans 9 (See: Romans 9:30-33, and Romans 1:22-28), you will see that it was the Jew's continued lack of faith that caused God to harden them.

You didn't address the question though. In your view, it is okay for God to foreclose on individual free will. And for some reason this doesn't bother you. Paul clearly argues that some people in Israel did not attain justification because God hardened some individuals. And he also argued that God granted mercy (not hardening) to others.

I can only assume that as a fellow Christian, you believe that God's mercy is unmerited. I also believe that God's mercy is unmerited grace. Building on that common ground, we are faced with a profound question. If in God's mercy he didn't harden some Israelites why did he harden the others?

Understand what I am asking? I think you would agree that God's mercy extends to everyone who seeks it. But according to Paul, God's mercy didn't extend to some in Israel. God had mercy on some but hardened the rest. Is it fair that God would harden some in Israel who deserved judgment while having mercy on others?

Is it okay with you that God foreclosed on their repentance or not? If God's mercy is open to all who want it, why does he cause some to not want it?

God gives us reasons why he forms someone for noble or ignoble purpose, and that all depends on whether the sinner will resist or repents (Jeremiah 18:1-12; 2 Timothy 2:19-22).

If one compares Jeremiah with Romans, one will notice that Jeremiah's potter analogy makes a different point than Paul's potter analogy. Jeremiah's potter analogy illustrates how God deals with nations, making them and remaking them as he sees fit, in response to repentance or obstinance, as the case may be.

Paul's potter analogy deals with the question of God's choice and why God is not unjust to choose a person before they are born. Paul's analogy has nothing to say about God's interaction with human beings after they are born.

Jeremiah's potter analogy:
1) deals with nations, not individuals.
2) illustrates God's ability to reform a nation that repents.

Paul's potter analogy:
1) deals with individuals, specifically, individuals "of the promise."
2) helps the reader understand why God is not unjust to deal with individuals based on a choice he made before they were born.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Lord taught thru the Apostle Paul that men have free will and can fall away from the Lord and end up being lost after having been born again.

The Apostle Paul didn't show or demonstrate the mankind has freedom of the will. Rather, everyone already knows this. He has no reason to prove or demonstrate something that everyone knows.

In his epistle to the Romans, Paul asks and answers various questions. One of the questions deals with God's promise to give Israel a new heart and a new spirit. The question arises because it appears that God is not keeping his promise since some in Israel don't seem to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. What accounts for the fact that some believe while others don't?

According to Paul, being a child of promise was always based on God's choice. And according to Israel's history, only a select few were children of promise. Isaac was, while Ishmael was not for instance.

In order to hold the calvinist position, one must only on to verses they can twist to make them sound like God is calvinist while rejecting / ignoring the whole counsel of God which blinds them to the Truth. It's sad really.

Well, this thread is dedicated to untwisting the verses.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Apostle Paul didn't show or demonstrate the mankind has freedom of the will

Sure he did, but those that have been indoctrinated to be calvinists are blinded to the Truth so they wouldn't know.

Well, this thread is dedicated to untwisting the verses

Not if the calvinists are involved.

 

[APAK]

(Psa 51:1) Have mercy on me, God, according to Your grace. According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, blot out my transgressions.
(Psa 51:2) Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, cleanse me from my sin.
(Psa 51:3) For I acknowledge my transgressions; my sin is constantly before me.
(Psa 51:4) Against You, and You only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in Your sight; that You may be proved right when You speak, and justified when You judge.
(Psa 51:5) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me.
(Psa 51:6) Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts; You teach me wisdom in the innermost place.
(Psa 51:7) Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
(Psa 51:8) Let me hear joy and gladness, so that the bones which You have broken may rejoice.
(Psa 51:9) Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out all of my iniquities.
(Psa 51:10) Create in me a clean heart, O God, renew a right spirit within me.
(Psa 51:11) Don’t throw me out from Your presence, and don’t take Your spirit of holiness from me.
(Psa 51:12) Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, uphold me with a willing spirit.
(Psa 51:13) Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, sinners shall be converted to You.
(Psa 51:14) Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation. My tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
(Psa 51:15) Lord, open my lips; my mouth shall declare Your praise.
(Psa 51:16) For You don’t delight in sacrifice, or else I would give it; You have no pleasure in burnt offering.
(Psa 51:17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
(Psa 51:18) Do well in Your good pleasure to Zion, build the walls of Jerusalem.
(Psa 51:19) Then You will delight in the sacrifices of righteousness, in burnt offerings and in whole burnt offerings. Then they will offer bullocks on Your altar.

What wonderful heartfelt words of sincere regret and love for his God.

David committed several serious sins. While married, David committed adultery and got another woman pregnant, and she became his new wife and murdered her previous husband.

He prays to God for forgiveness, for a new heart, to bring him joy again, in God’s Spirit, for his salvation. He prayed that God’s spirit would never abandon him.

These words speak of once salvation is given to a man, salvation is for life and never taken away. It is not based on sin or on the degree and seriousness of sin.

David sincerely repented to his Lord God. He opened his heart to God to place his own spirit within him, to be restored.

And all David did with a very burdened heart was to decide to yield his will in genuine repentance to allow God into his heart to cleanse him to restoration.

This is a wonderful example in the Bible where a genuinely humbled spirit reaches out to God for a new heart in forgiveness. And God will do this every time, of a truly genuine repentant heart.

Did David decide to choose to be 'reborn' (not into Christ's spirit at that time) by his own free-will? I think not. God moved to him and caused him to open up his heart in true repentance.. Then all heaven broke loose...and the rest is history. Davis was being saved, by God's given faith for the next life.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: Being an Apostle does not mean Paul can write his Epistles without OT prophecy to back up what he is teaching. Paul gave evidence from the OT Scriptures for everything he was teaching the Church, and more so for the Jewish population.

That isn't necessarily true. Paul will never contradict the prophets, but he doesn't need to make reference to the prophets.

Paul would never contradict God. The fact is that Paul did give Scripture evidence, referring to the OT, for the whole Gospel revelation he preached about. That is how Paul reasoned with the Jews. If you use a study Bible, you will see all the many OT references Paul made in his Epistles.

Not all believers are the chosen. Only those who have attested faith are the chosen.

Your belief is that there is a difference in “faith” of believers that the Apostolic Writers were writing to. In contrast to your belief, the Apostles’ letters are all addressed to, and directed to, the true Spirit indwelt believers to instruct and warn them to remain faithful to receive eternal life lest they be cut off. While unbelievers may also view Paul's letters, Paul specifically addressed his letters to the true born again Christians.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

setst777 said: The Promise and Grace of God are both by faith, the same faith Abraham had in God.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

The phrase "by faith" doesn't indicate that faith is the means to grace. If there were a means to grace, as Paul said, it wouldn't be grace.

That is your belief, but the Apostles taught that God's grace is not by works but by faith (Romans 2:4-5).

Romans 4:2-5 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

The Apostles addressed their letters to the true born-again believers in Lord Jesus, who were presently saved by faith in Lord Jesus. The Apostles, and Lord Jesus, instructed, admonished and warned the true believers to remain in the faith to be eternally saved.

The Scriptures, which are directed to true believers, state that we access God’s grace through faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are justified by our faith in Lord Jesus, just as Abraham was.

Romans 4:3 (WEB) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

God’s grace is granted to those who have a Gospel faith - the faith of Abraham who also was justified by his faith.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

Again, you and I both know that John 3:16 isn't true for all believers. It applies to those who endure and never fall away. Peter, Paul, and James tell us who, among all the believers, will never fall away.

“John 3:16” explains to us that by a true faith in Lord Jesus we presently possess eternal life - "whosoever believes has eternal life."

However, only by enduring in that same true faith to the end do we inherit eternal life permanently.

1 Peter 1:9 (NIV) 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

2 Peter 1:8-11
(Peter admonishing Elect Believers, who are presently saved by faith, to remain in that faith to the end to receive Eternal Life permanently)
9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Sure, but even those who truly believe might fall away. God prepares the hearts of those whom he intends to save and none of them will ever fall away.

All true believers receive the Holy Spirit. Whether the Spirit indwelt believers remain in the faith is another matter of concern that the Apostles warned the true Spirit indwelt believers about in their Letters to the Churches.

The indwelling Spirit does not prevent us from falling away, nor does the Spirit maintain our faith; rather, the NT Writers warn that the Spirit indwelt believers are obligated to live by the Spirit to have life.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

setst777 said: God is not willing that "anyone" should perish, even those who remain in wickedness.

Is that what Paul meant to say? I don't think so.

That is what he said, whether you are enabled to accept it or not.

God is patient with ALL mankind leading us to repentance; for, God’s kind intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32); however, Paul teaches us that God allows us to make our own choice in the matter, as Paul plainly taught.

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Many do refuse of their own free will to repent, but they could if they wanted to, and God is patient, leading everyone to repent, just as Paul plainly states in "Romans 2:4-9."

 

[setst777]

I disagree. The fact that God warns people to repent, doesn't nullify divine determinism.

Divine determinism, as you define it, is only in your mind - a doctrine which you hold to, even though the Scriptures do not plainly teach it. I believe in Divine Determinism; in that, God has determined to save all those who freely choose to believe in Lord Jesus. And God has determined to judge all those who refuse to believe (John 1:16-18). God has determined that true believers who remain faithful to the end will be permanently saved in His Kingdom.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Jesus warning his disciples 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Although our faithfulness does not merit our salvation, God counts as worthy to stand before the Son of Man, those who do remain faithful.

1 Peter 1:4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you . . .

Verse 4 in the passage is based on Peter's thesis statement in verse 3, which talks about a specific group of people chosen by God to be born again. Those who have been born again by God have a hope that is unfailing. Furthermore, they will inherit imperishable treasures that are reserved for them in heaven.

We all agree that the hope believers have is in the unfailing promises of God, because God’s promises are true; however, that does not mean that some believers, who presently have this hope, will not later fall away into false doctrine or sinful lusts.

1 Peter 1:6-7 In this, you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Peter does not recommend sadism. He isn't saying that we should be happy because we are feeling Pain. The suffering doesn't make us happy. Rather, he is saying that we should be happy when our faith is proven. A proven faith will result in praise and glory, he says. Our suffering only lasts a little while by comparison to our glory, which lasts forever. And the proving of our faith is valuable to us personally because it ratifies our personal outcome.

We all agree that the trials of life prove our faith, but where does Peter say that our faith is guaranteed to endure through these trials?

Here is what Peter himself had to say to true believers about their faith.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (Peter addressed his letter to elect believers, admonishing them)
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (Peter continues addressing the elect believers)
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

setst777 said: A person receives the Holy Spirit by believing, period.

What does belief have to do with it? Is God saving those who believe that Paris is the capital of France? Is he saving those who believe that water freezes at zero degrees Celsius? What an odd thing to say.

If you were reading the context, you would realize this has nothing to do with Paris, or water freezing. Only true believers receive the Spirit.

Question: Does the Spirit indwell a person because he believes that Paris is the Capital of France, or does the Spirit indwell a True repentant believer in Lord Jesus?

Question: So, will the Spirit indwell believers by just any kind of faith, or by a true Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus?

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Question: So, do we receive the Spirit so we can have a true Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, or does the Spirit indwell us because we do have a true Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus?

That does not mean Spirit indwelt believers cannot fall away from the faith.

Romas 8:11 So then, brothers and sisters, {{{we}}} have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you [the believers he is writing to] live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The Spirit will lead us, but we must continue in the faith manifested by walking in the Spirit to have life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

Therefore, being indwelt by the Spirit, a true believer can still fall away if he does not continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up.

Question: Is it true then, as you say, that the Spirit indwells a person so he can have enduring faith?

Not according to the Scriptures I quoted for you. Born again Christians can and do fall away, and that is why the Apostles keep warning the Brothers and Sisters in Christ to remain faithful, lest they fall away and be cut off. The Spirit will only give eternal life to the Spirit indwelt believer who continually sows to the Spirit without giving up.

No. I believe that we must be given the Spirit so we can endure in belief. Remember the parable of the sower. Only the soil that the farmer has tilled and cultivated will produce a faith that endures.

You are being deceptive by separating “endure” from “belief.” You believe that a true faith is one that endures, and it is by this “faith” that we receive the Spirit. However, whether believers endure to the end or not does not mean that a believer is not presently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, having life, by faith.

To prove my point, the Spirit indwelt believer is admonished and warned to continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up to be given eternal life by the Spirit who indwells him. Not every Spirit indwelt believer will continue to sow to the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

setst777 said: Why would God harden someone when they already cannot believe unless the being indwelt by the Holy Spirit???

Hardening doesn't keep someone from believing. Hardening keeps someone from repenting.

So, you believe a person can repent toward God without first believing in Him? Why do you separate faith in God from repentance, when the Scriptures teach that you cannot have one without the other?

Acts 20:20-21 (ENIV) 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance [change of mind and purpose] and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

 

[setst777]

It doesn't take power to believe. All it takes is rationality. God exerts his power to maintain our belief.

Can you show me the Scriptures that teach “God exerts his power to maintain our belief? So far, you have provided verses that you say prove this to be true, but, in fact, they only prove God provides the power to be saved by our faith in him. So, show me the Scriptures that plainly teach that God exerts his power to maintain our belief.

God’s power does not maintain faith, but rather, the Power of God maintains the salvation of all those who believe (continuous). God’s power saves those who believe.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God {{{for salvation}}} for everyone who believes (continuous), for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith {{{unto}}} salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 (NIV) 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

You didn't address the question though. In your view, it is okay for God to foreclose on individual free will. And for some reason this doesn't bother you. Paul clearly argues that some people in Israel did not attain justification because God hardened some individuals. And he also argued that God granted mercy (not hardening) to others.

I addressed this same question of yours at least 5 times so far. You cannot comprehend the response because your doctrine has veiled your eyes so you cannot see. God's desire is to save all, even those who remain in wickedness (Romans 2:4-5), and God offers his grace of salvation to all (John 3:16); however, God has every right to harden people so they cannot repent and be saved again, either temporarily or permanently, because they continually refused God’s grace, choosing instead to live for their own lusts or their false doctrines.

That is the true righteousness of God in contrast to your belief that God creates our choices to do evil or good, and already predestined to eternal torment those whom God created to be evil.

I can only assume that as a fellow Christian, you believe that God's mercy is unmerited. I also believe that God's mercy is unmerited grace. .

According to the Scriptures, we do not merit God’s grace by our faith in His Son; rather God’s gracious and good pleasure is to justify and save those who believe (John 3:16).

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 4:2-5 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

If one compares Jeremiah with Romans, one will notice that Jeremiah's potter analogy makes a different point than Paul's potter analogy. Jeremiah's potter analogy illustrates how God deals with nations, making them and remaking them as he sees fit, in response to repentance or obstinance, as the case may be.

Paul's potter analogy deals with the question of God's choice and why God is not unjust to choose a person before they are born. Paul's analogy has nothing to say about God's interaction with human beings after they are born.

Jeremiah's potter analogy:
1) deals with nations, not individuals.
2) illustrates God's ability to reform a nation that repents.

Paul's potter analogy:
1) deals with individuals, specifically, individuals "of the promise."
2) helps the reader understand why God is not unjust to deal with individuals based on a choice he made before they were born.

The “Potter and Clay” analogy is the same in "Jeremiah 18" and "Romans 9;" in that; both recognize God’s will to choose whom he will form for blessing or punishment, or for noble or ignoble purposes. The only thing different is that, In "Jeremiah 18," God gives us His own reasons why he makes the choices he does in whom He forms for noble or ignoble purpose.

Paul is not contradicting God; rather, Paul is not, at this time, giving a detailed view of God's reasons, which God himself stated in Jeremiah 18, for forming some for blessing and others for punishment. What you are doing, is ignoring God’s reasons for forming some for blessing and others for punishment; and then, you are forcing your own doctrine of “Diving Determinism” into Paul’s writing, as if that is what Paul was teaching of "how" God forms some for blessing and others for punishment.

In addition, both “Jeremiah 18” and “Romans 9” deal with both Israel as a nation, and also individuals in the nation; in that, in “Romans 9:19-26,” Paul describes individuals being hardened, but then, in “Romans 9:27-29,” shows that Israel, as a nation, has been hardened in general, because the Israelites refused to turn to God in faith. The same is true in “Jeremiah 18,” as follows:

Jeremiah 18:10-12 (WEB) 10 if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit them. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”

The fact is that Israel is God’s Elect, and God’s election is irrevocable (Romans 11:19-33), but the only ones who are part of Israel, and who are recipients of all the promises God made to Israel, are those who believe and remain in the faith to the end, because many, both Jews and Gentiles will be cut off for falling away.

I hope I have been helpful to your own studies as well.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul would never contradict God.

Agreed, Paul would never contradict God. However, Paul's teaching and commentary are only sometimes based on prior revelation. As an Apostle of Jesus Christ, he has been given spiritual wisdom and insight into the mystery of God's will, which allows him to provide new revelation.

The fact is that Paul did give Scripture evidence, referring to the OT, for the whole Gospel revelation he preached about. That is how Paul reasoned with the Jews. If you use a study Bible, you will see all the many OT references Paul made in his Epistles.

I understand. But it doesn't follow that since Paul employs the OT to make theological points, he always does so. Sometimes he doesn't. But when he does, he expects his Jewish readers to open the Bible to the passage at hand and see that his point is supported by the OT passage.

For instance, Paul argues that Isaac, not Ishmael, was a child of promise. Anyone can look at the book of Genesis to verify the facts of the matter. Indeed, it is true, based on the book of Genesis, that Ishmael was not a child of promise, but Isaac is a child of promise.

Paul also argues that God is not unjust in electing Jacob over Esau even before the boys were born because God has the right as a creator to elect anyone he wants based on his purpose for each individual. He uses a Potter analogy in his argument.

Now, one might conclude that Paul got his potter analogy from Jeremiah. If that was so, then all we need to do is find Paul's point in Jeremiah. But we don't find Paul's point in Jeremiah. Instead, the Lord is making a completely different point. So we conclude that Paul was not basing his argument on what the Lord said to Israel through Jeremiah.

Your belief is that there is a difference in “faith” of believers that the Apostolic Writers were writing to.

That is a misunderstanding of my view. I would never argue that all believers will have the same experience or outcome because that is different from what the Apostles argue. I explained in my previous posts that the Apostles qualify their statements about perseverance. Paul's statement about perseverance, for instance, is restricted to a subset of believers who each have a unique quality about them.

To qualify a statement means to modify or limit its meaning by adding conditions, exceptions, or restrictions. When Paul qualifies his statements, he provides additional context or specifications to ensure that the statement is accurately conveyed and not misunderstood.

How does Paul qualify his statement about perseverance? Do all believers persevere unto salvation? No. Some believers will fall away; others will not fall away. What makes the difference?

Romans 5:

1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ . . .

I underlined the qualification for emphasis. Does everyone have peace with God? According to Paul, only those justified by faith have peace with God.

2. through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand

The phrase I underlined here is critical to our understanding of Paul's argument. What Paul is about to say in the following verses is restricted to those who take a stand in the grace of Jesus Christ. What he says next is restricted to them alone, not to everyone or all believers.

and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

In his epistle to the Ephesians, Paul exhorts his readers to stand firm in the gospel message. This idiom alludes to the military sense of stand, "hold one's ground against an enemy." Christians are to take a position regarding Jesus Christ and his teaching in opposition to the enemies of the gospel. Here, Paul argues that those who successfully stand in the grace of Christ against all opposition can rightfully boast in the hope of the glory of God. In other words, we can brag that God will grant us the glory we confidently expect.

But who can successfully stand?

3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

The English phrase "proven character" is translated from a Greek word that means "attested." The term refers to the persistence of faith that has been verified through trials and hardships. Those who possess a proven persistence of faith can confidently embrace tribulations, knowing that they will not cause them to fall away. Conversely, if one doubts their faith and worries that tribulations might cause them to fall away, they cannot boast in their trials. A person with an attested faith, however, can be assured that they will not be led astray by tribulations.

Remember, Paul's comments about believers is restricted to those whom God has justified, stand in opposition to the faith, and persist in faith even during trials and tribulations. What accounts for success?

5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

In his writing, Paul refers to the moment when Jesus will come back to be glorified among the saints. During this time, Jesus will reward those who have believed in him and remained his disciples. We are standing firm in the truth of the gospel and placing our hope in his return. When he comes back, God will glorify us and we will become like him. But if we fall away in the meantime, we will be left disappointed, saddened, and let down because we did not receive what we had hoped for.

Paul believed that while some may experience disappointment and defeat, others will survive because God has poured out His Holy Spirit into their hearts. This pouring out of the Holy Spirit removes all contingencies and guarantees the outcome, giving believers confidence and certainty. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the foundation of our security and assurance.

In contrast to your belief, the Apostles’ letters are all addressed to, and directed to, the true Spirit indwelt believers to instruct and warn them to remain faithful to receive eternal life lest they be cut off. While unbelievers may also view Paul's letters, Paul specifically addressed his letters to the true born again Christians.

No, the passages I quoted don't have warnings within them. They are meant to encourage us to persevere under persecution, knowing that those whom God is saving will not fail to save them. He gives us his Holy Spirit as a surety.

That is your belief, but the Apostles taught that God's grace is not by works but by faith (Romans 2:4-5).

No, the Apostles taught that we are saved by grace through faith.

All true believers receive the Holy Spirit.

Right. And all true believers will be saved. They will never fall away.

Whether the Spirit indwelt believers remain in the faith is another matter of concern that the Apostles warned the true Spirit indwelt believers about in their Letters to the Churches.

The Apostles taught that born again, Spirit indwelt believers would not fall away.

The indwelling Spirit does not prevent us from falling away, nor does the Spirit maintain our faith;

I disagree because Peter, Paul and James teach us that those with the indwelling Holy Spirit will not fall away. The power of God keeps them until the day of salvation.

rather, the NT Writers warn that the Spirit indwelt believers are obligated to live by the Spirit to have life.

Your argument relies on "if" statements, which are inherently filled with contingency. But such "if" statements do not defeat or nullify other statements where the Apostles have removed all contingency. Such arguments purposely ignore the power of God and his saving work.

That is what he said, whether you are enabled to accept it or not.

What he said should be understood from within the context where it appears. What is Paul's point in that passage?

God is patient with ALL mankind leading us to repentance; for, God’s kind intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32); however, Paul teaches us that God allows us to make our own choice in the matter, as Paul plainly taught.

I apologize, but where does Paul say that God allows us to make our own choices in the matter? I don't think Paul teaches that. On the contrary, Paul says that our salvation is a matter of God's choice, not our choice.

Romans 9:11-13

. . . for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

Here Paul argues that a Jewish person can not lean on his birthright as a descendant of Abraham, assuming that God will grant the adoption-as-sons to them because they are physically related to Abraham. Only those whom God has chosen will receive the adoption-as-sons so that "God's purpose according to HIS choice would stand."

God's purpose supersedes all else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I believe in Divine Determinism; in that, God has determined to save all those who freely choose to believe in Lord Jesus. And God has determined to judge all those who refuse to believe (John 1:16-18). God has determined that true believers who remain faithful to the end will be permanently saved in His Kingdom.

As I said in a previous post, "If-statements" and warnings are expressions of uncertainty and contingency. However, if we solely focus on these passages and ignore other parts that depict situations where God removes all uncertainty, we will fail to have a balanced view of the overall picture.

In the book of Genesis, the Lord decides to cut a covenant with Abraham. The practice of "cutting" a covenant involves parting animals in half after which both parties walk between the cuttings. But God brought a deep sleep upon Abraham so that he was unable to walk between the cuttings. (Genesis 15) This was to signify that God alone held himself responsible for satisfying the terms of the covenant.

Some promises of God, even those with conditions, are without contingency when God decides to satisfy the contingencies himself. If faith is required, God supplies the faith. If endurance is required, God supplies the endurance. "If-statements" and warnings given to a church at large, do not imply that God is unwilling or unable to keep those whom he has chosen for himself.

Although our faithfulness does not merit our salvation, God counts as worthy to stand before the Son of Man, those who do remain faithful.

And they remain faithful because God has chosen them and exerts his power on their behalf.

We all agree that the hope believers have is in the unfailing promises of God, because God’s promises are true; however, that does not mean that some believers, who presently have this hope, will not later fall away into false doctrine or sinful lusts.

That's right. But God is the one who guarantees to keep those whom he has chosen from falling away.

We all agree that the trials of life prove our faith, but where does Peter say that our faith is guaranteed to endure through these trials?

The Apostles qualify their statements and restrict them to individuals who have unique qualities. You quote 2 Peter 1:8-11, which is an "if-statement" addressing conditions and qualifications for those whom God is saving. However, I pointed you to 1 Peter chapter one, where Peter's message concerns a subset of believers from whom God has removed all contingency. I'm not suggesting that you ignore the "if-statements". I am suggesting you balance them with surety statements. In that chapter, Peter is concerned about those who "were born again into a living hope."

Do you know what a "living" hope is?

Peter explains,

1 Peter 1: 6-7

In this, you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ . . .​

Here Peter indicates the inevitability of dignity for those with a proven faith. If an individual has a proven faith, it is inevitable that the individual will experience praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. The number of those who have a proven faith is not greater than the number of those who will be glorified and honored when Jesus returns. Why did they never fall away? They were protected by the power of God.

If you were reading the context, you would realize this has nothing to do with Paris, or water freezing. Only true believers receive the Spirit.

I understand, but you place a greater emphasis on "believing" than the Apostles do. Belief is necessary, but it is a symptom of a deeper and more profound inner transformation. According to Paul in Romans chapter 2, a "true Jew" is one who is inwardly transformed, and it is this transformation that pleases God. Those who worship God must worship him in mind, heart, soul, and spirit.

Question: Does the Spirit indwell a person because he believes that Paris is the Capital of France, or does the Spirit indwell a True repentant believer in Lord Jesus?

My point centered on the content of belief, specifically, content that challenges my existence. It is relatively easy to believe that Paris is the capital of France. This fact doesn't challenge my integrity, character, or value system. It says nothing about ME, personally. But the idea that I am a damnable sinner, worthy of hell and damnation is a negative remark about who I am. The Bible tells me that I am a sinner from the core of my being and that truth is a derogatory remark aimed directly at me, if I choose to accept the truth about myself.

Understand? It's easy to say, "I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Lord of all and savior of the world" if I don't recognize why I need a savior in the first place. Someone will say, "I understand that Jesus saves sinners but I'm not a sinner. I'm a pretty good guy."

For this reason the markers of the child of God are numerous. Belief is only one indicator. Not only does the child of God believe in God and his son Jesus Christ, the child of God, fears God, loves God, seeks first the kingdom of God, forgives others, loves the brethren, has an honest heart, remains humble, and hopes in glory. And all of this flows outward from a transformed inwardness.

That does not mean Spirit indwelt believers cannot fall away from the faith.

It isn't a matter of ability. According to the Apostles, they don't.

Not according to the Scriptures I quoted for you.

The scriptures you quoted don't nullify the other scriptures indicating the removal of contingency.

Born again Christians can and do fall away

Not according to the Apostles.

, and that is why the Apostles keep warning the Brothers and Sisters in Christ to remain faithful,

The warnings are public, not individual. For those whom God is saving, the warnings become the arena in which to prove faith.

lest they fall away and be cut off. The Spirit will only give eternal life to the Spirit indwelt believer who continually sows to the Spirit without giving up.

Those with an indwelt spirit will never give up. That is the promise.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Can you show me the Scriptures that teach “God exerts his power to maintain our belief? So far, you have provided verses that you say prove this to be true, but, in fact, they only prove God provides the power to be saved by our faith in him.

In my mind, those two ideas are the same idea. If God provides the power to be saved by our faith in him, then it follows that God exerts his power to maintain our faith. If we are left to fall away, then we are maintaining our own faith.

So, show me the Scriptures that plainly teach that God exerts his power to maintain our belief.

The scriptures you quoted prove that God exerts his power to maintain our belief.

I addressed this same question of yours at least 5 times so far. You cannot comprehend the response because your doctrine has veiled your eyes so you cannot see. God's desire is to save all, even those who remain in wickedness (Romans 2:4-5), and God offers his grace of salvation to all (John 3:16); however, God has every right to harden people so they cannot repent and be saved again, either temporarily or permanently, because they continually refused God’s grace, choosing instead to live for their own lusts or their false doctrines.

You didn't address my ACTUAL question because I don't think you understand it. I can only lament over my inability to communicate the idea. I can see that you think what you said makes sense, and is a logical answer but it isn't.

So let me try another tack. Consider the following diagram which shows, in graphic form, what you proposed.

A man stubbornly refuses to repent -->> God hardens his heart -->> a man stubbornly refuses to repent.

What's the difference? Hardening a man's heart seems to be ineffective. In the scenario where God hardens the man's heart, it only shifts the blame from the man to God. In the first case, the man is responsible for his own stubbornness. In the second case, God is responsible, and therefore blameworthy, for the man's lack of repentance. The man deserved blame for his own stubbornness in the first case, but in the second case, it is God who is at fault.

"For someone who believes that human freedom is sacred, it is highly offensive to think that God intervenes in the will of man. Even if it were not offensive, how does it make sense for God, who desires that all individuals come to repentance, to permanently prevent a person from repenting?"

Let's look at Romans 11 again.

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Notice the contrast between "chosen" and "hardened." Paul identifies two circumstances, highlighting the differences between them with respect to God's promise. The individual whom God chose obtained justification, while the individual whom God hardened didn't. Whether or not a person obtained God's justification was always in God's hands. He controlled who would be justified and who wouldn't be justified.

The “Potter and Clay” analogy is the same in "Jeremiah 18" and "Romans 9;" in that; both recognize God’s will to choose whom he will form for blessing or punishment, or for noble or ignoble purposes.

Not only this, but they both exemplify that God creates in real-time. In Jeremiah, he is talking about forming nations and reforming them if they become "spoiled" in the process. In Romans, Paul is talking about forming particular individuals based on his purpose for them. In Jeremiah, the question at hand is whether God has the right to reform a nation that has been "spoiled." In Romans, the question is whether God has the right to punish or reward a person before they have had the ability to do good or evil?

Paul is not contradicting God; rather, Paul is not, at this time, giving a detailed view of God's reasons, which God himself stated in Jeremiah 18, for forming some for blessing and others for punishment.

Paul isn't even making the same point that God made in Jeremiah.

What you are doing, is ignoring God’s reasons for forming some for blessing and others for punishment; and then, you are forcing your own doctrine of “Diving Determinism” into Paul’s writing, as if that is what Paul was teaching of "how" God forms some for blessing and others for punishment.

No, I am understanding each potter analogy within the passage where it appears. God's word in Jeremiah has no bearing on Romans 9.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: Paul would never contradict God.

Agreed, Paul would never contradict God. However, Paul's teaching and commentary are only sometimes based on prior revelation. As an Apostle of Jesus Christ, he has been given spiritual wisdom and insight into the mystery of God's will, which allows him to provide new revelation.

You write that Paul would never contradict God, but yet you want to interpret Romans 9 as if Paul was teaching that God acts according to your doctrine of Divine Determinism. Yet, Paul never taught that God determines everything, including all the choices we make (good or bad) as if this was all in a script. That is your teaching, not Paul’s.

• “Romans 9:6-29” does not teach that God created Esau to hate and Jacob to love.
• “Romans 9:6-29” does not teach us why God hardens some and not others.
• “Romans 9:6-29” does not teach us why God has compassion and mercy on some and not others.

Paul does not explain the reasons “why” God acts in this isolated section of his Letter to the Romans. Since Paul does not describe the reasons God gives for the things he does in this isolated section, you choose to assume and impose your own doctrine of Divine Determinism to explain the “why” irrespective of what Paul taught about the reasons God acts in the rest of his Letter to the Romans, and irrespective of how God himself states as the reasons He does things in the OT.

In other words, there is no Scripture in the entire Bible that states or teaches that God created people to hate or love, or created people’s choices (good or evil) before they were born; rather, you must impose “Divine Determinism” on isolated Scriptures that do not specifically state how or why God acts, completely ignoring all the Scriptures that do give God's reasons for acting.

For instance, God 'shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, and compassion on whom he will show compassion' (Romans 9:15). Regarding salvation, Paul explains that God’s kind intension to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

In addition, God is completely righteous, showing no discrimination or favoritism; God’s wrath is on those who refuse His grace by the Gospel of Christ.

Romans 9:14-15 (WEB) 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

According to God's Word, we access God's saving grace by faith, just as Abraham did.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

To those who believe, God makes promises, but if we fall from the faith, we are cut off from the promises God made to Israel.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Grace is granted to those who have faith. As long as they believe, they continue in the promises God made to believers.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

The drawing is not effectual, for the Word and the Spirit can be resisted and refused.

Acts 7:51 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, {{{you always resist the Holy Spirit!}}} As your fathers did, so you do.


The OT reveals how and why God acts in history

Within “Romans 9:6-29,” Paul either quotes or refers to the OT historical events of God’s dealings with Israel from the OT Scriptures. When we read those OT Scriptures, we understand the reasons why God punished Israel and those in Israel who did not repent. And we understand why, at other times, God blessed Israel, and persons in the OT, who did repent and remain faithful. We also learn why God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

In contrast to Divine Determinism, we learn from all of Paul’s letters that each person is responsible for their own actions before God who judges righteously, and admonishes us to remain in the faith. And Paul actually does plainly teach the reasons “why.”

2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

We already discussed how God commended Job when talking with Satan, and how Job’s choices were completely his own in response to the trials he experienced. Satan lost his challenge to God, because Job did remain faithful through all the trials. And you agreed.

setst777 said: No, the point is that you are in error. Job was faithful because he chose to be faithful.

CadyandZoe said: Okay. But my point centered on God, not Job.

We see that “Divine Determinism” is contrary to the Book of Job, in that, God did not create Job’s choices; rather, God commended Job before Satan for Job’s own faithfulness despite the hardships job was allowed to suffer.

God’s reasons for how he deals with Israel do not support Divine Determinism when you read the history of God’s dealings with Israel. God explained, in “Jeremiah 18:1-12” and “2 Timothy 2:19-22” the reasons why He forms us into vessels for blessing or punishment, which depends on how we respond in His hands.

For those willing to listen to how God explains his actions, I will let God himself explain to you how and why he deals with mankind, which is completely contrary to "Divine Determinism." What does God actually say regarding His righteousness, justice, and mercy?

Ezekiel 18:20-32 (WEB) 19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!"

Considering God’s justice and mercy, we see that God holds everyone accountable for their own actions, and not that God formed some for salvation and others for damnation because of “Divine Determinism.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: The fact is that Paul did give Scripture evidence, referring to the OT, for the whole Gospel revelation he preached about. That is how Paul reasoned with the Jews. If you use a study Bible, you will see all the many OT references Paul made in his Epistles.

I understand. But it doesn't follow that since Paul employs the OT to make theological points, he always does so. Sometimes he doesn't. But when he does, he expects his Jewish readers to open the Bible to the passage at hand and see that his point is supported by the OT passage.

For instance, Paul argues that Isaac, not Ishmael, was a child of promise. Anyone can look at the book of Genesis to verify the facts of the matter. Indeed, it is true, based on the book of Genesis, that Ishmael was not a child of promise, but Isaac is a child of promise.

God elected Isaac, not Ishmael, to be the child of promise, but Paul does not say in Romans 9:6-29 as to “why” God did so. We cannot assume “Divine Determinism” outside of the context of how God explains why he does things. As we read about God’s actions concerning Israel in the OT, we understand that this was God’s prophetic word (what God foresaw) regarding both Isaac and Ishmael, and not that God created them to make the choices they did.

How do I know this? God blessed Isaac because Isaac was faithful to God, even willing to offer up his own son to sacrifice as God ordered him to do. And what did God say in response to Isaac’s faithfulness?

Genesis 22:12 He said, “Don’t lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”

Therefore, God had already elected Isaac because of what God foreknew about him in contrast to creating Isaac’s choices. You will, no doubt, disagree, but that is how God explains himself and how he acts, as we saw by the quotes I already gave, such as: Ezekiel 18:20-32, which I already quoted for you.

Paul also argues that God is not unjust in electing Jacob over Esau even before the boys were born because God has the right as a creator to elect anyone he wants based on his purpose for each individual. He uses a Potter analogy in his argument.

Yes, we agree, and no one would disagree; however, in this section of his Letter, Paul does not give the reasons “why” God elected Jacob. God who sees and knows all things, prophesied regarding Jacob and Esau. God hated Esau, not because God created Esau to hate, which is unjust, but because God foresaw that Esau would disown his own birthright.

Consider again the quote from God, and how God explains his actions as being righteous in “Ezekiel 18:20-32.”

Hebrews 12:15-16 (WEB) 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal.

Notice that Paul is admonishing the Hebrew Christians to be careful so they do not fall short of the grace of God, not to be like “Esau.” Therefore, Paul is not addressing one or more types of Christians; rather, Paul is addressing all the Christians as One Body in Christ, giving them warnings, admonition, and instruction in the faith for their salvation.

Paul never separates the believers he is teaching and admonishing into groups, or types. Rather, Paul addressed all his letters to the Spirit indwelt believers in Christ, and frequently includes himself in the admonitions given.

God does not create anyone to hate, or to persevere, as that would be unjustly showing favoritism and partiality. God certainly can know our choices even before we make them, and God holds us accountable for our own choices. So, the reason Paul admonishes the believers not to be like Esau is because he is trying to convince them to remain faithful, and NOT that God already created them to be faithful.

Peter explains,

1 Peter 1: 6-7
In this, you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ . . .

Peter does not say that their faith that is tested is 'inevitably guaranteed;' rather, he said the following:

"so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, {{{may}}} be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

Peter is not saying their faith is guaranteed or inevitable; rather, through the testing of one's faith, the Christian's faith may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor. While salvation is a guaranteed promise of God, the guarantee is only for those who believe, even until the end. No Scripture in the entire Bible plainly teaches that faith is guaranteed. The continuing warning throughout the Scriptures, even since Cain and Abel, is that we must be careful to remain in the faith to be saved.

Genesis 4:6-7 (WEB) 6 Yahweh said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why has the expression of your face fallen? 7 If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.”

 

[setst777]

The Apostles qualify their statements and restrict them to individuals who have unique qualities. You quote 2 Peter 1:8-11, which is an "if-statement" addressing conditions and qualifications for those whom God is saving. However, I pointed you to 1 Peter chapter one, where Peter's message concerns a subset of believers from whom God has removed all contingency. I'm not suggesting that you ignore the "if-statements". I am suggesting you balance them with surety statements. In that chapter, Peter is concerned about those who "were born again into a living hope."

While the Scriptures teach that those who do remain faithful are saved now; in that, salvation is guaranteed (a present possession) to those who believe, there is no such guarantee for a person’s “faith,” “obedience,” or “endurance.”

The words "may," "might," "if," and "should" are extremely frequent words throughout all the of the NT books directed to believers, showing us that no such guarantee is made by God as to the Christian's faith, obedience, or endurance; rather, the Christian is continually and repeatedly admonished and warned with the words "may," "might," "if," and "should” regarding their faith, obedience, and endurance. These are not words of assurance that their faith will continue, but that "if" they continue.

Faith, endurance, and obedience are, therefore, the responsibility of each believer according to all the Scriptures to receive the saving promises that God guarantees to those who believe.

Hebrews 10:36 (WEB) 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Paul includes himself as those who need to persevere to inherit the promises to which we are called by the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate

Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Near the end of Paul's life, soon before he was martyred, Paul did confess that he did remain faithful to the end.

Paul includes "Timothy," a bishop of a Church, in his warning to remain firm to the end to be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

You will disagree, but you do so in rejection of all the Scriptures to the contrary in every book of the NT.

In the rest of your post, there is no need for me to respond; rather, I direct anyone reading these posts to refer back to my post that “CadyandZoe” responded to, because The Scriptures I quoted plainly teach the opposite of what “CadyandZoe” is stating. For instance,

• “CadyandZoe” still insists that God “exerts his power” so the elect are guaranteed to remain faithful, even though no such Scripture teaches this; rather, just the opposite (2 Peter 1:8-11; Hebrews 10:35-38; Hebrews 3:12-15; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Corinthians 1:27; Romans 11:19-22; etc).
• “CadyandZoe” still insist that a Spirit-indwelt believer will endure, guaranteed, even though Paul plainly taught that each Christian is obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit to receive life from the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4; 12-14; Galatians 5:24-25; Galatians 6:7-9; 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), of which I quoted for “CadyandZoe” numerous times in my responses. In fact, all of the NT is addressed to Spirit-indwelt believers.
• “CadyandZoe” re-defines "all" and "everyone" in Passages like "John 3:16;" "1 Timothy 2:3-6," and "2 Peter 3:9," as if they really didn't mean "everyone" and "all," but only refers to a select number whom God guarantees salvation. However, that is a false doctrine as shown by Passages such as "Romans 2:4-5; Ezekiel 33:11; Ezekiel 18:32; and "Acts 17:30;" in that, God includes those who are wicked as those God is patient with and desires to come to him for salvation, even though they many will resist God and refuse His grace. Therefore, "all" and "everyone" really do refer to all people God desires to save, but many refuse.
• “CadyandZoe” still thinks the “Elect/Chosen” are those whom God created to save guaranteed; however, the plan of God, from the beginning, is to save those who believe (John 3:16) - chosen by faith. Those who remain faithful to the end (2 Peter 1:8-11) will be permanently saved in the Kingdom, for salvation is only for those who believe, which is our responsibility, just as the Scriptures repeatedly teach us about.

2 Peter 1:8-11
(Peter admonishing Elect Believers, who are presently saved by faith, to remain in that faith to the end to receive Eternal Life permanently)
9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Revelation 3:11 (WEB) 11 Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) 11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Not all those presently in "the [definite article] faith" will remain in "the [definite article] faith" to the end; and so, they forfeit the promises made for those who believe.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning the faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Since “CadyandZoe” deliberately rejects and reinterprets the Scriptures given, this person is not worthy of a response any further. Refer back to my previous post for the answers that “CadyandZoe” keeps objecting to and tries to reinterpret with things like "two types" of Christians, and "all" does not really mean "all," and other outlandish assumptions on God's Word, some of which I listed in the above bullet points.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You write that Paul would never contradict God, but yet you want to interpret Romans 9 as if Paul was teaching that God acts according to your doctrine of Divine Determinism.

We follow Paul's argument to it's logical conclusion and draw inferences from what he said. I interpret Paul according to his argument. And I avoid overlaying Jeremiah's prophecy onto Paul's argument because Paul's argument stands on its own. Those who overlay Jeremiah onto Romans 9, will draw the wrong conclusion and obscure what Paul intended to say.

Yet, Paul never taught that God determines everything, including all the choices we make (good or bad) as if this was all in a script.

Paul argued that God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau before the boys were born. God's decision to treat the boys differently did not depend on their actions, good or bad. Instead, God regarded each boy according to his purpose for each boy. One might complain that God's decision is arbitrary and, therefore, unjust. Paul defends God's integrity by pointing out God's transcendent nature as the creator of all that exists. Just as a pot maker has the right to determine whether a pot will be a vase or a toilet, God has the right to determine whether a person will serve to demonstrate God's mercy or serve to demonstrate God's justice. And God behaves toward each individual according to his purpose for that individual.

Although Paul does not explicitly state that God determines everything, including the choices we make, his argument strongly implies this idea. If God is treating each person according to their behavior and choices, then he must wait for them to make choices before he regards them one way or the other. But according to Paul, God is a creator of people not a chooser of people.

Consider the scenario of a woman who visits a hardware store to purchase a pot for her houseplants. She has a specific size, material, and style in mind. She examines all the pots available in the store to find the one that best suits her needs. If she is unable to find what she is looking for, she leaves the store without making a purchase. Essentially, she is selecting a pot from the options that are already created and made available.

Paul explains that God's election is not similar to a woman choosing a pot from the already formed and fired pots. It is not a matter of selection. Instead, God's election is more like creation. A potter doesn't have to go to a store to find a pot that suits his needs. He simply makes a pot that serves his intended purpose. If the potter requires a vase, he creates a vase, and once he forms the vase, he treats it as a vase. Similarly, if the potter needs a toilet, he creates a toilet, and once he forms the toilet, he treats it as a toilet.

The concept of God's election is not based on inspection. If a woman requires a pot, she would go to the store to choose the one that meets her requirements. But when a potter needs a pot, he creates it himself. Those who argue that God's election depends on foreknowledge have not considered this fact. They believe that God looks ahead in time to find those who will choose to believe in him. This approach is similar to the woman going to the store to select a suitable pot. God looks ahead in time to find a suitable person to bless.

God's election doesn't depend on empirical knowledge. Instead of choosing individuals from among all available ones, God creates individuals to serve his purposes and treats them accordingly. Just as a potter creates the pots he needs, God creates the individuals he needs. Not only this, but God creates their stories.

Paul does not explain the reasons “why” God acts in this isolated section of his Letter to the Romans.

On the contrary, he explains that God creates each individual for a specific purpose and then he treats them accordingly. And he sets each individual's purpose beforehand.

Romans 9:22-23

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory . . .​

prepared for destruction . . . prepared beforehand for glory . . .

For instance, God 'shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, and compassion on whom he will show compassion' (Romans 9:15). Regarding salvation, Paul explains that God’s kind intension to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

Here, Paul indicates that God's mercy depends solely on his purpose and not on the merit of others.

In addition, God is completely righteous, showing no discrimination or favoritism; God’s wrath is on those who refuse His grace by the Gospel of Christ.

On the contrary, God's has mercy on whom he will show mercy. Therefore it doesn't depend on whether or not someone refuses his grace. It can't be both ways.

According to God's Word, we access God's saving grace by faith, just as Abraham did.

According to God's word, we are saved by Grace through faith.

To those who believe, God makes promises, but if we fall from the faith, we are cut off from the promises God made to Israel.

God not only makes promises, he loves and hates individual people. "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated." If God loves an individual, he pours out his Holy Spirit into their hearts and this guarantees that they will never fall away.

Grace is granted to those who have faith.

Descriptive not prescriptive.