Unconditional love ?

[amadeus]

hmm, another good Q. Seems to me that the congregation is going to be "democratically" called upon to arbitrate disputes between their brethren anyway, yes? So i'd have to think about that.

In too many places they already have the right to vote pastors in or out. I under how and why such a thing occurred, but I still disagree with it. Where in scripture do we see support for majority rule? Jesus would have been voted out during the last part of his ministry for certain. The truth is the truth even if most people disagree with it. How many of the adults who were saved out of Egypt also made it into the Promised Land? What do suppose would have happened if all of the people in the wilderness had voted against God? They really did, but it still went God's way rather than they way they would chosen.

It can be a hard thing, especially if the pastor or other ministerial leadership is apparently or even definitely wrong. The problem in churches with such seemingly unsolvable problems is that few or none of those involved are really asking God or listening to God.

Was not Moses usually right because he was usually listening to and obeying God? When he did not in spite of the authority God had given to the man, the man, Moses, had to pay the penalty. Even then the people were still subject to the Moses until and if God removed the man's authority.

 

[DicipleofJesus]

besides my post 'go to hell' has anyone any idea of unconditional love - twinc

I have an idea. Unconditional love means two persons accepting g each other as they are and seeking the best for the other while accepting healthy limits of each other. Only have had one person like that. But like duh. She was the one who restored.my faith in such love later in life. It is an honor to have her as a friend because she is a lot more classy then me.

 

[aspen]

In too many places they already have the right to vote pastors in or out. I under how and why such a thing occurred, but I still disagree with it. Where in scripture do we see support for majority rule? Jesus would have been voted out during the last part of his ministry for certain. The truth is the truth even if most people disagree with it. How many of the adults who were saved out of Egypt also made it into the Promised Land? What do suppose would have happened if all of the people in the wilderness had voted against God? They really did, but it still went God's way rather than they way they would chosen.

It can be a hard thing, especially if the pastor or other ministerial leadership is apparently or even definitely wrong. The problem in churches with such seemingly unsolvable problems is that few or none of those involved are really asking God or listening to God.

Was not Moses usually right because he was usually listening to and obeying God? When he did not in spite of the authority God had given to the man, the man, Moses, had to pay the penalty. Even then the people were still subject to the Moses until and if God removed the man's authority.

So what do you suggest if the pastor is not preaching the word of God?

 

[bbyrd009]

In too many places they already have the right to vote pastors in or out. I under how and why such a thing occurred, but I still disagree with it. Where in scripture do we see support for majority rule? Jesus would have been voted out during the last part of his ministry for certain. The truth is the truth even if most people disagree with it. How many of the adults who were saved out of Egypt also made it into the Promised Land? What do suppose would have happened if all of the people in the wilderness had voted against God? They really did, but it still went God's way rather than they way they would chosen.

It can be a hard thing, especially if the pastor or other ministerial leadership is apparently or even definitely wrong. The problem in churches with such seemingly unsolvable problems is that few or none of those involved are really asking God or listening to God.

Was not Moses usually right because he was usually listening to and obeying God? When he did not in spite of the authority God had given to the man, the man, Moses, had to pay the penalty. Even then the people were still subject to the Moses until and if God removed the man's authority.

i would be quicker to agree with that last part if we still chose pastors that way, or still defined "Church" Scripturally, but it seems we do neither. Imo if you wanna run a business, and deal in finances, it is the financiers who own the corporation, or at least hold shares in it. Alternately, if you are running a non profit on donations, the financiers have no say. And i guess "churches" are run either way, both ways? Still researching this, it is quite eye-opening.

Any idea which system is more fruitful? They both seem to have insurmountable issues, but then i note that the Church has no need of either in one sense, yet gains members from both in another. As long as the heir is a child, he is under the servants, even though he is the master of all. Imo churches are a great way to absorb some Scripture, and learn how not to follow God, in a way.

 

[bbyrd009]

So what do you suggest if the pastor is not preaching the word of God?

ha, why mess with perfection lol. The reap/sow mechanism functions just great for that i think.

 

[amadeus]

So what do you suggest if the pastor is not preaching the word of God?

I would suggest the person who sees that stay connected to God and directed by Him. Sometimes God may want us to stay to retain something of truth [assuming that that is what we are] in the midst of hypocrisy and/or lies and/or ignorance. On the other hand God may tell us to leave to a place to which He will direct. I might personally prefer the latter, but then it really should be up to God, I believe. Too many going their own way rather than God's Way is likely what caused the problem in the first place.

 

[amadeus]

i would be quicker to agree with that last part if we still chose pastors that way, or still defined "Church" Scripturally, but it seems we do neither.

Where I have attended for the past 30 years [2 different assemblies] there has been no democracy. In the first place the man in place was definitely as I see it in the wrong place. He was called by God, but not as a pastor.

In the second place the man in place was called by God and he is the only one in my own experience [8-9 pastors] who was definitely called as a pastor. With his wife at his side and a better mind than he has currently he stood firmly for God and truly strived to be led by the Holy Spirit rather than something else. He did not always succeed, but he tried. Without his wife of 66 years for the past 5 years since her death, he has struggled as his own flesh has weakened on him. Still he continues to strive to surrender to God's will no matter where it leads. Few people at home fully appreciate what they have and some are still working to replace him with something they believe would be more suitable.

Imo if you wanna run a business, and deal in finances, it is the financiers who own the corporation, or at least hold shares in it. Alternately, if you are running a non profit on donations, the financiers have no say. And i guess "churches" are run either way, both ways? Still researching this, it is quite eye-opening.

The problem, too often, is as you see it in churches. What it should be as I see it is another thing. We should, all of us, [not only pastors and other called men of God (evangelists, prophets, teachers, apostles and other ministers)], be working toward is what God desires. Do we know what it is? Do the pastors and ministers involved know? It is described in the Bible if we can read it with the understanding of God. If some are working toward it and asking for God's help to attain it that is a good thing, but unfortunately in almost any place there are those on the other side. They may not purposely or knowingly be working against God, but that doesn't change what is, does it?

Even if we recognize the errors involved in a particular situation with us in the middle of it, the question for us is still for us, What does God want us to do? I must always say, Ask of Him.

Any idea which system is more fruitful? They both seem to have insurmountable issues, but then i note that the Church has no need of either in one sense, yet gains members from both in another. As long as the heir is a child, he is under the servants, even though he is the master of all. Imo churches are a great way to absorb some Scripture, and learn how not to follow God, in a way.

For a very young person in the Lord or in the flesh, a church setting which teaches some truth can be better than only a setting in the worlds of men, even though it may call itself a church of God. The problem is that too many churches, in my experience, teach very little truth and what they teach in error [more by practices and examples than by formal teaching or preaching] is likely many times to outweigh the truth for those who have never had more than milk.

 

[bbyrd009]

The problem is that too many churches, in my experience, teach very little truth and what they teach in error [more by practices and examples than by formal teaching or preaching] is likely many times to outweigh the truth for those who have never had more than milk.

i used to see this as a problem, until i saw that it was also a solution. If most are buying what some are selling, why fix what is not broken? Some are not buying, and the current buyers can do as they like.

If dollars work ok for you, why issue Greenbacks? If you are satisfied with a medium of exchange that has already lost 99% of its value, and would even send your sons to die for it, then it is obviously counter-productive for (me, in this analogy) to suggest a better way. Imo God operates on this same principle. "If you like it that much, then by all means go with that, and ignore Me."

 

[amadeus]

i used to see this as a problem, until i saw that it was also a solution. If most are buying what some are selling, why fix what is not broken? Some are not buying, and the current buyers can do as they like.

If dollars work ok for you, why issue Greenbacks? If you are satisfied with a medium of exchange that has already lost 99% of its value, and would even send your sons to die for it, then it is obviously counter-productive for (me, in this analogy) to suggest a better way. Imo God operates on this same principle. "If you like it that much, then by all means go with that, and ignore Me."

I believe I know the solution and unfortunately some of the ministers engaged in error do as well, but they are unwilling to exchange the visible success [a worldly or carnal success, which is really no success] to preach and teach the truth which they do know.

For example most churches stop the service at 12 noon on Sunday. If the man of God at the pulpit has more from God to say and chooses to exceed that prescribed ending time by 30 minutes he is likely to have lost much of his congregation. They simply get up and leave. If he does it more than once, he will likely lose them permanently or they will take what they consideration the necessary action to replace the man of God. What is wrong with that picture? For the past 30 years there has never been such a time limit on our services where I attended and I am thankful for that, but that is hardly the only problem, is it?

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe I know the solution and unfortunately some of the ministers engaged in error do as well, but they are unwilling to exchange the visible success [a worldly or carnal success, which is really no success] to preach and teach the truth which they do know.

For example most churches stop the service at 12 noon on Sunday. If the man of God at the pulpit has more from God to say and chooses to exceed that prescribed ending time by 30 minutes he is likely to have lost much of his congregation. They simply get up and leave. If he does it more than once, he will likely lose them permanently or they will take what they consideration the necessary action to replace the man of God. What is wrong with that picture? For the past 30 years there has never been such a time limit on our services where I attended and I am thankful for that, but that is hardly the only problem, is it?

ha, i noticed that first part when i started hitting various pastors with "the Bible is not the Word." I couldn't hardly get one to even blink lol. They know; but they are engaged in a conflict of interests, and most of them are aware of that, too. These are not bad or evil people, for the most part. They are people who want to lead, being perceived as bosses that people desire, put on pedestals that are mostly not wanted, with exceptions of course. It is the premise that is flawed imo, church is considered service, money = seed, etc, and any "pastor" who does not toe that line will shortly no longer be a pastor, accredited.

 

[aspen]

I would suggest the person who sees that stay connected to God and directed by Him. Sometimes God may want us to stay to retain something of truth [assuming that that is what we are] in the midst of hypocrisy and/or lies and/or ignorance. On the other hand God may tell us to leave to a place to which He will direct. I might personally prefer the latter, but then it really should be up to God, I believe. Too many going their own way rather than God's Way is likely what caused the problem in the first place.

Here was my experience with voting out a pastor. To boil down the two sides, the group who wanted to vote him out didnt like the pastor because they didnt like his conservative view of scripture. I was a new Christian at the time, but i agreed with his theology and, in fact, i still think the guy was scripturally sound. Unfortunately, he was also a total control freak and unapologetically arrogant. So, there was no right answer because the liberal faction of the congregation were right about his intolerable arrogance, but wrong about his view of the Bible. The conservative faction liked his view of scripture, and sort of enjoyed his arrogance; plus, they feared a possible snowflake replacement who would apologize for scripture instead of being tough.

The result made it impossible for him to stay as the pastor. Neither side benefited - the church got their wimpy pastor and lost most of the congregation. The pastor started several churched, all of them folded within a year or two.

Seems to me, Gods will required events to unfold in this manner inorder to change the hearts of the people involved.

 

[amadeus]

Here was my experience with voting out a pastor. To boil down the two sides, the group who wanted to vote him out didnt like the pastor because they didnt like his conservative view of scripture. I was a new Christian at the time, but i agreed with his theology and, in fact, i still think the guy was scripturally sound. Unfortunately, he was also a total control freak and unapologetically arrogant. So, there was no right answer because the liberal faction of the congregation were right about his intolerable arrogance, but wrong about his view of the Bible. The conservative faction liked his view of scripture, and sort of enjoyed his arrogance; plus, they feared a possible snowflake replacement who would apologize for scripture instead of being tough.

The result made it impossible for him to stay as the pastor. Neither side benefited - the church got their wimpy pastor and lost most of the congregation. The pastor started several churched, all of them folded within a year or two.

Seems to me, Gods will required events to unfold in this manner inorder to change the hearts of the people involved.

People really get what they ask for. The children of Israel pressed for a King, even though the prophet Samuel was strong against it and he really was on God's side. God gave them what they wanted because they insisted.

Very likely the problem of your pastor began a long time before you were even in the picture. This is the way is very often is. Unfortunately, you were in with both feet, like it or not. You had to deal with it and probably still carry scars as a result of it. Things like your experience give people who are weak or shaky to pull away from God and churches. It should not be like that, but that is too often the way it is anyway: Ever since the Garden of Eden...

God would want to change people's hearts, but people sometimes will simply refuse to be changed. God does not force anyone to do things His Way.

 

[aspen]

Well, my point is, the pastor’s arrogance disqualified him as a pastor; the church got rid of him, but for the wrong reasons.

It is a fimiliar theme in our countries’ justice system.

 

[DicipleofJesus]

Well, my point is, the pastor’s arrogance disqualified him as a pastor; the church got rid of him, but for the wrong reasons.

It is a fimiliar theme in our countries’ justice system.

So this pastor left your church and then started others that folded within couple of years of starting. And he was arrogant. Arrogance and humility have a hard time cohabitating in the same person. And with the need for pastors to be humble arrogance is more of a liability no.matter how biblically correct he was. This pastor raises red flags I can't ignore. Sorry about your experience though.

 

[DicipleofJesus]

I am sorry but I do not have a problem with Gods unconditional love, and as far as judgment goes, I trust in a just God and tend to leave what happens ' at the end ' to him. I do believe Satan and his followers are doomed to a fiery end but whether or not I believe that ' hell ' exists is another matter.
I have heard all kinds of theories and thoughts, the simple truth is , at this stage, I simply do not know .I am not totally sure I have defined unconditional love, I merely offered up a strand of what I saw from your post about Jesus and the Pharisees - so please do not jump to conclusions about what I understand.
The passage you mentioned , in context, was about Jesus being tested by the religious authorities. The quote revolves around the Pharisees having a go, obviously wanting him to say something so that they could accuse him. I think the bigger question, and a link to the second part, was ' how much do you love God ' If you love God with all your heart, body and soul, the result will be the ability to love others as God does. Now I do not believe anyone of us can 100% claim to be able to do that- I believe it is all part of the journey of redemption and will not be complete until we have gone through death. I do believe that the closer we grow towards God, the more of Gods love comes through and we are able to love others more. I know that I have more compassion and mercy for a wider group of people than I use to have, and yet at times it is a mystery to me- I kind of know it's Gods compassion and mercy within me.
Do I believe Jesus had unconditional love, well I do believe that he could claim to love God in the way that is required, so I am pretty sure he loved as God loved.
That's what I pulled from the reflections on the passage you shared.......
Butterfly

A quick question. You claim not to know if there is a hell. If there is no Hell, why did the Father send Jesus to earth to die on a cross so that the sins of the world could be forgivan?

 

[Helen]

A quick question. You claim not to know if there is a hell. If there is no Hell, why did the Father send Jesus to earth to die on a cross so that the sins of the world could be forgivan?

To restore the fellowship with the man He made, which was lost and broken in The Garden.
My two cents...also what I believe.
( What “ Husband “wants a Bride only because she is scared by a punishment worse than death...to make her “ love”and choose her husband!! )

 

[amadeus]

Well, my point is, the pastor’s arrogance disqualified him as a pastor; the church got rid of him, but for the wrong reasons.

It is a fimiliar theme in our countries’ justice system.

It is a familiar theme probably in too many places. It is good that the pastor is gone from there.

 

[DicipleofJesus]

To restore the fellowship with the man He made, which was lost and broken in The Garden.
My two cents...also what I believe.
( What “ Husband “wants a Bride only because she is scared by a punishment worse than death...to make her “ love”and choose her husband!! )

Sorry ByGrace. That question you anserred was meant for another member in response to that person's post. Did you get it instead? A good answer though.

 

[theQuestion]

There is a difference between loving God unconditionally and loving others. Anybody telling me they do the latter is a liar, pure and simple. In the real world, unconditional love is a myth. The only one who ever did and ever will to any meaningful degree was Jesus Christ.

Even God's love for mankind has conditions!

 

[Helen]

Even God's love for mankind has conditions!

NO NEVER.
That is like saying a mother only loves her child if he is good, and does not love him at all when he is bad...You obviously have never had a revelation of the Father heart of God.