You disagree with the verse you quoted. Jesus explicitly says that the Father gives people to the Son. The reason why someone believes in the Son, follows him and remains in him is because the Father has given that person to the son.
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There is only one way to read them, if you understand how to communicate.
The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them life.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit
Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
The Spirit will not indwell anyone with just any kind of faith; rather, such faith must manifest in a commitment to obey Lord Jesus.
Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
John 14:15-16 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth
John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.
Continue reading to "Romans 11:9-11" and you will see that God hardened Israel because of their own transgression, and that is why David cursed Israel for their sins, even though he was an Israelite.
Romans 11:
9 And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
Israels transgression was great, although God was patient with them, as "Romans 10:21" also states:
Romans 10:20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2]
That is why God hardened them.
The enlightenment is from God's Word and Spirit, but the only ones who are enlightened are those who believe in the Word and do not resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51-57).
Only by faith is a person enlightened.
John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. {Isaiah 60:1} He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”
1 John 6:7 (WEB) 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
John 12:36 (WEB) 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.
Correct.
Only if the Spirit-indwelt Christian remains in the Faith diligent to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit, which is each Christian's obligation to have life in the Spirit.
Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.
Not in Scripture. God may open the eyes of those who already believe in God so they understand the Gospel.
God does not open the eyes of anyone who refuses to believe, resisting the Holy Spirit.
Acts 7:51-57
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?
Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you refused!
Ezekiel 33:11 (WEB) Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die, house of Israel?”
No Scripture given.
By faith we are given life in the indwelling Spirit; that is what the Scriptures state.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
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You disagree with the verse. Read the context, pay attention to grammar.
You will never understand by quoting isolated verses.
The Scriptures do not teach that God chooses some to believe and give to the Son; rather, the will of God is to give to the Son those who believe in the Son.
John 6:
39 This now is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.
40 For [gar: the reason why he said verse 39] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1063 gar: for, indeed (a conjunction used to express cause, an explanation, an inference or a continuation)
Question: So, according to the context, who are the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son, and who will come to the Son, and whom the Son will not cast out, but will raise on the last day, giving them eternal life? Lord Jesus clearly gives us the reason why in verse 40, which states:
John 6:40 For [Lord Jesus explains the reason for his previous statement] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Father wills to give to the Son, to give eternal life to, everyone who sees the Son and believes in him.
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On the contrary, your arguments depend on a certain "take" on them, which is not clear from the actual text itself.
The apostles promise that those who are born again will never fall away.
Again, it doesn't matter why he hardened them. The fact remains, he hardened them.
The only believers who will survive to be saved are those in whom God has poured out his Spirit.
Enlightenment precedes faith.
The Spirit-indwelt Christian will remain in the faith. Guaranteed.
You underestimate the human resistance to the truth.
Again, you overestimate a person's willingness to accept or affirm the truth of the gospel, which includes the reality of one's fallenness. Belief isn't as easy as you make out.
Have you ever read, "How can you believe when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" John 5:44? John's gospel is a commentary on belief: why some believe while others don't. Here Jesus identifies barriers to belief, which must be overcome. Suppose God decides to save one of these Pharisees. What must be done? Before the Pharisee is able to accept the truth about himself and seek justification by faith in Jesus Christ, God must transform the Pharisee's thinking, worldview, orientation, and remove his desire to seek glory from men. The Pharisee whom God is saving will never do that on his own. Before the Pharisee can believe in Jesus Christ, God must "circumcise" the heart of the Pharisee and open his eyes.
You'll find it eventually.
It isn't a grammar issue.
But contrary to your interpretation, Jesus is not suggesting that belief is a prerequisite for eternal life. Rather, he is saying that God transforms the inner-man and belief is one of the markers that indicate a transformation of the inner-man.
setst777 said: There is only one way to read them, if you understand how to communicate.
What "certain take?" Just read the plain to understand Word of God.
The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them life.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit
Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Not according to the Apostles.
1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.
1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected
Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test
Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Many born again Christians will not remain in the Faith of the Gospel; in that, they grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32), quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19), insult/enrage (Hebrews 10:24-31), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9) the indwelling Spirit.
Christians who reject, insult, and enrage the indwelling Spirit will suffer eternal punishment if not confessed and repented of (Hebrews 10:24-31; Revelation 3:1-6; Romans 11:19-22). The real possibility of falling away from THE [definite article] Faith is taught in Scripture by the Apostles.
1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”
1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons
1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.
2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
It definitely matters.
Only if the Spirit-indwelt believer remains in the faith to the end.
Galatians 6:8-9 But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.
Not in Scripture
Not in Scripture
Just accept what the Scriptures state. No need to philosophize it.
Lord Jesus said nothing about the Pharisees having to be transformed first so they can believe; rather, the pharisees, of their own doing, resisted the Spirit and the words of God through His prophets.
Acts 7:51-57 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?
setst777 said: No Scripture given.
When you make a claim that God's Word states something, then it is up to you to provide the Scriptures that teach it.
What "certain take?" Just read the plain to understand Word of God.
The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them life.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit
Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Not according to the Apostles.
1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.
1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected
Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test
Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Many born again Christians will not remain in the Faith of the Gospel; in that, they grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32), quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19), insult/enrage (Hebrews 10:24-31), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9) the indwelling Spirit.
Christians who reject, insult, and enrage the indwelling Spirit will suffer eternal punishment if not confessed and repented of (Hebrews 10:24-31; Revelation 3:1-6; Romans 11:19-22). The real possibility of falling away from THE [definite article] Faith is taught in Scripture by the Apostles.
1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”
1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons
1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.
2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
It definitely matters.
Only if the Spirit-indwelt believer remains in the faith to the end.
Galatians 6:8-9 But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.
Not in Scripture
Not in Scripture
Just accept what the Scriptures state. No need to philosophize it.
Lord Jesus said nothing about the Pharisees having to be transformed first so they can believe; rather, the pharisees, of their own doing, resisted the Spirit and the words of God through His prophets.
Acts 7:51-57 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?
setst777 said: No Scripture given.
When you make a claim that God's Word states something, then it is up to you to provide the Scriptures that teach it.
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setst777 said: You disagree with the verse. Read the context, pay attention to grammar.
It is not a grammar issue for you because you do not care about the grammar.
setst777 said:
The Scriptures do not teach that God chooses some to believe and give to the Son; rather, the will of God is to give to the Son those who believe in the Son.
John 6:
39 This now is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.
40 For [gar: the reason why he said verse 39] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1063 gar: for, indeed (a conjunction used to express cause, an explanation, an inference or a continuation)
Question: So, according to the context, who are the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son, and who will come to the Son, and whom the Son will not cast out, but will raise on the last day, giving them eternal life? Lord Jesus clearly gives us the reason why in verse 40, which states:
John 6:40 For [Lord Jesus explains the reason for his previous statement] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
There is nothing to interpret, just read what Lord Jesus stated in context, and pay attention to the word "FOR."
All the Scriptures state that belief is a prerequisite to eternal life.
John 3:14-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Hebrews 7:25 (WEB) 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.
It definitely matters. According to you, God creates some to be evil, creating their evil choices, and then sends them to hell for all that God created them to do, and for the destination he created them for; yet, you say God is righteous in doing so because he is creator.
CadyandZoe said: Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained. Paul argues that God is not unjust because God is a creator.
CadyandZoe said: If God were a man, I would agree with you. But God is a creator, and for this reason, according to Paul, God is not unjust when he decrees that a particular man will be evil and suffer judgment.
CadyandZoe said:
Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?
According to you, not the Scriptures, God is Righteous because he is the Creator, existing outside of our boundaries of conduct; and so God can do anything he desires and he remains holy and righteous. That is not taught in Scripture. God's righteousness is manifested by His Spirit - the fruit of the Spirit.
In your philosophy, God remains righteous because God is the creator and originator of sin and evil, creating people and their zillions of evil and good choices, including all their evil deeds since the beginning of time until now, and then condemns them eternally for that which God created them for and created them to do.
I wonder… What would an UNHOLY deity look like?
These are the character traits of God that make up the "Fruit of the Spirit" that Christians are being conformed to emulate.
It is not a grammar issue for you because you do not care about the grammar.
setst777 said:
The Scriptures do not teach that God chooses some to believe and give to the Son; rather, the will of God is to give to the Son those who believe in the Son.
John 6:
39 This now is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.
40 For [gar: the reason why he said verse 39] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1063 gar: for, indeed (a conjunction used to express cause, an explanation, an inference or a continuation)
Question: So, according to the context, who are the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son, and who will come to the Son, and whom the Son will not cast out, but will raise on the last day, giving them eternal life? Lord Jesus clearly gives us the reason why in verse 40, which states:
John 6:40 For [Lord Jesus explains the reason for his previous statement] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
There is nothing to interpret, just read what Lord Jesus stated in context, and pay attention to the word "FOR."
All the Scriptures state that belief is a prerequisite to eternal life.
John 3:14-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Hebrews 7:25 (WEB) 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.
It definitely matters. According to you, God creates some to be evil, creating their evil choices, and then sends them to hell for all that God created them to do, and for the destination he created them for; yet, you say God is righteous in doing so because he is creator.
CadyandZoe said: Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained. Paul argues that God is not unjust because God is a creator.
CadyandZoe said: If God were a man, I would agree with you. But God is a creator, and for this reason, according to Paul, God is not unjust when he decrees that a particular man will be evil and suffer judgment.
CadyandZoe said:
Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?
According to you, not the Scriptures, God is Righteous because he is the Creator, existing outside of our boundaries of conduct; and so God can do anything he desires and he remains holy and righteous. That is not taught in Scripture. God's righteousness is manifested by His Spirit - the fruit of the Spirit.
In your philosophy, God remains righteous because God is the creator and originator of sin and evil, creating people and their zillions of evil and good choices, including all their evil deeds since the beginning of time until now, and then condemns them eternally for that which God created them for and created them to do.
I wonder… What would an UNHOLY deity look like?
- A god who decrees, creates, and predestines all evil that all people do is an evil god.
- Calvinism has been painting God as an unholy creator of all sins since the sixteenth century.
- You state that you believe what the Scriptures are stating, but we don't find that God creates some to hate, creates their evil choices, and already created them for eternal punishment for the sins God created them to make; rather, God is patient and kind, desiring all to come to repentance, which includes the wicked (Romans 2:4-9).
- If the wicked continue to refuse God’s grace, only then does God prepare them for destruction (Romans 1:18; Romans 2:4-9; Romans 9:22-23).
- You can't turn to Romans 9, because "Romans 9" does not say God created anyone to hate and to do evil deeds; rather, BEFORE they did anything good or bad. This demonstrates foreknowledge as the reason why God hated Esau and loved Jacob.
- The Scriptures do not state that God gives anyone faith to be saved by regeneration of the indwelling Spirit; rather, by believing we receive the Spirit to give us life (John 7:37-39), from death to life by faith (John 5:24).
- Where do we find in Scripture that all God's feelings, including love, are all just anthropomorphisms?
- Rather than God planning and creating all things to take place as they do, the Scriptures plainly show that God does change his mind, his intentions, based on how the nation, or persons in a nation, respond in His hands (Jeremiah 18:1-11), and based on our prayers.
- Therefore, your beliefs are founded in the philosophy of man rather than on what the Scriptures actually teach.
- Therefore, your perversion of God's Word makes God out to be an evil God, when the very Fruit of the Spirit reveals God's glorious nature (Galatians 5:22-23).
These are the character traits of God that make up the "Fruit of the Spirit" that Christians are being conformed to emulate.
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You are mistaken about me. I do care about the grammar. I simply disagree with your conclusion about why we disagree. You think our disagreement is centered on the grammar, but I think the reason for our disagreement is inattention to the literary context. What are the circumstances that attend the point he is making?
In order to understand this passage we must also include the context of the statement. Why did Jesus raise this subject?
John 6:35-36
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
When Jesus said, "you have seen me, and yet you do not believe", it was because even though the people saw him perform miracles like multiplying fish and loaves, they still didn't believe that he was the prophet sent by God. They did recognize that a prophet is someone chosen by God to deliver a message to the people, and they thought that Jesus was that prophet. However, they didn't fully believe in him. The miracles were a sign of God's presence and served to confirm the prophet's message.
The following passage recounts an incident in which Jesus and his disciples traveled to the other side of the lake, and some people sought him out upon hearing that he was capable of multiplying bread. However, Jesus rebuked them, saying, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled." This group was not interested in hearing about God's redemptive plan or receiving any warnings or calls to repentance. Instead, they were only interested in practical matters, such as obtaining bread without having to work for it.
Then Jesus wisely said, "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on Him, God the Father has placed His seal." This message emphasizes that people should understand and believe that Jesus is the Messiah and, according to God's will, the source of eternal life.
In this particular context, Jesus expressed his amazement, saying "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But even though you have seen me, you don't believe." Jesus knew that performing miracles and teaching about the gospel wasn't always enough to convince everyone to accept him as the Messiah.
Many Christians assume that if they present the gospel in a clear and unambiguous manner, supported by sound arguments and evidence, all fair-minded individuals will believe and accept their message. However, this is not always the case, as evidenced by Jesus himself. It is remarkable that some of the people who witnessed Jesus perform miracles, such as multiplying bread and fish, still refused to believe that he was the source of life according to God's will.
Jesus explains in John 6:37 why some people believe in him while others do not. He says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." This statement reveals the principle that explains why some people refuse to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, despite all the evidence. The reason is that those who do not believe are not given to Jesus by the Father.
As we have seen from the context, belief is not the reason why the Father gave someone to Jesus; belief is the evidence that God has given someone to Jesus.
The scriptures you mentioned do not state or imply that belief is a prerequisite for eternal life. To understand Jesus' intended meaning in John 3:14-18, we need to review the start of the chapter, where Jesus tells Nicodemus that his ability to accept Jesus as the Christ, the king of God's kingdom, is due to his being born again.
By strong implication then, those whom God has not given spiritual birth will not be able to say that Jesus is the Christ, the king of God's kingdom. One can admit or acknowledge Jesus's words and actions for what they are unless one has been born again. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
According to Jesus's words earlier in the chapter, the term "whoever" refers to whatever person God has caused to be born again. Eternal life is assured to those whom God has given his spirit. And belief, as Jesus said, is evidence of that attribute.
You don't seem to understand the significance of Paul's statement to your beliefs. The question of whether a person could have chosen otherwise is central to discussions about free will. Paul claims that God hardened the hearts of some in Israel so that they wouldn't seek justification on God's terms. In essence, God foreclosed on their ability to make a free-will choice. The hardened-ones were unable to choose otherwise.
Isn't this a problem for your view? I think so.
One might argue that God hardens a heart in response to a person who has already hardened their own heart. Suppose that is true. What then?
When renting a storage space, both the renter and storage company have a place on the door to accept a lock. If the renter locks the door, he can remove the lock to gain entrance into the unit. But if the storage company locks the door, it doesn't matter if the renter removes his lock, the door remains closed.
Likewise, a man might harden his own heart, and if he does, he is able to soften his heart if he wishes. But if God should harden the man's heart, the man will not be able to soften his own heart. Only God can soften a heart once hardened.
That is not exactly my view. I wouldn't say God creates people for a particular destination. Rather, God creates people for a particular purpose. Remember, the potter creates some pots for honorable use and other pots for dishonorable use. There remains a direct correspondence between the form of the pot and its intended function. [raison d'etre: the most important reason or purpose for someone or something's existence.]
Paul believes that there are two main reasons for our existence. The first reason is to display God's wrath while the second reason is to glorify God's mercy. To demonstrate his wrath, the creator God creates stories about people who exhibit a pattern of behavior deserving of punishment. On the other hand, to glorify his mercy, God creates stories about people who exhibit a pattern of behavior that deserves forgiveness.
I wouldn't put it that way. According to Paul, God remains righteous because as the creator, he has the right to design, form, and orchestrate the lives of his creatures to serve his purposes.
Agreed. Bear in mind, God is the subject of the sentence, "Christians are being conformed." We don't conform ourselves.
Bible students eventually realize that it doesn't work that way. Often the "plain" meaning of a text is the familiar understanding of the text rather than the meaning that the author meant to convey. We are seeking the meaning that the Biblical author intends to convey.
The "he who believes" is the one whom God has already chosen.
Yes, Paul and Peter explicitly say that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit guarantees that someone will never fall away.
According to Peter and Paul, all born-again Christians will remain in the faith, see Jesus, and receive eternal life.
1 Peter 1: born again to a living hope
Romans 5: hope will not disappoint
In your view, why does it matter. After all, once God has hardened a person's heart, they are no longer able to choose otherwise. The point is, God has removed their freedom of will so that they CAN'T repent.
According to Peter and Paul, the Spirit-indwelt believer will remain in the faith to the end.
How can a man believe if he doesn't hear the gospel? Knowledge then faith.
I recommend that you accept what the scriptures mean.
You constantly miss the distinction between "can" and "will." Jesus is talking about man's will, not his ability. What a man will's to believe is often not the same as what he can believe.
Do you understand this?
I agree with all that you wrote, except for the parts I quoted from you above.
John 6:37 states: All those the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in never cast out.
“Verse 37” tells us that there exists only one reason why anyone comes to the son, and that is because the Father gives them to the Son. And all whom the Father gives to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
So far, we are not told how the Father gives the “all” to the Son, but let us objectively continue with what Lord Jesus is teaching without adding or subtracting by our own opinions.
John 6:38 states: For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
“Verse 38” begins with the conjunction "for," which is the Greek word "hoti." Lord Jesus is telling us the reason why he came down from Heaven, which is to do the will of the Father who sent him.
Question: What is the “will of the Father” that Lord Jesus came down from heaven to fulfill?
Verse 39, Lord Jesus is now gives that reason:
John 6:39 states: This now is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.
According to verse 39, the will of the Father is that all those the Father has given to the Son, he (the Son) will lose none of them guaranteed, but raise up at the last day guaranteed.
A question to consider is: Who are the "all" whom God gives to the Son, so that he will lose none of them but raise them up guaranteed? Is this a mystery of God, or does Lord Jesus tell us?
To find out, let us continue with the explanation Lord Jesus gives for what he previously stated.
John 6:40 states: “For [Greek: gar] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Verse 40 starts with the word "For," which in Greek is "gar" and is a conjunction that shows us that what follows is the reason why for what was previously stated.
Therefore, Lord Jesus plainly identifies who the all are whom the Father gives to the Son - it is the "everyone" who believes.
This would be synonymous with you saying:
I commended Johnny, for he did a superb job washing and waxing your car.
Notice that “commending Johnny,” by itself, does not tell us why or for what reason you are commending Johnny; it is a mystery. However, the explanation follows after the conjunction "for." So the reason why Johnny was commended was for the excellent job he did cleaning and waxing your car. That is what "gar" means in verse 40.
So, in light of what we learned about the conjunctive "for," let us read again verse 39 and verse 40 together with that knowledge in mind, so we can see the context:
John 6:39 states: This now is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 For [gar: the reason why he said verse 39] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Question: So, according to the context, who are the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son, and who will come to the Son, and whom the Son will not cast out, but will raise on the last day, giving them eternal life? Lord Jesus clearly gives us the reason why in verse 40, which states:
John 6:40 For [Lord Jesus explains the reason for his previous statement] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Father wills to give to the Son, and to give eternal life, to everyone who sees the Son and believes in him.
The "all" whom the Father gives to the Son are identified by Lord Jesus as the "everyone who believes."
Not everyone will come to the Son because of their own pride; and so they refuse the drawing of God's Spirit and Word.
Acts 7:51-57 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?
Therefore, God prerequisite to eternal life is that they believe, because that is the will and good pleasure of the Father.
John 6:40 For [Lord Jesus explains the reason for his previous statement] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.
The Spiritual rebirth is by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), and is only received by first believing, according to God's Word.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit
Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
We don't pass out of spiritual death onto spiritual life so we can believe, but because we do believe.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:40 (WEB) Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.
So spiritual life is by believing. By believing, we come to the Son to have Life.
All hear the Gospel, but not everyone will believe because they are proud and obstinate.
Romans 10:17-21 (WEB) states: 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly,
“Their sound went out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” [Psalm 19:4]
19 But I ask, didn’t Israel know? First Moses says,
“I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation. I will make you angry with a nation void of understanding.” [Deuteronomy 32:21]
20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2]
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God always hardens a person's heart in judgment because they refused His grace so they can continue in their wickedness, just as Israel had done (Romans 11:7-12). But the humble, crushed, the heavy laden, will hear and believe because their hearts are prepared for the message of salvation. The Scriptures do not teach that God makes them humble; rather, these are the ones God helps.
Psalms 18:27 You save the humble but look down on those whose eyes are haughty [proud, arrogant].
Psalms 34:18 Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.
Your own statements show that God can do nothing but create people for a particular destination considering what you believe
CadyandZoe said: If God were a man, I would agree with you. But God is a creator, and for this reason, according to Paul, God is not unjust when he decrees that a particular man will be evil and suffer judgment.
CadyandZoe said: God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.
CadyandZoe said: God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.
If God is the scriptwriter who creates people, their choices, their motives, and every aspect of our reality, then you cannot, at the same time, say that God does not create each person for the destination God created them for.
Who else but God is creating all things to happen the way they are according to your philosophy?
God forms the pot (a person or nation) for honorable or dishonorable use depending on how they respond - either in repentance or willful disobedience.
Romans 9:19-24 (WEB) 19 You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” [Isaiah 29:16; 45:9] 21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay [Jew or Gentile], from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
- 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared/fitted/adjusted [2675 katartízō] for destruction,
- 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared/appointed/predestined [2675 proetoimázō] beforehand for glory
2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.
God endured with much patience, but the choice is still up to the sinner to repent. God does not repent for them.
Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“
God himself reveals that he is righteous in all His judgments despite those who claim God is not fair.
Jeremiah 18:10-12 (“Potter and the Clay” explained by God) 10 {{{if they}}} do that which is evil in my sight, that {{{they}}} not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit {{{them}}}. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. {{{Everyone}}} return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”
setst777 said:
Galatians 5:22-23 (WEB) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
These are the character traits of God that make up the "Fruit of the Spirit" that Christians are being conformed to emulate.
The subject is the Christians that Paul is writing to; in that, they are to sanctify themselves to God by walking in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16 (WEB) 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 25 If we live by the Spirit, {{{let us}}} also keep in step with the Spirit.
I believe that all Christians are born again to a living hope, and I believe that hope never disappoints. The "hope" is only active as the Christian continues to sow to the Spirit to have that Eternal Life that the Spirit promises.
Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we [Paul includes himself] have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 8 But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} [Paul includes himself] not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} [Paul includes himself] will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} [Paul includes himself] do not give up.
We are encouraged to persevere so that we might have hope.
Romans 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we [Paul includes himself] might have hope.
Paul offers no guarantee, but rather, admonishes us to continue in hope firm to the end.
Colossians 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.
Hebrews 3:6 We are his house, if we [Paul includes himself] hold fast our confidence and the glorying of our hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 10:23 Let us [Paul includes himself] hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering; for he who promised is faithful.
Peter instructs us to soberly set our hope fully on that grace in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:13 Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ
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If you are asking "On what basis does the Father give people to the son?", the answer is not stated. The point is, they come and stay with Jesus because the Father has given them to his son.
We know from the parable of the sower and other NT passages that not all those who believe in Jesus will remain in Jesus. Therefore, we conclude those who didn't remain were not people whom God gave to the son.
According to the passage at hand, God supplies the prerequisite, otherwise it isn't the Father giving the son some believers, they are giving themselves to the son. The only way this passage makes sense is if the Father creates belief in someone.
According to Jesus, the rebirth is a necessary condition for one to accept the fact that Jesus is the Messiah and the king of his kingdom. Here in the passage under discussion, the same thing is said in a different way. The only ones who believe that Jesus is the Messiah are those whom the Father has given to him.
Okay. So what? The point is that God hardened their heart, which means that he made sure that they couldn't change their minds. Bottom line? God will violate human free will anytime he wishes it.
And why is this a problem?
Your explanation is incorrect because the potter analogy lacks an element indicating a prior choice.
In John 6:40, Lord Jesus does identify "who" the "all" are whom the Father gives to the Son, which Lord Jesus identifies as "whoever believes."
John 6:40 states: “For [Greek: gar] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Lord Jesus plainly identifies who the all are whom the Father gives to the Son - it is the "everyone" who believes.
The "Parable of the Sower" teaches us that some hearts are prepared to believe more so than others. This parable teaches nothing about regeneration, or anything about those who were born again elect Christians but later resisted the Holy Spirit and fell away, but other Passages do.
2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we [Paul includes himself] have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 8 But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} [Paul includes himself] not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} [Paul includes himself] will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} [Paul includes himself] do not give up.
Those who were in "The Faith" can fall away from "The Faith" by not remaining in "The Faith."
They had a genuine saving faith "The Faith" and they fell away.
1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”
1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons
1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.
Paul, who was in "The Faith" offered no security for his Faith, even though he was an Apostle.
1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected
Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test
Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Many born again Christians will not remain in the Faith of the Gospel; in that, they grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32), quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19), insult/enrage (Hebrews 10:24-31), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9) the indwelling Spirit.
In "John 6:37-40," Lord Jesus plainly identifies that "whoever believes" are the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son.
Nothing is stated in "John 6:37-40" that "God supplies the prerequisite." That is all in your imagination. There is not one Scripture that states that God creates faith to be saved in some by the indwelling Spirit and not others.
The Spiritual rebirth is by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), and is only received by first believing, according to God's Word.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
We don't pass out of spiritual death onto spiritual life so we can believe, but because we do believe.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:40 (WEB) Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.
No such Scripture.
Why don't you provide a Scripture that states that "rebirth" is necessary for one to accept the fact that Jesus is the Messiah? Go ahead and give the verse if you can find it.
I repeatedly gave you many Scriptures that plainly state that we receive the Spirit, and life by the Spirit, by our faith. Now show me the Scriptures that refute God's Word.
The Spiritual rebirth is by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), and is only received by first believing, according to God's Word.
John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
We don't pass out of spiritual death onto spiritual life so we can believe, but because we do believe.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Go ahead and show the Scriptures that refute what Lord Jesus stated.
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I have no problem at all with God hardening a person's heart in judgment because they continually refused His grace. That is righteous of God to do so.
setst777 said: Your own statements show that God can do nothing but create people for a particular destination considering what you believe.
That is a problem for you, because you said the following:
Which is it? You can't say it is not your view, and it is your view, at the same time, it's one or the other.
setst777 said: God forms the pot (a person or nation) for honorable or dishonorable use depending on how they respond - either in repentance or willful disobedience.
They had a prior choice, otherwise God would not have been patient with them telling them to repent.
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared/fitted/adjusted [2675 katartízō] for destruction,
When we read the entire context and compare it with the other Passages, Paul is describing the same thing.
2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.
As anyone can see, God is patient with the wicked, admonishing the sinners to repent (purges himself from these), which plainly shows that the vessels had a prior choice.
God endured with much patience, but the choice is still up to the sinner to repent. God does not repent for them.
Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“
God himself is reasoning with the Jews, giving them a choice to repent, so he can form them into vessels of honor.
Jeremiah 18:10-12 (“Potter and the Clay” explained by God) 10 {{{if they}}} do that which is evil in my sight, that {{{they}}} not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit {{{them}}}. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. {{{Everyone}}} return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Those who accept His invitation, "come to Me, all who are weary . . ."
Those who believe in His Name, and call upon Him to be saved.
Much love!
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Not those predetermined as Calvin said " predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life,
Or is their a mix of those that were preselected and those that an invitation would be given to?
I'm of the opinion that God's invitation is to all, in honesty. I am not Calvinist.
Much love!
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
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