Unconditional love ?

[bbyrd009]

What's hyper grace - not heard that expression before ?

the problem is, like 'unconditional love,' it kind of depends upon whom you ask!

 

[Butterfly]

the problem is, like 'unconditional love,' it kind of depends upon whom you ask!

lol

 

[bbyrd009]

lol

ha, didn't mean it like that, sorry--lotta ppl don't know how i guess

 

[Butterfly]

Oh, I am bit confused now......doesn't take much !!

 

[Helen]

Well, here is another thing you need to think about.....Would you consider the Lake of Fire judgement 'unconditional' love? Unconditional love as you define it is loving someone despite their actions, yet Jesus will toss untold numbers into the fire for exactly this reason, their actions, and not just their actions, but for everything they have ever thought, and every word they ever uttered. Is there anything in the Bible more daunting than eternal damnation? If God's love was unconditional in the way you define it, there wouldn't be a coming judgment to begin with. It is stated that he loved the world so much that he sent his son to atone for our sins so that we be saved, but that's only for those who come to repentance. Is that really 100% unconditional love?

As I am a believer in UR myself...I just can't help myself for re-posting this. AMEN
That is why the Hell Fire teaching for anyone but the devil and his angels does not make a lick of sense.
God loves unconditionally....and proved it by sending Jesus for us.
I do not understand all the outworking of it...but I believe 100% that God has a wonderful Plan for - " every man in his own order.."

 

[amadeus]

unconditional is a fantasy, a pet dog's love is considered unconditional and a pet dog loves you as you don't hate him or are not a threat to him or what he is loyal to. there is no unconditional love, its only imaginary, and senseless when they try to practice it. its actually enabling for the wicked, and it is those who love wickedness that promote it. not one verse in the bible KJV states "unconditional love" therefore there is no reason given by God to teach such things in Christian society.

Unconditional love for the carnal man is indeed impossible, but for God?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:46-48

Jesus is asking the impossible of us, but if God is in us, why would it still impossible?


Is Jesus a liar?

 

[tabletalk]

My problem [and the problem with very many believers who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost] is still being unable thus far to completely and absolutely allow the old man to be killed. It must happen and will when the dirt is thrown onto our faces if we make with Him to the end. Then we will have only what has been able in Him grow to the end our course. If, and a very big IF it is, we were able to kill the old man as Jesus did before our carnal death, how much more would the new man be able to grow without having to also fight against the competition?

You said: "the problem with very many believers who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost..."
I hope you are not implying that only some believers have received the gift (grace) of the Holy Ghost.
All believers have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 8:8." "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

"If, and a very big IF it is, we were able to kill the old man as Jesus did..."
I also believe Jesus had no "old man" to kill. He was born in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3).

 

[DPMartin]

Unconditional love for the carnal man is indeed impossible, but for God?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:46-48

Jesus is asking the impossible of us, but if God is in us, why would it still impossible?


Is Jesus a liar?

but God nor scripture says God has unconditional love, that is a utopian fantasy. God says:


Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

all you and your friends here are doing is defining what God's love ought to be in your judgement of what God ought to be. which has nothing to do with the Truth does it? trying to create a false sense of security that God loves you no matter what. this line of thinking keeps the buts in the pews.

thing is, faith is required, and that is a condition.

 

[bbyrd009]

all you and your friends here are doing is defining what God's love ought to be in your judgement of what God ought to be

well, all you are doing is trying to redefine "unconditional love," after "God so loved the world" has already pretty much ended the debate, for most ppl anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

trying to create a false sense of security that God loves you no matter what.

God is love, after all

this line of thinking keeps the buts in the pews.

as long as there are buyers, there will be sellers i guess

 

[amadeus]

You said: "the problem with very many believers who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost..."
I hope you are not implying that only some believers have received the gift (grace) of the Holy Ghost.
All believers have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 8:8." "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

No, I was not implying that. I was trying to be careful in my wording, but as you see even with the most care, we still may end up with unintended semantic difficulties. My intended emphasis was rather on problems that believers do have in spite of having the Holy Ghost within them.

"

If, and a very big IF it is, we were able to kill the old man as Jesus did..."
I also believe Jesus had no "old man" to kill. He was born in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3).

Again this may simply be a problem with semantics. Jesus was a man of flesh facing the temptations of the flesh, whether we want to call that the "old man" which Apostle Paul mentions or not. My point here was that Jesus did overcome all of those temptations. Overcoming those temptations is what I called the "killing the old man" even if perhaps the precise description of the "old man" was not the same.

 

[amadeus]

all you and your friends here are doing is defining what God's love ought to be in your judgement of what God ought to be. which has nothing to do with the Truth does it? trying to create a false sense of security that God loves you no matter what. this line of thinking keeps the buts in the pews.

thing is, faith is required, and that is a condition.

"All you and your friends"? What does that mean?

Are we not all friends and brothers in Christ, believers on this forum, in spite of our differences? If we are not, should we not working to be or asking God to help us to be so?

By unconditional, I mean very simply that God loves us in spite of our shortcomings. Our "friend" @bbyrd009 has already said as much in his post #48.

As to a false sense of security, how is it different for you to use that unbiblical terminology than it is for others to use "unconditional love"?

Faith is required for us to serve and please God, but it is NOT required for God to love us.

 

[bbyrd009]

as "Who told you that you were naked?" illuminates imo. God still loved Adam and Eve, God had no issues walking with Adam and Eve, it was Adam and Eve that had separated themselves from God. If you want to believe that hyper-grace nullifies "you reap what you sow," then BAM do so, it is you that will reap what you sow nonetheless.

Equally you might have been persuaded that you need works or do not need works to attain salvation; but regardless, you will be judged by your works, whether you envision some future scenario in which you are literally standing before a throne, or you Understand I AM, or do not, doesn't matter.

ok and since i've apparently opened a wound or something somewhere, about "standards," getting a lot of Qs about Standards and Works now, iow to many minds "Standards = Works," if you are keeping standards and wondering why there is still so much strife surrounding you and/or your church? Standards are Works of the Law to me, so i am just the wrong guy to ask, as i would advise that you leave that system today, and that may not be what God wants you to do; even though i'm pretty sure it is.

Note that you are trying to please men, and not God, and you might also note that you can't please everyone, all of the time, right. No matter how perfectly you keep your standards, there is still strife, yes? Congrats, you have just rediscovered the wheel. If you read your Bible instead of listening to that lawyer, you will know how to proceed on your own.

 

[amadeus]

... Congrats, you have just rediscovered the wheel. If you read your Bible instead of listening to that lawyer, you will know how to proceed on your own.

I know that you were serious in all of this reply, but LOL I did have to laugh as I read it.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know that you were serious in all of this reply, but LOL I did have to laugh as I read it.

ha. I really feel for these people though. I never saw a Pentecostal church such as some of the descriptions i'm getting; only heard of them. How they even keep the doors open i am just at a loss to explain. Couldn't they just remove the pastor and get another? Or does the pastor "own" the church in Pentecostalism? Dunno there.

 

[amadeus]

ha. I really feel for these people though. I never saw a Pentecostal church such as some of the descriptions i'm getting; only heard of them. How they even keep the doors open i am just at a loss to explain. Couldn't they just remove the pastor and get another? Or does the pastor "own" the church in Pentecostalism? Dunno there.

There used to be more good around, at least in the churches, but as the scripture puts it... "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Gal 5:9

One one good thing I saw [not so much any more], was the pastor, even if he missed the point sometimes, was usually in place because he was given the position by God. Unfortunately too many went their own way more than they went God's Way. Consider King Solomon. He was definitely put there by God and he started out probably very good, but in the end in spite of all of his wisdom, he missed an important turn in the road.

Still, is that not better than trying to make a church into a democracy?

 

[bbyrd009]

Still, is that not better than trying to make a church into a democracy?

hmm, another good Q. Seems to me that the congregation is going to be "democratically" called upon to arbitrate disputes between their brethren anyway, yes? So i'd have to think about that.

 

[Helen]

ha. I really feel for these people though. I never saw a Pentecostal church such as some of the descriptions i'm getting; only heard of them. How they even keep the doors open i am just at a loss to explain. Couldn't they just remove the pastor and get another? Or does the pastor "own" the church in Pentecostalism? Dunno there.

In all the silly things we did back in our early years ...with all our heart we believed that God wanted these things of us....we believed it because leaders that we respected and look up to, told us so.
Only later did I find out that we are each called to actually have a real, live, relationship with God and that He desired to speak to His children heart to heart.

My dad was the one to thank...he was a good bible teacher....but he never pushed anything upon us...After our Sunday meal ..we kids always took our families back to my dads house after 'church'...He ask us what we believed about any certain things...we'd answer...( usually a stock parrot answer) then he'd say -" Well why do you believe that?"
Slowly we learned that a relationship with God through His Spirit is a real and vital one.
The dear men who taught us all the traditional teachings were doing what they had been taught to do. Their hearts were not trying to lead us astray. They believed everything they said.
After ten years listening, I told my husband I could not stay there any longer...I believed that God had much more to show and teach us...but not there in the Holiness Movement.

I believe that EVERY place God leads us through is never wasted...every experience, every place, is built line upon line, not destroyed , not throw away, but a foundation to build upon. Even today..53yrs later, I so often hear our first dear old Pastors voice in my head, speaking a line of wisdom that became a part of me.

Isa 30 "And when ye turn to the right hand or when ye turn to the left, thine ears shall hear a Word behind thee, saying, This is the Way, walk ye in it."

 

[Helen]

Hmmm ...have I got my threads muddled up...lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Hmmm ...have I got my threads muddled up...lol

Ha, easy to do here, huh? if you answer a post from a (now) previous page, your answer "stays" on the previous page until you change it, that messed me up for a while