TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

God elected Isaac, not Ishmael, to be the child of promise, but Paul does not say in Romans 9:6-29 as to “why” God did so.

He most certainly did. As I said in my previous post, God is not like the woman who is selecting pots from among all the available pots. He is a creator of pots, forming them according to the purpose he assigns to them.

Isaac is called the "child of promise" because that is the purpose God assigned to Isaac in order to fulfill his promise to Abraham that he would have an heir from his own body.

Therefore, God had already elected Isaac because of what God foreknew about him

God's election is not a matter of foreknowledge. God is not like the woman who goes to the store looking for a suitable pot for her purposes. God is like the potter who makes a pot suitable for his purposes. God doesn't look ahead in time to find a person to bless. He creates someone to bless.

Paul never separates the believers he is teaching and admonishing into groups, or types. Rather, Paul addressed all his letters to the Spirit indwelt believers in Christ, and frequently includes himself in the admonitions given.

My point remains: One cannot draw conclusions about individuals based on statements made to an audience. But with respect to perseverance, Peter, James, and Paul each claim that particular individuals meeting a small set of criteria can be fully certain of being saved without contingency. This is the good news of the highest quality, which is one reason why Peter says it is more precious than gold.

God does not create anyone to hate, or to persevere, as that would be unjustly showing favoritism and partiality.

Paul answers that question in Romans 9, arguing that God has the right to create anyone he wants for whatever purpose he wants.

God certainly can know our choices even before we make them, and God holds us accountable for our own choices. So, the reason Paul admonishes the believers not to be like Esau is because he is trying to convince them to remain faithful, and NOT that God already created them to be faithful.

Try to resist nullifying the promises made to individual people whom God has born again to a living hope, with generalized warnings and exhortations to groups of people.

Peter does not say that their faith that is tested is 'inevitably guaranteed'

The word "may" in this instance is not intended to indicate contingency.

Peter is not saying their faith is guaranteed or inevitable;

Remember, I argued that Peter is restricting his comments to those whom God has caused to be born again to a living hope. With respect to these particular people, Peter says that the proof of their faith will lead to praise, glory, and honor. Just as gold is durable, a proven faith is durable. Do you see the necessity in Peter's statement? The only people who will have praise, honor and glory when the Lord returns are those with a proven faith, and a proven faith is awarded to those whom God has born again to a living hope.

rather, through the testing of one's faith, the Christian's faith may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor.

Right, it may or may not be found to result in praise, honor and glory. But, with respect to those whom God has caused to be born again to a living hope, their proven faith will be found to result in praise, glory, and honor. All contingency is removed once God has caused a person to be born again to a living hope.

 

[CadyandZoe]

While the Scriptures teach that those who do remain faithful are saved now; in that, salvation is guaranteed (a present possession) to those who believe, there is no such guarantee for a person’s “faith,” “obedience,” or “endurance.”

The guarantee applies to those who have been justified by God, who have a proven faith, who have been born again to a living hope, who have the love of God poured out into their hearts. Salvation is guaranteed to those whom God has granted such blessings.

The words "may," "might," "if," and "should" are extremely frequent words throughout all the of the NT books directed to believers, showing us that no such guarantee is made by God as to the Christian's faith, obedience, or endurance; rather, the Christian is continually and repeatedly admonished and warned with the words "may," "might," "if," and "should” regarding their faith, obedience, and endurance. These are not words of assurance that their faith will continue, but that "if" they continue.

As I suggest, an undue focus on such statements obfuscates clear statements about the power of God unto salvation.

You will disagree, but you do so in rejection of all the Scriptures to the contrary in every book of the NT.

I disagree with your conclusion because you ignore other passages of scripture indicating God's power to remove all contingency from those whom he chooses to save.

Since “CadyandZoe” deliberately rejects and reinterprets the Scriptures given, this person is not worthy of a response any further. Refer back to my previous post for the answers that “CadyandZoe” keeps objecting to and tries to reinterpret with things like "two types" of Christians, and "all" does not really mean "all," and other outlandish assumptions on God's Word, some of which I listed in the above bullet points.

I think a fair review of my responses will show that I have not rejected the Scriptures, I have rejected your conclusions based on your limited selection of verses.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:
You write that Paul would never contradict God, but yet you want to interpret Romans 9 as if Paul was teaching that God acts according to your doctrine of Divine Determinism. Yet, Paul never taught that God determines everything, including all the choices we make (good or bad) as if this was all in a script. That is your teaching, not Paul’s.

• “Romans 9:6-29” does not teach that God created Esau to hate and Jacob to love.
• “Romans 9:6-29” does not teach us why God hardens some and not others.
• “Romans 9:6-29” does not teach us why God has compassion and mercy on some and not others.

Paul does not explain the reasons “why” God acts in this isolated section of his Letter to the Romans. Since Paul does not describe the reasons God gives for the things he does in this isolated section, you choose to assume and impose your own doctrine of Divine Determinism to explain the “why” irrespective of what Paul taught about the reasons God acts in the rest of his Letter to the Romans, and irrespective of how God himself states as the reasons He does things in the OT.

We follow Paul's argument to it's logical conclusion and draw inferences from what he said. I interpret Paul according to his argument. And I avoid overlaying Jeremiah's prophecy onto Paul's argument because Paul's argument stands on its own. Those who overlay Jeremiah onto Romans 9, will draw the wrong conclusion and obscure what Paul intended to say.

We already discussed this. You choose to infer/assume that God created some to hate and others to love, although Paul never taught such a thing in Romans 9 or any of his other Letter, nor did God ever state such a thing.

You choose to infer/assume that God created people to harden, and created people to for the purpose of showing compassion and grace, as if by a Script, but such is never taught by Paul in any of his Letters, nor did God ever state such a thing.

If you want to follow Paul’s argument to its logical conclusion, then read ALL of the Letter of Romans, and then see how Paul himself explains and concludes.

setst777 said: Yet, Paul never taught that God determines everything, including all the choices we make (good or bad) as if this was all in a script.

Paul argued that God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau before the boys were born. God's decision to treat the boys differently did not depend on their actions, good or bad.

We already discussed this.

If you want to say that God revealed that he created people to be good or bad, to hate and to love, to condemn or save, then you have to show where the Scriptures teach this. If you cannot do so, then your argument is against God and His Word. To say that you are assuming or inferring that is how God does things is not proof for your doctrine.

Romans 9:9-13 (WEB) 9 For this is a word of promise, “At the appointed time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” [Genesis 18:10,14] 10 Not only so, but Rebekah also conceived by one, by our father Isaac. 11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]

Paul is saying God has a purpose that He is fulfilling for choosing (election). Nothing in the above verse states anything about God creating people to love or hate, etc. Do you see how you are inferring and assuming your opinions onto God’s Word? That is a dangerous habit because you have to reject all the Scriptures that teach us that the purpose of God is to elect and save whoever believes.

God's election doesn't depend on empirical knowledge. Instead of choosing individuals from among all available ones, God creates individuals to serve his purposes and treats them accordingly. Just as a potter creates the pots he needs, God creates the individuals he needs. Not only this, but God creates their stories.

There is not one Scripture that teaches that the potter forming clay into a vessel has anything to do with creating persons to be wicked or good, or saved or condemned; rather, you are inferring and assuming your doctrine onto the text. God explained, in “Jeremiah 18:1-12” and “2 Timothy 2:19-22” the reasons why He forms us into vessels for blessing or punishment, which depends on how we respond in His hands. I also quoted "Ezekiel 18:20-32," in which God gives his righteous reasons for condemning some and not others.

Does God know our petitions even before we pray for them? Yes.
Did God create us praying what we petitioned? Not in Scripture.

Therefore, the elect individual, who is chosen by grace through faith in His Son, is admonished to make his calling and election sure, and not that God created the elect and guarantees their salvation.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

setst777 said: Paul does not explain the reasons “why” God acts in this isolated section of his Letter to the Romans.

On the contrary, he explains that God creates each individual for a specific purpose and then he treats them accordingly. And he sets each individual's purpose beforehand.

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory . . .

prepared for destruction . . . prepared beforehand for glory . .

It can’t be to the contrary because Paul teaches us that God prepares for destruction those who refuse his grace, and not that God creates people to hate and then sends them to destruction.

Instead of your belief that God creates people to send to destruction, Paul teaches us that God is not willing that "anyone" should perish, not even the wicked; however, the wicked who do refuse God’s grace are storing up for themselves wrath from God on the Day of God’s wrath.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

So you see how your assumptions onto isolated quotes cause you to form false doctrines that contradict God’s Word? You cannot form your own assumptions onto isolated texts outside of the context. You are assuming things according to your own bias.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: For instance, God 'shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, and compassion on whom he will show compassion' (Romans 9:15). Regarding salvation, Paul explains that God’s kind intension to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

Here, Paul indicates that God's mercy depends solely on his purpose and not on the merit of others

We already discussed this. No one denies that God's mercy depends solely on his purpose. What is God's purpose?

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

We are all judged as condemned if we refuse the Gospel invitation (Matthew 22:3), because we all have sinned; but whoever believes is not judged, but instead has eternal life, according to the Scriptures.

A sinner does not merit salvation by his faith, we all agree. Abraham did not merit salvation by faith; rather, Abraham received God's justification, grace, and salvation because he believed God, just as Job believed God, and God commended Job.

God’s plan or purpose is to justify the ungodly, to those who will believe, just as Abraham also accessed God’s grace, and was justified, by his faith in God.

Romans 4:2-5 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

In actuality you are rejecting the Gospel of Christ Jesus (John 3:16-18). Our faith in Lord Jesus does not merit our salvation; rather God offers salvation as a gift to those who do believe, because His Son paid the debt (John 3:16). This is the simple Gospel, but sadly you cannot see it.

setst777 said: In addition, God is completely righteous, showing no discrimination or favoritism; God’s wrath is on those who refuse His grace by the Gospel of Christ.

On the contrary, God's has mercy on whom he will show mercy. Therefore it doesn't depend on whether or not someone refuses his grace. It can't be both ways.

It can't be to the contrary because that is what the Scriptures teach us.

Romans 2:5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God

Matthew 22:3 (NIV) He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NIV) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Acts 7:51 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

You said yourself, "It can't be both ways." I agree. Your doctrine contradicts God's Word.

setst777 said: According to God's Word, we access God's saving grace by faith, just as Abraham did.
According to God's word, we are saved by Grace through faith.

setst777 said: To those who believe, God makes promises, but if we fall from the faith, we are cut off from the promises God made to Israel.

God not only makes promises, he loves and hates individual people. "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated." If God loves an individual, he pours out his Holy Spirit into their hearts and this guarantees that they will never fall away.

We all agree that God love and hates individuals, but you will never understand why God hates some and loves others because you refuse to read the context of why God loves some and hates others, even before they were born.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: Grace is granted to those who have faith.

Descriptive not prescriptive.

It is not for you to throw in the words “descriptive” and “prescriptive,” as James White does, whenever you cannot answer with Scripture.

Descriptive:
Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Prescriptive:
Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring

Descriptive:
Romans 4:2-3 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

Prescriptive:
Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

As for the rest of CadyandZoe’s posts, these are all repeated arguments that have already been answered by Scripture, just as we see in the arguments in this post.

For instance, CadyandZoe still assumes that the Spirit guarantees the faith of those whom the Spirit indwells. However, no Scripture teaches this, and CadyandZoe never provided any Scriptures to review; rather, that is the assumption of the poster.

In contrast, I provided Scripture that clearly refutes those assumptions; in that, the Spirit indwelt believer is obligated to remain faithful to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit to continue to have life in the Spirit. The Spirit will not give eternal life to the Christian who does not continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Not all Spirit-indwelt Christians will remain in the faith and so will not continue to walk or sow to the Spirit. Christians may not remain faithful, demonstrated by refusing to Spirit’s guidance who indwells them; and so, such Christians grieve, quench, insult, reject, lie to, and test the Spirit living in them by faith:

• Grieve the indwelling Spirit (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10);
• Quench the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19);
• Insult/Enrage the indwelling Spirit (Hebrews 10:24-31);
• Reject the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),
• Lie to the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:3),
• Test the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:9)

The Spirit leads as we continue in the faith, diligent to follow the Spirit’s guidance. By refusing to be led by the Spirit into a sanctified life, they show they have fallen. Such Christians are rejecting God (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8). The result of resisting can be eternal punishment if the Christian dies in unrepentance, because God's judgement starts with the Household of God, because they know better, but deliberately continue in sin despite having the Spirit (Hebrews 10:24-30).

Therefore, to anyone reading these posts, I refer you to my posts that CadyandZoe is responding to for my Scriptural responses to the same repetitious biased assumptions that CadyandZoe impose onto the Scriptures founded on the un-Biblical doctrine of “Divine Determinism.

Whatever you decide, after reading the posts, remember that your decisions are your own that you are responsible for before a just and holy God. God did not create your every choice and decision as “Divine Determinism” teaches. God is not responsible for the evil choices you make, as if God created you to make those choices and then condemns you for the choices God created you to make. That is not how God describes His righteous and holy nature. See again how God describes His justice in "Ezekiel 18:20-32."

 

[CadyandZoe]

We already discussed this. You choose to infer/assume that God created some to hate and others to love, although Paul never taught such a thing in Romans 9 or any of his other Letter, nor did God ever state such a thing.

Perhaps you missed a critical aspect of Paul's argument where he asks a rhetorical question. "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?" All Christians and Jews agree that there is no injustice with God. Since we all agree that there is no injustice with God, then Paul's question follows something he said which may lead someone to believe that he thinks God is unjust. What he said earlier raises the issue and for this reason, Paul anticipates the charge and chooses to answer it.

Paul is addressing the concept that you are denying. He asserts that God's treatment of Jacob and Esau was not based on their actions, but on a purpose that God had designed for them before they were even born. According to Paul, God's regard for Jacob and Esau was not a reaction to anything they did, but rather was decided beforehand.

Why would his objectors find this offensive? His opponents will say that Paul's argument for predestination depicts God as arbitrary and unfair. Paul's answer highlights the relationship between a creature and a creator. He adopts a potter analogy to illustrate the difference between selection and election. Those who select a pot from the store are making a choice from all the pots available. But God's election is like a potter who makes a pot. If he needs a vase, he creates a vase to his liking. If he needs a toilet, he creates a toilet to his liking. A creature has no basis for complaint since a pot would never ask, "Why did you make me this way?"

You choose to infer/assume that God created people to harden, and created people to for the purpose of showing compassion and grace, as if by a Script, but such is never taught by Paul in any of his Letters, nor did God ever state such a thing.

The concept of predestination, by definition, implies a script. A common complaint against Calvinism is that predestination is nothing more than fatalism. Calvinism is fatalistic because it doesn't matter what someone does, God has already decided whom to punish and whom to reward based on arbitrary, random reasons.

Biblical predestination is not fatalistic because not only does God predestine a man's destiny, he predestines a man's life story. God predestines one individual to believe in God and Jesus Christ and continue to believe. Then he rewards that individual based on what the individual did. He predestines another man to believe the gospel, but due to trials and tribulations, the man falls away from the faith. God will punish the man according to his decisions.

Since the outcome of the story is appropriate, Biblical predestination is not fatalistic.

If you want to follow Paul’s argument to its logical conclusion, then read ALL of the Letter of Romans, and then see how Paul himself explains and concludes.

Paul makes several arguments in Romans. Each argument stands on its own, though each new rhetorical question follows directly from his previous conclusions.

If you want to say that God revealed that he created people to be good or bad, to hate and to love, to condemn or save, then you have to show where the Scriptures teach this.

Frankly, I have been doing that.

Romans 9:9-13 (WEB) 9 For this is a word of promise, “At the appointed time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” [Genesis 18:10,14] 10 Not only so, but Rebekah also conceived by one, by our father Isaac. 11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]

Paul is saying God has a purpose that He is fulfilling for choosing (election). Nothing in the above verse states anything about God creating people to love or hate, etc.

This is typical of Paul's style of argument, which consists of a sequence of propositions, each building on the previous one. Paul sets out to prove that not only did God choose the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be his "elect," but natural birth is not the criteria he uses to establish who stands to inherit the blessing of Abraham.

He cites God's prophetic word to Rebekah, telling her that "the elder will serve the younger." One might say, "God looked ahead in time to see that the Elder would serve the younger. But this is not what Paul means, because if he did, the statement would remain a non-sequitur and not support his contention that the prophecy proves God's intent. The only way the prophecy proves God's intent is if God is the agent and cause behind the predicted situation.

Do you see how you are inferring and assuming your opinions onto God’s Word?

Inference is the act of drawing conclusions based on existing information or evidence. Drawing an inference from God's word is rational and valid. You may be thinking of "eisegesis," the attempt to insert the interpreter's own ideas into the text.

That is a dangerous habit because you have to reject all the Scriptures that teach us that the purpose of God is to elect and save whoever believes.

I don't reject that idea.

There is not one Scripture that teaches that the potter forming clay into a vessel has anything to do with creating persons to be wicked or good, or saved or condemned; rather, you are inferring and assuming your doctrine onto the text.

Paul's potter analogy illustrates the idea that God is like a potter who established the form of the pot based on the pot's intended use. If a potter needs a vase (honorable use) he creates a vase and treats the vase accordingly. If the potter needs a toilet (dishonorable use) he forms a toilet and treats the toilet as one would expect. The analogy is given to defend Paul's assertion that God's treatment of Jacob (loved) and Esau (hated) was not based on what the men did good or bad. God was treating each man according to the purpose he intended for each man. God assigns everyone a purpose, and he treats them accordingly.

Therefore, the elect individual, who is chosen by grace through faith in His Son, is admonished to make his calling and election sure, and not that God created the elect and guarantees their salvation.

Both are true at the same time.

It can’t be to the contrary because Paul teaches us that God prepares for destruction those who refuse his grace, and not that God creates people to hate and then sends them to destruction.

Paul says God prepared them beforehand. You propose that God prepared them as a consequence of their actions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We already discussed this. No one denies that God's mercy depends solely on his purpose.

You seem to misunderstand what I said. Paul argues that God treats each individual according to his unique purpose for that person.

In actuality you are rejecting the Gospel of Christ Jesus (John 3:16-18).

How so? I think I deserve a reason why you say this.
I don't deny the Gospel of Christ Jesus. I strengthen it. Or at least Peter, Paul, and James do. Your view weakens the gospel since, in your view, no one can know for certain that he or she won't fall away. How is doubt and uncertainty good news? Peter, Paul, and James remove uncertainty, which is good news.

Our faith in Lord Jesus does not merit our salvation; rather God offers salvation as a gift to those who do believe, because His Son paid the debt (John 3:16). This is the simple Gospel, but sadly you cannot see it.

If God doesn't meet the condition, then salvation is based on merit.

We all agree that God love and hates individuals, but you will never understand why God hates some and loves others because you refuse to read the context of why God loves some and hates others, even before they were born.

I thought it was your view that God didn't love or hate anyone before they were born.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is not for you to throw in the words “descriptive” and “prescriptive,” as James White does, whenever you cannot answer with Scripture.

Says who?

Suppose I said, "Anyone with a ticket can board the train." Does that mean someone else cannot buy the ticket for the rider? No, it doesn't. My statement simply implies that possession of a ticket is the only requirement for boarding the train. It doesn't matter who buys the ticket, as long as the rider has it with them.

Suppose we read, "He who endures in belief shall be saved." Does that rule out the idea that God guarantees endurance? No, it doesn't. The statement simply draws a correlation between endurance and salvation. It doesn't rule out the power of God.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: We already discussed this. You choose to infer/assume that God created some to hate and others to love, although Paul never taught such a thing in Romans 9 or any of his other Letter, nor did God ever state such a thing.

Perhaps you missed a critical aspect of Paul's argument where he asks a rhetorical question. "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?" All Christians and Jews agree that there is no injustice with God. Since we all agree that there is no injustice with God, then Paul's question follows something he said which may lead someone to believe that he thinks God is unjust. What he said earlier raises the issue and for this reason, Paul anticipates the charge and chooses to answer it.

Paul is addressing the concept that you are denying. He asserts that God's treatment of Jacob and Esau was not based on their actions, but on a purpose that God had designed for them before they were even born. According to Paul, God's regard for Jacob and Esau was not a reaction to anything they did, but rather was decided beforehand.

God’s election of Jacob and Esau was not for salvation but was according to God's plan and purpose before they were even born.

You infer your assumption in the following:

“According to Paul, God's regard for Jacob and Esau was not a reaction to anything they did, but rather was decided beforehand.”

That is not what Paul stated, so you can’t say, “According to Paul.”

Here is what Paul stated:

Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]

God’s plans for Jacob and Esau, before they were ever born or, as yet, did anything good or bad, is that Jacob would be the one elected through which the promises would come according to God’s plan. The plan of God, according to "Romans 8:11-12," was not to create Jacob to love and Esau to hate; but rather, before they did anything good or bad, God had a plan in mind for the sake of the Gospel. Make careful note of the distinction.

According to Paul, God does not create people to do evil things, and to hate, and then send to hell for that which God created them to do; rather, Paul is careful to teach that God is longsuffering and patient with the wicked, not desiring them to perish but that they should repent and be saved.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

All the Scriptures agree with Paul, and disagree with you.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you refused!

Ezekiel 18:23 “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 (WEB) Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die, house of Israel?”

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

Romans 10:20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

Not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

It is certainly easier to make up your own opinions in contrast to taking the time and effort to study the context of God’s Word for God’s answers, but if you are a true Christian who trembles at God’s Word, then that is what you should desire to do.

Isaiah 66:2 (WEB) For my hand has made all these things, and so all these things came to be,” says Yahweh: “but I will look to this man, even to he who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word.

Notice that, God, who made all things does not say that he created some to be humble and to tremble at His Word; rather, our Creator says that He will look to this man who is humble and trembles at His word.

God does not create people to be good or bad; rather, God looks on the hearts of people and seeks those who are humble to save, and searches the hearts of those who acted with evil intent to punish.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Revelation 2: 23 I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Notice that Lord Jesus did not say he created each one of them to do the deeds they did; rather, he searches their minds and hearts and punishes them according to their deeds.

Psalms 18:27 (NIV) 27 You save the humble but look down on those whose eyes are haughty [proud, arrogant].

Psalms 34:18 Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.

God searches the hearts and minds and seeks to save those who have a broken heart, not that God already created and destined them to be that way.

God searches the hearts and minds and will punish those who are proud and evil, not that God shows favoritism or partiality, already creating many to be evil and send to hell, and some to save.

1 Peter 1:17 (WEB) 17 If you call on him as Father, who {{{without respect of persons}}} judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: You choose, [or as you say God created your choices] to infer/assume that God created people to harden, and created people to for the purpose of showing compassion and grace, as if by a Script, but such is never taught by Paul in any of his Letters, nor did God ever state such a thing.

The concept of predestination, by definition, implies a script. A common complaint against Calvinism is that predestination is nothing more than fatalism. Calvinism is fatalistic because it doesn't matter what someone does, God has already decided whom to punish and whom to reward based on arbitrary, random reasons.

Biblical predestination is not fatalistic because not only does God predestine a man's destiny, he predestines a man's life story. God predestines one individual to believe in God and Jesus Christ and continue to believe. Then he rewards that individual based on what the individual did. He predestines another man to believe the gospel, but due to trials and tribulations, the man falls away from the faith. God will punish the man according to his decisions.

Since the outcome of the story is appropriate, Biblical predestination is not fatalistic.

"Divine Determinism” is fatalistic; therefore, it would follow that predestination, being all determined by God, is fatalistic, all things, all choices, being created by God, according to what God determined.

Your own quotes reveal that you believe in “Divine Determinism.”

CadyandZoe said:
I disagree. The fact that God warns people to repent, doesn't nullify divine determinism.

You have often repeated that God creates our choices, whether good or bad, and that is how you interpret "Romans 9," which is fatalistic – Divine Determinism. Here is what you actually believe without any subterfuge on my part.

CadyandZoe said: If sin came into being then it came into being because God created it.

CadyandZoe said: Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?

CadyandZoe said: The point is that God took responsibility for what Satan did.

CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

CadyandZoe said:
Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained. Paul argues that God is not unjust because God is a creator.

CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

CadyandZoe said:
God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

CadyandZoe said:
Moreover, God doesn't cause or "fore-cause" anything. He speaks things into existence as it is written, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." Everything that comes into being is spoken into existence by the creator.

The Scriptures do not paint “predestination” with such a broad stroke. In contrast to your view of “predestination,” the Bible defines predestination as pertaining to God’s plan to conform the faithful to the Image of Christ, sharing with Christ in salvation (Romans 8:28-29; Ephesians 1:4-5).

God conforms the believer to the image of His Son as the believer remains faithful to put off the old man, and to put on the new man.

Colossians 3:9-12 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

To be conformed to the Image of Christ, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is instruction to believers on how to live out our faith.

Romans 12:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.

Therefore, the Gospel, according to Paul, is that each Christian is to remain in the faith to continue to be conformed to the image of Christ, because many will not remain faithful to do so.

Predestination does not mean “created and guaranteed.”

In contrast to your definition of “predestination,” God’s Word states that the elect individual, who is chosen by grace through faith in His Son, is admonished to make his calling and election sure, and not that God created the elect and guarantees their salvation.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

That is what predestination is, according to the Scriptures. God had predestined to conform to the Image of His Son to the who believe. If a person falls from the faith, and begins again to live for false doctrines and his own lusts, then he is no longer being conformed to the Image of Christ. The Believer must continue in the faith to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Nothing in the word “predestination” infers or implies that God created some to be evil and to be punished in hell, and others to be good and to save. Yes, God has a plan for all of them, the good and the evil, just as he did for Jacob and Esau (John 3:16-18), but God created us in His Image, able to make our own choices, and God holds each person responsible for the choices they make – and that is why we see all the warnings to Christians in every book of the NT.

 

[setst777]

Why would his objectors find this offensive? His opponents will say that Paul's argument for predestination depicts God as arbitrary and unfair.

True, just like you, they misunderstood God’s justice. They could not understand why God formed/prepared them for the destiny they now live out as discipline, so why does God find fault?

However; God can harden whom he desires, and shows mercy on whom he will, and God will elect various individuals for a specific purpose - which are all the ways that God forms us as the Potter who forms the clay. This has nothing to do with God creating us for punishment or blessing before we were born. We learn from God, the Prophets, and the Apostolic Writers that how God chooses to discipline or bless, or use for special purposes, is all dependent on how such persons respond in His hands.

I ask you to take the time to study God’s Word for God’s answers, then you would know “WHY” God forms some to bless and others to condemn. Regarding salvation, God forms for eternal life those who believe in him and continue to believe (John 3:16-18).

The sinful Jews, who were stooped in pride and obstinacy, considered God’s justice to be arbitrary, offensive, and unfair because they felt God formed them for such discipline without just cause.

In contrast to the Jewish reaction, you think that God actually created us to be the way we are before we were born. Amazingly, you think that is perfectly fine that God would actually create people to do evil acts, including the choices that God created in them, and then send them to hell for what God already created them for. That is not what Paul meant in "Romans 9:19-25."

While the Jews bulked at God for punishing them, saying he is unjust, God corrects them, saying that His judgements are not because he created them that way, but it was because of their own sins that they refuse to acknowledge. Therefore, God formed them appropriately according to their works.

Jeremiah 16:10-13 (WEB) 10 It will happen, when you tell this people all these words, and they ask you,

‘Why has Yahweh pronounced all this great evil against us?’ or
‘What is our iniquity?’ or
‘What is our sin that we have committed against Yahweh our God?’

11 then you shall tell them, ‘Because your fathers have forsaken me,’ says Yahweh, ‘and have walked after other gods, have served them, have worshiped them, have forsaken me, and have not kept my law. 12 You have done evil more than your fathers, for behold, you each walk after the stubbornness of his evil heart, so that you don’t listen to me. 13 Therefore I will cast you out of this land into the land that you have not known, neither you nor your fathers. There you will serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favor.’

Paul's answer highlights the relationship between a creature and a creator. He adopts a potter analogy to illustrate the difference between selection and election. Those who select a pot from the store are making a choice from all the pots available. But God's election is like a potter who makes a pot. If he needs a vase, he creates a vase to his liking. If he needs a toilet, he creates a toilet to his liking. A creature has no basis for complaint since a pot would never ask, "Why did you make me this way?"

That is all in your mind, and your analogies are not in the Bible. The Bible never teaches anywhere that God created people to be evil, to do all the evil God destined for them, and then to condemn them to hell for that which God created them to do. No such Scripture.

setst777 said: Therefore, the elect individual, who is chosen by grace through faith in His Son, is admonished to make his calling and election sure, and not that God created the elect and guarantees their salvation.

Both are true at the same time.

That is a doozy of a statement that I will not forget.

It is one or the other, “It can’t be both ways” as you stated:

CadyandZoe said: On the contrary, God's has mercy on whom he will show mercy. Therefore it doesn't depend on whether or not someone refuses his grace. It can't be both ways.

Now you want to change your mind, but by doing so, you make God out to have a multiple personality disorder. God never contradicts himself.

setst777 said: It can’t be to the contrary because Paul teaches us that God prepares for destruction those who refuse his grace, and not that God creates people to hate and then sends them to destruction.

Paul says God prepared them beforehand. You propose that God prepared them as a consequence of their actions.

Paul does not say he created people to suffer his wrath beforehand; rather, God prepared as vessels of destruction those who deserved his wrath resisting God, even though he was patient with them.

Romans 9:21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath {{{prepared}}} for destruction

Nothing in "Romans 9:21-22" is teaching that God created these people beforehand to suffer wrath.

The Greek word for “prepared” is a completely different word from “created.”

The word for “were created” in Greek is “ektisthē,” and is the past tense act of to build, form, or shape, [Strongs #2936: ktizó]. “Ektisthē” is only used for God, who created [ektisthē] all things. God alone is Creator. All the tense forms of “ktizó” mean the same thing: to fabricate, build, form, or shape. Jehovah states that he formed all things with his own hands (Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 48:13).

In contrast to “created” [form, build, or shape] the word “Prepared” [katartízō] means the following:

Prepared: 2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, Definition: to complete, prepare, adjust)

God prepared or adjusted for destruction those who were objects of God’s wrath, having resisted God time and again, although God was patient with them.

“Romans 9:21-22” is the same thing Paul taught to Timothy in “2 Timothy 2:19-22” as follows:

2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Paul taught the same thing in “Romans 2:4-5”

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

And that is exactly how God states that he forms the clay in “Jeremiah 18:1-12.”

Regarding God forming vessels into honor or dishonor depending on how they respond, God plainly teaches us how he displays his justice and mercy in “Ezekiel 18:20-22.” Notice that God is patient, not willing that they perish, but those who deliberately continue to do that which is evil will face God’s wrath - destruction. That is our righteous God straight from God himself in “Ezekiel 18:20-32.”

Considering God’s justice and mercy, we see that God holds everyone accountable for their own actions, and not that God formed some for salvation and others for damnation because of “Divine Determinism.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: In actuality you are rejecting the Gospel of Christ Jesus (John 3:16-18).

How so? I think I deserve a reason why you say this.
I don't deny the Gospel of Christ Jesus. I strengthen it. Or at least Peter, Paul, and James do. Your view weakens the gospel since, in your view, no one can know for certain that he or she won't fall away. How is doubt and uncertainty good news? Peter, Paul, and James remove uncertainty, which is good news.

You do deserve a reason why, and you shall get it.
I did not say that you reject the Gospel of Christ lightly; but rather, I said that after careful consideration of what you wrote in your responses. So, I am glad you asked that question, because this is the key to understanding how flawed your doctrine of “Divine Determinism” is in contrast to the Gospel of Christ.

For instance: What you just wrote is part of the reason you reject the Gospel, as follows:

• “Your view weakens the gospel since, in your view, no one can know for certain that he or she won't fall away. How is doubt and uncertainty good news?”
• Another reason you reject the Gospel is your belief in “Divine Determinism” which the Gospel does not teach; rather, God’s good pleasure is to save those who believe (1 Corinthians 1:21; John 3:16).
• Lastly, you adamantly proclaim that if our faith is necessary to gain access to God’s grace then it would a work that merits salvation, which contradicts all of Paul’s Gospel teaching on faith vs. works; in that, our faith in Christ, not being a work, does not merit God’s grace onto salvation (Romans 4:1-25); rather, we gain access to God’s grace through faith (Romans 5:1-2).

In all honesty, you reject all these Gospel truths essential for salvation, even though I quoted these Scriptures to you repeatedly. You cannot say that is not true, because it is.

God’s promises are guaranteed, but only for those who believe and remain in the faith, according to Peter, Paul, and James.

Here is what Peter wrote about our certainty in his teaching of the Gospel that, in all honesty, you continually reject.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Here is what Paul taught regarding our certainty in the Gospel, which you, in all honesty, continually reject:

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate

Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Shortly before Paul’s martyrdom, only then was he sure that he fought the good fight of faith, he stayed the course, and so, was assured that God would save him (2 Timothy 4:7). Was Paul certain that his faith was guaranteed throughout his ministry? No.

Sinners are called to Christ by the Gospel (Luke 5:32). Those who believe are saved, but not everyone will continue to believe as the Gospel defines “believe” (Matthew 28:19-20; John 10:26-29; Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 John 6-7).

Let us continue to view Paul’s teaching regarding “certainty” of our faith.

Make note of the fact that Paul addressed all his Letters to the born again believers, not false believers. The faith being discussed is a genuine faith – {{{THE}}} Faith. “THE” is a definite article, showing that the faith being discussed is the genuine faith of the Gospel.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{the faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{the faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{the faith}}}.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB) 18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they {{{may}}} lay hold of eternal life.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Romans 8:12-14 (ENIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 (WEB) 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 (WEB) 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

I continue to quote Paul in the following post, showing that the Gospel he taught us does not teach that our faith is secure/guaranteed; rather salvation is guaranteed to those who believe.

 

[setst777]

Continuation of teaching from the Apostle Paul about our security in the faith…

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters [Christians], lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we [brothers and sisters, which includes the Apostle Paul] have become partakers of Christ, if we [Paul includes himself] hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let {{{us}}} [Paul includes himself] fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a {{promise of entering}} into {{His Rest.}}

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) 11 Let {{{us}}} [Paul includes himself] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 10:26 (WEB) 26 For if {{{we}}} [Christians, including Paul] deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins [Hebrews 10:24-31]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive The Promise

Hebrews 12:14-16 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal.

Here is what James taught regarding the Gospel, and whether our faith was guaranteed:

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him. …16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

You also reject what Lord Jesus taught concerning the Gospel, because you deny that it always remains up to each believer to remain in the faith to the end to receive the promised guarantee of salvation to those who believe.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Revelation 3:11 (WEB) 11 Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB) 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

setst777 said: Our faith in Lord Jesus does not merit our salvation; rather God offers salvation as a gift to those who do believe, because His Son paid the debt (John 3:16). This is the simple Gospel, but sadly you cannot see it.

If God doesn't meet the condition, then salvation is based on merit.

That is your assumption you are inferring onto the Gospel, but the Gospel teaches that God’s good pleasure is to save those who believe, and that, our faith is not a work that merits salvation – the Scriptures which you keep rejecting.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 4:2-5 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

I expect that you will reject, ignore, and try to reinterpret all these Scriptures with words such as, “’all these warnings are for those with a certain type of faith’

CadyandZoe said: You misunderstand what Paul is saying to Timothy. Paul is not saying that God desires that every person be saved. No. Paul is saying that certain types of people will not be left out.

Or ‘the warnings do not mean we have a choice,’ even though the warnings are given to the Christians to follow.

CadyandZoe said: That isn't true. Your conclusion isn't supported by the scriptures. Does God warn, yes. Does his warning imply or infer that the choice is left to them? No.

In answer to your question in the last quote:

Obviously yes, if the believer is continually admonished, direct, and warned to remain in the faith, then it is obviously up to the believer to choose to remain faithful or not.

In fact, Paul plainly stated that Spirit-indwelt Christians were obligated to live by the Spirit to have life, which necessarily means that the choice and responsibility to continue to live by the Spirit is totally on them.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The Spirit leads, but we must follow, and not everyone will follow; rather they will quench and insult the Spirit which can lead to eternal punishment (Hebrews 10:29-31).

Paul reasoned with the Jews in their synagogues to try and convince them, which means Paul was appealing to their choice to believe or not.

Acts 17:2-4 (WEB) 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

Paul also said that he has become all things to all people so that, perchance, he may save some. So, Paul was again appealing to the ability to choose, and tried to convince them by all means possible.

1 Corinthians 9:22 (WEB) To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.

Did God foreknow that they would believe? The answer is "yes," but that does not mean God created them to believe. All the Scriptures deny that God created us repenting or believing, as you stated:

CadyandZoe said: No, God creates people repenting.

CadyandZoe said: It doesn't follow from the fact that God commands people to repent, that he doesn't create them repenting.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: We all agree that God loves and hates individuals, but you will never understand why God hates some and loves others because you refuse to read the context of why God loves some and hates others, even before they were born.

I thought it was your view that God didn't love or hate anyone before they were born.

You thought wrong. As I have repeatedly stated, God foreknows us, and foresees us, and He also searches our minds and hearts; and so, according to His plan of Salvation, he acts on certain people whom he foreknew to work his plan of Salvation for all sinners, so that everyone who believes may be saved (John 3:16-18).

setst777 said: It is not for you to throw in the words “descriptive” and “prescriptive,” as James White does, whenever you cannot answer with Scripture.

Says who?

I gave you Biblical examples from Paul for what is “descriptive” and “prescriptive” regarding the Gospel, and you ignore it, giving me un-Biblical examples instead. Do you really have so little value for God’s Word?

It is not for you to throw in the words “descriptive” and “prescriptive,” as James White does, whenever you cannot answer with Scripture.

Descriptive:
Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Prescriptive:
Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring

Descriptive:
Romans 4:2-3 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

Prescriptive:
Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Suppose we read, "He who endures in belief shall be saved." Does that rule out the idea that God guarantees endurance? No, it doesn't. The statement simply draws a correlation between endurance and salvation. It doesn't rule out the power of God.

It means the same thing. To say, "He who endures in belief shall be saved," means that it is the obligation of the believer to endure in his belief to be saved. Not all Christians will endure in belief, and so, they do not remain saved, because salvation is only granted to those who believe.

The Promise and Grace of God are both by faith, the same faith Abraham had in God.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life

The Scriptures, which are directed to true believers, state that we have our access to God’s grace {{{through faith}}}.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are justified by our faith in Lord Jesus, just as Abraham was.

Romans 4:3 (WEB) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Good thing the Lord gives man free will so man is without excuse (Romans 1:20)

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God’s election of Jacob and Esau was not for salvation but was according to God's plan and purpose before they were even born.

On the contrary, Paul's point was to show that God's regard for the boys, Jacob (love) and Esau (hate) was not a reaction to their respective decisions. God's regard for the boys was decided before they were born. This is a problem for your view since you think God's regard for us is in response to our decision to believe the Gospel -- decisions we make after we are born.

In his argument for "adoption as sons," Paul's statement is strictly related to the issue of salvation. Paul is defending his gospel against an objection one might raise based on the fact that, according to him, the adoption as sons is only for his kinsmen according to the flesh. Chapter 9 indicates that the adoption as sons is not given in response to our decisions, positive or negative, and neither is it based on heredity. God decides who to save before we are even born.

That is not what Paul stated, so you can’t say, “According to Paul.”
Here is what Paul stated:

Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]

All I can do is point it out to you again.

The passage clearly states that God's favor towards the twin brothers, Jacob and Esau, was predetermined before their birth. Paul also emphasizes that God's favor was not based on their actions or deeds. This means that God's favor towards them was not a result of anything they did, but rather a part of God's plan and purpose.

According to Paul, God does not create people to do evil things, and to hate, and then send to hell for that which God created them to do; rather, Paul is careful to teach that God is longsuffering and patient with the wicked, not desiring them to perish but that they should repent and be saved.

On the contrary, the potter analogy highlights God's standpoint. He is not like an individual who selects pots from all those available. He is like a potter who creates pots for a purpose. If a potter needs a vase, he creates a vase and uses it for that purpose. If a potter needs a toilet, he creates a toilet and treats the toilet as one would expect. As all of us creators say, "form fits function."

Analog:
Form: Vase
Function: to hold flowers

Form: Toilet
Function: what people do with toilets.

Romans 9:22-23

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. ​

Target:
Form: vessel of wrath
Function: prepared for destruction

Form: vessel of mercy
Function: prepared for glory.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

Those who are stubborn of heart are vessels prepared for destruction.

Not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

Not according to Paul. He addresses your objection beginning in Romans 9:19, "For who resists his will?"

Notice that, God, who made all things does not say that he created some to be humble and to tremble at His Word; rather, our Creator says that He will look to this man who is humble and trembles at His word.

God is the one who creates the humble heart -- >> prepared for mercy.

God does not create people to be good or bad; rather, God looks on the hearts of people and seeks those who are humble to save, and searches the hearts of those who acted with evil intent to punish.

Same as above. God creates the heart.

Notice that Lord Jesus did not say he created each one of them to do the deeds they did; rather, he searches their minds and hearts and punishes them according to their deeds.

Why does it say that he searches their minds and hearts? That should be a big red flag for your view. Right? If God will punish them according to their deeds alone, then why search the minds and hearts?

God searches the hearts and minds and seeks to save those who have a broken heart, not that God already created and destined them to be that way.

Why can't it be both?

God searches the hearts and minds and will punish those who are proud and evil, not that God shows favoritism or partiality, already creating many to be evil and send to hell, and some to save.

God doesn't show favoritism or partiality because, as I pointed out earlier, God is not like the individual who goes to the store to buy a pot. He is like the potter who forms a pot according to its intended function. Only a selector or a judge is subjected to bias. Paul argues that God is a creator, not a selector. He doesn't select people he creates them to serve a purpose.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"Divine Determinism” is fatalistic;

Divine determinism is not fatalistic because fatalism suggests that the outcome is not tied to our actions. Divine determinism posits that God not only creates human beings, but also determines their history. In this view, God is like a master storyteller who crafts a tale where the outcome follows logically from the actions and decisions of individuals.

Your own quotes reveal that you believe in “Divine Determinism.”

Tell me something new.

The Scriptures do not paint “predestination” with such a broad stroke. In contrast to your view of “predestination,” the Bible defines predestination as pertaining to God’s plan to conform the faithful to the Image of Christ, sharing with Christ in salvation (Romans 8:28-29; Ephesians 1:4-5).

What does this "conforming" look like? In your view, God isn't conforming anything. Human beings do that all by themselves.

God conforms the believer to the image of His Son as the believer remains faithful to put off the old man, and to put on the new man.

How does God conform someone if he doesn't transform, change, modify, and/or adjust the inwardness of a person? Think about it, In essence, in order to save someone God must violate that person's will.

To be conformed to the Image of Christ, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is instruction to believers on how to live out our faith.

No, being conformed to the image of Christ is not a matter of education or training. Conforming involves a profound alteration and change of inwardness resulting in a significant difference between where a person started and where they will end up. This is consistent with my earlier point that God guarantees salvation by causing a person to be born again to a new hope.

That is what predestination is, according to the Scriptures.

On the contrary, predestination is fixing the course of events and outcomes according to God's eternal decree.

 

[CadyandZoe]

True, just like you, they misunderstood God’s justice.

No, Paul isn't talking about mercy, justice or punishment in that chapter. Remember, God's regard for Jacob and Esau was decided before the boys did good or bad. It is evident from Paul's observation that God might appear to prejudge the boys since his regard for them was not based on anything they did. It appears as if God formed his opinion prematurely or without sufficient examination. Paul's answer is to reframe the question in terms of God's role as creator, rather than his role as judge. The two roles have a completely different logic.

A judge decides the culpablity of someone who has done good or bad, and treats the accused accordingly. But a creator decides the purpose of a person and treats the creature accordingly.

However; God can harden whom he desires, and shows mercy on whom he will, and God will elect various individuals for a specific purpose - which are all the ways that God forms us as the Potter who forms the clay. This has nothing to do with God creating us for punishment or blessing before we were born.

On the contrary, God is not a selector, he is a creator. God makes a priori decisions to harden or bless.

We learn from God, the Prophets, and the Apostolic Writers that how God chooses to discipline or bless, or use for special purposes, is all dependent on how such persons respond in His hands.

Jeremiah was not talking about individuals, he was talking about nations.

I ask you to take the time to study God’s Word for God’s answers, then you would know “WHY” God forms some to bless and others to condemn.

If God is forming a person, that person's form is incomplete. Therefore, God is not able to make a posteriori decision to bless or condemn them.

Regarding salvation, God forms for eternal life those who believe in him and continue to believe (John 3:16-18).

Agreed, but salvation is not a response to belief. God saves those that believe, and remain, yes, but belief and endurance are both gifts of God.

Romans 5:15

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.​

How is the gift not like the transgression? The transgression is adjudicated and punished. And if punished, the offender is getting what he deserved. But the gift does not follow that logic. The gift is by Grace and the offender is not getting what he deserved. His transgressions are overlooked and he is treated with favor and kindness in spite of his offence.

The point is, God is not rewarding our belief with salvation, giving us what we deserve. One could ask, why is God treating me differently than my neighbor? One might conclude that God is treating me differently because I believe in him while my neighbor does not. I am being rewarded for something I did that my neighbor didn't do.

But Paul argues that the gift is NOT like the transgression. If we think that my belief obligated God to forgive me and reward me with eternal life that would be a grave error. Belief is not the prerequisite to eternal life. Belief is evidence of justification. God's inner work takes place first.

In contrast to the Jewish reaction, you think that God actually created us to be the way we are before we were born. Amazingly, you think that is perfectly fine that God would actually create people to do evil acts, including the choices that God created in them, and then send them to hell for what God already created them for.

Think about this. If God didn't create such people, they wouldn't exist. The contradistinction of creation is non-existence.

That is all in your mind, and your analogies are not in the Bible. The Bible never teaches anywhere that God created people to be evil, to do all the evil God destined for them, and then to condemn them to hell for that which God created them to do. No such Scripture.

Romans 9.

Paul does not say he created people to suffer his wrath beforehand; rather, God prepared as vessels of destruction those who deserved his wrath resisting God, even though he was patient with them.

Preparation is an act of creation. Remember, Paul's defense amounts to a change of perspective where he reframes the issue. He focuses on God's role as creator instead of his role as judge. Putting words into the mouth of a pot, he posits, "The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?" The issue at hand is design and form, not on behavior or attitude. If a manufacturer is making tea-pots, he will supply them with spouts and handles. The tea-pot might say, "why did you give me a spout and handle? but his question answers itself. He has a spout and handle because that form is suitable for brewing and serving tea. The form of an item fits the function of the item.

Paul argues that just as a potter gives form to a pot according to its intended function, God gives a person form according his intended function of that individual.

Romans 9:21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath {{{prepared}}} for destruction

Nothing in "Romans 9:21-22" is teaching that God created these people beforehand to suffer wrath.

The Greek word for “prepared” is a completely different word from “created.”

Is there something wrong with your logic? If a potter creates a pot and gives it a form suitable for use as a water bottle, the pot was preprepared beforehand for that use. And it is appropriate to treat the pot as a water bottle after the pot is formed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You thought wrong. As I have repeatedly stated, God foreknows us, and foresees us, and He also searches our minds and hearts; and so, according to His plan of Salvation, he acts on certain people whom he foreknew to work his plan of Salvation for all sinners, so that everyone who believes may be saved (John 3:16-18).

I previously argued that foreknowledge isn't the way you say it is. And this is a problem for your view. Again we go back to Paul's potter analogy, where he dismisses the concept of "selection."

I posited that "selection" is like a woman who goes to the store to find a pot that will suit her purpose.

Before I run though this again, I should point out that "foreknowledge", the way you describe it, is nothing if it isn't information obtained by observation. According to this view, God looks ahead at the behavior of individuals and he decides how to treat them based on what he sees.

If a woman goes to the store to see what kinds of pots are available, her choice is based on what she sees. Her knowledge of the pots is empirical knowledge, derived from observation. Her selection is limited to what she sees. If God decides how to regard someone based on his foreknowledge, his knowledge is also empirical knowledge. His choice is based on what he sees.

But Paul likens God to a potter, who forms a pot from his own imagination to serve the purpose he assigns to it. "Form follows function: is a design principle that suggests the shape or structure of an object should be determined by its intended purpose or function. In other words, the design of something should align with its practical use. This concept is often associated with architecture and industrial design.

God isn't selecting pots from those available, he is creating new pots once he has established their intended purpose.

I gave you Biblical examples from Paul for what is “descriptive” and “prescriptive” regarding the Gospel, and you ignore it, giving me un-Biblical examples instead. Do you really have so little value for God’s Word?

The Promise and Grace of God are both by faith, the same faith Abraham had in God.

I understand that. But contrary to your interpretation, "by faith" doesn't mean "because of faith."

Observe Paul's language in his epistle to the Ephesians.

Ephesians 1:7-9

so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

In Romans, Paul contrasts works with faith when the matter centers on the attainment of God's justification. How and why is justification accredited? In that context he points out, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due." Any view of faith that depicts faith as the means to a wage is erroneous. The opposite of "wage" is "grace."

So then, when Paul says that salvation is by faith, he doesn't mean to say that salvation is our wage in exchange for our faith. We aren't saved because of our faith. Rather, we are saved by grace through faith because faith itself is a gift of God.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: God’s election of Jacob and Esau was not for salvation but was according to God's plan and purpose before they were even born.

On the contrary, Paul's point was to show that God's regard for the boys, Jacob (love) and Esau (hate) was not a reaction to their respective decisions. God's regard for the boys was decided before they were born.

We all agree that “God's regard for the boys was decided before they were born,” which was according to God’s plan. However, “Romans 9:9-13” does not state that God’s decision and plan was to create the boys to be good or bad, or to hate or love. All those verses state is that, before they were born, God already had a Plan.

Romans 9:9 For this is a word of promise, “At the appointed time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” [Genesis 18:10,14] 10 Not only so, but Rebekah also conceived by one, by our father Isaac. 11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]

Nothing in those verses state that God created some to be good or bad, or created Jacob to love and Esau to hate. God chose Jacob, not for salvation, but as the one through whom the promise would come, which, as Paul concludes, is by faith, not by works (Romans 9:30-32).

This is a problem for your view since you think God's regard for us is in response to our decision to believe the Gospel -- decisions we make after we are born.

You believe that our decision to believe the Gospel after we are born is all God doing, having created some to believe and be saved, and others to hate and condemn, before being born. That is not what “Romans 9” states anywhere; rather, that is your assumption.

In his argument for "adoption as sons," Paul's statement is strictly related to the issue of salvation. Paul is defending his gospel against an objection one might raise based on the fact that, according to him, the adoption as sons is only for his kinsmen according to the flesh. Chapter 9 indicates that the adoption as sons is not given in response to our decisions, positive or negative, and neither is it based on heredity. God decides who to save before we are even born.

You are mixing up two different "events" of Paul's teaching.

1st event:

True, Paul did state that being adopted as sons of God was not for all Jews just because they are physically from the seed of Abraham, but that the true sons of God are those of the Promise, which Paul defines is by faith, not works, as Paul concludes in “Romans 9:30-32.”

Therefore, “Romans 9” is not saying God created Jacob to save; rather, Paul is teaching that God had planned that, through Jacob, the Promise, “children of the promise” (Romans 9:8) [Which is by faith not works: Romans 9:30-32], would come.

Romans 9:6-“8” (WEB) 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the {{{children of the promise}}} (Romans 9:8) are counted as heirs.

2nd event:

Before Jacob and Esau did anything good or bad, God had already planned that, through Jacob, “The Promise: Romans 9:8” would come. The Plan is not to create Jacob to love and do good, and Esau to hate and to evil, or to create Jacob to save and to create Esau to be condemned. Why? The reason is because that is not what Paul is teaching “Romans 9:9-13,” nor anywhere else in the entire Bible.

If you object, then show me in the actual text where it states that the plan of God was to create Jacob to love and do good, and Esau to hate and to evil, or to create Jacob to save and to create Esau to be condemned.

setst777 said: That is not what Paul stated, so you can’t say, “According to Paul.”
Here is what Paul stated:

Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]

Paul also emphasizes that God's favor was not based on their actions or deeds. This means that God's favor towards them was not a result of anything they did, but rather a part of God's plan and purpose.

Your conclusion is an error. “Romans 9:11-13” does not state that God’s favor was not based on their actions or deeds; rather, what the verses plainly state is that, before they did anything good or bad, God planned for Jacob to the be one through whom “The Promise,” would come, which is by faith, as Paul concludes in (Romans 9:30-32).

setst777 said: Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

Those who are stubborn of heart are vessels prepared for destruction.

Exactly! But do you really understand what you just stated, because you just denied everything you stated previously.

setst777 said: Not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

Not according to Paul. He addresses your objection beginning in Romans 9:19, "For who resists his will?"

Yes, according to Paul:

God prepares for destruction those who are objects of His wrath (those who do evil) even though he was patient.
God appoints beforehand for glory those who will believe.

Romans 9:19-22 (WEB)
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared/fitted/adjusted [2675 katartízō] for destruction,

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared/appointed/predestined [2675 proetoimázō] beforehand for glory

“In Romans 9:22,” the word for “prepared” is “2675 katartízō,” which means, “having prepared/fitted/adjusted. God prepares (not created) for destruction those who, in spite of God’s patience, resisted God’s patience, doing evil.

Verse 23 uses a completely different word for “prepared” which is defined as follows:

Prepare 4282 proetoimázō: To prepare or appoint beforehand, to predestine

God has appointed or predestined for glory ahead of time those who have faith, as Paul concludes in “Romans 9:30-32.”

setst777 said: Notice that, God, who made all things does not say that he created some to be humble and to tremble at His Word; rather, our Creator says that He will look to this man who is humble and trembles at His word.

God is the one who creates the humble heart -- >> prepared for mercy.

God prepares for mercy those who have a humble heart, but God did not create in them a humble heart. There are no Scriptures stating that God creates the humble heart in a person; so, this is another one of your assumptions that you impose on the Scriptures.