TULIP an open discussion

[setst777]

setst777 said: What Paul is plainly teaching in "1 Corinthians 1:21-25" is that the Gospel is the power of God onto salvation to all who believe (1 Corinthians 1:21), to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile, just as Paul also wrote in "Romans 1:16-17."

You missed the point. Paul first points out that the gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. He doesn't qualify his statement. He doesn't say "some Jews" and "some Gentiles." Once he sets up his point, he says, "But to those who are called, the gospel is the power and wisdom of God."

You are not paying attention to the context.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (WEB) {{{For}}} [Paul explains his previous statement] you see your calling, brothers, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, and not many noble; 27 but God chose ["chose" not "created"] the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world that he might put to shame the things that are strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that don’t exist, that he might bring to nothing the things that exist, 29 that no flesh should boast before God.

God the Father has designed the simple Gospel message to appeal to those who are poor, humble, crushed in spirit, and heavy laden, because these are the ones God has chosen to save.

Notice in the Passages I will now quote, that God does not choose to give faith; rather, God's good pleasure and will is to save those who are humble, poor, crushed in spirit, and heavy laden.

God designed the Gospel to appeal to those who are like infants - humble, ready to learn.

Matthew 11:25-26 (WEB) 25 At that time, Jesus answered, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you hid these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to infants. 26 Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.

Lord Jesus places the responsibility to be humble on each individual.

Matthew 18:3 (WEB) 3 …“Most certainly I tell you, unless you turn [convert] and become as little children [conversion unto total faith in Lord Jesus: John 3:16], you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 18:13-14 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

God's promise is to save the humble, not the proud and arrogant.

Psalms 18:27 (NIV) 27 You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Psalms 25:8-9 (WEB) Good and upright is Yahweh, therefore he will instruct sinners in the way. 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Psalms 34:18 (WEB) 18 Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.

Luke 4:18-19 (EWEB) 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Mathew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

God desires every sinner to be saved, but those people who harden their own hearts, God will not save such people.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

Three Apostles and Jesus himself talk about the guarantee.

Question: Salvation is guaranteed to who?
Answer: Salvation is a guarantee for those who believe and remain in The faith to the end.

Lord Jesus and all the Apostles never state anywhere in the New Testament that faith is guaranteed by God; rather, just the opposite. Therefore, that is something you made up.

Lord Jesus and His Apostolic Writers all admonished and warned the Christians to remain in the faith to the end to be saved.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) 11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Paul did not think his own salvation, or that of Timothy, was secure during his earthly ministry unless he endured in the faith to the end.

All the warnings in Scripture to remain faithful to be saved are written to born again Christians.

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person {{{who}}} endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to {{{those who love him.}}} …16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are not paying attention to the context.

God the Father has designed the simple Gospel message to appeal to those who are poor, humble, crushed in spirit, and heavy laden, because these are the ones God has chosen to save.

You missed the point again. Paul says that the Gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. I pointed this out to you so that you might see that believing isn't as easy as you imply.

Matthew 11:25-26 (WEB) 25 At that time, Jesus answered, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you hid these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to infants. 26 Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.

Did you miss it? Jesus says that God hides the truth from some people but he reveals it to others. In other words, whether someone understands the gospel message is solely in the purview of God. And Jesus thanked God that he revealed it to his disciples. This is clear evidence that God is responsible for whether or not someone understands the gospel.

Question: Salvation is guaranteed to who?
Answer: Salvation is a guarantee for those who believe and remain in The faith to the end.

Believing and remaining a believer is an aspect of salvation.

Lord Jesus and all the Apostles never state anywhere in the New Testament that faith is guaranteed by God; rather, just the opposite. Therefore, that is something you made up.

On the contrary, we have examined four different passages of scripture where Jesus, Peter, Paul, and James guarantee that those with a proven faith will never fall.

Lord Jesus and His Apostolic Writers all admonished and warned the Christians to remain in the faith to the end to be saved.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) 11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

We both agree that "he who endures to the end will be saved." While you interpret the warnings as an uncertainty, I don't. You argue that since Jesus suggests the possibility of being led astray, it follows that one might be led astray at any time. The state of endurance is uncertain and can't be known until death (presumably). In your view, since endurance is uncertain, one can never know whether or not he will fail to receive his inheritance.

Jesus, Peter, James and Paul teach about a distinctive marker, or distinguishing feature that if present, secures eternal life for that individual.

Romans 5:3-5
and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Exult in hope of the glory of God.
The concept of salvation is often discussed in general terms, particularly in relation to individuals meeting certain criteria for being saved. For instance, we may see someone on the street holding a sign that says "Jesus Saves" or "Jesus saves sinners." However, we cannot make a universal truth statement about any specific individual because while Jesus saves sinners, he does not save every single sinner. At its core, the question we want to answer is whether Jesus is going to save ME personally. Can I make truthful statements about my own salvation?

In Romans 5, Paul uses the term "exult" to introduce a truth statement about individuals. He moves away from broad generalizations and focuses on specificity. If Paul, or anyone else, "exults" in the glory of God, he claims that glorification is certain for him. While it might be uncertain for other people, he lives in complete confidence and there is no doubt that God will glorify him. He has complete assurance of it. Glorification is the final goal, and those who "exult" in the glory of God, as Paul does, are guaranteed to be granted glorification.


we also exult in our tribulations, knowing . . .
Whereas tribulations are a contributing factor for falling away from the faith, Paul exults in his tribulations because the outcome is predictably positive. He knows in advance what will happen. He knows that tribulations lead to perseverance, and perseverance leads to "attestedness" and "attestedness" is a solid basis for confident expectation.

The word "attestedness" is not an actual English word. I am attempting to translate the Greek word which means "the state of having been attested, proven, validated, etc." A faith that has previously survived under testing or tribulation will continue to survive. That's what it means. Paul is able to exult in his tribulations because he knows with absolute certainty that they will always lead to perseverance.

Again, he has employed the term "exult" to make a truth statement concerning himself specifically. While falling away remains a possibility for others, it is no longer a possibility for him and others like him. Those who have persevered under trial can exult in their trials knowing that they will always lead to perseverance.

and hope does not disappoint, because
The subordinating conjunction indicates that Paul will not be sad or disappointed to find out that he has failed to attain the promised inheritance of eternal life. His confidence is based on his knowledge that his endurance has been proven. His endurance has been demonstrated and confirmed to him so that he has the right to place confidence in the outcome.

 

[Behold]

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

"Hears then believes".

"faith comes by Hearing".

So...all those who Hear the Gospel, and believe it.......are given the "Gift of Salvation".

Now, God ALWAYS knows who is going to believe in Jesus, exactly as He know who is going to Hear.. exactly as He knows, when they will be born.., exactly as God knows who will hear and never believe and die like this..

John 3:36

That's God's "foreknowledge"..

See, when God "Knew" all this, about all of us, everyone, who is born since the Cross was raised or who was on earth, when the Cross was raised.... (And God know all this about everyone).... when there was no EARTH, no JESUS and no Cross.

= FOREKnowledge. The Ability that God has to FOR-know the beginning and the end and all in-between, regarding everything, at all times.

So, as God is LOOKING FORWARD to what will be, .. He understands that all who are "IN Christ' are those He Foreknew, would believe in Jesus, or not.

That's not pre-determined......its FORE-KNOWN....(Foreknowledge).

The part that is "pre-destined" is..."to be conformed into the Image of Christ".

That is pre-destined to happen to everyone after they are born again having become "In Christ".

 

[Ritajanice]

You missed the point again. Paul says that the Gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. I pointed this out to you so that you might see that believing isn't as easy as you imply.

Amen!!....100% it’s not.....how can one believe in Jesus without first being Born Of The Spirit.

God brought me to initially believe in Jesus....then he gifted me the faith to believe in Jesus, he made my spirit Born Again,/ Spirit gives birth to spirit.......I can’t believe in Jesus without His witness the Holy Spirit.

That is the Living seed of God...without that precious seed, imo it’s just human belief and leading themselves through scripture....just my thoughts.

 

[Behold]

Amen!!....100% it’s not.....how can one believe in Jesus without first being Born Of The Spirit.

By hearing the Gospel., and "faith comes by hearing".

 

[Ritajanice]

By hearing the Gospel., and "faith comes by hearing".

That doesn’t make sense to me....I was birthed by the Spirit...Spirit gives birth to spirit...

You can’t hear anything from God without being Born Of The Spirit.

Hearing all about Jesus at school, we must receive the Spiritual rebirth, which is Supernatural act of God.

Faith is a gift from God....it’s not mustered up in the human intellect.

We just understand the Living word of God very differently in that area...other areas we understand each other and what is being said in the Spirit, I have always loved fellowship with you @Behold ....

 

[Behold]

Calvinism is a deception, its a "doctrine of Devils"... and one of the ways to understand why this is so.. is this..


1.) God our Father, is a God who demands JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT.

2.) God demands a fair balance and never allows regarding His Behavior, an unfair or 'one sided" end result.

3.) God our Father says that an "unequal balance" is an "Abomination"...

4.) So, for God to pre-qualify some SINNERS before they are born, and not do this for all Sinners...., is an unfair balance and an IN-Justice committed against ALL those who are not given this same estimation by God.

5.) God will never do this.. He will never choose some, to be saved and avoid others, as there is no justification for doing this, when in fact.. .....
= .'All have sinned, and there is NONE Righteous, no not one".

A.) So, to choose SOME as worthy to be chosen from an entirety that are "ALL have sinned, and NONE are Righteous"... is not something that God can do and this be a just balance or a righteous decision.

 

[setst777]

You missed the point again. Paul says that the Gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. I pointed this out to you so that you might see that believing isn't as easy as you imply.

The point Paul was making is plain; that the Gospel is foolishness to the Jew and Greek, but as for humble, whether Jew or Greek, they are receptive to the salvation held out to them in the Gospel and will believe. God has chosen that only the humble will understand and believe. And God's desire is to save everyone who believes.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Did you miss it? Jesus says that God hides the truth from some people but he reveals it to others. In other words, whether someone understands the gospel message is solely in the purview of God. And Jesus thanked God that he revealed it to his disciples. This is clear evidence that God is responsible for whether or not someone understands the gospel.

So, you changed your mind again.

What you are saying now is that God doesn't create people to be evil and condemned, but rather, God hides the truth from some and not others?

Yes, God hides his truth from those who are proud, but if they humble themselves, God's Word is revealed to them. That is all he is saying.

God is against those who are proud; and, God promises to justify and save those who humble themselves and believe.

Believing and remaining a believer is an aspect of salvation.

More assumptions. God saves those who believe (continuous believing). "Believing" is not an aspect of salvation.

I can, and have, shown you many Scriptures that teach that we are saved by our faith, as we remain in the faith to the end. Even the Apostle Paul recognized that his own salvation was possible as he remained faithful.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

You cannot show me one Passage that teaches that:

"Believing and remaining a believer is an aspect of salvation."

Instead, you are just going to reject Paul, reject the Scriptures, to hold onto your own philosophies.

On the contrary, we have examined four different passages of scripture where Jesus, Peter, Paul, and James guarantee that those with a proven faith will never fall.

More assumptions. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever state or teach that faith to be saved is guaranteed by God.

Peter, Paul, and James never stated or taught anything about saving faith being a guarantee; rather, you are slandering them by your own assumptions again. Peter, Paul, and James continuously warned believers to remain faithful to be saved, and I have shown you the Scriptures which, again, you have repeatedly rejected.

We both agree that "he who endures to the end will be saved." While you interpret the warnings as an uncertainty, I don't. You argue that since Jesus suggests the possibility of being led astray, it follows that one might be led astray at any time. The state of endurance is uncertain and can't be known until death (presumably). In your view, since endurance is uncertain, one can never know whether or not he will fail to receive his inheritance.

You got it right here. Only as we remain in the faith do we inherit the promises of God; for, the Promises of God are by faith.

Jesus, Peter, James and Paul teach about a distinctive marker, or distinguishing feature that if present, secures eternal life for that individual.

Romans 5:3-5
and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Only by faith do we have hope in the glory of God.

We (true Believers) are encouraged to persevere so that we might have hope.

Romans 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we [Paul includes himself] might have hope.

Paul offers no guarantee, but rather, admonishes true believers to continue in hope firm to the end that is held out to us in the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23 {{{if you}}} continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Hebrews 3:6 We are his house, if we [Paul includes himself] hold fast our confidence and the glorying of our hope firm to the end.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us [Paul includes himself] hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering; for he who promised is faithful.

Peter instructs us to soberly set our hope fully on that grace in Christ Jesus, which is an admonition, not a guarantee that we will.

1 Peter 1:13 Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Again, he has employed the term "exult" to make a truth statement concerning himself specifically. While falling away remains a possibility for others,

Falling away is a possibility of all Christians, just as is written in the Scriptures. Even Paul acknowledged that if he was not careful, he also could fall away.

Hebrews 3:6 We are his house, if we [Paul includes himself] hold fast our confidence and the glorying of our hope firm to the end.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we [Paul includes himself] have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} [Paul includes himself] not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} [Paul includes himself] will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} [Paul includes himself] do not give up.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 (WEB) 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our [Paul includes himself] admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Faith, with the definite article "the" in front of it means the faith that is being referred to can only be the true faith by which we are saved.

Those who were in "The Faith" can fall away from "The Faith" by not remaining in "The Faith."

They had a genuine saving faith "The Faith" and they fell away.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.

 

[setst777]

"Hears then believes".

"faith comes by Hearing".

That is correct.

Romans 10:17-18 (WEB) 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did; “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

So...all those who Hear the Gospel, and believe it.......are given the "Gift of Salvation".

That is correct.

Now, God ALWAYS knows who is going to believe in Jesus, exactly as He know who is going to Hear.. exactly as He knows, when they will be born.., exactly as God knows who will hear and never believe and die like this..

John 3:36

That's God's "foreknowledge"..

I agree, but we have to make room for God; in that, God, in his mercy and justice, has the right and power to change His mind from what he intended to do (to punish or save) based on whether a person or nation repents, or later on, returns to doing evil. How this all works with God’s foreknowledge of those who love God is not explained in Scripture, but we cannot deny that God does change his mind depending on how a person responds to His grace. For instance:

Jeremiah 18:1-12 (WEB) … 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”’

2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) 3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Revelation 3:2-6 (WEB) 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 “As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

See, when God "Knew" all this, about all of us, everyone, who is born since the Cross was raised or who was on earth, when the Cross was raised.... (And God know all this about everyone).... when there was no EARTH, no JESUS and no Cross.

= FOREKnowledge. The Ability that God has to FOR-know the beginning and the end and all in-between, regarding everything, at all times.

So, as God is LOOKING FORWARD to what will be, .. He understands that all who are "IN Christ' are those He Foreknew, would believe in Jesus, or not.

That's not pre-determined......its FORE-KNOWN....(Foreknowledge).

The part that is "pre-destined" is..."to be conformed into the Image of Christ".

That is pre-destined to happen to everyone after they are born again having become "In Christ".

Correct. You got it right.

Calvinism is a deception, its a "doctrine of Devils"... and one of the ways to understand why this is so.. is this..

1.) God our Father, is a God who demands JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT.

2.) God demands a fair balance and never allows regarding His Behavior, an unfair or 'one sided" end result.

3.) God our Father says that an "unequal balance" is an "Abomination"...

4.) So, for God to pre-qualify some SINNERS before they are born, and not do this for all Sinners...., is an unfair balance and an IN-Justice committed against ALL those who are not given this same estimation by God.

5.) God will never do this.. He will never choose some, to be saved and avoid others, as there is no justification for doing this, when in fact.. .....
= .'All have sinned, and there is NONE Righteous, no not one".

A.) So, to choose SOME as worthy to be chosen from an entirety that are "ALL have sinned, and NONE are Righteous"... is not something that God can do and this be a just balance or a righteous decision.

Well said. God chooses righteously, for God shows no favoritism or partiality.

The Spirit of God revealed this to you through His Word.

To all those who pridefully assume their own opinions onto God's Word, God hides the Truth.

Blessings

 

[CadyandZoe]

God has chosen that only the humble will understand and believe. And God's desire is to save everyone who believes.

Sure, but God is also responsible for who believes and who doesn't believe. Salvation is his choice.

So, you changed your mind again.

What you are saying now is that God doesn't create people to be evil and condemned, but rather, God hides the truth from some and not others?

He does both.

Yes, God hides his truth from those who are proud, but if they humble themselves, God's Word is revealed to them. That is all he is saying.

No. That would mean that salvation is based on merit.

More assumptions. God saves those who believe (continuous believing). "Believing" is not an aspect of salvation.

Believing is an aspect of salvation. Why? Because unbelief is a willful decision not to believe.

I can, and have, shown you many Scriptures that teach that we are saved by our faith, as we remain in the faith to the end.

None of the scriptures you presented prove that we are saved by our faith as we remain in the faith to the end. The scriptures prove that salvation is coincident with faith.

Even the Apostle Paul recognized that his own salvation was possible as he remained faithful.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

You claim that because Paul is making an effort to remain faithful, he might eventually give up. However, this conclusion is invalid because Paul also believes that perseverance in faith and belief are part of sanctification. Contrary to your perspective that Paul is explaining something about his own security, the discussion teaches us about freedom from religious practices. Just because we are freed from the practice of religion doesn't mean we are free to practice licentiousness. THAT is his point.

Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Contrary to your view, Paul is not talking about his own security or his salvation. He is expressing his point of view concerning the significance of suffering for the sake of Christ. This isn't a matter of salvation; it's a matter of perspective. His advice to those who are suffering for the sake of Christ is this. Embrace the noble and righteous purpose Christ has assigned to you.

You cannot show me one Passage that teaches that:

It isn't because I haven't tried. Perhaps you could read the book of Job and contemplate its deeper meaning. Try to empathize with his pain and suffering, and consider the emotions experienced by Job's wife. Why does this matter?

Job 2:8-10

And he took a potsherd to scrape himself while he was sitting among the ashes.​

​

Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!” But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.​

This passage showcases Job's remarkable depth of character. It suggests that because Job was able to maintain his integrity and composure despite suffering so much, nothing will ever shake him or cause him to lose his integrity. Even though God allowed Satan to bring great suffering upon Job, including the deaths of his children and grandchildren, Job never lost his integrity.

Certainly, here's the revised text:

Job's integrity faced a severe test, akin to a "trial by fire" in modern terms. God placed Job in an intense situation to assess his strength of character. Despite being pushed to the limit, Job did not waver, demonstrating his remarkable resilience and unwavering character. Using Paul's wording, Job's character was "proven."

Compare this with Paul's statement in Romans 5.

Romans 5:3-5 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Witness Paul's ability to find joy in his trials. His perseverance showcases his strength and character. A proven character forms the bedrock for anticipating glory with confidence. But he takes no credit for himself. He gives all the credit to God and the Holy Spirit's work.

More assumptions. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever state or teach that faith to be saved is guaranteed by God.

We have seen several so far. There are many others.

Peter, Paul, and James never stated or taught anything about saving faith being a guarantee

We are talking about perseverance in the faith. THAT is guaranteed to all of those who are being sanctified by the Spirit.

Falling away is a possibility of all Christians, just as is written in the Scriptures.

You seem to have a problem with the idea of certainty, so let me soften it a bit for the sake of discussion. Possibility often refers to the likelihood of an event occurring.

• In probability theory, we express this as a value between 0 and 1, where 0 means impossible and 1 means certain.
• For example, the possibility of rolling a six on a fair six-sided die is 1/6 (approximately 0.1667).

So, with regard to a person's falling away, we can ask how likely that might be. The likelihood of falling away is a matter of maturity in the Lord. The longer one walks with the Lord, the less likely he or she will fall away. You might say, well, there is always a chance that someone might fall away. To that, I quote a line from the movie Dumb and Dumber.

In the 1994 movie Dumb and Dumber, Lloyd Christmas says "I'd say more like one out of a million" in response to Mary Swanson (Lauren Holly) saying "What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me ending up together well, Lloyd?" . Lloyd then pauses and says "So you're telling me there's a chance".​

As time progresses, the likelihood of this event decreases significantly, making it practically insignificant. But God does not leave the believer with doubt and uncertainty. He tests our faith as much as he tested Job's integrity. At some point, all doubt is removed.

Even Paul acknowledged that if he was not careful, he also could fall away.

Hebrews 3:6 We are his house, if we [Paul includes himself] hold fast our confidence and the glorying of our hope firm to the end.

Paul's conditional statement implies a positive response. "We are his house if we hold fast our confidence (and I know we will) . . . "

Those who were in "The Faith" can fall away from "The Faith" by not remaining in "The Faith."

A proven faith will never fail.

 

[setst777]

Sure, but God is also responsible for who believes and who doesn't believe. Salvation is his choice.

That is your assumption. Can you show by Scripture that God is responsible for a person's faith?

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

setst777 said: So, you changed your mind again. What you are saying now is that God doesn't create people to be evil and condemned, but rather, God hides the truth from some and not others?

He does both.

That doesn't make sense. If a person is already created do reject the truth, why is it necessary for God to hide the truth from him?

Can you show the Scriptures that God creates people to be evil and condemned? If you are thinking of using "Romans 9," there is no wording in Romans 9 that teaches that God creates people to be evil and condemned.

setst777 said: Yes, God hides his truth from those who are proud, but if they humble themselves, God's Word is revealed to them. That is all he is saying.

No. That would mean that salvation is based on merit.

Can you show the Scriptures that state that our humility merits salvation? Do you even know what humility is?

1 Peter 5:5-6 (WEB) Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” [Proverbs 3:34]. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time

Psalms 18:27 You save the humble but look down on those whose eyes are haughty [proud, arrogant].

Psalms 34:18 Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Believing is an aspect of salvation. Why? Because unbelief is a willful decision not to believe.

That doesn't make sense. Never in Scripture is salvation an aspect of salvation; rather, all the Scriptures state that those who believe are saved.

None of the scriptures you presented prove that we are saved by our faith as we remain in the faith to the end. The scriptures prove that salvation is coincident with faith.

Can you show the Scriptures that teach that salvation is a coincident with faith?

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life

You claim that because Paul is making an effort to remain faithful, he might eventually give up. However, this conclusion is invalid because Paul also believes that perseverance in faith and belief are part of sanctification.

That is your philosophy that Paul did not teach. Paul was definitely concerned that he may be rejected unless he remained faithful.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Contrary to your view, Paul is not talking about his own security or his salvation. He is expressing his point of view concerning the significance of suffering for the sake of Christ.

Does "the resurrected from the dead" have something to do with salvation?

Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Job's integrity faced a severe test, akin to a "trial by fire" in modern terms. God placed Job in an intense situation to assess his strength of character. Despite being pushed to the limit, Job did not waver, demonstrating his remarkable resilience and unwavering character.

Did Job merit his salvation by his unwavering faith?

Did God commend Job before Satan because God created Job to remain faithful or because Job himself remained faithful?

Who won the challenge - God or Satan?

Romans 5:3-5 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Is "Romans 5:3-5" a guarantee that Paul and all other believers will remain faithful to the end?

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) {{{Let us}}} [Paul includes himself as the "us"} fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Paul's conditional statement implies a positive response. "We are his house if we hold fast our confidence (and I know we will) . . . "

A proven faith will never fail.

Peter, Paul, John, Jude, and James wrote their Epistles to true believers who were saved by faith. All these Apostles kept warning the believers about falling away - even giving examples of those who were in "The Faith" but fell away.

Those who were in "The Faith" can fall away from "The Faith" by not remaining in "The Faith."

They had a genuine saving faith "The Faith" and they fell away.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.

1 Timothy 4:16 (KJV) 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Paul warned and admonished with tears for three years that false teachers would speak perverse things and draw away even "The [definite article] Disciples" (true believers who follow Lord Jesus) after them.

Acts 20:29-33 (WEB) 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away {{{the disciples}}} after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up, and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

 

[setst777]

None of the scriptures you presented prove that we are saved by our faith as we remain in the faith to the end. The scriptures prove that salvation is coincident with faith.

The New Testament Epistles are all written to the born-again true believers in Christ for their instruction, encouragement, admonition, and warning.

IF you disagree, you must show why Paul is warning non-believers against falling away when all his letters are directed to the Churches of true believers.

The NT - from Matthew to Revelation - is filled with admonishment, warning, urging, directing, and commanding the true believers to remain in the faith to the end to be saved.

The true born-again Christian is warned to remain in the faith to the end to be saved, for example:

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:6-8 The Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) The Apostle Paul instructs Timothy: 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate

Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning THE faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from THE faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB) 18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from THE faith.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 14 For WE have become partakers of Christ, {{{if we}}} hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end. 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a {{promise of entering}} into {{His Rest.}}

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 10:26 (WEB) 26 For if we [Christians] deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins [Hebrews 10:24-31]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive The Promise

Hebrews 12:14-16 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

1 John 1:24-25 (WEB) 24 Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father. 25 This is The Promise which he promised us [those who remain in the faith], the Eternal Life.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [Salvation is present possession of those who believe, and is also a future hope yet to be revealed for those who remain in the faith to the end in this lifetime.]

Luke 21:19 (WEB) Lord Jesus instructs his followers 19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Revelation 3:11 (WEB) 11 Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB) 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These Passages are all written as instruction to the true born-again Christians as a warning to repent from their fall or to remain faithful lest they fall away and are condemned.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is your assumption. Can you show by Scripture that God is responsible for a person's faith?

There are many but we have been talking about John 6

John 6:35-37

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.​

Verse 37 explains verse 36. Why do some people see Jesus but not believe him? The Father has not given them to him

Can you show the Scriptures that teach that salvation is a coincident with faith?

The scriptures you quote associate belief with eternal life. We both agree on that. However, while you see a direct association between faith and salvation, I do not. The New Testament teaches us that faith is a spiritual aspect of an inwardness born of the Holy Spirit. And Eternal life is assigned to all those who have the proper inwardness.

We should discuss Romans 8, where Paul lays it all out.

Romans 8:9-11

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

What conditions must exist for a person to receive eternal life?

• if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you
• If Christ is in you
• But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,

Believing in Jesus is an essential aspect of spiritual life. Jesus will save those who belong to him. If someone has the proper inwardness - the spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead - then that person belongs to Jesus and will be raised from the dead.

So then, believing in Jesus is correlated with eternal life, but only those who belong to him will be given eternal life in truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The New Testament Epistles are all written to the born-again true believers in Christ for their instruction, encouragement, admonition, and warning.

No, that isn't true. The Epistles are written to churches, some of whom are born-again and some aren't.

IF you disagree, you must show why Paul is warning non-believers against falling away . . .

Not all believers are born again. According to Romans 8, the promise of salvation applies to those who belong to Christ.

I understand your argument. If predestination and election are true, warnings are clearly unnecessary. Why would a teacher or an Apostle warn us or exhort us if the outcome was predetermined? The reason is simple. The warnings become the "venue" wherein the outcome gains meaning and significance.

Though the outcome is certain from God's perspective, it is not certain from our perspective. We do not know if God has chosen us personally unless we take the warnings seriously and consistently obey the teachings. The warnings provide us with the context that helps us understand our experience. In other words, warnings are necessary because they help us make informed decisions and help us evaluate our relationship to God.

 

[setst777]

There are many but we have been talking about John 6

John 6:35-37

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.​

Verse 37 explains verse 36. Why do some people see Jesus but not believe him? The Father has not given them to him.

You can only make the Scripture say what you want it to mean by isolating "John 6:35-37" from "John 6:38-40." Lord Jesus did not stop his teaching at "John 6:37."

For instance:
Where in "John 6:35-37" does Lord Jesus identify who the Father gives to the Son?

The answer is: No where in "John 6:35-37" does Lord Jesus identify who the Father gives to the Son.

Does Lord Jesus ever identify who the Father gives to the Son?

Answer: Yes, in "John 6:40" Lord Jesus identifies that the will of the Father is that everyone who believes in the Son are the ones who are given eternal life.

You like to isolate quotes from their context, and then give your own meaning to the isolated quotes.

You can't learn the truth about anything by isolating quotes from the context of any book and then giving your own meaning outside of what the book itself explains.

Likewise, you can't interrupt Lord Jesus in the middle of his teaching, and then think you have the answers. That is prideful and rude.

Real human beings communicate in complete thoughts. You don't cut someone off in the middle of their explanation, and then make up your own meaning. What you are doing is unfair, rude, and evil.

I have done my best, repeatedly, to encourage you to look at the context of John 6, but you refused. So, I will leave you in your rejection of Lord Jesus' own words.

I don't understand the question.

That doesn't make sense. If a person is already created to reject the truth, why is it necessary for God to hide the truth from him?

Yes, Paul makes that case in Romans 9. Is it fair to our conversation that you require Paul to use your wording to make his point? That's what you want isn't it? You want me to find a verse that uses your wording.

Just read what Paul actually stated without reading your own thoughts into it. Paul never said that God created some to be evil and condemned in Romans 9. That is all in your imagination that you are reading into what Paul actually stated.

setst777 said: Can you show the Scriptures that state that our humility merits salvation?

That's your point, I thought.

Your point is that our humility merits salvation. That is what you stated. Here again is the dialogue.

setst777 said: Yes, God hides his truth from those who are proud, but if they humble themselves, God's Word is revealed to them. That is all he is saying.

No. That would mean that salvation is based on merit.

Can you show the Scriptures that state that our humility merits salvation?

Again, are you asking me to find your wording in Scripture? I don't that is possible. There are all kinds of scriptures indicating that faith and perseverance are gifts of God.

It doesn't have to be the exact words. Can you show me in the Scriptures that teach that believing is an "aspect" of salvation?

setst777 said: Can you show the Scriptures that teach that salvation is a coincident with faith?

The scriptures you quote associate belief with eternal life. We both agree on that. However, while you see a direct association between faith and salvation, I do not. The New Testament teaches us that faith is a spiritual aspect of an inwardness born of the Holy Spirit. And Eternal life is assigned to all those who have the proper inwardness.

This again is your philosophy, an assumption of yours on God's Word.

The Scriptures actually teach that we are made alive (Born of the Spirit) by the Spirit indwelling us.

To be born of the Spirit is Spiritual Life, and is by the Spirit of Christ dwelling IN US:

Romans 8:10-11 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the {Spirit of Christ}, he is not his. 10 If Christ is IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive [regeneration] because of righteousness.

As noted above: To be born of the Spirit is Life by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us (Romans 8:10-11)

The Spirit indwells who to give him life?

The Spirit indwells the believer to give him life (John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:2, 14; Ephesians 1:13-14).

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

True saving Faith is demonstrated by a commitment to follow and obey Lord Jesus. This is the faith by which the Spirit indwells the believer to give them Spiritual life.

John 14:15-16 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

 

[setst777]

No, that isn't true. The Epistles are written to churches, some of whom are born-again and some aren't.

All the Epistles are written to and addressed to born again believers to encourage, teach, rebuke, admonish, and warn. If you still disagree, then read the first chapter, and the first few verses, of each Epistle to find out who the Epistles are written to.

Not all believers are born again. According to Romans 8, the promise of salvation applies to those who belong to Christ.

All the Epistles are written to and addressed to born again believers to encourage, teach, rebuke, admonish, and warn. If you still disagree, then read the first chapter, and the first few verses, of each Epistle to find out who the Epistles are written to.

I understand your argument. If predestination and election are true, warnings are clearly unnecessary. Why would a teacher or an Apostle warn us or exhort us if the outcome was predetermined? The reason is simple. The warnings become the "venue" wherein the outcome gains meaning and significance.

Though the outcome is certain from God's perspective, it is not certain from our perspective. We do not know if God has chosen us personally unless we take the warnings seriously and consistently obey the teachings. The warnings provide us with the context that helps us understand our experience. In other words, warnings are necessary because they help us make informed decisions and help us evaluate our relationship to God.

As you view the warnings given in the Scriptures I provided for your review, does it appear as though the outcome is certain for those who were presently in the faith? Not according to the Scriptures provided.

The fact is that there is not one Scripture that states or teaches that our faith in Christ is guaranteed by God. Not one Scripture teaches this in the Gospels or in the Epistles, or in Revelations. Therefore, you are adding your own philosophy and assumptions about faith being secured by God.

Revelation 3:2-6 (WEB) 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[MonoBiblical]

It never bothers Calvinists that total inability is the definition of their total depravity. They don't believe in the free will that god gave us.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The answer is: No where in "John 6:35-37" does Lord Jesus identify who the Father gives to the Son.

Verse 37 explains verse 36. Some of his kinsmen refused to believe because the Father didn't give them to Jesus. I don't understand why you don't see it. Look at Romans 8, where Paul says the same thing but in different words. Those who are born again, born of God, born from above are those who are "according to the Spirit." If anyone does not have the spirit of Christ he does NOT belong to him. Right?

(more later)

Does Lord Jesus ever identify who the Father gives to the Son?

Yes, Jesus identifies those whom the Father has given to him by the fact that they have seen him and believe his word. However, contrary to your mistaken conclusion, Jesus is NOT suggesting that a person's belief is the reason or the basis on which he chose whom to give.

Answer: Yes, in "John 6:40" Lord Jesus identifies that the will of the Father is that everyone who believes in the Son are the ones who are given eternal life.

Belief marks those whom the Father has given to the Son. Belief is not the basis or the reason why he gives them to the Son.

That doesn't make sense. If a person is already created to reject the truth, why is it necessary for God to hide the truth from him?

What doesn't make sense about that?

Just read what Paul actually stated without reading your own thoughts into it.

I am reading Paul's words, and I am not adding my own thoughts. Rather, I am highlighting the logical connections Paul intends for his readers to deduce from them.

Paul never said that God created some to be evil and condemned in Romans 9.

Yes, he did. You don't see what Paul intends to say because you mistakenly superimposed a passage from Jeremiah over it. Let me explain it one more time.

Paul draws an analogy between God's transcendent creative activity and a potter's transcendent creative activity. The essential idea is this. God is saving those whom he has chosen but he is not selecting people from among humanity based on criteria he finds among them. Instead, just as a potter makes a pot to suit his criteria, God makes a person to suit his criteria.

You argue that God selects people based on whether they believe in Jesus and maintain their beliefs over time. If that were true, God wouldn't be creating pots; he would be selecting pots. Do you understand the difference between selection and creation?

According to this perspective, God does not create people but selects them. He does not create believers or evil individuals; instead, He waits for someone to believe in Jesus's word and then decides to save that person. In other words, this perspective understands salvation in terms of selecting people whom to save based on the criteria and conditions that people exhibit.

This perspective is contrary to Paul's, who depicts God as a creator of pots, not a selector of pots. He encourages us to think of ourselves as the thing molded. If indeed, we are the thing molded, then our salvation is the outcome of being molded by God.

That is all in your imagination that you are reading into what Paul actually stated.

I am stating in my own words what I believe Paul means to say with his words. This must be done because you and I are reading the same text but drawing two different conclusions. In this post I am challenging your presupposition that God is a selector of people, rather than a creator of people.

This again is your philosophy, an assumption of yours on God's Word.

No, I didn't add ideas to the text.

The Spirit indwells the believer to give him life (John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:2, 14; Ephesians 1:13-14).

Please look at the passage again.

Romans 8:5-9

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. ​

Here, Paul draws a distinction between those who are "according to the flesh" and those who are "according to the spirit." For one thing, those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh. Their mind is set on death; their mind is hostile to God; and they don't subject themselves to the law of God. They can not please God.

According to Paul, a person who is "according to the flesh" cannot believe and trust in God. Those who are "according to the flesh" focus on death and are hostile to God. It is not possible for someone who is hostile to God to trust in Him, repent, believe in His Son, and walk in the Spirit. Believing Jesus Christ is clear evidence that someone is walking according to the Spirit, which is a result of being indwelt by the Spirit. Unbelief is clear evidence that someone is not born of the Spirit and is hostile to God.

According to Paul, only those who are "according to the Spirit" set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Is belief a thing of the spirit? Is trusting God a thing of the Spirit? Is repentance a thing of the Spirit? Yes to all three questions.

Paul defines the concept of being "according to the Spirit" as the Spirit of God. He says that if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. And those who have the Spirit of God set their minds on the things of the Spirit: things like faith, hope, love, generosity, humility, kindness, trusting God, believing in God and believing in his Son.

The bottom line is this. You propose that a person who is "according to the flesh", someone thinking of death, someone hostile to God, decided to believe in his son, when we can see from Romans 8 that no such thing is possible.

True saving Faith is demonstrated by a commitment to follow and obey Lord Jesus. This is the faith by which the Spirit indwells the believer to give them Spiritual life.

According to Paul, this is the faith that results from being born of the Spirit, since those who are according to the flesh set their minds on death, and are hostile to God. Being born again precedes the commitment to follow and obey Jesus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All the Epistles are written to and addressed to born again believers to encourage, teach, rebuke, admonish, and warn. If you still disagree, then read the first chapter, and the first few verses, of each Epistle to find out who the Epistles are written to.

All the Epistles are written to and addressed to born again believers to encourage, teach, rebuke, admonish, and warn. If you still disagree, then read the first chapter, and the first few verses, of each Epistle to find out who the Epistles are written to.

As you view the warnings given in the Scriptures I provided for your review, does it appear as though the outcome is certain for those who were presently in the faith? Not according to the Scriptures provided.

I am familiar with your argument, and I disagree with your conclusion. Essentially, you hold that the warnings in scripture are evidence against predestination. The argument is based on the logic of a warning, which understands that warnings imply danger. If the danger didn't exist, then the warning wouldn't be given.

Why would God warn his people against falling away if he predestined them to always endure and persevere? The answer is understood from the perspective of God's transcendent position over his creation. Not only is God divinely assigning a destiny to each individual, he does this through narrative. God is creating mini-stories that serve his overall story about sin, punishment, mercy, justice, forgiveness, and redemption.

Warnings are given for various reasons, depending on the context. The warnings we hear are features of our story, the context in which we live out our calling. The presence of warnings fit quite well into a story about perseverance. A story about perseverance will certainly contain warnings about falling away, heading the warnings, and avoiding falling away. Autonomous freewill is not a necessary condition of warnings.

The fact is that there is not one Scripture that states or teaches that our faith in Christ is guaranteed by God.

I've shown you five or six now.

 

[setst777]

Verse 37 explains verse 36. Some of his kinsmen refused to believe because the Father didn't give them to Jesus. I don't understand why you don't see it.

John 6:35-40 (WEB)

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Lord Jesus, as the bread of life, invites everyone to come to and believe in the Son.

36 But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe. 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out.

Question: The Father gives "who" to the Son so they may come to the Son?
Answer: The Father gives to the Son whoever will believe in the Son.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.

Question: Who are the "all" whom the Father wills to give to the Son?
Answer: Lord Jesus again identifies the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son in "verse 40," starting with the word "For."

40 For (Lord Jesus identifies the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son) this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The word "For" [Greek: gar] in "John 6:40" is a conjunction that means that an explanation follows for what was stated previously in "John 6:39;" in that, "everyone who believes" are identified as the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son.

Look at Romans 8, where Paul says the same thing but in different words. Those who are born again, born of God, born from above are those who are "according to the Spirit." If anyone does not have the spirit of Christ he does NOT belong to him. Right?

To be born of the Spirit is Spiritual Life, and is by the Spirit of Christ dwelling IN US:

Romans 8:10-11 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the {Spirit of Christ}, he is not his. 10 If Christ is IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive [regeneration] because of righteousness.

As noted above: To be born of the Spirit is Life by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us (Romans 8:10-11)

Question: The Spirit indwells "who" to give him life?

Answer: The Spirit indwells the believer to give him life (John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:2, 14; Ephesians 1:13-14).

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

What doesn't make sense about that?

That doesn't make sense. If, as you say, a person is already created to reject the truth and be condemned, and a person can only believe if regenerated first, then why is it necessary for God to hide the truth from a person created not to believe?

Why is it necessary to hide the truth from those who were already created to reject the truth?

Paul draws an analogy between God's transcendent creative activity and a potter's transcendent creative activity. The essential idea is this. God is saving those whom he has chosen but he is not selecting people from among humanity based on criteria he finds among them. Instead, just as a potter makes a pot to suit his criteria, God makes a person to suit his criteria.

God chose to save those who believe, according to "Romans 9."

Romans 9:30-32 (WEB) 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? {{{Because}}} they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

You argue that God selects people based on whether they believe in Jesus and maintain their beliefs over time. If that were true, God wouldn't be creating pots; he would be selecting pots. Do you understand the difference between selection and creation?

God forms for dishonor and destruction those who refuse to repent, and has predestined beforehand for glory vessels of mercy.

Romans 9:20-23 (WEB) 21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay [Jew or Gentile], from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?

• 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared/fitted/adjusted [2675 katartízō] for destruction
• 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared/appointed/predestined [2675 proetoimázō] beforehand for glory

God endured with much patience, vessels of wrath, but the choice is still up to the sinner to repent and receive God's mercy. God does not repent for them.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

God forms into vessels of honor or dishonor depending on if they repent.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 (WEB) 21 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

Romans 8:5-9

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. ​

Here, Paul draws a distinction between those who are "according to the flesh" and those who are "according to the spirit." For one thing, those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh. Their mind is set on death; their mind is hostile to God; and they don't subject themselves to the law of God. They can not please God.

Paul is teaching that it is the responsibility of each individual to either live by the Spirit (which is life) or live by the Flesh (which is death).

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers and sisters, {{{we}}} [Paul includes himself] have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The Spirit of God dwells only in those who first believe, and who manifest their faith by walking in the Spirit to give them life, as Paul plainly taught.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {through faith}.

According to Paul, this is the faith that results from being born of the Spirit, since those who are according to the flesh set their minds on death, and are hostile to God. Being born again precedes the commitment to follow and obey Jesus.

Paul never teaches that faith results from being born of the Spirit.