Understanding The Great Trib

[Truth7t7]

8 days later in the same chapter, Jesus told doubting Thomas to but his hands in his wounds, meaning Jesus went to heaven and returned. He brought back the gift of the holy spirit with him, the Groom has to give the Bride a Gift. He sealed the betrothal with Wine and Bread at the last supper. The Word/Bible is the Grooms Agreement with the Bride.

So, I already won this debate, you are pretty much just stammering brother.

Purely your speculation and assumption that's not found in scripture

 

[Davy]

You end with Israel becoming a nation. How did you miss the first 3 signs? If the fig tree is the first sign, which is the second sign?

You really don't understand what Jesus was talking about in His Olivet discourse, do you?

The parable of the fig tree Jesus told His servants to learn, is NOT one of the main Signs He gave there. When He said that generation that 'sees' "all these things", He was pointing to the specific Signs He gave prior to the parable of the fig tree.

The parable of the fig tree was to show what generation would be the last one, and that would see ALL... those Signs prior to the Matthew 24:32.

If you'll READ verse 31 just prior to that, it is about Jesus' coming to gather His Church, which is the very last... Sign He gave in His Olivet discourse, which is also the very last Sign in Revelation 6 about the Seals.

 

[Davy]

It is also a simple fact that the shorter the Tribulation is, the less pain and suffering. Why not argue that point? Who are the elect? Why would those living in the last 5000 years worry about suffering in the tribulation? Are they brought back since they are also the church and your point is the whole church must indeed suffer in the tribulation.

When you say the rest of the church I assume you mean the rest of the church, leaving no one out period. So is the point the entire church from Abel to now, needs to be present and survive a short tribulation, just to prove the Second Coming is after this short trib?

Or simply that it is short allowing more of the elect to enter Paradise at the Second Coming, instead of actually living in the trib as an elect of God? The 144k are going to be in the trib. They survive. Do you really need the whole church present?

Why are you against those Scriptures in God's Word? Who has bewitched you to be against what Lord Jesus showed His servants there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13? Why must you attempt to slice and dice Lord Jesus' words there? You are showing distrust as to the written Word of God with wanting to debate over the simplicity that is written there. What Jesus gave there is like direct statements. But you show you would even argue over simple statements like an apple is red. Because of that, you reveal that what you say is not to be trusted.

 

[Truth7t7]

You really don't understand what Jesus was talking about in His Olivet discourse, do you?

The parable of the fig tree Jesus told His servants to learn, is NOT one of the main Signs He gave there. When He said that generation that 'sees' "all these things", He was pointing to the specific Signs He gave prior to the parable of the fig tree.

The parable of the fig tree was to show what generation would be the last one, and that would see ALL... those Signs prior to the Matthew 24:32.

If you'll READ verse 31 just prior to that, it is about Jesus' coming to gather His Church, which is the very last... Sign He gave in His Olivet discourse, which is also the very last Sign in Revelation 6 about the Seals.

When Jesus Christ returns (Then Cometh The End)

It appears you teach if a pre-wrath rapture found no place in scripture, the church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the tribulation and second coming, as Luke 21:25-28 clearly describes below

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Davy]

When Jesus Christ returns (Then Cometh The End)

It appears you teach if a pre-wrath rapture found no place in scripture, the church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the tribulation and second coming, as Luke 21:25-28 clearly describes below

There are many things that appear to you as questionable about God's Word, showing how you doubt His Word, and you try to use that problem of yours to point at others???

"Pre-wrath" is an idea from men, not God's Word.

Jesus will return AFTER the tribulation He spoke of while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples when they asked what would be the sign of His coming and the end of this world. So if you heeded that exact when per Revelation 6, and 9 thru 11, and Revelation 16 and 19, then you would understand that Matthew 24:30-31 Scripture when He said He returns.

 

[Truth7t7]

There are many things that appear to you as questionable about God's Word, showing how you doubt His Word, and you try to use that problem of yours to point at others???

"Pre-wrath" is an idea from men, not God's Word.

Jesus will return AFTER the tribulation He spoke of while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples when they asked what would be the sign of His coming and the end of this world. So if you heeded that exact when per Revelation 6, and 9 thru 11, and Revelation 16 and 19, then you would understand that Matthew 24:30-31 Scripture when He said He returns.

I fully agree that Jesus Christ returns immediately after the tribulation, and this return is in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire (The End)

Possibly it's very apparent to you regarding my beliefs above, we have been posting in the same eschatology forum for months, not to mention the several threads posted by myself

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Davy]

I fully agree that Jesus Christ returns immediately after the tribulation, and this return is in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire (The End)

Possibly it's very apparent to you regarding my beliefs above, we have been posting in the same eschatology forum for months, not to mention the several threads posted by myself

Jesus Is The Lord

No, we have not been posting the same things. You and I both know that you are an Amillennialist, not believing that the "thousand years" of Christ's future reign over the nations of Revelation 20 is literal. I do believe it is a literal 1,000 years period prior to the new heavens and a new earth, as it is written. Furthermore, your interpretation that God is going to literally destroy the whole earth is not Biblical either, because in 2 Peter 3, Peter described the end of previous cleansings of this earth's surface, and that is what the future event of God's consuming fire is going to do too, simply cleanse the 'surface' of this earth of man's works. God is not going to literally turn this earth into an asteroid belt. And the proof of that is with the many Bible prophecies that describe the still existing earth after the day of Christ's future return.

Thus there are many things written in God's Word you and I do not agree on.

 

[Truth7t7]

Furthermore, your interpretation that God is going to literally destroy the whole earth is not Biblical either, because in 2 Peter 3, Peter described the end of previous cleansings of this earth's surface, and that is what the future event of God's consuming fire is going to do too, simply cleanse the 'surface' of this earth of man's works. God is not going to literally turn this earth into an asteroid belt. And the proof of that is with the many Bible prophecies that describe the still existing earth after the day of Christ's future return.

Thus there are many things written in God's Word you and I do not agree on.

The fire is going to do more than cleanse the earth, it will be "Dissolved" to it's very "Elements" just as 2 Peter 3:10-13 teaches below "Shall Be Dissolved"

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Davy]

The fire is going to do more than cleanse the earth, it will be "Dissolved" to it's very "Elements" just as 2 Peter 3:10-13 teaches below "Shall Be Dissolved"
....

Nope. Surface cleansing only. Some brethren bypass the Book of Hebrews, because they wrongly think it's only for Jews...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV


Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

Per your false Amillennialist theory from men, there couldn't be any... kingdoms left on earth after that 7th Trumpet on the "day of the Lord". Yet, there they still are, but at that point in time they become the kingdoms of The Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Even per Zechariah 14 which reveals the leftovers that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day, they are made to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles, showing the EARTH IS STILL THERE. And there are so many direct references in the Old Testament prophets about the earth still existing after Christ's future coming, even that Biblical proof shows exactly how men's theory of Amillennialism is just totally WHACK! Even in Ezekiel 47 about Christ's future Millennial temple with the waters of the river of life and tree of life manifesting, IT IS UPON THIS EARTH, and that Chapter even reveals exactly WHERE in the holy land it will be located! It names the location ON EARTH, with En-gedi.

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

Per your false Amillennialist theory from men, there couldn't be any... kingdoms left on earth after that 7th Trumpet on the "day of the Lord". Yet, there they still are, but at that point in time they become the kingdoms of The Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Even per Zechariah 14 which reveals the leftovers that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day, they are made to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles, showing the EARTH IS STILL THERE. And there are so many direct references in the Old Testament prophets about the earth still existing after Christ's future coming, even that Biblical proof shows exactly how men's theory of Amillennialism is just totally WHACK! Even in Ezekiel 47 about Christ's future Millennial temple with the waters of the river of life and tree of life manifesting, IT IS UPON THIS EARTH, and that Chapter even reveals exactly WHERE in the holy land it will be located! It names the location ON EARTH, with En-gedi.

That's correct, at the 7th trump the final judgement takes place and eternity begins

You quoted Revelation 11:15, and excluded the final judgement in verse 18 seen below (The End)

Snip it and clip it contextual "exclusion", is a poor practice in any eschatological study

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Even per Zechariah 14 which reveals the leftovers that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day, they are made to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles, showing the EARTH IS STILL THERE. And there are so many direct references in the Old Testament prophets about the earth still existing after Christ's future coming, even that Biblical proof shows exactly how men's theory of Amillennialism is just totally WHACK! Even in Ezekiel 47 about Christ's future Millennial temple with the waters of the river of life and tree of life manifesting, IT IS UPON THIS EARTH, and that Chapter even reveals exactly WHERE in the holy land it will be located! It names the location ON EARTH, with En-gedi.

Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Curtis]

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You missed the part where Jesus said to pray we are worthy to escape the great tribulation that Jesus just described:

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Truth7t7]

You missed the part where Jesus said to pray we are worthy to escape the great tribulation that Jesus just described:

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You missed the part where the Church on earth during the (Hour Of Temptation) is instructed to enter their dwelling, until the Lords indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt, Gods Divine protection of the Church on earth during the tribulation!

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Revelation 3:10KJV
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Davy]

That's correct, at the 7th trump the final judgement takes place and eternity begins

Of course as usual, what you say is not written in God's Holy Writ.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course as usual, what you say is not written in God's Holy Writ.

Of course it's found d in scripture as seen below, at the 7th Angel/Trump the final judgement of all takes place (The End)

Will you deny the final judgement is seen in Revelation 11:18 below?

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Davy]

Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You really haven't been able to destroy my coverage in God's Word, have you? That has to be the only reason you 'act' at times as if you agree... with me. Because you often go against even your 'own' words, which reveals to me that you are play-acting to appear you side with me, then when you think I'm not looking, you push just the opposite doctrine.
__________________________________________________________


Now that's truly ignorant to think the Isaiah 4:3-4 Scripture is the same event as Zechariah 14:16, no wonder I had you on Ignore:

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

It is NOT the righteous that will come up against Jerusalem to destroy on the last day of this world, which is about the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:16), and the valley of Hamon-gog. You need to study the Ezekiel 38 and note that nation alignment that represent the great army to come upon Israel out of the northern quarters on the last day of this world.

 

[Davy]

You missed the part where Jesus said to pray we are worthy to escape the great tribulation that Jesus just described:

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I thought I responded to that. Maybe it was to someone else. Anyway...

Firstly, Lord Jesus in Luke 21 is warning His elect about those 'days of vengeance' on the "day of the Lord". That is what those events are about on the day of His return; it's when His cup of 'wrath' is poured out.

Why then, would Jesus say for us to pray we escape while telling us the Signs we would see that marks the end? Do you understand that kind of idea does not make sense if we're not here to see those Signs He said we would see?

Why would Lord Jesus tell His elect in Jerusalem to get out of Judea and flee to the mountains when they see those armies surrounding Jerusalem? I mean, just what event does that gathering of armies around Jerusalem signal is getting ready to happen there?

Again, it is because He is warning about the final day of this world with the battle of Armageddon, on the final 7th Vial which is when His final and strongest WRATH is poured put upon the wicked on earth. That happens on the day of His coming. THAT... is what He is telling us to pray that we escape, i.e., that final cup of WRATH upon the wicked!

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 said those in Christ are not appointed to that 'wrath', which is about God's Wrath on the last day, not about the tribulation. Christ's faithful on that day will be protected through that WRATH OF GOD, just like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the Daniel 3 were protected in the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary. They came out of it and their clothes did not even smell of smoke! That idea is a link to God's consuming fire that will burn man's works off this earth on that last day when Jesus comes. For the wicked, they will feel God's Wrath, for Christ's faithful, we won't be touched by it at all.