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Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Love123, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What in the world are you 'going on' about Terry?

    The idea of the two women grinding at the mill our Lord Jesus used is a SYMBOLIC ANALOGY. Just like His idea that you don't put new wine into old bottles (skins), He wasn't literally talking about making wine.

    And if you think our Lord Jesus meant the first one taken there that He mentioned means one of His being raptured out, you are sorely mistaken. The first one taken will be where those fake eagles are gathered that He mentioned. It is a 'warning', not an admonition for His Church. Study the last section of Luke 17 again carefully.
     
  2. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Veteran wrote: " What in the world are you 'going on' about Terry? "

    Well Vet is seems allot of the time a symbolic or generalization is the correct descernment but people tend to redefine is as speciffic. Meaning that 50% of the world would be rapttured. Of course, that is not true and the reference to one being taken and one left was a generalization...that was all.

    you wrote:
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    It does not say that. you added the word " men " and so, put them in bed together. oops Vet. I understand already.
     
  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The idea of symbolic language and analogy isn't difficult. Every people's culture uses both within idioms, figures of speech, etc. And so does God's Word. They are only tools to make something easier to understand, not more difficult. What I don't understand is how so many brethren could be confused about that usage, since we all use them in our daily lives with many sayings, a lot of the time with comparing two unrelated things with each other.


    I was referring to Luke 17:35 about the two women, which you final got apparently.

    I was wanting you to re-read those Luke 17 verses again, especially the final verse...

    Luke 17:37
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

    Its Matthew 24 parallel:

    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    (KJV)

    The conversation thus was, two men will be in one bed, one taken and the other left, two women grinding at the mill, one taken and the other left, and then His disciples ask Him, "Where, Lord"? And He answers,"Wheresoever the body (carcase of Matt.24:28) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

    Our Lord Jesus' answer CHANGES the whole perspective about the idea of those two men in one bed, and two women grinding at the mill. Per His answer of Luke 17:37, a 'rapture' idea cannot be applied to that.

    The reason no 'rapture' idea can be applied there is because our Lord's answer to 'where' those first one's 'taken' is in the negative sense.

    So the next question should be, WHY did He use that analogy of two men in one bed? What's the idea of that bed about? In essence it's about WHO's symbolic bed we are in for the last days, in regards to remaining Faithful in waiting for Christ's return, or instead going to another in spiritual harlotry of false worship. To be gathered where those fake eagles are means being a dead 'carcase' (spiritual dead sense), and gathered to the coming false one in false worship.
     
  4. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Our Lord Jesus' answer CHANGES the whole perspective about the idea of those two men in one bed, and two women grinding at the mill. Per His answer of Luke 17:37, a 'rapture' idea cannot be applied to that.

    I have considered this verse, thanks for pointing it out. If in the rapture the physical body is left behind so the transaction appears to be a mass death related - then it could be the rapture. If not as in your contention then it is certainly a different event all together.
    Even for me who seems to depict the rapture as having definate characteristics, there is also parts in my understanding for further clarification. I expect my current understanding to be correct, but I do have an objective mind here. And I do see your point with allot of validity.So more consideration is required and I will keep an open mind.
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You might desire to use that open mind to look at the idea of being taken and snared per the Isaiah 8 & 28 Scripture, for it is related to those Luke 17 metaphors our Lord Jesus was giving about being 'taken'. It's about being 'taken' in deception. And in deception to whom for the last days would that be to?

    Men's idea of what the 'rapture' is doesn't have much to do with what God's Word actually reveals about our gathering to Christ Jesus when He appears.

    God's Word reveals His consuming fire is going to cleanse the surface of this whole earth, so how does that connect with the idea of the 'rapture'? If you'll notice, the 'rapturists' don't like that kind of connection with their 'rapture' ideas at all! They're main connection with the idea is 'escapism'.

    On the "day of the Lord", which is when our Lord Jesus returns "as a thief", that's also when all on earth are going to be 'changed', in "a twinkling of an eye" according Apostle Paul. It's God's consuming fire burning today's worldly order of flesh man off this earth with that event, as Peter showed us in 2 Pet.3:10 about that day. Zap! and this present world is burned up (surface cleansing), at an instant. No weapon of man can compare with that consuming fire from God, for He is a consuming fire as written.
     
  6. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Not a rapture, but a time for the church to flee...

    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Notice Luke 17:30-31

    Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    First of all, the word day in verse 30 can mean various things...

    G2250
    ἡμέρα
    hēmera
    hay-mer'-ah
    Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

    The context is a place of refuge or safety. Noah and family in the ark, Lot and daughters at Zoar. Lot and his family were told to flee, to get out of Sodom and go to the mountains (and Lot bargained for Zoar).

    Now verse 31

    Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    If this were the return of Christ, would one think to clamber down a ladder, run into the house, grab a suitcase, run outside and say "Here I am Lord." Wouldn't you rather expect to put on a new spirit body abnd spirit clothes as described happens at the resurrection? Verse 31 is talking about the time Jesus referred to in mat 24...

    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    This is at the time of the return of Christ, it is the time of the flight of the church. A time when one might strongly desire to grab a toothbrush and a change of underwear. Not a rapture, but a time when the church is protected in the wilderness for 3-1/2 years as shown in Rev 12:14

    Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
     
  7. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You're confusing two different timeline events, one being the time of great tribulation and the other being the time of Christ's coming. They do not both occur at the same time. The "time, and times, and half a time" is the tribulation timing given in the Book of Daniel and also Rev.11 and 13. That's also when the time is for Christ's servants in Jerusalem to flee that area, i.e., during the tribulation time when the abomination of desolation is setup. Christ's return and our gathering to Him is after that tribulation period per Matt.24:29-31.


    It's not the time of Christ's return, it's the time of "great tribulation" like that verse above says. The idea is for those of His servants in Jerusalem to not go back into the house to even pack up belongings, but to get out of that area. It will be because of the coming false messiah being setup there along with the abomination idol. And then... shortly after that abominaton of desolation event, Christ's coming will be just around the corner to destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2.

    So as long as the time of "great tribulation" is going on, Christ's coming has not happened yet.
     
  8. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley Active Member

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    Jesus talked a lot about the end time. And according to scripture, it will be the evil ones taken away not the righteous.

    Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    In Noah's time the same thing happen, the evil ones were destroyed and he and his were left behind.
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's exactly right, it's the evil and rebellious that will be the first one's 'taken' in the field, because the Luke 17 Scripture about the ones taken is to the fake eagles as dead carcases.
     
  10. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Revelation 7:14
    King James Version (KJV)


    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    One does not take out the evil and rebellious, then wash then with the blood of the Lamb. Notice it says "out of great Tribulation" thus meaning they were IN the great Tribulation. This supports my idea that those rapture come out of the great Tribulation, so no pre-trib rapture and that they are believers in Christ Jesus.

    Please understand my position. During the time I was writing my manuscripts I was given a vision, in it Jesus came to me and I was very alert. He simply asked how I was doing. I considered this later and pondered that if my understanding was complete errors or skewed that I was not understanding rightly, that surely he would have pointed me in anotoer direction. This does in no manner mean that I was not admantly seeking truth through research. I spent allot of time considering each idea I obtained, testing it with all I learned. With this understanding comes a position that is not easily swayed.

    For these reasons..Hhow can one expecct me to alter my understaing simply because someone else thinks their's is correct? Please do not feel this means I think anyone should alter their unsderstanddings just because of mine. This is a method for us to share our diverse perspectives back and forth until a resolve of truth is obtained.

    That's my tail and I am waggin' it.
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So what are you saying then, that the great multitude of Rev.7 are being 'raptured' there?

    That idea I totally disagree with, since those are shown at Christ's throne serving Him, and in relation to Milennium timing events.

    The main subject of the Rev.7 chapter is about God's sealing of His servants PRIOR to the four winds blowing on the earth (which is symbolic of the time of the "day of the Lord" with Christ's coming).
     
  12. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Vet, I've got to say this and trying to remain positive at the same time. Your millennial views are quite unique but I would suggest several more hours or days of study may be needed. You might want to start with this. Ez. 40-46 has zero to do with a "millennial" temple. Ezekial was a prophet during the Babylonian captivity and in these chapters he is given the way God wanted the second temple rebuilt and used. The one that was destroyed in 70 AD. After being "away" for 70 yrs. the generation that returned to Jerusalem needed those instructions because the "know how" was lost during the captivity. Ez. 47-48, I agree may, at the least, have millennial significance.
     
  13. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    Since they came out of - (meaning they were in) the gret tribulation what else can they be?


    Vet wrote: " The main subject of the Rev.7 chapter is about God's sealing of His servants PRIOR to the four winds blowing on the earth (which is symbolic of the time of the "day of the Lord" with Christ's coming). "

    and the ...came out of?
     
  14. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    ***cancel***
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The "came out of" phrase can point only to two possibilities, since we're also shown the idea of their having made their robes white in Christ Jesus, which is from the Daniel prophecy about the trib time. It means either they surivive the trib until Christ's return, or they are killed during the trib and are thus with Christ there per those Rev.7 described Milennium timing events.

    By that you're already showing you don't understand the matter enough to be judging on what I know or don't know, have or haven't studied.

    The temple of Ezekiel is... Christ's Milennium temple. Ezekiel is given the same type of vision of Jerusalem starting in Ezek.40 that Apostle John was given towards the end of Revelation. The dimensions of Ezekiel's temple reveal that it has NEVER to this day been built, and that's not even to mention God's River of the Waters of Life that flow from out of the sanctuary in Ezekiel 47. I notice you did NOT list that Ezek.47 chapter in your "Ezek.40-46" reference above.

    Moreover, the Ezekiel 47-48 chapters are the layout of the 12 tribes in their inheritances in final.

    God sent Ezekiel as a prophet to the "house of Israel". There's many things in Ezekiel that is not meant for Judah's understanding (i.e., the "house of Judah"). Apparently, this is one of them, since the orthodox Jews are planning to build a 3rd temple in Jerusalem in our days. It will not be the temple of Ezekiel either.
     
  16. whitestone

    whitestone New Member

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    Correct. Amazing how many folk like that goofy 'rapture' theory, even though being "taken" is "perishing" exactly as those who were "taken" in the flood perished lol.

    (Mat 24:39)

    And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    (Mat 24:40)

    Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    (Mat 24:41)

    Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Which one do YOU want to be? The one "Taken"? Lol, I sure hope not. Read people! Use your brains, READ!
     
  17. Hezekiah

    Hezekiah New Member

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    Whitestone,

    Way to go!! Absolutely.
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Whitestone.

    I know we don't always see eye to eye on things, but this time I believe you are right on target. Good call!
     
  19. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Well, I've got to disagree with you guys as I do see it as a picture of the rapture. Here's why. Remember the context, we'll use the Matt. version.

    Matt. 24:31 - "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    My contention is the "gathered elect" are the "taken" from the later verses.

    Matt. 24:39-41 - "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

    Let's start with the word "taken" Strong's G3880, paralambano: to receive near, associate oneself with, as in to assume an office, to learn. Remember these are given in the context of Christ's return.

    Now the word, "left" Strong's G863, to send forth, cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let alone, omit, send away, remit, suffer, yield up.
    Now you decide in relation to Christ's return would you want to be rec'd near, learn, assume an office or would you want to be forsaken, let alone, suffer, etc.

    In regards to verse 39, "until the flood came, and took them all away" I would say that it would be wrong to believe this is speaking of the same type as "taken". I would say it's more in line with this verse: Dan. 9:26 - "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    In regards to Matt. 24:28 - "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

    I believe those that are "left" are the ones that will suffer God's judgment. Are we given a picture of that? Yes! Rev. 19:17-18 - "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

    That's what eagles and vultures do. So, imo, I'd rather be taken then become food for eagles/vultures.
     
  20. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Revelation 7:14

    King James Version (KJV)


    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    I rarely re-cite scripture... for most of us here know what God's written Word says already and it seems many just wish to play tennis with God's Word..

    Now. if their body will perish, that they are spared and wash themsleves in the Blood of the Lamb, to be given new and stronger bodies... and in the twinkling of an eye.. I see no downside.


    Kind of neat how God allows one to be addled about certain things. When one opts to stray there will be a way.
    As i have stated many times before... Exactly WHO is a rapture for? According to those claiming the ones taken... are killed... it woulld seem only Satan followers are " taken " too funny... You claim all the non-believers are taken or just certain Satan followers? Can you tell which of those who follow Satan are " taken " and which are left? - lol - you certainly have not thought this through.

    Consider this " rapture " actually has a purpose and that is to spare... people whithout a way of defending themselves against Satan's mark, yet Believe in God and Jesus... Hard example... How could a person in goood health, but in a coma, be saved from the mark? simple...rapture. Your way has them ending in hell. This is of course, just ONE example of many I have posted the like of this many times and not a single person has got past it... alll they can do of course, is ignore it or make a bad attempt at attemping to trim the fringes of it.

    My cotention is the rapture is real - though the term "rapture" was not written, the menaing is clear... and given in God's Word and it is to assist those in the end times that cannot defend themselves against the Beast and his Mark. I will NOT be going in the rapture. This is my tale and I am still wagging it.

    I have avery good idea that the remark I made about which of these Satan's followers will be " taken ": will also be unanswered.
     
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