Understanding "THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED" passage.

[Phoneman777]

The PAPACY is part of ROME and the EU. I'm asking for just ONE verse that proves your point!! I refuse your point because you CAN'T quote ONE verse!

I can post dozens of verses that show an Arab, Iranian, and Islamic connection! That's why Rome isn't labelled as the beast. Islamic countries are!

Find me one verse in the OT where it specifically says the Messiah is Jesus Christ.
Oh, you can't? So, how is He to be recognized?
By His deeds which were foretold in prophecy - THE SAME WAY WE RECOGNIZE THE PAPACY AS ANTICHRIST.

Good gravy, what do you think the Greek "Anti-Christos" means? "IN PLACE OF CHRIST", which is exactly what the Papacy boasts itself to be!

Yours is a totally subjective argument and as such deserves no consideration so you've wasted 20 years of your time proving nothing.

 

[Phoneman777]

Historicism precedes both Alcazar and Ribera. Their objective was to eliminate it. They failed.

Historicism rejects both Alcazar's preterism and Ribera's futurism, whose objectives were to sabotage the Reformation. They failed.

Dispensational futurism, whose bed you are in, adores and embraces its godfather Ribera.

It is a traitor to the Reformation, and an abomination of desecration which contorts Christ into antichrist.

Aren't you proud to be a closet papist?

We'll never know how many of these "protestants" are actually Jesuits in disguise. They may think they're getting away with things now, but the truth will eventually come out and they will beg God to forgive their papist loyalites and receive nothing but fiery retribution.

 

[Truth7t7]

So many errors...
A "Woman" in New Testament prophecy represents the church, either a:

YOUR CLAIM IS FALSE

Zechariah 7:7KJV
7 Should ye not hear the words which the Lord hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain?

Isaiah 1:21KJV
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

 

[Truth7t7]

Now, this is just foolish. Everyone knows Rome is known has been known since the days of antiquity as "the seven hilled city" and in John's day when he received the revelation, it was ROME which "reigned over the kings of the Earth....NOT JERUSALEM.

Jerusalem Will Rule Over Earth's Kings, When (The Beast) Takes His Future Seat There For 42 Months

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 16:13-14KJV
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:19KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Truth7t7]

We'll never know how many of these "protestants" are actually Jesuits in disguise. They may think they're getting away with things now, but the truth will eventually come out and they will beg God to forgive their papist loyalites and receive nothing but fiery retribution.

Historicism is the false teaching, in claims (The Beast) of Revelation 13 has been the papacy in succession for 17+ centuries, your not fooling anybody but yourself

(The Beast) of Revelation Chapter 13 is future, and he will be given 42 months to rule "The World" before the second coming (The End)

Revelation 13:5KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Historicism "Falsely Teaching" That The Papacy In Sucession For Centuries Has Fulfilled The Human Figure Seen Below, This Claim Is "False" And Is A Man Made Fabricated Fairy Tale

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[covenantee]

Historicism "Falsely Teaching" That The Papacy In Sucession For Centuries Has Fulfilled The Human Figure Seen Below, This Claim Is "False" And Is A Man Made Fabricated Fairy Tale

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Closet papistry.

 

[covenantee]

Historicism "Falsely Teaches" that the Roman Catholic Pope's have fulfilled "The Beast" of Revelation Chapter 13, the figure seen below is "Future" and he will be given 42 "Future" literal months in power, not 18 centuries in the false claims of the Roman Catholic Pope's in sucession

Revelation 13:5KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 7:25KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-9KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Closet papistry.

 

[covenantee]

Historicism is the false teaching, in claims (The Beast) of Revelation 13 has been the papacy in succession for 17+ centuries, your not fooling anybody but yourself

(The Beast) of Revelation Chapter 13 is future, and he will be given 42 months to rule before the second coming (The End)

Historicism "Falsely Teaching" That The Papacy In Sucession For Centuries Has Fulfilled The Human Figure Seen Below, This Claim Is "False" And Is A Man Made Fabricated Fairy Tale

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Closet papistry.

 

[rwb]

Look, brother, I'm just explaining my position. It should make sense to you, despite the fact you disagree!

Again, I'm saying that I define "spirit bodies" as physical bodies aligned with the Spirit of God. They are re-made physical bodies designed strictly for spiritual living.

So they aren't "bodies made out of spirit." Rather, they're bodies conformed to spirituality associated with Jesus.

We seem to define "spirit-bodies" differently? But nevertheless, it should make sense to you. I'm defining "spirit-bodies" as physical bodies that do not sin and only conform to spiritual living in Christ. You, by contrast, seem to define "spirit-bodies" as bodies consisting of spiritual elements?

Sorry Randy, you say this is your position and it should make sense to me, but it doesn't. You do realize that which gives life to the body is the spirit in man, but it is not the body of man? It is the spirit, or the essence of life the human spirit is that has a spiritual association with the Lord. Our bodies are controlled by the spirit in us. Our spirit gives life to our organs, enables us to think, and move, and breath.
That's why it makes no sense to me for you to keep defining man's resurrected physical outward shell (body) as a spirit-body. It is a body with a spirit.

Consider it this way, imagine an automobile. They have all these moving parts, but without the engine to make the parts work, the parts would be useless. It's the same with man. Our body is our outer shell, with all these parts and organs that can only function through the spirit in them. Without the spirit, our body would be like an automobile without an engine. We would not define an automobile as an engine-body, because the two are not the same, even though one is not complete without the other. The engine in the auto can work without the outer body, but the body without the engine is useless.

It's like that with man's body and spirit. It takes both parts for man to be a living soul. The spirit in man, when indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, has eternal life without the body. But the human body without the spirit is dead. The natural human body is never eternal, that's why when our natural body is resurrected it must be changed from natural body destined to die, to immortal body that can never die. At the physical resurrection our body is raised immortal with an eternal spirit, then neither our body nor our spirit will ever again die.

Where in the Bible do you see human beings called an "eternal spirit?" I've already gone on record as saying I believe human beings do have eternal spirits. I call them "eternally-existing spirits."

But you are identifying "Eternal Life" with human spirits, and I'm just not seeing that? By contrast, I identify "Eternal Life" with our spirits joining resurrected bodies that not only eternally exist, but exist in physical bodies in the presence of the Lord forever and ever.

When a man is born again through the Spirit, Christ says the life we receive when we believe (born from above) is eternal or everlasting. Christ isn't talking about our body, because He knows every human body is under the curse and destined to die. What never dies in man, that Christ can make this promise of everlasting or eternal life? Our spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit never dies. This is where you must be struggling. Because if our spirit through His Spirit in us never dies, where does our spirit continue to have life after our body dies? If you acknowledge that our spirit, through His Spirit in us, goes to heaven after our body dies then you would have to admit that your doctrine errs. Your doctrine of millennialism requires that the first resurrection be physical, with another resurrection 1,000 years plus later. But if there are human spiritual bodies, as living souls in heaven, that means the first resurrection is spiritual and the only physical resurrection will be when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no more.

No, I believe the bodies Adam and Eve were given initially were for the progressive development of mankind until the job of filling the earth is completed. In the resurrection we shall be genderless, like the angels, there being no more need for reproduction. The bodies we now have were always meant to be replaced, perhaps in the same way angels can change their form and look like humans.

But the bodies we now have were rendered mortal after the Fall. And so we not only have to leave these bodies, but we have to have them die before putting on new ones. And only believers will put on new bodies that are viewed as consummating Eternal Life. Those who experience eternal death will rise up in bodies that do not obtain the spiritual life that the Bible calls "spiritual life" from God.

So, the terms "Eternal Life" and "Eternal Death" do not appear synonymous with eternal existence and eternal annihilation. Rather, they have to do with defining "life" as a spiritual essence by which we put on a New Nature associated with Christ and therefore live in the presence of God forever and ever.

Man was given a choice to obey God and live forever or disobey and die. God could promise them life forever before they disobeyed Him because He breathed His Spirit of life into their spirit and made their bodies immortal. It was the breath of the Almighty that gave man life, and while the Spirit of God remined in man he would have lived forever. This is how man was created in the likeness and image of God. But this is what died on the day man disobeyed God. That's when the body of man became mortal and began to age, and that's when the spirit in man became natural, and without eternal life through the Spirit of God they were created with.

On the new earth man will once again have immortal and incorruptible bodies, and through the eternal Spirit of God once more breathed into their spirit we will live forever with the Lord.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 (KJV) The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

You finally admit why you insist our resurrected body will be a spirit-body. Because you believe we will possess the same supernatural power as the angels in heaven. You probably imagine we will be able to vanish and reappear. The problem with your imagination is that there is nothing in Scripture to prove what you think resurrected mankind will be.

 

[Truth7t7]

Look, brother, I'm just explaining my position. It should make sense to you, despite the fact you disagree!

Again, I'm saying that I define "spirit bodies" as physical bodies aligned with the Spirit of God. They are re-made physical bodies designed strictly for spiritual living.

So they aren't "bodies made out of spirit." Rather, they're bodies conformed to spirituality associated with Jesus.

Yes the body the saved believers will receive will be a "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, just as Jesus maintained after the resurrection

A tangible eternal body of flesh and bone, that could enter a room with doors shut, vanish out of human sight, that could eat physical tangible food upon this earth

1 John 3:2KJV
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[rwb]

Yes the body the saved believers will receive will be a "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, just as Jesus maintained after the resurrection

A tangible eternal body of flesh and bone, that could enter a room with doors shut, vanish out of human sight, that could eat physical tangible food upon this earth

1 John 3:2KJV
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Christ is not saying our resurrected body will be a spiritual body. If that were true, we would not be physical, because that which is spirit is not physical. When John writes "we shall be like Him" he does not mean we will be spiritual body. If we read the verse in context, we find that John means we will be like Christ in that we will be pure, "even as he is pure." (1Jo 3)

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ is not saying our resurrected body will be a spiritual body. If that were true, we would not be physical, because that which is spirit is not physical. When John writes "we shall be like Him" he does not mean we will be spiritual body. If we read the verse in context, we find that John means we will be like Christ in that we will be pure, "even as he is pure." (1Jo 3)

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We have this dichotomy between physical body and spirit soul. But we are told from the beginning that the soul is an essential combination between the spiritual ego and the physical body, ie they are to be viewed as one.

So when we hear the term "spirit body," the question is: are we looking at an oxymoron? Is this a contradiction in terms, in that a spirit is at the opposite spectrum with the body?

There are some who think the "body" can be defined as either physical or spiritual. As such, they see the "spirit body" as a physical form consisting exclusively of spiritual elements.

But I don't think that makes much sense. I don't, quite frankly, know what kind of bodies angels have. They are called "spirits," but how can I deny they have actual physical bodies when they appear in the form of men and in the form of mythical-like creatures? I wouldn't personally call angels "pure spirits" in the sense that they exclude physical bodies of some sort.

So I would use "spirit bodies" more in the sense that "spirit" is acting like an adjective, describing the characteristics of a physical body in acting in spiritual correspondence with the Spirit of God. But I welcome any feedback on this?

I don't believe it does any good at all to say that the human spirit is the only source of the human identity, or soul, to the exclusion of the physical body and that it is only the "spirit" part of man that obtains eternal life. I quite agree that our *current* flesh and blood, which is mortal and infected with sin, cannot obtain eternal life.

But I wouldn't say that the promise of eternal life applies only to the spirit of man, and not to his physical body. The whole idea of promising *resurrection* to man is the guarantee that the physical body will be restored and share eternal existence with the soul.

 

[-Phil]

The future is absolutely hopeless.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sorry Randy, you say this is your position and it should make sense to me, but it doesn't. You do realize that which gives life to the body is the spirit in man, but it is not the body of man? It is the spirit, or the essence of life the human spirit is that has a spiritual association with the Lord. Our bodies are controlled by the spirit in us. Our spirit gives life to our organs, enables us to think, and move, and breath.
That's why it makes no sense to me for you to keep defining man's resurrected physical outward shell (body) as a spirit-body. It is a body with a spirit.

I understand what you're saying--I don't understand why you don't understand what I'm saying? I fully agree that man is a spirit--we have no debate about that. But inasmuch as the body describes Man as a *combination* of spirit and body I think that to be consistent the Bible describes our resurrection as the same, ie as the combination of spirit joined to a new physical body. Calling it a "spirit body" is therefore describing a spirit man joined to a new physical body that conforms to the Spirit of God.

It is not describing man being a bodiless spirit, having eternal life, apart from the promise of his new resurrection body. The spirit body and having eternal life is, in fact, the combination of human spirit and revived physical existence.

The spirit in man, when indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, has eternal life without the body.

This is the part I disagree with. I just don't hear it stated as such in the Bible.

But the human body without the spirit is dead. The natural human body is never eternal, that's why when our natural body is resurrected it must be changed from natural body destined to die, to immortal body that can never die. At the physical resurrection our body is raised immortal with an eternal spirit, then neither our body nor our spirit will ever again die.

That's the point I've continually been making, and you are contradicting yourself here. 1st you say the "human body is never eternal." And then you claim it can be "raised immortal." That is, my friend, a complete contradiction! It's no wonder we're in disagreement and you can't understand my position. You're dead set on believing something that is irrational and contradictory.

When a man is born again through the Spirit, Christ says the life we receive when we believe (born from above) is eternal or everlasting. Christ isn't talking about our body, because He knows every human body is under the curse and destined to die. What never dies in man, that Christ can make this promise of everlasting or eternal life? Our spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit never dies.

This is the problem I'm having with your position. You say that eternal life can only apply to the human spirit because the human spirit alone is eternally existing. But I'm denying that. I'm saying that through physical resurrection man can retain his identity as spirit and body, and thus both body and soul can obtain eternal life.

The fact we receive eternal life while we are yet in our mortal bodies does not contradict this. It is a *promise* of physical resurrection, and not just the application of eternal life to our spirits!

This is where you must be struggling. Because if our spirit through His Spirit in us never dies, where does our spirit continue to have life after our body dies?

As I said earlier, as bodiless spirits (after death and before resurrection) we do not yet have the fulfillment of Eternal Life--we only have a legal guarantee of that and the partial experience of what the Bible calls a "down payment" on our Salvation. We have a renewal of our spirit, as well as the promise of physical resurrection.

We enjoy the benefit of fellowship with God and a sharing in the virtues of Christ. But we do not yet have the full package, which requires more than a bodiless spirit--it requires a physical resurrection.

If you acknowledge that our spirit, through His Spirit in us, goes to heaven after our body dies then you would have to admit that your doctrine errs. Your doctrine of millennialism requires that the first resurrection be physical, with another resurrection 1,000 years plus later. But if there are human spiritual bodies, as living souls in heaven, that means the first resurrection is spiritual and the only physical resurrection will be when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no more.

No, you have this completely wrong! As a Millennialist I believe that at the 1st resurrection the saints of today and of ages past will obtain a full physical resurrection, whether they live for a thousand years in heaven or not. I believe Jesus was fully raised from the dead in a physical body after the Cross, and presently lives in heaven. But he is *not* a bodiless spirit with Eternal Life!

Man was given a choice to obey God and live forever or disobey and die. God could promise them life forever before they disobeyed Him because He breathed His Spirit of life into their spirit and made their bodies immortal. It was the breath of the Almighty that gave man life, and while the Spirit of God remined in man he would have lived forever.

That's not what I read. Breathing spirit-life in Man in the beginning was not Eternal Life. Receiving Eternal Life was associated with the Tree of Life, which Man failed to partake of. The eternity of his spiritual being certainly made him capable of receiving Eternal Life, but the fact he did not indicates that the eternity of his spirit has nothing to do with obtaining Eternal Life.

It was not just living in an innocent state forever, without falling, that constituted Eternal Life. It was choosing to eat from the Tree of Life. It was a picture of eating from Christ before the need for the Cross.

This is how man was created in the likeness and image of God. But this is what died on the day man disobeyed God. That's when the body of man became mortal and began to age, and that's when the spirit in man became natural, and without eternal life through the Spirit of God they were created with.

Let me be clear that I believe Man being created in the image of God involved not just his spiritual being, but also his physical being. Both were made in the image of God.

What the Bible calls the "Natural Man" reflects not upon a separation of spirit man from physical body, but rather, upon the separation of Man's spirit from God's Spirit, resulting in his physical death. Departing from obedience to God's Word caused Man to die.

It did not redefine Man as spirit in opposition to his body. Rather, it redefined him as a temporal being whose spirit could either be regenerated into a relationship with God or eternally separated from God. To be reunited with God requires spiritual regeneration along with a resurrection to physical immortality.

On the new earth man will once again have immortal and incorruptible bodies, and through the eternal Spirit of God once more breathed into their spirit we will live forever with the Lord.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 (KJV) The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

You finally admit why you insist our resurrected body will be a spirit-body. Because you believe we will possess the same supernatural power as the angels in heaven. You probably imagine we will be able to vanish and reappear. The problem with your imagination is that there is nothing in Scripture to prove what you think resurrected mankind will be.

I'm stating what the Bible says, that regenerated people will become like the angels. Not only did angels operate in a trans-dimensional way, but Jesus did, as well, even before he obtained his immortal body. So there is no concession to your beliefs. Sorry!

It's one of those subjects that is difficult to describe in tangible terms because we're talking about spiritual realities. And we, being physical beings, likely have some difficulty with that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The future is absolutely hopeless.

sometimes it appears so...

 

[-Phil]

sometimes it appears so...

Thoughts about. Isn’t it so?

 

[rwb]

We have this dichotomy between physical body and spirit soul. But we are told from the beginning that the soul is an essential combination between the spiritual ego and the physical body, ie they are to be viewed as one.

Man is born natural (of the earth) physical body, with a natural (worldly, dead in trespasses and sins) sprit, and the two together are called a living soul. This is why man must be born again to know and enter the Kingdom of God. Yes, the body must have a spirit to be a complete living soul.

However, the spirit that also has the Spirit of God within, after birth from above continues to have life after the body is dead and returns to God alive. If a man dies without the Spirit of God with their spirit, then that spirit returns to God without life. That's why Paul tells us that when our natural (physical) body dies, the spirit in believers, through the Spirit of God, become spiritual bodies, like angels in heaven who are spirits. A spiritual body has no form that one can see, because spirits are unseen. Spiritual bodies live in heaven because heaven is the abode of the Father, who is Spirit and where Christ since His ascension is. It is only in this age of TIME relegated to earth that faithful men/women go to heaven as spiritual body called a living (spirit) soul.

Man's spirit can be a living soul without a body, but a body without a living spirit is dead. That's why in this age of TIME, which a thousand years equates to, the Kingdom of God is being built as the Gospel goes unto all the nations of the world, and all who hear and believe spiritually enter the Kingdom of God through His indwelling Spirit. Since Christ has promised all who live and believe will never die, our spirit through His Spirit ascends with life to heaven a spiritual body after our body dies. That's where the living spirits of righteous men will reside until the last trumpet begins to sound that TIME on this earth shall be no more. Then our physical body will be resurrected and changed with our living spirit, and once again the faithful saints will be complete living souls.

 

[rwb]

The future is absolutely hopeless.

Only for he who remains in darkness and unbelief! The future is bright for the children of God! Because even though our body dies, we shall be with the Lord in heaven.

 

[-Phil]

Only for he who remains in darkness and unbelief! The future is bright for the children of God! Because even though our body dies, we shall be with the Lord in heaven.

What is the future?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Man is born natural (of the earth) physical body, with a natural (worldly, dead in trespasses and sins) sprit, and the two together are called a living soul. This is why man must be born again to know and enter the Kingdom of God. Yes, the body must have a spirit to be a complete living soul.

However, the spirit that also has the Spirit of God within, after birth from above continues to have life after the body is dead and returns to God alive. If a man dies without the Spirit of God with their spirit, then that spirit returns to God without life.

What you're doing here is mixing two different definitions of "life" here. As I've said from the start, Eternal Life and Eternal Existence are two different things. If we use the term "Life," without making this distinction, we end up in confusion.

Yes, the Lost end up without *Eternal Life.* But they don't cease to exist anymore than the saved when they die.

That's why Paul tells us that when our natural (physical) body dies, the spirit in believers, through the Spirit of God, become spiritual bodies, like angels in heaven who are spirits.

And so, when you're talking about the death of the Saved, just what do you mean when you say they become "spiritual bodies?" They don't cease to exist anymore than the Lost do, but they have already received Eternal Life. However, they don't actually obtain Eternal Life in the completely fulfilled sense until they are *raised from the dead.*

That means they do not have "spiritual bodies" until they are actually raised from the dead. They do *not* obtain spiritual bodies after death *before* they have been raised from the dead!

Your statements are extremely opaque on these matters because I keep raising them and you continue to double down on previous statements you've made without addressing these issues. At what point are you saying that the Saved obtain "spiritual bodies" after death--before or after their physical resurrection?

A spiritual body has no form that one can see, because spirits are unseen. Spiritual bodies live in heaven because heaven is the abode of the Father, who is Spirit and where Christ since His ascension is. It is only in this age of TIME relegated to earth that faithful men/women go to heaven as spiritual body called a living (spirit) soul.

Why are you saying that no one can see "spirits?" Samuel saw the spirit of Samuel, who had a physical appearance. It was not a resurrection body, but his spirit did have an appearance.

1 Sam 28.13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Man's spirit can be a living soul without a body, but a body without a living spirit is dead.

You see, here you're including both the Lost and the Saved as if in the same condition. You're saying that all, following physical death, are physically dead. That is a truism, and nobody would dispute it.

But you are saying this in the context of the possession of Eternal Life, which you say only the Saved have in their spirits. The fact is, after the Saved die they still don't have their possession of Eternal Life completed, or consummated.

The Saved have obtained Eternal Life legally, before they have obtained their immortal bodies, and in part they do experience Eternal Life, or the spiritual life that comes from the eternal Christ. But they don't have it completely until they actually obtain their resurrection bodies!

You seem to imply they have it before death, after death, and after their resurrection, as well? As such, you're defining Eternal Life as belonging to the spirits of the Saved even before they experience their physical resurrection.

And I'm saying that exists only *legally* and in part experientially, before their resurrection. The spiritual body Paul speaks of has to do not with their pre-resurrection spirits, but rather, with the completion of their experience of obtaining Eternal Life when they are *resurrected from the dead!*

That's why in this age of TIME, which a thousand years equates to, the Kingdom of God is being built as the Gospel goes unto all the nations of the world, and all who hear and believe spiritually enter the Kingdom of God through His indwelling Spirit. Since Christ has promised all who live and believe will never die, our spirit through His Spirit ascends with life to heaven a spiritual body after our body dies. That's where the living spirits of righteous men will reside until the last trumpet begins to sound that TIME on this earth shall be no more. Then our physical body will be resurrected and changed with our living spirit, and once again the faithful saints will be complete living souls.

I hear this notion regularly that time and eternity are separate domains? Well, certainly that is true for God, but it certainly isn't something we, as humans, can identify with.

So why speak about eternity as if we have a bit of sense about it? That is the worst kind of speculation, and in fact a form of pedantry. We should speak in terms that God gave us to speak in, or we will end up on the edge of insanity!

No, we are *not* told that our spirits have Eternal Life before the resurrection! When Jesus said we have already obtained Eternal Life, already know God, and already experience the fruits of divine virtue, and will never die, he was speaking of our *down payment* of this spiritual life presently, while awaiting the fulfillment of a legal contract we already possess. We only have Eternal Life *legally* right now--not in its complete sense, as Jesus himself taught we have not yet arrived at the Kingdom of God. It is only "near."