Uncovering the Devil's Strategy

[Dan Clarkston]

@Dan Clarkston - It's a view. I do, and its called History of the Jewish (Joshephus documents events Jesus speaks about concerning the Destruction which was to come forth; though he is not a believer) demolishing, and faithfully believing that in that day, all the events unfolded ending that age.

Slandering someone over a view, is stupid. Mocking or ridiculing, is also to me stupid.

Evil resides in the hearts of man as Jesus has stated.

What happened in 70 AD is not the great tribulation as the devil would seek to deceive many to believe.

Those that believe it was won't recognize the man of sin (anti-christ) when he comes to power in modern times and will end up following him and end up in the lake of fire with him, the false prophet, satan, and all his demons.

Oh well... they were warned!

 

[MatthewG]

What happened in 70 AD is not the great tribulation as the devil would seek to deceive many to believe.

Those that believe it was won't recognize the man of sin (anti-christ) when he comes to power in modern times and will end up following him and end up in the lake of fire with him, the false prophet, satan, and all his demons.

Oh well... they were warned! View attachment 63537

You are free to state your own conclusions, I’m on the side of the battle that says Jesus has won, and now the hope is to continue to suffer with him in death, burial and resurrection to our new spiritual life in faith towards God.

I don’t personally get a desire for the events to happen all over again which to me is just nonsense. Though people will always battle a view it doesn’t make it any less valid.

From a faithful stand point. Thanks Dave for your comments.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You are free to state your own conclusions, I’m on the side of the battle that says Jesus has won

You do realize that Jesus has not assumed absolute control over this world as of yet, right?
We see in the Book of Hebrews that Jesus has not assumed full control over this world yet:

Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. for in that
He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put
under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him

And, we also see that the devil is called the god of this world which
will not change until Jesus returns to start His 1000 year reign and
throws the devil and his demons in to hell.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which
believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who
is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus speaking of the devil, says he is the prince of this world.

John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

And we see that the last enemy put under foot is death which has not happened as of yet.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I don’t personally get a desire for the events to happen all over again which to me is just nonsense.

What happened in 70 AD is a small preview of coming events that will take place world wide... not just regional as the events of 70 AD were

From a faithful stand point. Thanks Dave for your comments.

Dave's not here!

 

[Hepzibah]

Right now I'm reading the Secret of God's presence that Murray wrote. I also read it many years ago, but understand it better now. I gather that with Keswick it might have been that the flesh was handling something that was truth, as so often happens. Kind of making it into a compulsory "law" instead of being a matter of faith and growth voluntarily (not under compulsion)...? Often it seems that when a move of God happens, it's good for a while until the flesh starts to interfere with what God is doing.

Yes amen.

Look forward to what further things you have to say about Andrew Murray's take on this subject.

Thanks @Lizbeth I have now finished the Andrew Murray book I was reading, which reminded me of how his writings are often a labour of love to read, as he does tend to ramble on.

I was pleased to find that his interpretation of Romans 7 is the same as the early church, whereas today it is split between the unsaved v the Reformed version as the ongoing fight of the believer - spirit against flesh, as the normal state. This is the third little know interpretation of this chapter, and in fact all of Romans 6, 7 and 8, the most important part of scripture I think.

He rightly says that it is the believer who is under conviction of the Holy Spirit, before he is enlightened, or the Purgation period, on the highway of holiness.

However, he gets one thing not in accordance with early writings when he says that we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within, at conversion and it is then a matter of recognising Him for the baptism of the Spirit. He says we are saved at that point, before Spirit baptism whereas early teaching says we are only saved at that baptism (which some mistakenly think they mean just of water when they both often occurred together when apostles laid hands on them).

Realising one is not yet saved, though has had a genuine encounter with the living God and has the Holy Spirit working in one (which is not the same as the indwelling) has usually been rejected as 'too hard a saying', but is at the basis of most genuine revivals. It shakes people out of complacency if they are genuinely seeking and not discounting those pricks to the conscience in the wee small hours, that many will say is the devil.

The strong desire for a deeper knowledge and fellowship with the Lord is also a signpost.

But the important thing is that Murray is preaching holiness and the need to come to Christ again, in the repentance granted by God, for the fullness in understanding what exactly Jesus has done for us, though revelation, on the cross whereby we can truly join with Him in crucifixion and resurrection, in reality and not just conjecture.

George Fox speaks very eloquently on the period of conviction/Purgation in his journal.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are free to state your own conclusions, I’m on the side of the battle that says Jesus has won, and now the hope is to continue to suffer with him in death, burial and resurrection to our new spiritual life in faith towards God.

I don’t personally get a desire for the events to happen all over again which to me is just nonsense. Though people will always battle a view it doesn’t make it any less valid.

From a faithful stand point. Thanks Dave for your comments.

The devil has been defeated, yes........however in spite of that we can see that most of the whole world is obviously still under his dominion, living in darkness and still under the wrath of God. Because it takes an act of God to awaken a soul out of spiritual death and lift that soul out of the mud and mire of the world and the flesh, which marks the beginning of our faith. And I believe it likewise takes a second act of God to "finish" it, for souls who are willing and seeking. Israel being our example....the Israelites were "circumcised a second time"...the second time it was a consecration to take possession of what had been promised...the Promised Land.

Please test this and ask the Lord....but as far as the judgment of "Mystery Babylon" goes.....I agree that it happened in the first century, but also wonder if it is sadly going to happen again. There is a principle Solomon wrote of...."what has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun"......and in Revelation it says Mystery Babylon will be judged "double". It also says in Isaiah 40:2 that Israel pays double (twice) for her sins. If apostate Israel doubles down on her rejection of Christ by returning to Temple sacrificial system and leading other souls of the world astray to their interfaith agenda of using the Temple to unite all faiths and religions, I think it must tragically lead to the same judgment as in 70AD. If I'm understanding this properly and seeing through a glass darkly. Just something to consider....topic for another day and another thread.

 

[MatthewG]

I'll pass @Lizbeth. The struggle everyone faces is being faithful and trusting Father in heaven....

I have heard of "double prophecy" that is all garbage. While people continue to believe that the devil is around, doesn't make it true. That is just simply the deal.

I talked to a man in a taco bell who said the end was near during trump vs clinton. Oh look nothing happened. All these predictions and stuff, are totally uncalled for fake promises and fake hope.

Where as my view which I see Jesus and his finished work and his getting the bride, completed and never was it ever to happen again, as Jesus himself proclaimed, so all these double prophecy people are wrong.

I am not gonna just go along with you. I don't have to ask the LORD anything, to believe and trust his mission was done and Yeshua promised and did come back for the group of people called the bride of Christ - which spiritually we become apart of the family of God through Yeshua in faith....

Just so many false propaganda and it always doesn't come from the bible it comes from what a person truly desires and would want to happen.


There is hope in going to be with God, there is trust in knowing the devil is defeated and he has been done away with as the bible itself proclaims. Otherwise you are just believing yourself and what you believe must happen, and that is totally fine with me, I just don't subscribe to such ideas.

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks @Lizbeth I have now finished the Andrew Murray book I was reading, which reminded me of how his writings are often a labour of love to read, as he does tend to ramble on.

Glad you said that, so it's not just me and my aging brain. Maybe there were no such things as editors in those days, lol.

I was pleased to find that his interpretation of Romans 7 is the same as the early church, whereas today it is split between the unsaved v the Reformed version as the ongoing fight of the believer - spirit against flesh, as the normal state. This is the third little know interpretation of this chapter, and in fact all of Romans 6, 7 and 8, the most important part of scripture I think.

Maybe we are to look at Rom 7 as not being the state we are to camp out permanently in, but keep moving forward and pass through that stage, like the Israelites passing through the wilderness, eventually to receive what has been promised, pictured as the Promised Land. The problem seems to be that most of Christendom assumes the Rom 7 struggle is inevitably permanent in this life, and it then can become a way of excusing the flesh. As far as being saved.....I believe, to my understanding, that we "were saved" when we came to faith, but there is also a matter that we are "being saved" in an ongoing sense, and then the salvation that comes to us in that second blessing, and also salvation at the end of this life. I believe "God will judge His people" based on many factors....whether we were sincere in our pursuit of righteousness, or whether we took salvation for granted and were careless in our walk, or what opportunities and hindrances we might have had or not had. I think the thief on the cross is an example of someone who received salvation but didn't haven any opportunity to grow or proceed further in this life.

He rightly says that it is the believer who is under conviction of the Holy Spirit, before he is enlightened, or the Purgation period, on the highway of holiness.

Amen... I'm thinking of this as the betrothal period in scrpture. We are to be preparing for the actual wedding to come. Submitting our selves to the elaborate preparations of the betrothed which are necessary before going in to the King. Bathing, cleansing, scrubbed and perfumed and dressed appropriately and putting on "jewels", being without spot or wrinkle etc. Amen, purged. "He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor." No one ever said this would be easy, heh. It is through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of heaven, chastised as sons.

However, he gets one thing not in accordance with early writings when he says that we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within, at conversion and it is then a matter of recognising Him for the baptism of the Spirit. He says we are saved at that point, before Spirit baptism whereas early teaching says we are only saved at that baptism (which some mistakenly think they mean just of water when they both often occurred together when apostles laid hands on them).

Jesus, after His death/resurrection, blew on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. This was before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them at Pentecost. I think we do receive the Holy Spirit at conversion...that is how we receive faith not of our own and how He awakens our dead spirit and reconciles us to God.......but that is not the same thing as being fully possessed by Him. It is only like the bride price given at the time of betrothal.....we receive the earnest of the Spirit which is a guarantee of what has been promised.... but we have not yet fully received what has been promised, which is to be fully possessed by Him. The Lord showed me one time, that the "fullness" is like the "earnest" welling up and out of us....the fullness coming from what we have already received....fountains of the deep breaking forth. The idea of a seed planted in us that finally grows to break through the ground and become a fruitful crop..

However, he gets one thing not in accordance with early writings when he says that we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within, at conversion and it is then a matter of recognising Him for the baptism of the Spirit. He says we are saved at that point, before Spirit baptism whereas early teaching says we are only saved at that baptism (which some mistakenly think they mean just of water when they both often occurred together when apostles laid hands on them).

Realising one is not yet saved, though has had a genuine encounter with the living God and has the Holy Spirit working in one (which is not the same as the indwelling) has usually been rejected as 'too hard a saying', but is at the basis of most genuine revivals. It shakes people out of complacency if they are genuinely seeking and not discounting those pricks to the conscience in the wee small hours, that many will say is the devil.

I think in terms that a little child or baby belongs to the family just as much as when he/she is full grown. Betrothal in scripture was considered just as binding as the actual marriage with the betrothed maiden being considered as belonging to her groom.....it really was considered to be marriage that had just had not yet been consummated...to the point where the groom would have to "divorce" the one he was betrothed to if he changed his mind, and he could only do that for a legitimate reason such as fornication. I don't agree that believers who are not yet walking in full maturity are unsaved.....that idea would pull the foundation out from under our faith. Only if we were to fall away would we be unsaved....which is a more of a danger to the "young".....who are less purged and more easily blown about by every wind of false doctrine, etc. And I suspect those who never grow at all would be in more danger of dying out really....growth is a sign of life. But many do need shaking out of complacency and have a healthy fear of the Lord because He is going to judge us all....certainly agree with that in principle.

The strong desire for a deeper knowledge and fellowship with the Lord is also a signpost.

But the important thing is that Murray is preaching holiness and the need to come to Christ again, in the repentance granted by God, for the fullness in understanding what exactly Jesus has done for us, though revelation, on the cross whereby we can truly join with Him in crucifixion and resurrection, in reality and not just conjecture.

George Fox speaks very eloquently on the period of conviction/Purgation in his journal.

Amen. And I appreciate the discussion sister...there aren't many around to talk with about these things.

 

[Lizbeth]

I'll pass @Lizbeth. The struggle everyone faces is being faithful and trusting Father in heaven....

I have heard of "double prophecy" that is all garbage. While people continue to believe that the devil is around, doesn't make it true. That is just simply the deal.

I talked to a man in a taco bell who said the end was near during trump vs clinton. Oh look nothing happened. All these predictions and stuff, are totally uncalled for fake promises and fake hope.

Where as my view which I see Jesus and his finished work and his getting the bride, completed and never was it ever to happen again, as Jesus himself proclaimed, so all these double prophecy people are wrong.

I am not gonna just go along with you. I don't have to ask the LORD anything, to believe and trust his mission was done and Yeshua promised and did come back for the group of people called the bride of Christ - which spiritually we become apart of the family of God through Yeshua in faith....

Just so many false propaganda and it always doesn't come from the bible it comes from what a person truly desires and would want to happen.


There is hope in going to be with God, there is trust in knowing the devil is defeated and he has been done away with as the bible itself proclaims. Otherwise you are just believing yourself and what you believe must happen, and that is totally fine with me, I just don't subscribe to such ideas.

Completely agree the devil has been defeated and Jesus took back his rule from him. Just that the devil didn't get the memo, and neither did most of the world. The devil is acting illegally, as I think of it. The truth is only manifested in those who believe/receive it. There is so often a difference or disconnect between what is true as far as heaven is concerned and the facts on the ground. I believe this is what Jesus meant when He said to pray that God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. (that requires ears to hear it in spirit) Paul certainly wasn't lying when he said the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.......if that or any scripture contradicts something we believe, then it is our thinking that needs to change or be tweeked, not the scripture.

But on the other subject, do you mean to say you don't believe this world is going to be judged? What is your understanding of 2Peter 3?

Please don't be upset or angry if you need to go back to the drawing board on some things. I'm sure we've all been there, I know I have....it's all part of growing and learning.

 

[MatthewG]

@Lizbeth, what do you think about Jesus saying he was coming quickly 7 times, to a group whom was under duress, and hoping to get out of the destruction which was coming upon their nation?

Satan, Israel, was the devil looking to consume everything, by getting people going in the way of "Material Israel" rather than what Yeshua had come to bring "Spiritual Heavenly Israel."

Jesus called them people a brood of snakes, children of Satan.



You keep saying yes the devil is defeated, but i dont think that can be so if he is still around. He isn't defeated and his head has not be crushed.

Therefore you can't say that. You can only say "We haven't won the war yet." Or "Jesus hasn't had the victory yet." Cause it seems to me that many others they say that "Yes the devil is defeated" BUT! "He doing this and that and this."

That's why I accept the letter of that day Revelation, to be for them in that day in age, which dealt with Israel all together in the promise of their destruction in the Old Testament.

It has some spiritual application perhaps in some areas, but many of those things in that book pertained to material destruction.


I believe today we do live in the new heavens and earth which is a spiritual claiming, not a material. Thus I believe faithfully without proof that the things which were done were done, while there is proof of the material destruction.

Satan has been taken out, and done away with.

Welcome to the new heavens and new earth, where total responsibility before God resides on you and whatever you decide to do faithfully with God in your life. And all of us know it only takes faith, to please God. Whatever one does build spiritually, or build materially for here, is totally up to an individual.





People aren't able to say "Matthew doesn't have faith, matthew doesn't believe the bible, Matthew just need our help, to help him understand" --- Cause I got a good reasoning for everything and why I do believe like I do, with the indications of the bible which just being here is too short to "really talk about."

 

[Lizbeth]

Completely agree the devil has been defeated and Jesus took back his rule from him. Just that the devil didn't get the memo, and neither did most of the world. The devil is acting illegally, as I think of it. The truth is only manifested in those who believe/receive it. There is so often a difference or disconnect between what is true as far as heaven is concerned and the facts on the ground. I believe this is what Jesus meant when He said to pray that God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. (that requires ears to hear it in spirit) Paul certainly wasn't lying when he said the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.......if that or any scripture contradicts something we believe, then it is our thinking that needs to change or be tweeked, not the scripture.

But on the other subject, do you mean to say you don't believe this world is going to be judged? What is your understanding of 2Peter 3?

Please don't be upset or angry if you need to go back to the drawing board on some things. I'm sure we've all been there, I know I have....it's all part of growing and learning.

@Lizbeth, what do you think about Jesus saying he was coming quickly 7 times, to a group whom was under duress, and hoping to get out of the destruction which was coming upon their nation?

Satan, Israel, was the devil looking to consume everything, by getting people going in the way of "Material Israel" rather than what Yeshua had come to bring "Spiritual Heavenly Israel."

Jesus called them people a brood of snakes, children of Satan.



You keep saying yes the devil is defeated, but i dont think that can be so if he is still around. He isn't defeated and his head has not be crushed.

Therefore you can't say that. You can only say "We haven't won the war yet." Or "Jesus hasn't had the victory yet." Cause it seems to me that many others they say that "Yes the devil is defeated" BUT! "He doing this and that and this."

That's why I accept the letter of that day Revelation, to be for them in that day in age, which dealt with Israel all together in the promise of their destruction in the Old Testament.

It has some spiritual application perhaps in some areas, but many of those things in that book pertained to material destruction.


I believe today we do live in the new heavens and earth which is a spiritual claiming, not a material. Thus I believe faithfully without proof that the things which were done were done, while there is proof of the material destruction.

Satan has been taken out, and done away with.

Welcome to the new heavens and new earth, where total responsibility before God resides on you and whatever you decide to do faithfully with God in your life. And all of us know it only takes faith, to please God. Whatever one does build spiritually, or build materially for here, is totally up to an individual.





People aren't able to say "Matthew doesn't have faith, matthew doesn't believe the bible, Matthew just need our help, to help him understand" --- Cause I got a good reasoning for everything and why I do believe like I do, with the indications of the bible which just being here is too short to "really talk about."

Have you considered that the Lord speaks on more than one level in His word....that there can be more than one layer to the truth? It says in one of the Psalms, "one thing have I heard, two things God has said." That maybe everything was to the Jew first, then the Gentile? He judged Israel (and I believe will do so again) but hasn't judged the world (Gentiles) yet. I still have a lot to learn, but to my understanding the new heavens and new earth represent the new covenant (and new creation) to the Jews/Israel. The Jews/Israel going from the old covenant to the gospel...the new covenant replacing the old. In 70 AD the old covenant essentially passed away, so yes there was only the new heavens/earth, new covenant left for them (if they would only receive it). Then to the believing Gentile I believe it speaks on another level. To my understanding the Lord is going to judge His (mostly Gentile) church too in her apostasy, since Israel is our example.

Do you think this passage below no longer applies to the church:

Eph 6:10-13

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

I have seen demons manifest in other people. And I was sovereignly delivered of one myself at one time and saw it as it left...it appeared like an imp, like a small brown monkey with no ears and no tail. The Lord showed me the door through which it had come and I repented of it. Wasn't even a physical sin, but emotional.....which I didn't even know was sin....and this is why we need to guard our hearts and not be led by or give way to our unsanctified fleshly emotions. Our emotions, like every aspect of our life, need to be reigned in like wild horses and brought under the rule of the Lord. Thankfully I learned through it.

Do you believe this below has already been fulfilled, or how do you see it?

1Co 15:22-28

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, TILL he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Heb 2:8

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now WE DO NOT YET SEE all things put under him.

 

[MatthewG]

I don't really believe you, but can't deny your experience, sorry I don't honestly feel like reading all of that, @Lizbeth.

I explained my position you can either accept or reject it. Im not gonna continue to stop just because someone else had a supposed "experieenced" in telling people the devil is done away with.

You either accept it or you dont.

I don't care, you just continue to suppose I am wrong thats fine, Ill stay in my wrong lane.

I rather be fully blunt than half a flake.


I do believe everything is underneath the feet of Jesus. Im not gonna change my view to those who don't believe it to be true.


Jesus said the heart of man is evil, if people don't get that I don't know what to tell them. People can be "demon-like" however not in turn DEMONS themselves... which I don't believe are around either.


Though darkness continues to exist, andso it is in the heart of man, which can only change by and through Christ, as long as they continue to hold his hand.

 

[Hepzibah]

Glad you said that, so it's not just me and my aging brain. Maybe there were no such things as editors in those days, lol.

LOL it does not seem so.

Maybe we are to look at Rom 7 as not being the state we are to camp out permanently in, but keep moving forward and pass through that stage, like the Israelites passing through the wilderness, eventually to receive what has been promised, pictured as the Promised Land. The problem seems to be that most of Christendom assumes the Rom 7 struggle is inevitably permanent in this life, and it then can become a way of excusing the flesh.

I agree entirely with this. Reaching chapter 8 is the promised land - in this life, freed from the presence of sin.

As far as being saved.....I believe, to my understanding, that we "were saved" when we came to faith,

My opinion is that salvation means being delivered from the state wherein we are not as God intended ie as sinners and is the end result of the salvation process which is union with Christ.

but there is also a matter that we are "being saved" in an ongoing sense, and then the salvation that comes to us in that second blessing, and also salvation at the end of this life. I believe "God will judge His people" based on many factors....whether we were sincere in our pursuit of righteousness, or whether we took salvation for granted and were careless in our walk, or what opportunities and hindrances we might have had or not had. I think the thief on the cross is an example of someone who received salvation but didn't haven any opportunity to grow or proceed further in this life.

I agree in the main.

Amen... I'm thinking of this as the betrothal period in scrpture. We are to be preparing for the actual wedding to come. Submitting our selves to the elaborate preparations of the betrothed which are necessary before going in to the King. Bathing, cleansing, scrubbed and perfumed and dressed appropriately and putting on "jewels", being without spot or wrinkle etc. Amen, purged. "He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor." No one ever said this would be easy, heh. It is through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of heaven, chastised as sons.

Amen to this.

Jesus, after His death/resurrection, blew on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. This was before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them at Pentecost. I think we do receive the Holy Spirit at conversion...that is how we receive faith not of our own and how He awakens our dead spirit and reconciles us to God.......but that is not the same thing as being fully possessed by Him. It is only like the bride price given at the time of betrothal.....we receive the earnest of the Spirit which is a guarantee of what has been promised.... but we have not yet fully received what has been promised, which is to be fully possessed by Him. The Lord showed me one time, that the "fullness" is like the "earnest" welling up and out of us....the fullness coming from what we have already received....fountains of the deep breaking forth. The idea of a seed planted in us that finally grows to break through the ground and become a fruitful crop..

Again agreed. The breathing on of the Spirit does not necessarily mean that He is able to dwell within.

I think in terms that a little child or baby belongs to the family just as much as when he/she is full grown. Betrothal in scripture was considered just as binding as the actual marriage with the betrothed maiden being considered as belonging to her groom.....it really was considered to be marriage that had just had not yet been consummated...to the point where the groom would have to "divorce" the one he was betrothed to if he changed his mind, and he could only do that for a legitimate reason such as fornication. I don't agree that believers who are not yet walking in full maturity are unsaved.....that idea would pull the foundation out from under our faith.

I don't believe that it puts one in the same position as unbelievers. But the fact is that they are not saved from sin and Christ came to save us from sin. The judgement takes into consideration the state of their hearts but all of His followers are given the chance of responding to the pricks of their conscious. I believe that perhaps they see their error on their deathbeds which must cause much grief for the opportunity they missed to honour Christ, though they escape by the skin of their teeth.

Only if we were to fall away would we be unsaved....which is a more of a danger to the "young".....who are less purged and more easily blown about by every wind of false doctrine, etc. And I suspect those who never grow at all would be in more danger of dying out really....growth is a sign of life. But many do need shaking out of complacency and have a healthy fear of the Lord because He is going to judge us all....certainly agree with that in principle.


Amen. And I appreciate the discussion sister...there aren't many around to talk with about these things.

Thank you and I appreciate it too.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The devil has been defeated, yes........however in spite of that we can see that most of the whole world is obviously still under his dominion

Since the majority of the world is still under the devil's dominion ... this shows that Hebrews 2:8 is correct and true:

Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. for in that
He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put
under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him

Simply put, Jesus has not yet exercised the dominion over darkness that He won during His death, burial and resurrection

Once He does, the door for salvation will be closed... so He is delaying exercising the absolute dominion He won at His resurrection because the husbandman (the Father, see JOHN 15:1) is waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, and has long patience for it.

James 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

 

[Lizbeth]

I do believe everything is underneath the feet of Jesus. Im not gonna change my view to those who don't believe it to be true.

I do believe it is true, as I have said. Just that apparently there is still an ongoing battle to enforce that truth. And the last enemy to be defeated will be death.

Jesus said the heart of man is evil, if people don't get that I don't know what to tell them

I do get that and totally agree with it. We are the ones who are responsible for any access the devil has to our life and heart. We're the ones who gave him a foothold even if we aren't aware of it or know how we did it. It often takes the Lord to graciously shine His light so we can see by and become aware of what we need to repent of. Repentance is one of the best kept secrets in Christendom....for healing, deliverance and growth. There are those who unfortunately believe we never need to repent of anything since we are saved. Believing that will leave them stuck in spiritual babyhood I fear.

People can be "demon-like" however not in turn DEMONS themselves... which I don't believe are around either.

I've seen demons manifesting a few times over the years. A couple of times it was like time was standing still....seeing in the spirit realm. You hear people talk of shape-shifting.....that sounds an awful lot like some of what I've seen, only they wouldn't know it is a demon manifesting if they aren't believers. There are many testimonies from credible Christians of such things and of course the bible talks about it. It's not flaky at all...unless some make it so by not approaching it properly.

 

[MatthewG]

I do believe it is true, as I have said. Just that apparently there is still an ongoing battle to enforce that truth. And the last enemy to be defeated will be death.


I do get that and totally agree with it. We are the ones who are responsible for any access the devil has to our life and heart. We're the ones who gave him a foothold even if we aren't aware of it or know how we did it. It often takes the Lord to graciously shine His light so we can see by and become aware of what we need to repent of. Repentance is one of the best kept secrets in Christendom....for healing, deliverance and growth. There are those who unfortunately believe we never need to repent of anything since we are saved. Believing that will leave them stuck in spiritual babyhood I fear.


I've seen demons manifesting a few times over the years. A couple of times it was like time was standing still....seeing in the spirit realm. You hear people talk of shape-shifting.....that sounds an awful lot like some of what I've seen, only they wouldn't know it is a demon manifesting if they aren't believers. There are many testimonies from credible Christians of such things and of course the bible talks about it. It's not flaky at all...unless some make it so by not approaching it properly.

Whatever dude. You aint gotta prove anything to me. I do believe that death as been overcame, that is spiritual death.

All things has the Lord Yeshua, conquered. <- I 100% accept.

You wanna say Im not approaching things properly. Well if you don't want to accept what I've been saying, why don't ya stop?

I don't accept the Devil is still roaming and doing things today. Sorry. Just dont. Never will anymore.

Otherwise Jesus is a failure to me, and the apostles shouldn't be listened to at all. Jesus didn't destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus said the evil of men is in the heart, that is not caused by the Devil; but Darkness within the Soul.


I realize you are 30 years older than me but that doesn't make a difference, I hope the best for you and your family but when it comes to these types of things you are gonna have a hard time if you want to change me, cause I came from a belief that the devil and demons was around and what not when I didn't accept the victory of Yeshua.

 

[Lizbeth]

LOL it does not seem so.

I agree entirely with this. Reaching chapter 8 is the promised land - in this life, freed from the presence of sin.


My opinion is that salvation means being delivered from the state wherein we are not as God intended ie as sinners and is the end result of the salvation process which is union with Christ.



I agree in the main.


Amen to this.


Again agreed. The breathing on of the Spirit does not necessarily mean that He is able to dwell within.


I don't believe that it puts one in the same position as unbelievers. But the fact is that they are not saved from sin and Christ came to save us from sin. The judgement takes into consideration the state of their hearts but all of His followers are given the chance of responding to the pricks of their conscious. I believe that perhaps they see their error on their deathbeds which must cause much grief for the opportunity they missed to honour Christ, though they escape by the skin of their teeth.

Thank you and I appreciate it too.

I'm glad we are in agreement on most of this. :)

We are saved from wrath as well, the bible says. He will not count our unwitting and inadvertent sins against us, as long our heart attitude is right and we're running the race in sincerity the best we know how....judgment begins with the house of God...to some extent we're being judged now with chastisements and tribulations so that we will not be judged with the world (and who is without chastisement is an illegitimate son). But if we keep on willfully sinning that is another matter. Even those who are unwittingly building with wood hay and stubble will be saved, yet so as by fire (though I'm not sure what that means, maybe an overwhelming remorse, sorrow and shame at the judgment..?).

 

[Lizbeth]

Whatever dude. You aint gotta prove anything to me. I do believe that death as been overcame, that is spiritual death.

All things has the Lord Yeshua, conquered. <- I 100% accept.

You wanna say Im not approaching things properly. Well if you don't want to accept what I've been saying, why don't ya stop?

I don't accept the Devil is still roaming and doing things today. Sorry. Just dont. Never will anymore.

Otherwise Jesus is a failure to me, and the apostles shouldn't be listened to at all. Jesus didn't destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus said the evil of men is in the heart, that is not caused by the Devil; but Darkness within the Soul.


I realize you are 30 years older than me but that doesn't make a difference, I hope the best for you and your family but when it comes to these types of things you are gonna have a hard time if you want to change me, cause I came from a belief that the devil and demons was around and what not when I didn't accept the victory of Yeshua.

I'm a dudette, lol. And an old one at that. Death is overcome when there has been a resurrection....so yes a spiritual resurrection, but also the resurrection and redemption of our bodies after physical death.

You misunderstood me....I was talking about some who don't approach deliverance properly. I've seen some playing games with demons which I consider to be dangerous and flaky to use your terminology.

Yes, Jesus did come to destroy the works of the devil, but He is continuing the work today. As we are His body on earth continuing His work through Him, each member according to their gifts. The church, His body on earth is supposed to be bringing the salvation, healing, deliverance and blessing that He wrought, to those who still need it

We are just discussing back and forth. I'm speaking my understanding just the same as you are speaking yours. But I am not accusing you of trying to change me. If you don't want to talk about any topic you are certainly free not to. Anyway, going to leave it there brother. Shalom and blessings to you and your family.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you. I appreciate that. Im glad you understand that I believe the devil is not around. Im glad to understand that you do.

In the end what does it matter huh? To love is the most important right? Im not accusing you of changing me. I try to speak generally when I write and not always direct.

I dont entertain demons being around in my mind, or the devil so... or in the world itself (Darkness yes.) Shalom?

 

[MatthewG]

Demonology, and exorcism all that stuff is just a load of crap in my mind @Lizbeth.

I use to go to graveyard and say sorry yall are all stuck down here. I use to go and search for spooky ghosts, and even play with ouijua. Hell one time I prayed to Satan "the supposed horned demon king."

Oh dont use those thing, blah blah blah. So... we may have grown up in different times, and you may have your own set mind on certain things, but while they may be true for you they may not be true for others...

How do you handle that? You can't call them non-christian.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

what do you think about Jesus saying he was coming quickly 7 times

From God's view point.... it's only been a little over 2 days since Jesus was here

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Whatever dude.

Isn't the due a lady?

Shouldn't that be dudette?

I don't accept the Devil is still roaming and doing things today.

Then you must be befuddled as to WHY there is so much darkness and evil going on in the world.

You don't reckon the Lord is running around the world spreading darkness and evil do ya?

Is Hebrews 2:8 a lie?