Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

[ewq1938]

True. But how about the very next verse?

1Thess 4:17,

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

He clearly says the living will be caught up. He uses a plural when he says "them in the clouds" because that's where Jesus and the former dead are waiting for the living to arrive. I know it sounds like he is saying the dead and living and raptured together but he doesn't mention the dead . They are part of the "them" that are already in the clouds, having been brought there by Christ.


The dead GO DOWN from heaven to the clouds while the living GO UP to the clouds.

The dead are not raptured and the living aren't resurrected.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus took those in Paradise to heaven with Him when He asceneded as written in Ephesians. He took Paradise with Him and now Paradise is empty.

Yet not one verse quoted to prove this.

So the tree of life was abandoned in sheol?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Why did Jesus take the people but left the tree of life down in the grave?

Paradise represents the Garden of Eden where God met daily with Adam on earth. At some point that place was moved to heaven.

Paul declares your opinion that you think exists in Scripture without actually having Scripture, null and void:

"such an one caught up to the third heaven. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Last I checked, being caught up, is the opposite direction of the grave, where you claim the tree of life is, still in sheol.

The word is only used 3 times in the KJV. Unless you can prove the translators are in error, there is only one Paradise found in Scripture, and it is not the one developed by erroneous human theology and imagination.

We are not told that much about Paradise, as Paul seems to indicate that knowledge is not to be shared with those on the earth, but certainly is not the grave, due to that secrecy.

Jesus took those in Abraham's bosom to Paradise and left Abraham's bosom empty. In fact they have been doing this in Paradise: besides eating of the tree of life....

"lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

John saw something in Paradise, he could tell us. Since Resurrection Sunday, they have been with the Lamb serving God in that heavenly temple. And the thief entered Paradise that day, 3 days before the rest did. His soul entered his physical body upon arrival. The rest ascended 3 days later with the Lamb. They have been with the Lamb ever since that moment.

The NT church has joined them over the last 1994 years, coming out of great tribulation that Jesus said the church would face from the time He left until the time He returns. Matthew 24:4-14. That great tribulation is the tribulation of those days; the last 1994 years. That tribulation immediately stops at the 6th Seal. The Trumpets start the time of Jacob's trouble, right after 144k of Jacob's descendants are sealed to be disciples on earth with the Lamb like the original 12 disciples, except this time in permanent incorruptible physical bodies that will be impervious to the GT. They will not be susceptible to Adam's dead flesh, like the original 12 disciples.

Jesus in giving that promise to the thief next to Him, means that when your soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh, your soul will be in Paradise that instant in a permanent incorruptible physical body, just like the thief was. Because Paradise is where the tree of life is.

Abraham was not looking to go back to the earthly garden that was no longer there after the Flood. He was looking for the heavenly Paradise, Abraham was waiting for; that which was made available by the Lamb of God. And the place in sheol where he was waiting was not called Paradise in Scripture, but was his name sake, because of his faith.

Abraham's bosom was what David referenced as walking through the valley of the shadow of death. Still not Paradise by description nor implication. Sheol was death, and Paradise is the opposite, eternal life.

 

[Rich R]

He clearly says the living will be caught up. He uses a plural when he says "them in the clouds" because that's where Jesus and the former dead are waiting for the living to arrive. I know it sounds like he is saying the dead and living and raptured together but he doesn't mention the dead . They are part of the "them" that are already in the clouds, having been brought there by Christ.


The dead GO DOWN from heaven to the clouds while the living GO UP to the clouds.

The dead are not raptured and the living aren't resurrected.

I see what you are saying, although I don't see it that way.

"Them" in verse 17 is a pronoun. A pronoun refers to its nearest antecedent which in this case is the risen dead in Christ from verse 16. It works that way in Greek and English. When seen this way there is no contradiction with the several clear verses I quoted that say the dead are really dead. They are not in heaven singing praises to God. The verses I quoted specifically say they don't praise anything. They're really dead.

If what you say is true, you'd have to make Thessalonians agree with the verses I quoted or accept contradictions in God's word. Not sure how the former could be done, and I'd be loathe to accept the latter. I'd guess you feel the same in that regard.

 

[Timtofly]

Not saying you are wrong, but where did you get that idea? Here's a couple of verses that seem to say something different:

1 Cor 15:52,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

1 Thess 4:16,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

This really seems to say that the dead rise. Nothing there about come down from heaven.

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I'm not sure why Christians think dead people aren't really dead. The so-called immortal soul was common in Greek and Egyptian theology, so maybe that's where it comes from. The scriptures are clear as to what the dead are doing and it's not sitting on clouds and playing harps (personally, I was really glad to hear I wouldn't be doing that for eternity). They seem to day the dead will be doing nothing other than rotting.

1 Cor 15:26,

The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.​

​

In truth, God calls death an enemy. Tradition says about death, "Going to meet your maker" could hardly be considered an enemy. Who ought we to believe, truth or tradition?

Ps 88:10,

Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.​

That is a rhetorical question meant to make us thing, i.e. a figure of speech. Lest there be any doubt as to the answer, God tells us in no uncertain terms what the dead do.

Ps 115:17,

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

Eccl 9:5,

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

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Ps 146:4,

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

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Wouldn't it be wise to align our thoughts with the scriptures instead of man's philosophy? 1 Thess 4:13-17 gives the true source of comfort when it comes to the death of our loved ones.

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You do realize that all that death talk from the OT was left null and void for those in Christ at the Cross?

It still may apply to those in sheol still waiting to this day, and will continue to wait for another 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

The dead in Christ can refer to us alive on the earth. Those asleep can refer to those physically alive in Paradise with the Lamb. To differentiate one must let the text and context speak, and not force one meaning over the other.

Can you explain why there are dead people in heaven? Not that they are dead to us, but you really think they are physically dead cluttering up the ground as dead corpse in the presence of the tree of life? Did they do something wrong to be in a state of death up in heaven?

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

So the first indoctrinated thought is: oh, that must be those in heaven, correct? Not necessarily. That is putting a thought into Scripture. So who are the dead who need life in this verse? What are we missing from the context of that chapter?

Earlier Paul said many would be made alive, but in a certain order. That does not mean all at the same time. If one is to arrange just one event, why claim there is order? Order implies multiple events over a long period of time.

At the Second Coming the only dead in Christ are those in a state of death, not those already made alive. Those who have been made alive are no longer the dead in Christ, they are the living in Christ. All those from the OT were made alive at the moment Jesus was on the Cross. Matthew 27 states that they all had physical bodies that day, so no longer the dead in Christ, but the living in Christ with permanent incorruptible physical bodies, because they all ascended to Paradise in those permanent incorruptible physical bodies, because any who are dead in Christ cannot ascend in that state of death. So Paul is saying that the dead in Christ still need to be changed, those on the earth, not those already alive in Christ already in Paradise for hours, days, years, or millennia. Because 1 Corinthians 15 is still about the order of being made alive in context. Those on the earth are the dead in Christ, not yet made alive.

In 1 Thessalonians:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

The context here is "asleep", meaning they are no longer on the earth. Paul is not saying they need to be resurrected. The dead in Christ in this context are those already made alive in Paradise. Obviously they are gathered first, and they don't fall down onto the earth. They arise into the air with Christ to meet those, once at a certain point, who are on earth, who will then also arise into the air. There is literally no resurrection implied nor stated in this verse.

Those in Paradise arise first with their physical bodies into the air with Christ. However far or long it takes is unknown, but they have to leave first, as those on earth will not rise until those from Paradise get closer to the earth.

But we want to jump to the thought "to rise" means resurrection, and then insert human doctrine into the text. Once again, those in Paradise are not dead. They have been made alive already, or they would not be allowed in Paradise to begin with. If that were the case, we as believers should be free to come and go between earth and Paradise. We are alive at least it seems that way, except all God sees is a redeemed human corpse walking around on earth in a state of death. We are the only dead in Christ, yet to be made alive. We are not asleep, as that would mean we have been made alive. Being made alive is the only way to come and go between heaven and earth.

But that is not allowed for a different reason. Having sons of God on the earth at the same time as Adam's dead corruptible flesh did not work out that well the first time, prior to the Flood.

 

[Rich R]

You do realize that all that death talk from the OT was left null and void for those in Christ at the Cross?

It still may apply to those in sheol still waiting to this day, and will continue to wait for another 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

The dead in Christ can refer to us alive on the earth. Those asleep can refer to those physically alive in Paradise with the Lamb. To differentiate one must let the text and context speak, and not force one meaning over the other.

Can you explain why there are dead people in heaven? Not that they are dead to us, but you really think they are physically dead cluttering up the ground as dead corpse in the presence of the tree of life? Did they do something wrong to be in a state of death up in heaven?

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

So the first indoctrinated thought is: oh, that must be those in heaven, correct? Not necessarily. That is putting a thought into Scripture. So who are the dead who need life in this verse? What are we missing from the context of that chapter?

Earlier Paul said many would be made alive, but in a certain order. That does not mean all at the same time. If one is to arrange just one event, why claim there is order? Order implies multiple events over a long period of time.

At the Second Coming the only dead in Christ are those in a state of death, not those already made alive. Those who have been made alive are no longer the dead in Christ, they are the living in Christ. All those from the OT were made alive at the moment Jesus was on the Cross. Matthew 27 states that they all had physical bodies that day, so no longer the dead in Christ, but the living in Christ with permanent incorruptible physical bodies, because they all ascended to Paradise in those permanent incorruptible physical bodies, because any who are dead in Christ cannot ascend in that state of death. So Paul is saying that the dead in Christ still need to be changed, those on the earth, not those already alive in Christ already in Paradise for hours, days, years, or millennia. Because 1 Corinthians 15 is still about the order of being made alive in context. Those on the earth are the dead in Christ, not yet made alive.

In 1 Thessalonians:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

The context here is "asleep", meaning they are no longer on the earth. Paul is not saying they need to be resurrected. The dead in Christ in this context are those already made alive in Paradise. Obviously they are gathered first, and they don't fall down onto the earth. They arise into the air with Christ to meet those, once at a certain point, who are on earth, who will then also arise into the air. There is literally no resurrection implied nor stated in this verse.

Those in Paradise arise first with their physical bodies into the air with Christ. However far or long it takes is unknown, but they have to leave first, as those on earth will not rise until those from Paradise get closer to the earth.

But we want to jump to the thought "to rise" means resurrection, and then insert human doctrine into the text. Once again, those in Paradise are not dead. They have been made alive already, or they would not be allowed in Paradise to begin with. If that were the case, we as believers should be free to come and go between earth and Paradise. We are alive at least it seems that way, except all God sees is a redeemed human corpse walking around on earth in a state of death. We are the only dead in Christ, yet to be made alive. We are not asleep, as that would mean we have been made alive. Being made alive is the only way to come and go between heaven and earth.

But that is not allowed for a different reason. Having sons of God on the earth at the same time as Adam's dead corruptible flesh did not work out that well the first time, prior to the Flood.

Adam and Eve were created perfect. God said they'd die if they disobeyed. The devil said they wouldn't really die. I think that's a good starting point for understanding death.

Regarding the meaning of being asleep,

1 Thess 5:5-7,

5 for you are all sons of light, and sons of the day. We are not of the night, nor of the darkness.​

​

6 So then, let us not be asleep as are the rest [of humankind], but let us be awake and be clearheaded.​

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7 For those who are sleeping, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.​

​

Clearly "sleeping" is used as a metaphor here. I would suggest that it is also a metaphor in 1 Thessalonians. The thing about being asleep is that there is no consciousness, no thoughts, awareness of time. That is in fact a perfect description of being dead and it agrees with the literal meaning of the OT verses I quoted.

 

[Timtofly]

While we will be with Jesus in the clouds. Exactly what that mean, I don't know. However it's worth noting that we will be with Jesus from that point on. Where will he be? Revelation 19:19 says he will come down with his army and make war with earthlings. There is no indication he goes back to heaven. Revelation 21:1-3 says the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven. Wouldn't that indicate it will be on the earth? It also says God will be with us.

You are mixing up those events that have a certain order in 1 Corinthians 15. Multiple events over a long period of time. That is order, not one single event at the end of time.

The purpose of Revelation 19 is the battle of Armageddon, not the Second Coming.

The rapture and Second Coming cannot be separated. There is a point in Revelation where the Second Coming happens, but it is not Revelation 19.

The verse says we will forever be with the Lord, not specifically the Lamb. Paul states earlier:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

God is directly involved in the Second Coming, so being forever with the Lord does not necessarily mean coming to the earth with the Lamb.

 

[ewq1938]

I see what you are saying, although I don't see it that way.

"Them" in verse 17 is a pronoun. A pronoun refers to its nearest antecedent which in this case is the risen dead in Christ from verse 16. It works that way in Greek and English. When seen this way there is no contradiction with the several clear verses I quoted that say the dead are really dead. They are not in heaven singing praises to God.

They are not singing but they are awake and alive in a bodiless sense and speaking/interacting as the 5th seal shows.

The verses I quoted specifically say they don't praise anything. They're really dead.

Those are address the dead here on Earth which is the physical remains.

 

[Rich R]

You are mixing up those events that have a certain order in 1 Corinthians 15. Multiple events over a long period of time. That is order, not one single event at the end of time.

The purpose of Revelation 19 is the battle of Armageddon, not the Second Coming.

The rapture and Second Coming cannot be separated. There is a point in Revelation where the Second Coming happens, but it is not Revelation 19.

The verse says we will forever be with the Lord, not specifically the Lamb. Paul states earlier:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

God is directly involved in the Second Coming, so being forever with the Lord does not necessarily mean coming to the earth with the Lamb.

I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. Yes, the second coming is a series of events that occur over a period of time. I see it beginning with Jesus gathering Christians, both dead and alive, with him in the clouds. That marks the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. Since we will be with Jesus in the clouds (whatever exactly that means I don't know), we will indeed be saved from the wrath (1 Thes 1:10). After that Jesus actually comes down to earth with us. Then the battle of Armageddon occurs. Jesus wins and begins the 1,000 year reign on the earth. Then God destroys heaven and earth and creates a new heaven and earth which lasts forever and that takes us back to Genesis 1 and fulfills the promise God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of an everlasting kingdom.

That's the general overview of I see the end times.

 

[Rich R]

They are not singing but they are awake and alive in a bodiless sense and speaking/interacting as the 5th seal shows.






Those are address the dead here on Earth which is the physical remains.

Gen 2:16-17,

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

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17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

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Gen 3:4,

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

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Who to believe?

 

[ewq1938]

Gen 2:16-17,

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

​

Gen 3:4,

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

​

Who to believe?

Both are true. Adam did not die physically that day but he did die a non-physical death the day he ate of the tree.

Back to the topic. The spirits of the dead are awake and speaking in heaven.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Additionally Christ spoke about the afterlife of two people and presented both as fully awake and alive. The dead here on Earth are silent, and rot away but that is the body. The spirit is very alive and can only die via the second death but survives death of the body.

 

[Rich R]

Both are true. Adam did not die physically that day but he did die a non-physical death the day he ate of the tree.

Back to the topic. The spirits of the dead are awake and speaking in heaven.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Additionally Christ spoke about the afterlife of two people and presented both as fully awake and alive. The dead here on Earth are silent, and rot away but that is the body. The spirit is very alive and can only die via the second death but survives death of the body.

Both are true? I think Jesus said the devil was a liar from the beginning.

I'm don't think anybody can actually see a soul. Given that a soul can't literally be seen, I'd say Rev 6:9 is a figure of speech. That section begins in Revelation 4 and it begins with the statement that a door in heaven was opened. Literally? I don't think so.

 

[Rich R]

They are not singing but they are awake and alive in a bodiless sense and speaking/interacting as the 5th seal shows.






Those are address the dead here on Earth which is the physical remains.

Well, the Greek philosophers and ancient Egyptians would agree with that. That's not the company I want to keep though.

Going to heaven upon death would not be a bad thing at all, certainly not an enemy. And yet God calls death exactly that; an enemy (1 Cor 15:26).

One thing for sure, we'll find out the real deal when Jesus comes back. We can have a more informed discussion at that time. I look forward to meeting you and all the other great folks hers!

 

[Timtofly]

Adam and Eve were created perfect. God said they'd die if they disobeyed. The devil said they wouldn't really die. I think that's a good starting point for understanding death.

Regarding the meaning of being asleep,

1 Thess 5:5-7,

5 for you are all sons of light, and sons of the day. We are not of the night, nor of the darkness.​

​

6 So then, let us not be asleep as are the rest [of humankind], but let us be awake and be clearheaded.​

​

7 For those who are sleeping, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.​

​

Clearly "sleeping" is used as a metaphor here. I would suggest that it is also a metaphor in 1 Thessalonians. The thing about being asleep is that there is no consciousness, no thoughts, awareness of time. That is in fact a perfect description of being dead and it agrees with the literal meaning of the OT verses I quoted.

Also for understanding life. Because they did physically die, and placed into a temporal corruptible body of death.

To be made alive is the reverse process. The soul is given that permanent incorruptible physical body the instant the soul arrives in Paradise.

There is no waiting for any future resurrection, for those in Christ. That is why we are the dead walking around in Adam's temporal corruptible physical body.

Why do people think the soul and the body are separately waiting to come together at a future moment of time? Are the soul and body doing different things in Paradise and not functioning as one unit?

Why do you think Paul would say that those in Christ are dead and thoughtless? You are certainly free to describe yourself, but certainly may not claim that about others.

Once again, you are taking OT thought and projecting that onto post Cross attributes. Jesus clearly left the dead in the OT past: Matthew 8:22 and Luke 9:60

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

The same account twice given, indicating the dead who are not in Christ burying the physically dead. So being dead is both physical and spiritual. And in the OT, the dead, even those in Christ had no clue what was going on, on the earth.


It was the Cross that changed the physical dynamic of the redeemed no longer physically dead. In Hebrews 11 and 12 now they are the great crowd of witnesses who see all the works of man going on, on the earth both good and bad.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."

The author likens that to the "fans in the stands" cheering on a race. Those in Christ in Paradise are neither asleep, nor dead. Yet they are to us who are alive on earth, both, from our perspective still in death, as they are no longer on the earth.

That is why Paul said do not mourn nor be without hope along with the rest of the world, because we will physically enjoy their company the instant we leave death behind, and enter life, called eternal, so cannot be taken away, not even by church doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. Yes, the second coming is a series of events that occur over a period of time. I see it beginning with Jesus gathering Christians, both dead and alive, with him in the clouds. That marks the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. Since we will be with Jesus in the clouds (whatever exactly that means I don't know), we will indeed be saved from the wrath (1 Thes 1:10). After that Jesus actually comes down to earth with us. Then the battle of Armageddon occurs. Jesus wins and begins the 1,000 year reign on the earth. Then God destroys heaven and earth and creates a new heaven and earth which lasts forever and that takes us back to Genesis 1 and fulfills the promise God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of an everlasting kingdom.

That's the general overview of I see the end times.

Well the point was not exactly on end time events, but the fact death itself changed at the Cross. The being made alive part started with all those OT dead you keep quoting from the OT about. They are no longer in sheol physically dead. They have been hanging out in Paradise with the physical tree of life, since 30AD.

All the church will be gathered into one place at the Second Coming. Then they will continue to wait in Paradise until the NHNE.

The millennium is for the physical reign of Christ on the earth. But not over nor with the church. The Day of the Lord is for doing what Genesis 1:28 told humans to do, prior to sin and death.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

No one living on earth during the Day of the Lord will have Adam's dead corruptible temporal physical body. That is the reason for the time of greatest tribulation. Jesus and the angels are on earth redeeming some and sending the majority to the LOF. Those gathered in the final harvest will be redeemed and changed. They will then have to live in obedience to the authority of Jesus Christ during those 1,000 years. The penalty of disobedience is still instant physical death. But no one will be allowed to live in a state of death like Adam and Eve, passing death down to all their offspring.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There aren't any who are snatched up. Christ brings the dead with him from heaven where they have always been and where the new resurrection has always been. You are simply misreading the passage.

Well I will let you take it up with the one who inspired this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

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15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo--snatched up) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I read it as written.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yet not one verse quoted to prove this.

So the tree of life was abandoned in sheol?

They do, you just reject them because it goes against your predispositional bias.

I never said that. That is you make making false assumptions.

Paradise represents the Garden of Eden where God met daily with Adam on earth. At some point that place was moved to heaven.

Paul declares your opinion that you think exists in Scripture without actually having Scripture, null and void:

"such an one caught up to the third heaven. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Last I checked, being caught up, is the opposite direction of the grave, where you claim the tree of life is, still in sheol.

Biblically prove your first six wordsa.

Then go back and reread what I wrote. I said Paradise was closed and caught up with the souls in paradise.

 

[Rich R]

Also for understanding life. Because they did physically die, and placed into a temporal corruptible body of death.

To be made alive is the reverse process. The soul is given that permanent incorruptible physical body the instant the soul arrives in Paradise.

There is no waiting for any future resurrection, for those in Christ. That is why we are the dead walking around in Adam's temporal corruptible physical body.

Why do people think the soul and the body are separately waiting to come together at a future moment of time? Are the soul and body doing different things in Paradise and not functioning as one unit?

Why do you think Paul would say that those in Christ are dead and thoughtless? You are certainly free to describe yourself, but certainly may not claim that about others.

Once again, you are taking OT thought and projecting that onto post Cross attributes. Jesus clearly left the dead in the OT past: Matthew 8:22 and Luke 9:60

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

The same account twice given, indicating the dead who are not in Christ burying the physically dead. So being dead is both physical and spiritual. And in the OT, the dead, even those in Christ had no clue what was going on, on the earth.


It was the Cross that changed the physical dynamic of the redeemed no longer physically dead. In Hebrews 11 and 12 now they are the great crowd of witnesses who see all the works of man going on, on the earth both good and bad.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."

Those guys are an exception to the rule about death clearly laid out in Ps 88:10, 115:17, Ecc 9:5-6, and others? Something's not right about that.

The author likens that to the "fans in the stands" cheering on a race. Those in Christ in Paradise are neither asleep, nor dead. Yet they are to us who are alive on earth, both, from our perspective still in death, as they are no longer on the earth.

That is why Paul said do not mourn nor be without hope along with the rest of the world, because we will physically enjoy their company the instant we leave death behind, and enter life, called eternal, so cannot be taken away, not even by church doctrine.

Well, again, I think that's pretty much what the serpent told Eve. It also agrees with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology.

I think the whole matter revolves about what "soul" means. We in the modern West have inherited our meaning from Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology, but the Hebrews saw it differently. Here's a clip form Hasting's Bible on "soul:"

"SOUL.—The use of the term in the OT (Heb. nephesh) for any animated being, whether human or animal (Gen 1:20 ‘life,’ Gen 2:7), must be distinguished from the Greek philosophical use for the immaterial substance which gives life to the body..."​

Gen 2:7,

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

​

Man does not "have" soul. According to this verse man, "became" a living soul. You can also see that it has to do with breath from the phrase, "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." If it breaths it lives. If it doesn't breath it's not a living being, i.e. it is dead. Really dead.

The Hebrew of Genesis 2:17 actually says that if they ate from the wrong tree, "dying thou shalt surely die." That's pretty definitive to me.

 

[Rich R]

Also for understanding life. Because they did physically die, and placed into a temporal corruptible body of death.

To be made alive is the reverse process. The soul is given that permanent incorruptible physical body the instant the soul arrives in Paradise.

There is no waiting for any future resurrection, for those in Christ. That is why we are the dead walking around in Adam's temporal corruptible physical body.

Why do people think the soul and the body are separately waiting to come together at a future moment of time? Are the soul and body doing different things in Paradise and not functioning as one unit?

Why do you think Paul would say that those in Christ are dead and thoughtless? You are certainly free to describe yourself, but certainly may not claim that about others.

Once again, you are taking OT thought and projecting that onto post Cross attributes. Jesus clearly left the dead in the OT past: Matthew 8:22 and Luke 9:60

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

The same account twice given, indicating the dead who are not in Christ burying the physically dead. So being dead is both physical and spiritual. And in the OT, the dead, even those in Christ had no clue what was going on, on the earth.


It was the Cross that changed the physical dynamic of the redeemed no longer physically dead. In Hebrews 11 and 12 now they are the great crowd of witnesses who see all the works of man going on, on the earth both good and bad.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."

The author likens that to the "fans in the stands" cheering on a race. Those in Christ in Paradise are neither asleep, nor dead. Yet they are to us who are alive on earth, both, from our perspective still in death, as they are no longer on the earth.

That is why Paul said do not mourn nor be without hope along with the rest of the world, because we will physically enjoy their company the instant we leave death behind, and enter life, called eternal, so cannot be taken away, not even by church doctrine.

Paul actually said we are not to mourn our dead brothers and sisters because, "...the dead in Christ shall rise..." For the dead to rise they have to be dead. The word "shall" means sometime in the future. In this case it's when Jesus comes back to gather us together. Until then, the dead are really dead. With something that clearly stated, I see no reason to go through a bunch of mental gymnastics so as to accord with a preconceived idea. Just accept what's written as it's written.

 

[Timtofly]

They do, you just reject them because it goes against your predispositional bias.

I never said that. That is you make making false assumptions.

Biblically prove your first six wordsa.

Then go back and reread what I wrote. I said Paradise was closed and caught up with the souls in paradise.

Except Paradise was never given to the state of death. And you have no verses to prove that point. Ephesians does not say Jesus descended into Paradise. Ephesians 4:9

"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth"

The word paradise is found 3 places in the NT. 2 of them in the heavens. It is your bias that does not come from Scripture, that states paradise has to have been in the lower parts of the earth. Explain this bias you claim I have, as my point comes from the point Scripture claims Paradise is in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

Those guys are an exception to the rule about death clearly laid out in Ps 88:10, 115:17, Ecc 9:5-6, and others? Something's not right about that.


Well, again, I think that's pretty much what the serpent told Eve. It also agrees with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology.

I think the whole matter revolves about what "soul" means. We in the modern West have inherited our meaning from Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology, but the Hebrews saw it differently. Here's a clip form Hasting's Bible on "soul:"

"SOUL.—The use of the term in the OT (Heb. nephesh) for any animated being, whether human or animal (Gen 1:20 ‘life,’ Gen 2:7), must be distinguished from the Greek philosophical use for the immaterial substance which gives life to the body..."​

Gen 2:7,

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

​

Man does not "have" soul. According to this verse man, "became" a living soul. You can also see that it has to do with breath from the phrase, "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." If it breaths it lives. If it doesn't breath it's not a living being, i.e. it is dead. Really dead.

The Hebrew of Genesis 2:17 actually says that if they ate from the wrong tree, "dying thou shalt surely die." That's pretty definitive to me.

The body does not determine who you are. The soul does. The soul has a body. The soul has a spirit that is separated from us in our state of death. In this state of death we are a soul that has put on a physical body. That is it. The spirit will be put on at the Second Coming. I do not adhere to Greek philosophy. Nor much of church theology given by converts from Greek tradition. We do not have the spirit in us. The word spirit in that usage just means air. I don't even care for the terms mortal or immortal.