Unconditional love ?

[DicipleofJesus]

I just did have that revelation now thaks to you.

 

[theQuestion]

Alas, that IS the way those that don't know God feel.

Ez 33:11- Say to them, As I live, says Jehovah God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

2 Thess 1:7- And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8- In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9- Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...

Vomit all you want....

 

[bbyrd009]

ha well you gotta admit "Who told you that you were naked?" does not seem very conditional.

 

[theQuestion]

ha well you gotta admit "Who told you that you were naked?" does not seem very conditional.

That makes no sense, but DOES bring up a Very Puzzling.....Question!

 

[bbyrd009]

yup, sure does, huh

 

[theQuestion]

Someone- I think it was John, said it was near impossible to record everything that happened in the brief Time Jesus carried out his ministry.
So its frustrating to have such references made when the details aren't there!

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Late to the thread...

I know a bit about unconditional love! Ha! It's something that comes when I pray for the Father's
Divine Love. It doesn't just 'happen'...unless for a moment, a glimpse, of course.

If a person is speaking about it being impossible....that's because they are considering it
from the everyday, common egoic thought system that we all have and come from often.
It's an easy thought system that births anger, resentment, petty irritations, expectations, vengeance, despair, etc...

However, there are 'higher' or purer states of mind we hopefully have all had at least glimpses of...
when we are filled with grace, clarity...transformed to what feels like an angelic realm...
the Doors of Perception are opened and we 'see'.
It has been called so many things...altered states, cosmic consciousness, Christ consciousness, being in Alpha
(brain waves), or experiencing the Holy Instant.

When we are in this wonderful state and Practice the Presence daily, expanding our awareness to 'What Is'...
it's not hard to have someone do something 'terrible', and yet, love them because we are in a place of detachment and clarity, seeing them
for what they really are...not their mistakes, betrayals or lies.
But, as a screwed up person crying for love, acting out their pain...just missing the mark...just as we have so many times.
Imagine how a therapist often sees their client that is just 'awful'...maybe they scream at their family all day emotionally abusing them, with little hope of improvement...
yet, the therapist continues to see the good inside with
patience and kindness.

We can practice daily seeing as the compassionate Holy Spirit sees...after awhile new grooves are made in our brain...and
this becomes the norm rather than the ego's thought system of irritabilities and indignations.
Refer to Dr. Caroline Leaf's studies on the brain and our 'positive or kind thoughts'.

If we say it is impossible to love our robber or gossiper it will be impossible.
But, with perseverance and grace and the belief that we can renew our mind by grace...these so-called
impossible things become within our reach.

Lemme tellya, I know this to be true...20 years ago I thought this state was lifetimes away.
Not anymore. But, it takes constant focus on the heart, on God, on the highest place you want to be experiencing.
Unconditional love is a surprise by-product of other things...like
opening to the Kingdom of Heaven, adoring God as often as possible, allowing the Holy Spirit to
rule thoughts and not the egoic mind.

So I would agree unc love is impossible for the worldly thought system...it is not for a higher way of
seeing creation...that is deliberately desired and, thus, practiced diligently.

My .02.

 

[mjrhealth]

And it takes putting down ones self, pride, being humbled in teh site of God and men, a hard thing to do for men

 

[Invisibilis]

Unconditional love comes from Truth. It cannot come from anywhere else. Truth it itself is pure. It needs or wants nothing for itself to be true, for it is already true. In this regard truth is unconditional. The expression of Truth is also unconditional and pure. Both Truth and Love share the same traits of reliability, unchanging, always available, fearless, doubtless, not needing or wanting, and real.

To experience unconditional love is to only love what is true. In regards to other people, I see or know what is true in a person and that is what I love unconditionally. Anything other that truth is a lie, a delusion, even a reflection of my own delusions of wants and needs (conditions). What is not true is not worth loving, even conditionally.

There is an old saying about a mother who always loves their child but not love what that child may do. This is because the mother knows what truth is in their child, and they love that.

When it comes to other peoples behaviours of bad fruit, I don't love that part of them for it is an act based on fears which has nothing to do with either truth or love. But what I do see is what is true in a person. I discern them without their fear, and when I see it, regardless of how subtle, that is the part I can love unconditionally. For example, a subtle truth can be embedded in a persons doubt, where they are undecided between a truth and a lie. Knowing that they are even considering a truth is a cause for me to love them.

The Spirit of Truth within a Christian is sensitive to all truths, for the Spirit originated from Truth and loves the Truth. A sensitive Christian discerns every little bit of love the Spirit of Truth expresses. The Spirit of Truth expresses unconditional love through those who are open to it be unreserved (unconditional) faith.

 

[Stranger]

In all the silly things we did back in our early years ...with all our heart we believed that God wanted these things of us....we believed it because leaders that we respected and look up to, told us so.
Only later did I find out that we are each called to actually have a real, live, relationship with God and that He desired to speak to His children heart to heart.

My dad was the one to thank...he was a good bible teacher....but he never pushed anything upon us...After our Sunday meal ..we kids always took our families back to my dads house after 'church'...He ask us what we believed about any certain things...we'd answer...( usually a stock parrot answer) then he'd say -" Well why do you believe that?"
Slowly we learned that a relationship with God through His Spirit is a real and vital one.
The dear men who taught us all the traditional teachings were doing what they had been taught to do. Their hearts were not trying to lead us astray. They believed everything they said.
After ten years listening, I told my husband I could not stay there any longer...I believed that God had much more to show and teach us...but not there in the Holiness Movement.

I believe that EVERY place God leads us through is never wasted...every experience, every place, is built line upon line, not destroyed , not throw away, but a foundation to build upon. Even today..53yrs later, I so often hear our first dear old Pastors voice in my head, speaking a line of wisdom that became a part of me.

Isa 30 "And when ye turn to the right hand or when ye turn to the left, thine ears shall hear a Word behind thee, saying, This is the Way, walk ye in it."

Years ago I and another believer were talking about how we had strayed away from God and how we wasted so many years in so doing, and where we could be now in our Christian life if we hadn't. And the other believer was becoming very distraught over it. And the Lord gave to me the understanding at that moment, as I hadn't thought of it before, to which I shared with the other believer, that yes our rebellious years were wasted to us. But they were not wasted to God. Even in them, He used them to form what we are today.

Just as you say, nothing is wasted to God concerning the believer.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

but God nor scripture says God has unconditional love, that is a utopian fantasy. God says:


Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

all you and your friends here are doing is defining what God's love ought to be in your judgement of what God ought to be. which has nothing to do with the Truth does it? trying to create a false sense of security that God loves you no matter what. this line of thinking keeps the buts in the pews.

thing is, faith is required, and that is a condition.

God's unconditional love is no fantasy. You are quoting from a 'conditional covenant', the Mosaic Covenant. So of course it has conditions. But God loved us when we were sinners without Him. (Rom. 5:8-9) (1 John 4:10)

You say 'faith is required, and that is a condition'. Well, even your faith is a gift to you from God. God requires it, but it is He Who gives it to you. (Eph. 2:8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: is is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

This is not the way 'God ought to be'. It is the way He is.

Stranger

 

[DPMartin]

God's unconditional love is no fantasy. You are quoting from a 'conditional covenant', the Mosaic Covenant. So of course it has conditions. But God loved us when we were sinners without Him. (Rom. 5:8-9) (1 John 4:10)

You say 'faith is required, and that is a condition'. Well, even your faith is a gift to you from God. God requires it, but it is He Who gives it to you. (Eph. 2:8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: is is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

This is not the way 'God ought to be'. It is the way He is.

Stranger

repenting, faithfulness, belief, acknowledgment of Christ as Son of God, so on and so forth, are conditions that must be met, aren't they stranger?

and Jesus is a covenant between God and the world isn't He stranger? and a covenant is a agreement isn't it stranger? and agreements have conditions don't they stranger?

without pasting the rest of the context these verses are in they are specifically for showing requirements don't they, and if there is a requirement then that is a condition isn't it.


Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat_25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Luk_6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:



don't confuse the fulfillment of the law done by Jesus for your sake, as unconditional love. the Lord requires of you that which you can do, He has done what you can't do for you. you can't fulfill the law to His satisfaction to save your soul but you can believe and be faithful con you? you can also fear and respect, correct?

 

[Stranger]

repenting, faithfulness, belief, acknowledgment of Christ as Son of God, so on and so forth, are conditions that must be met, aren't they stranger?

and Jesus is a covenant between God and the world isn't He stranger? and a covenant is a agreement isn't it stranger? and agreements have conditions don't they stranger?

without pasting the rest of the context these verses are in they are specifically for showing requirements don't they, and if there is a requirement then that is a condition isn't it.


Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat_25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Luk_6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:



don't confuse the fulfillment of the law done by Jesus for your sake, as unconditional love. the Lord requires of you that which you can do, He has done what you can't do for you. you can't fulfill the law to His satisfaction to save your soul but you can believe and be faithful con you? you can also fear and respect, correct?

Jesus is not in covenant with God and the world. He is in covenant with God.

The conditions to be met do not affect the love of God for His own. God loved them before He made the covenants. (John 17:20-26) In fact, He made the covenants because He loved them.

As I showed you, the faith you have in Christ is a gift from God. The only reason you believe is because He has opened your eyes to see. He loved us first. Then He provided the salvation for us to obtain and walk in. His love in no way is conditional toward us.

Conditional aspects of various covenants do not affect the love of God toward us. Even when we fail to meet them.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus is not in covenant with God and the world.

hmm

 

[DPMartin]

Jesus is not in covenant with God and the world. He is in covenant with God.

The conditions to be met do not affect the love of God for His own. God loved them before He made the covenants. (John 17:20-26) In fact, He made the covenants because He loved them.

As I showed you, the faith you have in Christ is a gift from God. The only reason you believe is because He has opened your eyes to see. He loved us first. Then He provided the salvation for us to obtain and walk in. His love in no way is conditional toward us.

Conditional aspects of various covenants do not affect the love of God toward us. Even when we fail to meet them.

Stranger

stranger what are the condition for receiving God's love? there are such things that qualify and disqualify isn't there. and Jesus is the covenant by the way but it seems you are trying to turn the argument on that subject instead. if God's love is unconditional then why must salvation come through Jesus? what do you need Jesus for if there are no conditions? as a matter a fact just what are you talking about? when it comes down to it. if it were unconditional then there would be no requirements what so ever for any reason, would there? you wouldn't need to repent you don't have to follow Jesus right? that's a requirement right there. you don't need no Messiah, if God's love is unconditional. your sin don't need covered heck nobody is going to hell according to you. there are no requirements for salvation. heck why does anyone need saved? for that matter according to you there are no condition to God's love, therefore who need Christianity anyway right? that's what you are saying. ether God's love is unconditional (which it isn't) or its conditional of which it is. otherwise there would be no need to believe have faith trust follow Jesus refrain from iniquity do commandments which Jesus says to do His commandments, (its in there honest) seek out the Lord, be faithful to the end acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, receive God's Mercy, so on and so forth.


if there are no conditions then how could this happen:


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



but according to you working iniquity is ok, there are no conditions.



stranger get on some philosophy sites see what reasoning is behind unconditional, really is. if nothing is required the repentance isn't required. and don't expect anyone with any sense to think that if God's love is unconditional that they have to do anything at all, because according to your theology, they don't have to worry about God at all, and they can take the benefits for granted because they're not required to do anything like pay attention to the existence of God. because as you say God's all kinds of unconditional therefore they are entitled to not be judged by God. how can there be a judgment as understood, if there are no conditions? what the heck is there a judgement for, there's no conditions, one way or the other.

God made Satan, He made Him beautiful according to scripture, and Satan was in heaven in the Presence of God, how come Satan's not there any more, if there be no conditions.

 

[Helen]

Years ago I and another believer were talking about how we had strayed away from God and how we wasted so many years in so doing, and where we could be now in our Christian life if we hadn't. And the other believer was becoming very distraught over it. And the Lord gave to me the understanding at that moment, as I hadn't thought of it before, to which I shared with the other believer, that yes our rebellious years were wasted to us. But they were not wasted to God. Even in them, He used them to form what we are today.

Just as you say, nothing is wasted to God concerning the believer.

Stranger

Thanks...good word...

 

[Helen]

stranger what are the condition for receiving God's love? there are such things that qualify and disqualify

By works, for gifts and rewards yes....but for His love..NO!

1 John 4:19 "We love because He first loved us."
He has never 'unloved' the man He created..

 

[Helen]

( Stranger said...Jesus is not in covenant with God and the world.)

said...

hmm

The world has never had anything to do with covenant.
NT man has nothing to do with covenant. Us, in Jesus Christ, is in covenant.
Christ IS our covenant!

Hebrews 6:13 "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself"

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."
Jesus stands in our stead, with God.

That is how it reads to me.

 

[Stranger]

stranger what are the condition for receiving God's love? there are such things that qualify and disqualify isn't there. and Jesus is the covenant by the way but it seems you are trying to turn the argument on that subject instead. if God's love is unconditional then why must salvation come through Jesus? what do you need Jesus for if there are no conditions? as a matter a fact just what are you talking about? when it comes down to it. if it were unconditional then there would be no requirements what so ever for any reason, would there? you wouldn't need to repent you don't have to follow Jesus right? that's a requirement right there. you don't need no Messiah, if God's love is unconditional. your sin don't need covered heck nobody is going to hell according to you. there are no requirements for salvation. heck why does anyone need saved? for that matter according to you there are no condition to God's love, therefore who need Christianity anyway right? that's what you are saying. ether God's love is unconditional (which it isn't) or its conditional of which it is. otherwise there would be no need to believe have faith trust follow Jesus refrain from iniquity do commandments which Jesus says to do His commandments, (its in there honest) seek out the Lord, be faithful to the end acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, receive God's Mercy, so on and so forth.


if there are no conditions then how could this happen:


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



but according to you working iniquity is ok, there are no conditions.



stranger get on some philosophy sites see what reasoning is behind unconditional, really is. if nothing is required the repentance isn't required. and don't expect anyone with any sense to think that if God's love is unconditional that they have to do anything at all, because according to your theology, they don't have to worry about God at all, and they can take the benefits for granted because they're not required to do anything like pay attention to the existence of God. because as you say God's all kinds of unconditional therefore they are entitled to not be judged by God. how can there be a judgment as understood, if there are no conditions? what the heck is there a judgement for, there's no conditions, one way or the other.

God made Satan, He made Him beautiful according to scripture, and Satan was in heaven in the Presence of God, how come Satan's not there any more, if there be no conditions.

There are no conditions for receiving God's love. He loved us before we were ever saved. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ because He loved us and that is what it cost Him to get us back.

Exercising faith towards God is a product of His love, not a condition. He loved us before we exercised it. Same with repentance. Faith is required to come into the salvation that God has provided because He already loved us.

There is a requirement to being saved...faith. Before the Christian comes to that place of faith, God already loves them. God's love for us preceded the condition necessary for salvation. He loved us before, so He certainly loves us now after we have come to Him in faith.

You are making a grave error in trying to identify the conditions pertaining to all aspects of our salvation, with God's love.

Concerning (Matt. 7:22-23), Christ says He never knew them. They were never His. Christ knows those who are His. (John 10:14)

My, my, more rewording to make grace appear repugnant. Where did I say working iniquity is ok? I didn't. I said God's love is unconditional toward His people. You assume the other. You want to make God's love conditional so as to place the believer under some sort of law, that he must do to keep both his salvation and God's love. Disgusting.

God does judge His people. But His judgement does not affect His love for us. The One who loved us and died for us will be our judge. Let me put it another way. Our sin does nothing to influence God's love for us. It, our sin, did everything to initiate from Him a salvation to get us back. That is the unconditional love of God.

What does the fall of Satan have to do with God's love for us? Nothing.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

doesn't matter here, but next ime if you just hit "quote" @ "hmm" and then hit the reftag @ "Stranger said" in that same post, taking you to Stranger's post, then you hit "reply," Stranger will get a tag too. Matters sometimes maybe. oh, you have to "insert quote" to put me in too, it will insert wherever your cursor is.