Understanding The Great Trib

[Davy]

Matt 24: 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

No need to keep repeating that, I know what He said there.

Actually you just proved my point for me. The reason he shortened the time and put an end to it, is because if he did not there would be no one left alive to ENTER THE KINGDOM when he came to his kingdom.

So all the dead saints mean nothing to you?

You also just proved post trib is false. Because if that were true. No one would be left alive to enter the kingdom period with Christ.

Thank you.

Well, the following is going to hurt you real bad, I know...

Luke 21:17-20
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
KJV

I never said there won't be some of us killed during the coming tribulation.

But thinking it means the majority of the world is going to be killed is ludicrous, because the majority are going to be deceived with bowing to the coming false Messiah. Why would he kill his own then? You're just not thinking.

Furthermore, you failed to respond to the Revelation 9 Scripture that the locusts won't be allowed to kill those not sealed with God's seal, and in that time men will seek death but it will flee from them.

 

[Taken]

Christ's FAITHFUL that are 'LEFT BEHIND' (according to the false theory you keep) will be still GRINDING AT THE MILL, working FOR JESUS like He showed!

Davy says: “Christ's FAITHFUL that are 'LEFT BEHIND' (according to the false theory you keep)”

LOL...I NEVER SAID...Christ’s faithful are “left behind”...
YOU did......and then you call it “MY” false theory?
If you think that is FALSE....IT IS “YOUR false theory”
YOU OWN IT!

Davy says: “Christ’s Faithful that are ‘LEFT BEHIND’ ... will be still GRINDING AT THE MILL, working FOR JESUS like He showed!

LOL... “Grinding at the Mill are ya?” FUNNY!

So...while you are “supposedly Working for Jesus, doing some Mill Grinding”...
Are YOU AWARE, YOUR BODY is still FLESH?
Are YOU AWARE, The Lamb of God IS IN HEAVEN OPENING THE SEALS, OF HIS WRATH UPON ALL THE INHABITANTS, UPON THE EARTH....WHICH WILL INCLUDE YOU IN YOUR FLESH BODY!

SO, your picture is: WHILE the Lamb of God IN Heaven, IS SENDING His WRATH of Punishment, UPON the INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH......FOR REJECTING the BAPTISM OF THE LAMB OF GOD....
You ... are going to be PREACHING to the JEWS? who rejected Baptism of the Lamb of God....and PREACHING to the TRIBES of ISRAEL? Who rejected Baptism of the Lamb of God...and PREACHING to men Gentiles? Who missed the last 2,000 years of Gentiles preaching the Baptism of the Lamb of God?

WOW....guess, Gods TWO Witnesses, God foretold He would SEND to the Jews in Jerusalem....are not Necessary.
WOW....guess, God GODS SEALED 144,000 TRIBESMEN, God foretold He would SEND to the 12 TRIBES on Mt Zion .... are not Necessary.

YOU...a Gentile, IN YOU FLESH BODY...ARE GOING TO BE ON EARTH...
“Miraculously” rolleyes , dodging the Lambs Wrath....AND ARE GOING TO BE DOING, what you HAD NO PART IN Accomplishing, during your entire life-time! (YOU have during your life time)......CONVERTED exactly HOW MANY JEWS? HOW MANY TRIBAL Men OF ISRAEL? HOW MANY DEVIL WORSHIPERS?
1, 2, 0? WHAT AN ASSET you will be...during the days of the Lambs Punishment of men who rejected Him!

AWESOME for you!
I am a Gentile. Gentiles were NEVER appointed to Teach Jews, or Tribesmen of Israel.
I am not subject to the Wrath of the Lamb, LIKE YOU.

I might even ask my Lord Jesus if He will put you under my "rod of iron" He gives me when He comes, so you can learn not to profane His Holy Writ.

Ask AWAY. LOL, “you do not have a rod of iron”. And the difference is; You will be ON Earth, SEEING Him coming...and I will be coming WITH Him! Gods TRUTH PreVAILS....your truth fails.

 

[Timtofly]

That is a Preterist idea. It does not flow with God's written Word.

Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are tied to the Seals of Revelation 6. So what timing are the Seals for?

If you say the Seals of Revelation have been "off and on for 1991 years", then you are leaving... God's written Word, and instead defaulting to a doctrine of men.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of simply believing a tradition of men that 'sounds' good, without really checking it out in God's written Word.

No the tribulation has been off and on, not the Seals. Matthew 24:4-13

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

This is coming out of "great tribulation", the whole church age of the last 1991 years.

The Seals are supposed to be the church preparing for the end. Who knows if the Church in general on earth will even recognize the Seals? The only sign will be the actual Second Coming itself. It is symbolized as a thief in the night. Iniquity will abound and the love of many will grow cold.

 

[Timtofly]

That means His elect will go through it, otherwise if the Pre-trib Rapture were true, it would mean His elect would already be in Heaven at this point, watching the destruction of flesh, which of course that is NOT what that Scripture is showing. So this is actually common sense exposing the falseness of a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

The point is not that it will "not last longer". The point is it will not happen sooner, thus the longer it does not happen, the shorter will be the time of unprecedented tribulation. So for the elects sake it is not the going through it. The point is more will be saved before it starts.

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth for the GT. The rapture means the church will not be on earth for the GT. It will be shorter and shorter the longer God waits to send Christ the Prince to earth.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The point is not that it will "not last longer". The point is it will not happen sooner, thus the longer it does not happen, the shorter will be the time of unprecedented tribulation. So for the elects sake it is not the going through it. The point is more will be saved before it starts.

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth for the GT. The rapture means the church will not be on earth for the GT. It will be shorter and shorter the longer God waits to send Christ the Prince to earth.

Just have 2 questions if that is ok.

1. Why do we need to leave earth? If we are changed instantly (those alive) and the rest were already dead, what could hurt us on earth if we are immortal? Can immortal or the dead be hurt?

2. What scripture says we leave earth at the resurrection?

 

[Timtofly]

Just have 2 questions if that is ok.

1. Why do we need to leave earth? If we are changed instantly (those alive) and the rest were already dead, what could hurt us on earth if we are immortal? Can immortal or the dead be hurt?

2. What scripture says we leave earth at the resurrection?

All the verses about the resurrection, redemption, and even Revelation 21 point out we leave this earth. How does the church come back as the New Jerusalem if we never leave the earth? Is the church waiting in a jungle "hide out" on earth, like a lost or hidden civilization?

Some could point out it is still on earth, but an alternate "dimension" that does exist in the same space, but we cannot see them, even if they see us. But how is that more biblical than the point the church literally leaves the earth for a city from above?

Now we have in another thread, some who think the moon is Paradise. Does that mean the sun is the Lake of Fire? How about this Scripture:

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:3-4

Jesus told them they already know where. Jesus told them they already knew how the place was prepared. That was not some secret Jesus told them that no one else could ever know. God had already revealed that to Moses. That knowledge was already Scripture. It is Genesis 1-4. John even explained that in John 1. Then John told us again in Revelation 13:

"the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

From God's perspective after the Cross, the Resurrection and the Life created the heavens and the earth as the Word. The Garden was prepared for Adam's family. We are Adam's family. The redeemed are the part of Adam's family that did not listen to Satan, but by Faith, trusted in God. The church as the redeemed since the Cross has not been dead, nor even tasting death. They have been in Paradise for the last 1991 years.

As for the return part, Paul already cleared that up. Even though the church has not even been teaching Paul correctly, he did clear it up. Those who keep the church dead in the ground, and forever on the earth are the one's who do not understand Paul.

 

[No Pre-TB]

All the verses about the resurrection, redemption, and even Revelation 21 point out we leave this earth. How does the church come back as the New Jerusalem if we never leave the earth? Is the church waiting in a jungle "hide out" on earth, like a lost or hidden civilization?

Some could point out it is still on earth, but an alternate "dimension" that does exist in the same space, but we cannot see them, even if they see us. But how is that more biblical than the point the church literally leaves the earth for a city from above?

Now we have in another thread, some who think the moon is Paradise. Does that mean the sun is the Lake of Fire? How about this Scripture:

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:3-4

Jesus told them they already know where. Jesus told them they already knew how the place was prepared. That was not some secret Jesus told them that no one else could ever know. God had already revealed that to Moses. That knowledge was already Scripture. It is Genesis 1-4. John even explained that in John 1. Then John told us again in Revelation 13:

"the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

From God's perspective after the Cross, the Resurrection and the Life created the heavens and the earth as the Word. The Garden was prepared for Adam's family. We are Adam's family. The redeemed are the part of Adam's family that did not listen to Satan, but by Faith, trusted in God. The church as the redeemed since the Cross has not been dead, nor even tasting death. They have been in Paradise for the last 1991 years.

As for the return part, Paul already cleared that up. Even though the church has not even been teaching Paul correctly, he did clear it up. Those who keep the church dead in the ground, and forever on the earth are the one's who do not understand Paul.

Ok, but if Christ said I go to prepare a place for you, he’s not preparing heaven, he’s preparing the Kingdom on earth. That specific verse doesn’t say we go to heaven, nor does it elude to that we need to leave the earth at a resurrection. Noah, Lot and Moses all remained on the earth. Even the thief on the cross was told he would be in paradise, not heaven (2 separate words with their own meaning).

What verse actually says we leave earth? Where in Rev 21?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I can't agree with all that. Spiritual deception is what Lord Jesus showed is the main point for the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:4).

You really need to study a lot more. The verse you reference here is ONLY about 70 AD (Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD), Jesus made a statement about the Temple being destroyed, thus the first question, "When will these things be?" is answered in verses 4-6. Thus THE END (7th week is not yet or is later on or by and by).

It's going to be about Satan on earth playing God, literally (Revelation 13:4-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). How would he look if he went around killing everyone? No one would believe he could be God by doing that. Instead, he is going to be in Jerusalem working all power and lying wonders, great signs and wonders and miracles.

THINK just a little, he has power over the saints and the world he rules, which I think is only Europe and the Mediterranean Sea Region. I do think these other rogue rulers think jus as he does however. like we see with the current COVID 19 situation, because they are all ruled by Satan/Demons, with uncanny one mind sets.

Thus who is he trying to "TRICK" in Matt. 24:24? Only the Jews who have repented BEFORE the DOTL just like Zechariah 13:8-9 and Malachi 4:5-6 say and who are hiding in the Petra/Bozrah area, REMEMBER, he has power over the saints refers to the Jews living in Israel because Israel ae called saints throughout the old testament in a general way, like a cola stands for all fizz drinks in general. Thus in Rev. 17 the Harlot kills the Martyrs of Jesus AND the Saints (Jews of old, separated unto God). So, the A.C. and False Prophet tries to make it APPEAR Jesus has come via many miracles, they don't need to trick ANYONE not in the Petra/Bozrah area in order to kill them, get that? So, when Jesus says this, it ought to click what he is saying, MY [Jewish] ELECT CAN NOT BE DECIEVED, because I have told them before[hand] what is going to happen !! And where I will return from, in the EASTRN SKIES !! WATCH BELOW. Speaking to Jews only here the only ones He protects.

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets(THE A.C. and F.P.), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Meaning that it is N0T POSSIBLE)

25 Behold, I have told you before[HAND].(This s why it is NOT POSSIBLE)

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.(Jesus has FOREWARNED THEM he's not going to be living anywhere in Israel. preforming any miracles, when the next see him)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(BOOM....He will be coming in the Eastern Skies for all to see, this is why these Elect Jews CAN NOT be deceived. PERIOD)

So, he's not trying to trick the Jews who do not repent and who do not flee unto Petra/Bozrah area, he will simply kill them, that is why it states 2/3 will be cut-off and die. es simply tryin g to unsuccessfully trick those Jews who he can't get at into coming back to Jerusalem where he can kill them, he's not really trying to be a fake Messiah, he's really saying I am the real god, worship me. But he needs to trick those 3-5 million Jews who have repented and fled unto the Mountains.

People get everything twisted all around.

Furthermore, Revelation 13 asks who can make war with the beast? And Jesus showed in Matthew 24:6 that all wars will have stopped at the 'end' (for the end is not yet). So that shows the tribulation isn't going to be about war either.

Matt. 24:6 is about 70 AD, verses 7-14 about the Church Age, geeeze louise !!

Matt 24: 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13: 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Actually you just proved my point for me. The reason he shortened the time and put an end to it, is because if he did not there would be no one left alive to ENTER THE KINGDOM when he came to his kingdom.

You also just proved post trib is false. Because if that were true. No one would be left alive to enter the kingdom period with Christ.

Post Trib is false, but he SHORTENED the days to 1260 days just like the Prophecy says so that Satan wouldn't destroy ALL FLESH, in other words its still 1260 days, God did not shorten that period of time. He just shortened the coming Anti-Christs natural life span (which would have been longer)as the Beast ruler to only 1260 days. He does this by killing him at the 7th Vial.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, but if Christ said I go to prepare a place for you, he’s not preparing heaven, he’s preparing the Kingdom on earth. That specific verse doesn’t say we go to heaven, nor does it elude to that we need to leave the earth at a resurrection. Noah, Lot and Moses all remained on the earth. Even the thief on the cross was told he would be in paradise, not heaven (2 separate words with their own meaning).

What verse actually says we leave earth? Where in Rev 21?

Revelation 21 is the return to earth. Paradise is not on earth. The thief other than Moses and Elijah was the first human to enter Paradise that day.

Why would I speculate what and exactly where Paradise is above the earth? Paul claims a "third heaven". What does that even mean? Paul was not even sure if there was a body or not a body. I have never even experienced that much. If Paul could not even remember the specific details and experienced something, how could any one prove their own experiences, as they all seem to be unique to them?

Paul explains it is not on earth in 2 Corinthians 5. It is a physical place, because it is better than what we physically have on earth. The redeemed have been gathering there since the thief started that day from the Cross.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Where does Paul state, they have been waiting for 1991 years to enter Paradise? Many in Abraham's bosom had been waiting over 3000 years to enter Paradise. The whole OT entered Paradise on resurrection Sunday. Their wait was over. The NT church is not waiting in Abraham's bosom like those OT redeemed had to. Jesus said the redeemed would never taste death again.

 

[Davy]

No the tribulation has been off and on, not the Seals.

Impossible. You know why? Because after Jesus gave those main Signs of the very end of this world, He then commanded those in Christ to learn the parable of the fig tree. And in that parable He said the generation that sees ALL those things (i.e., all those Signs), will not pass until He returns. So that literally destroys... your false idea that the "great tribulation" He foretold is for many generations. No... it is for the LAST generation that will SEE His future return. Nuff said.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Revelation 21 is the return to earth. Paradise is not on earth. The thief other than Moses and Elijah was the first human to enter Paradise that day.

Paradise is on the earth, we knw that because Jesus died and went INTO THE EARTH for three days, and he told the thief, TODAY you will be with me in paradise (a holding place for souls).

Matt. 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Then we see in John chapter 20 when Marry saw Jesus he said "TOUCH ME NOT" for I have not yet ASCCENDED unto the Father.

So, Jesus told the thief that he would be with him that very day in Paradise, Jesus went into the earth for three days, Jesus preached t to souls in prison during thus time and EXPLICITLY tells Mary he has nit yet ascended to Heaven to offer the Sacrifice unto the Father.


Heaven is the Skies, our Atmosphere is a Heavenly expanse. Then our Universe is the 2nd Heaven, it is where Satan operates at. The 3rd Heaven is Gods Realm. If God was from our universe He would have had to of been created, but God is not from our universe, thus He is Eternal.


So, Paradise can only be ON THIS EARTH just as I assume the bottomless pit is.

 

[Davy]

The point is not that it will "not last longer". The point is it will not happen sooner, thus the longer it does not happen, the shorter will be the time of unprecedented tribulation. So for the elects sake it is not the going through it. The point is more will be saved before it starts.

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth for the GT. The rapture means the church will not be on earth for the GT. It will be shorter and shorter the longer God waits to send Christ the Prince to earth.

You're not making sense, probably because the theory you're on isn't actually written in God's Word.

Jesus showed in Matthew 24 that the great tribulation will be shortened for His elect's sake. That means they go... through... it.

And if His very elect go through it, that means the rest of the Church does too.

And He showed there also that His return AFTER the that tribulation is when He will gather His saints, i.e., His Church.

Nuff said. God's Word is written in simplicity for those who actually heed it.

 

[Davy]

You really need to study a lot more. The verse you reference here is ONLY about 70 AD (Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD), Jesus made a statement about the Temple being destroyed, thus the first question, "When will these things be?" is answered in verses 4-6. Thus THE END (7th week is not yet or is later on or by and by).

You mean study the junk from men's false Preterist doctrines like you espouse?? No thanks, I will stay... with God's Word as written. Thus your recommendation is actually very sick.

 

[Timtofly]

Impossible. You know why? Because after Jesus gave those main Signs of the very end of this world, He then commanded those in Christ to learn the parable of the fig tree. And in that parable He said the generation that sees ALL those things (i.e., all those Signs), will not pass until He returns. So that literally destroys... your false idea that the "great tribulation" He foretold is for many generations. No... it is for the LAST generation that will SEE His future return. Nuff said.

You end with Israel becoming a nation. How did you miss the first 3 signs? If the fig tree is the first sign, which is the second sign?

 

[amigo de christo]

There shall be wars and rumors of wars . Inquity Abounding .
These signs are showing us as to what days we are in .
And here is what the three super powers are doing . Sounds to me like as the jews did and had become
so too has america and the west . Worse than even the surrounding pagan nations . This world is in dire trouble .

 

[Timtofly]

Paradise is on the earth, we knw that because Jesus died and went INTO THE EARTH for three days, and he told the thief, TODAY you will be with me in paradise (a holding place for souls).

Matt. 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Then we see in John chapter 20 when Marry saw Jesus he said "TOUCH ME NOT" for I have not yet ASCCENDED unto the Father.

So, Jesus told the thief that he would be with him that very day in Paradise, Jesus went into the earth for three days, Jesus preached t to souls in prison during thus time and EXPLICITLY tells Mary he has nit yet ascended to Heaven to offer the Sacrifice unto the Father.


Heaven is the Skies, our Atmosphere is a Heavenly expanse. Then our Universe is the 2nd Heaven, it is where Satan operates at. The 3rd Heaven is Gods Realm. If God was from our universe He would have had to of been created, but God is not from our universe, thus He is Eternal.


So, Paradise can only be ON THIS EARTH just as I assume the bottomless pit is.

So, your Paradise is in sheol the devil's domain? What did Paul say: 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) . such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) . How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Pretty sure it was the Lord God speaking to the thief on the Cross. Jesus' body was placed in a tomb. Would not the Holy Spirit have brought those in Abraham's bosom out? How would you describe Jesus' soul, if Jesus was 100% man as well as 100% God? Was it the Word that set them free? Why could Mary not touch Jesus? Was that form a ghost? Or was He still being the sacrificial Lamb and needed to complete the task and ascend to God? It would seem the point of being in the tomb a complete 72 hours was that He would actually be pronounced dead. The thief arriving in Paradise, the third heaven with the Lord God, does not need proof of death. In fact, the thief will never need that corruptible body again. He had one that day in Paradise that was permanent incorruptible as well as physical. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

So point to Scripture that places Paradise as being sucked into the the earth. Or just accept Paul's declaration.

 

[Timtofly]

You're not making sense, probably because the theory you're on isn't actually written in God's Word.

Jesus showed in Matthew 24 that the great tribulation will be shortened for His elect's sake. That means they go... through... it.

And if His very elect go through it, that means the rest of the Church does too.

And He showed there also that His return AFTER the that tribulation is when He will gather His saints, i.e., His Church.

Nuff said. God's Word is written in simplicity for those who actually heed it.

It is also a simple fact that the shorter the Tribulation is, the less pain and suffering. Why not argue that point? Who are the elect? Why would those living in the last 5000 years worry about suffering in the tribulation? Are they brought back since they are also the church and your point is the whole church must indeed suffer in the tribulation.

When you say the rest of the church I assume you mean the rest of the church, leaving no one out period. So is the point the entire church from Abel to now, needs to be present and survive a short tribulation, just to prove the Second Coming is after this short trib?

Or simply that it is short allowing more of the elect to enter Paradise at the Second Coming, instead of actually living in the trib as an elect of God? The 144k are going to be in the trib. They survive. Do you really need the whole church present?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

So, your Paradise is in sheol the devil's domain? What did Paul say: 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) . such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) . How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

What this tells me us you have on blinders to everything you cant deny which I destroy and then you just throw something else against the way to see of it sticks, then I destroy tat also via scriptures. TRY answering all the points where I proved you in error before moving on to other wild ideas.

So, in plain English, just to make sure you understand this, Paul is saying, I went to Heaven either in the Spirit or in the flesh I don't know. Well, we know, Paul later on says no flesh and blood can enter heaven in 1 Cor. 15. so he answer that himself. John was told to COME UP HERE also, so, in the Spirit World it is stated witches and evil people fly around the world, its called projection or something like that. In the Spirit world time and space has no authority. So, basically told you he saw things not of this world, so next time you hear a near death experience, its about the same thing Paul went though.

And that has nothing to do with Paradise where sous are held in a sleep state until the Resurrection.

Pretty sure it was the Lord God speaking to the thief on the Cross. Jesus' body was placed in a tomb. Would not the Holy Spirit have brought those in Abraham's bosom out? How would you describe Jesus' soul, if Jesus was 100% man as well as 100% God? Was it the Word that set them free? Why could Mary not touch Jesus? Was that form a ghost?

Again, just questions, not admission that all my points destroyed you thesis.

Mary could not touch Jesus because her sin flesh would have defiled the Sacrifice, then 8 days later in the same chapter, Jesus told doubting Thomas to but his hands in his wounds, meaning Jesus went to heaven and returned. He brought back the gift of the holy spirit with him, the Groom has to give the Bride a Gift. He sealed the betrothal with Wine and Bread at the last supper. The Word/Bible is the Grooms Agreement with the Bride.

So, I already won this debate, you are pretty much just stammering brother.

 

[Timtofly]

What this tells me us you have on blinders to everything you cant deny which I destroy and then you just throw something else against the way to see of it sticks, then I destroy tat also via scriptures. TRY answering all the points where I proved you in error before moving on to other wild ideas.

So, in plain English, just to make sure you understand this, Paul is saying, I went to Heaven either in the Spirit or in the flesh I don't know. Well, we know, Paul later on says no flesh and blood can enter heaven in 1 Cor. 15. so he answer that himself. John was told to COME UP HERE also, so, in the Spirit World it is stated witches and evil people fly around the world, its called projection or something like that. In the Spirit world time and space has no authority. So, basically told you he saw things not of this world, so next time you hear a near death experience, its about the same thing Paul went though.

And that has nothing to do with Paradise where sous are held in a sleep state until the Resurrection.

No, all it tells me is that you think Paradise is Abraham's bosom in sheol. You are free to believe any thing you want.

This was not a debate, but I guess you claimed you won.

How many times is the word Paradise in Scripture any ways? Or Abraham's bosom for that matter? Jesus spoke both terms. Perhaps Jesus did not have time to say Abraham's bosom on the Cross? Why not just claim Lazarus went to be with Abraham in Paradise?

How we choose our Words say a lot about us, no?

After the Cross souls no longer had to experience that sleep state. The Atonement of the Cross opened the doors of Paradise wide open:

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Of course Adam's flesh and blood could not enter Paradise. They had to get rid of the sin first. Also this old dead corruptible body.

 

[Truth7t7]

And that has nothing to do with Paradise where sous are held in a sleep state until the Resurrection.



Again, just questions, not admission that all my points destroyed you thesis.

Mary could not touch Jesus because her sin flesh would have defiled the Sacrifice, then 8 days later in the same chapter, Jesus told doubting Thomas to but his hands in his wounds, meaning Jesus went to heaven and returned. He brought back the gift of the holy spirit with him, the Groom has to give the Bride a Gift. He sealed the betrothal with Wine and Bread at the last supper. The Word/Bible is the Grooms Agreement with the Bride.

So, I already won this debate, you are pretty much just stammering brother.

"Soul Sleep" a doctrine of Jehovah's witnesses and 7th day Adventist

Scripture clearly teaches that the rich man died and went immediately to "Hell" while Lazarus was comforted in Abraham's bosom

Luke 16:22-24KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.