TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

Pick whatever word works best for you.

Your assertion is that God made man so he would sin. Like me making a car that can only drive in a circle. Am I forcing the car to drive in a circle? No? I just made it that way, but it's doing what it wants? No. A rose by any other name . . .

Much love!

I get your argument.

Coincidentally, I just received a paper written by Earl Craig wherein he explicates Paul's argument very well. May I quote a small section of it here?

Earle explains the moral dilemma here.

How can God “blame people for their evil, for who has ever resisted His will?” If someone puts a gun in my hand and forces me to pull the trigger so that I kill another human being, certainly I am not the one who actually shoots him. The person who caused me to pull the trigger made me do it. Therefore, he is accountable and to be blamed, not me. This line of reasoning is very logical and commonsensical. In the same way, we would think that, if God puts my choices in my mind and will so that He causes me to choose them, does not the same logic apply? I am not to blame for my choices. He is—it would seem.

As I understand it, this summarizes your objection. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

Earle explains Paul's answer in the quotation below.

But Paul offers a different answer in v. 20, “On the contrary O man, who are you, the one who is defending himself against God?” Depending on how this question is translated from the Greek text, it can sound as though Paul is rebuking anyone simply for asking, “God, how can you hold me accountable for my choices if You are the one who is primarily causing them?” In other words, who has the right to object to what God is doing and how He does it, so that it is evil even to ask the question? However, another way to interpret Paul is to hear him saying that he wants us human beings to consider carefully exactly “who [we] are” as creatures of God in the midst of our “defending” ourselves “against” Him. Paul goes on to claim that each one of us is a “thing which is molded,” while God is “the molder.” He wants us to imagine what it would be like for a lump of clay on a potter’s wheel all of a sudden to speak to the potter and ask indignantly, “Why did you make me like this?” The wheel is turning with the clay in the middle, and the potter with his hands is shaping it exactly how he wants. And suddenly the clay cries out and objects to how the potter is forming it. Does this make sense, that the clay should speak and has the right to question the potter who is making it into what he wants? Obviously not. Consequently, Paul’s point is that it is completely irrational and inappropriate for a lump of clay to address its potter in this manner.

Likewise, it makes no sense that we would address the same kind of question to God, “Why did you make me like Esau, to whom You are not committed to fulfill Your promises to Abraham, instead of like Jacob, to whom You are committed to fulfill these promises?” On one level, our existential level as human beings, we naturally think that we have the right to determine completely what choices we make and exactly what kind of person we choose to be, so that no one else has the right or authority to tell us what to think, feel, or do. Nevertheless, there is another level of reality that it is at work in our existences as human beings and that is completely different. This is the level of the sovereign God, who is the uncreated and transcendent author of all the created reality. And Paul likens Him to a potter and us to a lump of clay on His potter’s wheel. And what do we naturally grant the potter who is shaping the clay on his wheel? The absolute right to mold it exactly as he desires.

Therefore, the analogy is that God has the transcendent right to make us the kind of human beings that He wants—either to be like Esau and Pharaoh, who may end up persistent rebels against God and who experience His wrath and destruction, or to be like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who end up (like Paul) believing in God and enjoying the fulfillment of His two promises.

Hopefully, this helps.

 

[marks]

Hopefully, this helps.

Likewise, it makes no sense that we would address the same kind of question to God, “Why did you make me like Esau, to whom You are not committed to fulfill Your promises to Abraham, instead of like Jacob, to whom You are committed to fulfill these promises?”

This is the right question, since this is what Paul was talking about, not, "why did you create for the purpose of doing evil?"

I can ask, why did you make me this way? But "this way" doesn't mean I cannot accept God's honest and real - not lies!! God does not lie!! - invitation to "come to Me all who are weary".

God chose Abraham, but not all his children. Isaac, but not all his children. Jacob, but not all of his children either. And you don't get to choose whether you are this group or that group.

Romans 9:18 KJV
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And to whom does God will to show mercy? Keep reading . . .

Romans 11:32 KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It all works together, and not requiring that you overthrow the meaning of one part because of how you understand another part.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Therefore, you are giving a meaning to "Transcendence" that is all of your own making according to your own personal assumptions.

Okay, let's look a verse from the Bible.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you . . .​

Did God form Jeremiah in his mother's womb or no?

Psalm 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.​

Did God form the Psalmist's inward parts?

Both the imperfect and aorist tenses describe actions of the PAST TENSE.

Grammarians define the aorist tense as "simple past tense." But do you know why they say it's "simple?"

The simple past tense can refer to preceding events, not just time. I showed you a case where Paul uses the aorist tense when speaking about a future event.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

The verbs "foreknew," "predestined," "called," "justified," and "glorified" are all in the aorist tense, even though each of our personal experiences is different. Some of us were called and justified in the first century, while others were called and justified in this century. However, none of us has yet been glorified. The point is, Paul uses the aorist tense to group all the verbs together to create an unbroken line between "foreknown" and "glorified," rather than to speak about a past event. In other words, the use of the aorist tense doesn't necessarily describe a "one-time" action that occurred in the calendar past. It indicates an event that comes before the subject action, which in this case is glorification.

Therefore, when God created the universe, this was a "One Time Action" that occurred in the past.

In the given text, Paul is defending the view that it was not unfair or unjust for God to regard Jacob with love and Esau with hate, regardless of their actions being good or bad. Paul's argument is that if God is molding something, it would not question its creator by asking, "Why did you make me this way?" According to Paul's viewpoint, God's creative action is not limited to the past, but He creates each individual as required, in real-time, and according to His purpose for that individual. Each person is the thing molded and God formed each person according to his purpose for that person.

However, if you understand what you are reading, then you would know that "John 1:3" is referring to creation as a one time event that occurred in the past. You just have to know how to communicate.

John is referring to anything and everything that is ever created, whether it is created yesterday, today or tomorrow. This is the power of the aorist tense. John's point isn't to say, "God created a bunch of stuff in the past. His point is to say that all things were created in order to tell the story of redemption and place his son above all creatures including mankind.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Likewise, it makes no sense that we would address the same kind of question to God, “Why did you make me like Esau, to whom You are not committed to fulfill Your promises to Abraham, instead of like Jacob, to whom You are committed to fulfill these promises?”

This is the right question, since this is what Paul was talking about, not, "why did you create for the purpose of doing evil?"

Agreed, but later Paul will argue that God has the right to create some for destruction and others for mercy. We all deserve destruction, so why is God's mercy not evenly distributed among all human beings?

I can ask, why did you make me this way? But "this way" doesn't mean I cannot accept God's honest and real - not lies!! God does not lie!! - invitation to "come to Me all who are weary".

Some will come while others won't come. The question is why. According to Jesus and the Apostles, everyone is constitutionally incapable of coming to him, hearing him, understanding him, or receiving him without divine aid. Jesus teaches us that without the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, a person will not accept what he hears from Jesus, and the little he or she does understand will be lost.

God chose Abraham, but not all his children. Isaac, but not all his children. Jacob, but not all of his children either. And you don't get to choose whether you are this group or that group.

Agreed. That is the point isn't it?

Romans 9:18 KJV
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And to whom does God will to show mercy? Keep reading . . .

Romans 11:32 KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It all works together, and not requiring that you overthrow the meaning of one part because of how you understand another part.

Much love!

But again, belief and perseverance in belief aren't possible without the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit -- which is a gift of God, not something inherent in us.

 

[marks]

The question is why.

Yes, that is the Question.

You answer, God doesn't cause them to come. My answer, they won't come.

The invitation is to all. Real, or not?

Much love!

 

[setst777]

Okay, let's look a verse from the Bible.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you . . .​

Did God form Jeremiah in his mother's womb or no?

Psalm 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.​

Did God form the Psalmist's inward parts?

I am aware of these Passages.

I understand "Jeremiah 1:5" as God forming Jeremiah in the womb as an extraordinary event to fulfill a special purpose; but this does not mean that all people are formed in the womb in this way; for, God created all things to produce after their own kind, just as the Scriptures teach.

Regarding "Psalms 139:13," this is prophetic of the Messiah that was to come. The forming of the Messiah in the womb of Mary was an extraordinary even by the Spirit of God to make the Logos of God to become man without a human father. The Father gave special attention to the Messiah, because he is the Son of God and Son of Man sent to earth to bring salvation to the world.

God created all living things to produce after their own kind. And God created the entire universe. After creation was completed, God sustains all he created by His word of power.

Grammarians define the aorist tense as "simple past tense." But do you know why they say it's "simple?"

The simple past tense can refer to preceding events, not just time. I showed you a case where Paul uses the aorist tense when speaking about a future event.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

The verbs "foreknew," "predestined," "called," "justified," and "glorified" are all in the aorist tense, even though each of our personal experiences is different.

All these are one-time events in the past for each person who loves God. For each person who loves God, they received what God promised as a one-time past action that took place for each person that presently believes (loves God).

Each person who loves God receives these one-time promises. Those who love God are the ones God:

"foreknew"... God foreknew the ones who love God.
"predestined" ... God already planned in the past to conform to His Son those who love God.
"called" ... God calls all people by the Gospel, but one's who are the called are those who love God.
"justified" .... All those who love God have been justified by faith.
"glorified" ... All those who love God have been seated in heavenly places, transferred from darkness to light.

These all one time past events for each person who loves God.

Both the imperfect and aorist tenses describe actions of the PAST TENSE. They differ in one very important aspect; in that,

• The imperfect tense conveys multiple times an event takes place in the past, while
• The AORIST tense always conveys one single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect).

In the given text, Paul is defending the view that it was not unfair or unjust for God to regard Jacob with love and Esau with hate, regardless of their actions being good or bad. Paul's argument is that if God is molding something, it would not question its creator by asking, "Why did you make me this way?"

According to the context, Paul is saying that God has every right to prepare for blessing or punishment, noble, or ignoble depending on how they respond.

Romans 9:19-24 (WEB) 19 You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” [Isaiah 29:16; 45:9] 21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay [Jew or Gentile], from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?

• 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared/fitted/adjusted [2675 katartízō] for destruction,
• 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared/appointed/predestined [2675 proetoimázō] beforehand for glory

When we read the entire context and compare it with the other Passages, Paul is describing the same thing.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

Paul writes the similarly in "2 Timothy 2:19-22" as follows:

2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

God himself reveals that he is righteous in all His judgments despite those who claim God is not fair.

Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

Jeremiah 18:10-12 (“Potter and the Clay” explained by God) 10 {{{if they}}} do that which is evil in my sight, that {{{they}}} not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit {{{them}}}. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. {{{Everyone}}} return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”

According to Paul's viewpoint, God's creative action is not limited to the past, but He creates each individual as required, in real-time, and according to His purpose for that individual. Each person is the thing molded and God formed each person according to his purpose for that person.

Regarding the creation of all living things, God had, in the past, created all living things to produce after their own kind.

Can God do created acts even now? Sure, God does miraculous acts to accomplish his plans.

According to Paul's viewpoint, Paul never states in "Romans 9" that God "created" anyone to hate, to do evil things, and to condemn forever. . . That is an abhorrent thought of yours.

God is not unjust, in that, he has good reasons to prepare some for destruction and others for blessing, but you are going to reject God's reasons, and you will continue to believe God is fair and just to create people to hate and do evil, and condemn to eternal destruction....

Ezekiel 18:25-32 (WEB)
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust?
Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.
29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.
Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent and live!"

John is referring to anything and everything that is ever created, whether it is created yesterday, today or tomorrow. This is the power of the aorist tense. John's point isn't to say, "God created a bunch of stuff in the past. His point is to say that all things were created in order to tell the story of redemption and place his son above all creatures including mankind.

That is your own thoughts. John never stated that, and that is not what the Greek states. An aorist verb means a one-time past event for all of creation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, that is the Question.

You answer, God doesn't cause them to come. My answer, they won't come.

The invitation is to all. Real, or not?

Much love!

The call is not an invitation, it's an enlightenment. We all start out blind and hard-hearted. Those whom God decides to save, he opens their eyes and circumcises hearts. And by the power of his Holy Spirit they never fall away.

Praise his holy name.

 

[Ritajanice]

The call is not an invitation, it's an enlightenment. We all start out blind and hard-hearted. Those whom God decides to save, he opens their eyes and circumcises hearts. And by the power of his Holy Spirit they never fall away.

Praise his holy name.

He also “ Spirit gives birth to spirit “....once that happened to me, I received those spiritual eyes and ears, that need to develop, only the Holy Spirit can develop our spiritual eyes and ears, as you say we can never fall away, because we have been Born of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit keeps us focused on Jesus, it’s an Amazing journey!....not easy, but, we were never promised an easy ride,....I was Born Again over 32 yrs ago, I SEE God every day in my situations....breathtakingly amazing!.......as we learn to submit, he reveals more and more of Himself!!...

He knew His children before they were born, all according to his purpose and plan, a Born Again was chosen to bring all Glory to God, not for their knowledge of scripture.......

I have been on a mission for the Lord for the past 32 yrs, the first 3 years were the hardest, then there was heart break, then very quiet for at least 20 yrs, then these past 4 years it’s been full on, can’t share yet, hopefully God will allow me to one day.....as he has done it all, I’ve just been obedient to his call../ heart revelation ....now that is.....not at the beginning...the Spirit had to bring me inline with God’s will in an area of my life, ..we are now in harmony with one another...my testimony and belief.

 

[marks]

The call is not an invitation, it's an enlightenment.

That doesn't agree with what Jesus said.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

The call is not an invitation, it's an enlightenment. We all start out blind and hard-hearted. Those whom God decides to save, he opens their eyes and circumcises hearts. And by the power of his Holy Spirit they never fall away.

Praise his holy name.

God opened the hearts of those who already are God-fearing Jews, so they may understand that the Gospel revelation is the truth that the OT prophesied about.

All sinners are transferred from darkness to light {{{by Faith}}}, manifested by following Him.

John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. {Isaiah 60:1} He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1 John 6:7 (WEB) 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John 12:36 (WEB) 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

The sinner passes out of {{{Death}}} into {{{Life}}} {{{by Faith}}}

John 5:24 (WEB) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and ((believes)) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has ((passed out of death into life))”

The Gospel Call is an invitation to repent and believe to receive eternal life.

Isaiah 54:22 Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Mark 2:17 (WEB) “Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Matthew 11:28 (WEB) 28 “Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 22:9-10 (WEB) 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, {{{invite}}} to the wedding feast.’

Acts 17:30 (WEB) 30 But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent.

The sinner receives the Holy Spirit by faith after being invited by the Gospel Call.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

Acts 2:38 (WEB) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Revelation 3:20 (WEB) 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me.

Revelation 22:13 (WEB) 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That doesn't agree with what Jesus said.

Much love!

The problem here is a matter of semantics. In the Bible, the word "called" can have one of many different meanings. "Invited" is one of the meanings, yes. It depends on the context. Consider the following verse.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

In this context, the word "called" means "called out, chosen" to obtain eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. The "called out ones" are those whom God sanctified with his Spirit.

Yes, the invitation goes out to many people, but "For many are called (invited) but few are chosen to be sanctified by the Spirit of God. (Matthew 22:14)

 

[CadyandZoe]

God opened the hearts of those who already are God-fearing Jews, so they may understand that the Gospel revelation is the truth that the OT prophesied about.

The point is that saving faith doesn't happen until God circumcises the heart, and he doesn't circumcise everyone's heart.

Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

All sinners are transferred from darkness to light {{{by Faith}}}, manifested by following Him.

Not all sinners are transferred from darkness to light. Only those whom God has opened the eyes and softened the hearts. Enlightenment is an activity of the Spirit of God. He is the one who frees our minds and hearts to accept the truth about Jesus and ourselves.

John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. {Isaiah 60:1} He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Not all follow him or if they do, only those who have been sanctified by the Spirit of God will endure to the end. Romans 8:9

1 John 6:7 (WEB) 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

This is not true of everyone, not even of those who call themselves" Christians." It is only true of those whom God has sanctified with his Spirit. Romans 8:9

John 12:36 (WEB) 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.

Only those whom the Spirit has enlightened will believe in the light.

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

Only those who have been enlightended by the Spirit of God will believe Jesus and not remain in darkness.

John 5:24 (WEB) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and ((believes)) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has ((passed out of death into life))”

The Gospel Call is an invitation to repent and believe to receive eternal life.

Evangelists have been known to present the Gospel as an invitation. But the "calling" of God is not an invitation -- it is an awakening brought about by God himself. Some prefer the comfort of slumber. Some wake up.

Mark 2:17 (WEB) “Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Not all sinners repent. Only those whom God has chosen and blessed with his Spirit will repent and be saved.

Matthew 11:28 (WEB) 28 “Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

Many are called; few are chosen.

 

[setst777]

The problem here is a matter of semantics. In the Bible, the word "called" can have one of many different meanings. "Invited" is one of the meanings, yes. It depends on the context. Consider the following verse.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

In this context, the word "called" means "called out, chosen" to obtain eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. The "called out ones" are those whom God sanctified with his Spirit.

Yes, the invitation goes out to many people, but "For many are called (invited) but few are chosen to be sanctified by the Spirit of God. (Matthew 22:14)

"Romans 8:28" does not give us an explanation of how they were called; however, many other Passages do explain.

In every case, the one's called out are those who believe after hearing the Gospel. And this is according to God's purpose to save those who believe (John 3:16).

The Spirit dwells in those who first believe to sanctify the believer as God's possession.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

 

[marks]

The call is not an invitation, it's an enlightenment.

Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is an open invitation. I believe Jesus really meant it, not like some sort of word game where He is inviting all to come, knowing that most cannot, yet acting as if they could. That to me is disengenous, which is dishonesty, from the One Who claimed, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." So I accept it as presented.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

The point is that saving faith doesn't happen until God circumcises the heart, and he doesn't circumcise everyone's heart.

Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe.

John 7:38 (EWEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Not all sinners are transferred from darkness to light. Only those whom God has opened the eyes and softened the hearts. Enlightenment is an activity of the Spirit of God. He is the one who frees our minds and hearts to accept the truth about Jesus and ourselves.

Only by faith is a person enlightened.

John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. {Isaiah 60:1} He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1 John 6:7 (WEB) 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John 12:36 (WEB) 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.

Not all follow him or if they do, only those who have been sanctified by the Spirit of God will endure to the end. Romans 8:9

The Scriptures teach us that the believer is obligated to sow to the Spirit to the end to receive eternal life from the Spirit.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Many are called; few are chosen.

Many are called by the Gospel. The ones chosen are those who believe after hearing the Gospel.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The rebirth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life, which is by faith

 

[CadyandZoe]

Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is an open invitation. I believe Jesus really meant it, not like some sort of word game where He is inviting all to come, knowing that most cannot, yet acting as if they could. That to me is disengenous, which is dishonesty, from the One Who claimed, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." So I accept it as presented.

Much love!

Yes, it is an open invitation, but not all will come. And why not? Because they come when they are chosen by the Father to give to the son. And the essential marker of those whom he has chosen is the proper inwardness.

I don't see it as disingenuous because it is a general invitation, not one directed at anyone in particular.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"Romans 8:28" does not give us an explanation of how they were called; however, many other Passages do explain.

In every case, the one's called out are those who believe after hearing the Gospel. And this is according to God's purpose to save those who believe (John 3:16).

Yes, and the reason they believe after hearing the gospel is because God has given them his Spirit.

The Spirit dwells in those who first believe to sanctify the believer as God's possession.

Indwelling Spirit comes first. As it says in Deuteronomy, God circumcises the hearts of Israel so they believe his word and obey.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

The sealing came first.

 

[setst777]

Yes, it is an open invitation, but not all will come. And why not? Because they come when they are chosen by the Father to give to the son. And the essential marker of those whom he has chosen is the proper inwardness.

I don't see it as disingenuous because it is a general invitation, not one directed at anyone in particular.

The Scriptures do not teach that God chooses some to believe and give to the Son; rather, the will of God is to give to the Son those who believe in the Son.

John 6:
39 This now is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.
40 For [gar: the reason why he said verse 39] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1063 gar: for, indeed (a conjunction used to express cause, an explanation, an inference or a continuation)

Question: So, according to the context, who are the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son, and who will come to the Son, and whom the Son will not cast out, but will raise on the last day, giving them eternal life? Lord Jesus clearly gives us the reason why in verse 40, which states:

John 6:40 For [Lord Jesus explains the reason for his previous statement] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father wills to give to the Son, to give eternal life to, everyone who sees the Son and believes in him.

 

[setst777]

Yes, and the reason they believe after hearing the gospel is because God has given them his Spirit.

The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them life.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Indwelling Spirit comes first. As it says in Deuteronomy, God circumcises the hearts of Israel so they believe his word and obey.

We look to the NT to give us complete understanding of the Gospel revelation of what was a mystery in the OT.

1 Peter 1:10-12 (WEB) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently. They prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them. 12 To them it was revealed, that they served not themselves, but you, in these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV) 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The sealing came first.

That is your belief, but wouldn't you rather believe what the Scriptures actually state for the sake of your relationship with God and for your salvation? Because, if you are going to replace God's own Word with your own beliefs, what chance is there for you?

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe.

John 7:38 (EWEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The verses you quote don't necessarily rule out the order of salvation that I have proposed. They can be read either way.

Consider Romans 11, where Paul identifies the reason why some in Israel were not coming to belief in Jesus and receiving the blessing of God.

Romans 11:7-8

What then? Israel has not obtained what it is seeking, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.”​

The Apostle draws a distinction between those in Israel who obtained the blessing of eternal life and those whom God hardened. From this, we can rightfully conclude that God hardens those whom he didn't choose. Logically then, if Paul's statement is true, and it is, then a softened heart is one of the many markers that identifies those whom God has chosen.

Current heart condition	Chosen	Not Chosen
Has a soft heart already	Keeps it soft	Hardens it
Has a hardened heart	Softens the heart	Keeps it hardened

The table above indicates that Salvation is God's choice. He can soften a heart if he wants or he can harden a heart if he wants. Only those whom God has softened will receive the blessing of eternal life. Those whom he hardens don't receive it.

Only by faith is a person enlightened.

Faith is evidence of enlightenment.

John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. {Isaiah 60:1} He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

He who follows Jesus has the Spirit of God.

The Scriptures teach us that the believer is obligated to sow to the Spirit to the end to receive eternal life from the Spirit.

Those who have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ will fulfill that obligation.

Many are called by the Gospel. The ones chosen are those who believe after hearing the Gospel.

The chosen believe the gospel because God has opened their eyes and softened their hearts.

The rebirth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life, which is by faith

Faith is evidence of rebirth.