Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

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Hobie

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Christ tells us what will happen, there will be two resurrestions, one for the saints and one when the wicked are brought up for damnation.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

WE see the same by Paul in Acts..
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So both Jesus Christ and Paul spoke of two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of life for the just, and the second being the resurrection of damnation for the unjust. We also find it in Daniel,

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So we see these in Revelation 20, the two resurrections, one at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the other at the end. If you die before Jesus Christ returns, what resurrection will you be in? Now is the time to make sure we are true believers in Jesus Christ and real followers of His Holy Word. Take a careful look and it becomes clear.

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We see in verse 6 that at the end, their will be the "first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power", which is "the resurrection of life". This one is of the righteous saints who he raises up and takes with him to heaven, and are reigning in heaven with Jesus. Then we have the other resurrection, "the resurrection of damnation" that is laid out...
Revelation 20:5
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

The wicked have been struck down and are dead so their is no one for Satan to temp, but this changes after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:7-8
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth".

Although not explicitly stated, it is obvious the unrighteous dead were resurrected after the 1000 years ended and Satan can now go about with his deceptions. They are now bound to the second death in which they will perish as they are consumed in the lake of fire.

We, the saints have the resurrection of life, 'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection'. on which 'the second death hath no power'. And the second resurrection, which is of the wicked, the "resurrection of damnation" or as Daniel says of, "shame and everlasting contempt" in which those not found 'in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.'

We see the saints go to Heaven at the Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the resurrection of the righteous dead, they and the living saints are caught up "to meet the Lord in the air". Then Christ will fulfill the promise He made, 'I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also'...
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus described the place to which He will take His followers as "'My Father's house,'" where there are "'many mansions,'" or dwelling places. Here Jesus refers to the New Jerusalem, which does not come to this earth until the end of the millennium. At the Second Coming, then, when the righteous "meet the Lord in the air," their destination is heaven, not the earth that they have just left. Christ does not establish His kingdom of glory on the earth at this time. He does that at the end of the 1000 year millennium when we see the saints and Christ coming down, as the New Jerusalem comes to earth as foretold.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
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Hobie

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So at the Second Coming, the first resurrection of the saints takes place, then you have the thousand year period. Verses one through three, are referring to the leader of the wicked, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit, which is here on earth. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment during the thousand year period cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. The judgment that the saints are involved in is for the purpose of understanding why or why not, certain people are or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years.

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, the wicked, did not live again until the thousand years were finished, then you will have them brought up. But verse six says that those who are saved, and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy and the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been defeated and they shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there, and go over the books.

Then at verse seven which is after the the thousand years are expired, which is where you have the second resurrection, the one of damnation in which the wicked are brought up, and 'Satan shall be loosed out of his prison'. This goes on through verse fifteen which gives what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period, must be resurrected. Thus having died once already the death appointed to man, the one to the grave, slain at Christ’s second coming , they will die the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan. That both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected, which is the verses we saw...

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

and Paul in Acts..
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

And Daniel,

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years. So now, the wicked surround the 'beloved city', and fire comes down from God, and devours them as we see in verse 9. This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, and the Beast, and the False prophet are and where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death, as we see in verses 13-15. The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period and be the judgment that they were involved in. So you have the lake of fire where it all ends for the wicked, all evil, and sin ends and will be no more, and the saints will reign with Christ in His city for eternity.
 

Keraz

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So both Jesus Christ and Paul spoke of two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of life for the just, and the second being the resurrection of damnation for the unjust. We also find it in Daniel,
A plain reading of Revelation 20:11-15, shows that the righteous and the wicked are Judged at the same time.
The Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality. If not found, then annihilation.
 
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Hobie

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A plain reading of Revelation 20:11-15, shows that the righteous and the wicked are Judged at the same time.
The Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality. If not found, then annihilation.
So how do you read this plainly...
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

They have been judged before the coming of Christ...
Matthew 25:31-41
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The Investigative Judgement has already begun and the 'judgement scene' in Revelation 20:11-15 is of the Wicked who are the ones left behind as you see in the previous verses Revelation 20:7-9, and it is only the to show before all that Gods judgement it true..
Here are all the Wicked..
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

As we see from the previous verses..
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

As the Wicked come to attack the city, the great white throne is set up and everyone will see that God is just, even the wicked.
Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
 

WPM

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So at the Second Coming, the first resurrection of the saints takes place, then you have the thousand year period. Verses one through three, are referring to the leader of the wicked, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit, which is here on earth. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment during the thousand year period cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. The judgment that the saints are involved in is for the purpose of understanding why or why not, certain people are or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years.

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, the wicked, did not live again until the thousand years were finished, then you will have them brought up. But verse six says that those who are saved, and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy and the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been defeated and they shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there, and go over the books.

Then at verse seven which is after the the thousand years are expired, which is where you have the second resurrection, the one of damnation in which the wicked are brought up, and 'Satan shall be loosed out of his prison'. This goes on through verse fifteen which gives what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period, must be resurrected. Thus having died once already the death appointed to man, the one to the grave, slain at Christ’s second coming , they will die the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan. That both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected, which is the verses we saw...

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

and Paul in Acts..
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

And Daniel,

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years. So now, the wicked surround the 'beloved city', and fire comes down from God, and devours them as we see in verse 9. This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, and the Beast, and the False prophet are and where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death, as we see in verses 13-15. The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period and be the judgment that they were involved in. So you have the lake of fire where it all ends for the wicked, all evil, and sin ends and will be no more, and the saints will reign with Christ in His city for eternity.

The first resurrection has already occurred.
  1. Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?
  2. Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
  3. Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
  4. Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
 
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WPM

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Christ tells us what will happen, there will be two resurrestions, one for the saints and one when the wicked are brought up for damnation.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

WE see the same by Paul in Acts..
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So both Jesus Christ and Paul spoke of two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of life for the just, and the second being the resurrection of damnation for the unjust. We also find it in Daniel,

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So we see these in Revelation 20, the two resurrections, one at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the other at the end. If you die before Jesus Christ returns, what resurrection will you be in? Now is the time to make sure we are true believers in Jesus Christ and real followers of His Holy Word. Take a careful look and it becomes clear.

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We see in verse 6 that at the end, their will be the "first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power", which is "the resurrection of life". This one is of the righteous saints who he raises up and takes with him to heaven, and are reigning in heaven with Jesus. Then we have the other resurrection, "the resurrection of damnation" that is laid out...
Revelation 20:5
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

The wicked have been struck down and are dead so their is no one for Satan to temp, but this changes after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:7-8
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth".

Although not explicitly stated, it is obvious the unrighteous dead were resurrected after the 1000 years ended and Satan can now go about with his deceptions. They are now bound to the second death in which they will perish as they are consumed in the lake of fire.

We, the saints have the resurrection of life, 'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection'. on which 'the second death hath no power'. And the second resurrection, which is of the wicked, the "resurrection of damnation" or as Daniel says of, "shame and everlasting contempt" in which those not found 'in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.'

We see the saints go to Heaven at the Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the resurrection of the righteous dead, they and the living saints are caught up "to meet the Lord in the air". Then Christ will fulfill the promise He made, 'I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also'...
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus described the place to which He will take His followers as "'My Father's house,'" where there are "'many mansions,'" or dwelling places. Here Jesus refers to the New Jerusalem, which does not come to this earth until the end of the millennium. At the Second Coming, then, when the righteous "meet the Lord in the air," their destination is heaven, not the earth that they have just left. Christ does not establish His kingdom of glory on the earth at this time. He does that at the end of the 1000 year millennium when we see the saints and Christ coming down, as the New Jerusalem comes to earth as foretold.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Your placement of Revelation 20 is all wrong. You are placing a meaning on it that enjoys no corroboration anywhere else in Scripture. Every resurrection and judgment passage shows a general resurrection and a general judgment. You have to insert 1000 years throughout the Word where it is unknown and unwelcome.
 
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Zao is life

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So at the Second Coming, the first resurrection of the saints takes place, then you have the thousand year period. Verses one through three, are referring to the leader of the wicked, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit, which is here on earth. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment during the thousand year period cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. The judgment that the saints are involved in is for the purpose of understanding why or why not, certain people are or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years.

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, the wicked, did not live again until the thousand years were finished, then you will have them brought up. But verse six says that those who are saved, and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy and the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been defeated and they shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there, and go over the books.

Then at verse seven which is after the the thousand years are expired, which is where you have the second resurrection, the one of damnation in which the wicked are brought up, and 'Satan shall be loosed out of his prison'. This goes on through verse fifteen which gives what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period, must be resurrected. Thus having died once already the death appointed to man, the one to the grave, slain at Christ’s second coming , they will die the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan. That both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected, which is the verses we saw...

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

and Paul in Acts..
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

And Daniel,

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
It all goes to show that there isn't 100% clarity for us,

but I'm glad you have backed up what you say about the resurrected saints ruling with Christ from heaven with John 14:1-3, because indeed it is pertinent to what you are saying, and it has also caused me to think about the following things:

I believe that the new heavens and earth and the millennium will probably commence at the same time (I have posted a number of scriptures to show why I say this in another thread).

Bear with me on this just for a while (please):

THE GATES

Revelation 21
14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.

The city has a high wall (Revelation 21:12) - a border to keep those mentioned in Revelation 21:27 and Revelation 22:15 out, and there are 12 gates that have the names of the 12 sons of Israel inscribed on them, through which the resurrected saints may enter into the city, and the wall has 12 foundations, and in them the names of the 12 apostles.
"Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone." (Ephesians 2:20).
So to me - and this is just a thought - the fact that the resurrected saints in Christ are able to enter into the city through the 12 gates, but the unholy cannot enter and remain outside the city, suggests that the resurrected saints in Christ are able to pass into heaven and back to the earth at will, and the gates are metaphorical for 12 portals between heaven and earth in the new heavens and the new earth.

This can only be the case though if the city descends down from God out of heaven a thousand years earlier (IMO) than most Premillennialists believe it will (i.e, at the start of the millennium).

To me what's written in the Revelation about New Jerusalem and the new heavens and new earth are metaphorical descriptions of what will take place after Christ has returned, but the thousand years, which I also believe will commence when Christ has returned, is speaking about the first thousand years of the new heavens and new earth.

Passing through the gates of New Jerusalem = passing from earth into heaven, where (heaven) there is no need for the light of the sun, "for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Revelation 21:23).

This is why (perhaps) during the thousand years "there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27);

and why "those whose authority will be over the Tree of Life" "may enter in by the gates into the city, but outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15);

and why "the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it." "And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it." (Revelation 21:24, 26).

I believe the kings of the earth mentioned above are the same kings of the earth mentioned below:

"Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:5-6).
As I said, I have posted a number of scriptures in another thread giving other biblical facts (aside from the above) to say why I believe that the new heavens and earth and the millennium will probably commence at the same time.

But there isn't 100% clarity (although the answer is there, we just do not see the whole picture yet).

6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev 21

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20
 
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WPM

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It all goes to show that there isn't 100% clarity for us,

but I'm glad you have backed up what you say about the resurrected saints ruling with Christ from heaven with John 14:1-3, because indeed it is pertinent to what you are saying, and it has also caused me to think about the following things:

I believe that the new heavens and earth and the millennium will probably commence at the same time (I have posted a number of scriptures to show why I say this in another thread).

Bear with me on this just for a while (please):

THE GATES

Revelation 21
14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.

The city has a high wall (Revelation 21:12) - a border to keep those mentioned in Revelation 21:27 and Revelation 22:15 out, and there are 12 gates that have the names of the 12 sons of Israel inscribed on them, through which the resurrected saints may enter into the city, and the wall has 12 foundations, and in them the names of the 12 apostles.
"Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone." (Ephesians 2:20).
So to me - and this is just a thought - the fact that the resurrected saints in Christ are able to enter into the city through the 12 gates, but the unholy cannot enter and remain outside the city, suggests that the resurrected saints in Christ are able to pass into heaven and back to the earth at will, and the gates are metaphorical for 12 portals between heaven and earth in the new heavens and the new earth.

This can only be the case though if the city descends down from God out of heaven a thousand years earlier (IMO) than most Premillennialists believe it will (i.e, at the start of the millennium).

To me what's written in the Revelation about New Jerusalem and the new heavens and new earth are metaphorical descriptions of what will take place after Christ has returned, but the thousand years, which I also believe will commence when Christ has returned, is speaking about the first thousand years of the new heavens and new earth.

Passing through the gates of New Jerusalem = passing from earth into heaven, where )heaven) there is no need for the light of the sun, "for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Revelation 21:23).

This is why (perhaps) during the thousand years "there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27);

and why "those whose authority will be over the Tree of Life" "may enter in by the gates into the city, but outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15);

and why "the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it." "And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it." (Revelation 21:24, 26).

I believe the kings of the earth mentioned above are the same kings of the earth mentioned below:

"Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:5-6).
As I said, I have posted a number of scriptures in another thread giving other biblical facts (aside from the above) to say why I believe that the new heavens and earth and the millennium will probably commence at the same time.
This does not add up. How can you possibly equate the millennial earth to the new heavens and new earth? They are polar opposites.

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.

The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.

The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.

The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.

The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.

The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.

The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.

The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.
 

Zao is life

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This does not add up. How can you possibly equate the millennial earth to the new heavens and new earth? They are polar opposites.

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.

The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.

The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.

The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.

The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.

The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.

The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.

The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.
Saying that the new earth cannot contain Satan until he is destroyed in LOF is the same as saying that the Garden of Eden could not contain Satan.

That's why it doesn't add up for you, and that's also why the things you say about the millennium never adds up with scripture.

In case you never noticed, there is no death of the resurrected saints in the new earth. But you also haven't noticed that there are nations whose glory and honor are being brought into New Jerusalem by the kings of the earth.
 
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Zao is life

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This does not add up. How can you possibly equate the millennial earth to the new heavens and new earth? They are polar opposites.

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.

The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.

The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.

The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.

The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.

The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.

The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.

The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.
In case you never noticed, there is no death of the resurrected saints in the new earth. But you also haven't noticed that there are nations whose glory and honor are being brought into New Jerusalem by the kings of the earth.

You don't read who the no more tears and pain is applied to in the new heavens and new earth. It's not applied to the nations who are outside the city.

You don't read a lot of things. You just skip them.
 

WPM

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In case you never noticed, there is no death of the resurrected saints in the new earth. But you also haven't noticed that there are nations whose glory and honor are being brought into New Jerusalem by the kings of the earth.

You don't read who the no more tears and pain is applied to in the new heavens and new earth. It's not applied to the nations who are outside the city.

You don't read a lot of things. You just skip them.

According to Revelation, does the new heavens and earth arrive before or after the millennium?
 

Timtofly

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According to Revelation, does the new heavens and earth arrive before or after the millennium?
Obviously according to Revelation the Millennium is between the Second Coming and the NHNE. But don't let that stop you from changing the chronological order yourself. You are in the same shape as the other poster. You claim the NHNE starts at the Second Coming, when obviously they do not. How is that different from the other poster? There is no Second Coming, nor any Coming at all in Revelation 20.

If we look at Isaiah 65, you conveniently remove death and sin from that chapter, even though they are explicitly referred to. How many people since the Cross have been removed from society, the first time they disobeyed God? So you have sin and death in your NHNE. Also sin and death in your Day of the Lord, the millennium reign of Christ.
 

WPM

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Obviously according to Revelation the Millennium is between the Second Coming and the NHNE. But don't let that stop you from changing the chronological order yourself. You are in the same shape as the other poster. You claim the NHNE starts at the Second Coming, when obviously they do not. How is that different from the other poster? There is no Second Coming, nor any Coming at all in Revelation 20.

If we look at Isaiah 65, you conveniently remove death and sin from that chapter, even though they are explicitly referred to. How many people since the Cross have been removed from society, the first time they disobeyed God? So you have sin and death in your NHNE. Also sin and death in your Day of the Lord, the millennium reign of Christ.

No. I have addressed your claims many times and you have repeatedly ducked around the original language and all my attached arguments. You have to! This is the pattern of most Premils online. That is because Premil does not add up. It is non corroborative theory.

The new heaven and new earth come after the millennium. That is a fact! This is what you fight with.

Premils duplicates everything. Two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections," 2 new heavens and new earths, 2 “last days” periods. They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming). What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?
 
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ewq1938

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but the unholy cannot enter and remain outside the city, suggests that the resurrected saints in Christ are able to pass into heaven and back to the earth at will, and the gates are metaphorical for 12 portals between heaven and earth in the new heavens and the new earth.

There is nothing about portals between heaven and earth. That seriously needs to be tossed where it belongs. Fictional beliefs do not belong in any bible discussion.

As for the rest, Judas is outside the city and cannot enter but doesn't mean he is alive and living outside of that city. NJ does not come to Earth until the Earth is new, and that doesn't happen before or during the Millennium.
 

Zao is life

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There is nothing about portals between heaven and earth. That seriously needs to be tossed where it belongs. Fictional beliefs do not belong in any bible discussion.

As for the rest, Judas is outside the city and cannot enter but doesn't mean he is alive and living outside of that city. NJ does not come to Earth until the Earth is new, and that doesn't happen before or during the Millennium.
Likewise then the Amils can say to you that your belief that resurrected saints will be reigning over mortals needs to be tossed where it belongs because fictional beliefs do not belong in any Bible discussion.

And they do say it.

So maybe you want to refrain from discussing Revelation 20 and the NHNE.

@ewq1938 The Amils are probably correct when they say that your belief that the NHNE will only come 1,000 years after the return of Christ seriously needs to be tossed where it belongs because it's a fictional belief that does not belong in any Bible discussion, because there are too many scriptures which belong together which refute such a notion.

So if you believe that the the millennium follows the return of Christ then you need to ask yourself who, in the context of what it's saying, the following promise is being made to:

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Because it's talking to those who came out of the Great Tribulation which preceded the return of Christ, and it's repeated in Revelation 21.

And as all Amils know, that's only two scriptures. So what you say seriously needs to be tossed where it belongs because your notion that the NHNE follows the millennium which follows the return of Christ does not belong in any Bible discussion.​
 
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ewq1938

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Likewise then the Amils can say to you that your belief that resurrected saints will be reigning over mortals needs to be tossed where it belongs because fictional beliefs do not belong in any Bible discussion.


Don't compare biblical things with the imaginational sci-fi gate portal stuff you spoke about.
 

Timtofly

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No. I have addressed your claims many times and you have repeatedly ducked around the original language and all my attached arguments. You have to! This is the pattern of most Premils online. That is because Premil does not add up. It is non corroborative theory.

The new heaven and new earth come after the millennium. That is a fact! This is what you fight with.

Premils duplicates everything. Two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections," 2 new heavens and new earths, 2 “last days” periods. They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming). What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?
Why not address my post instead of arguments not even brought up?

Those points are your own arguments and not from Scripture.

There was a resurrection at the Cross in Matthew 27. Do you deny God's Word, and hide behind false accusations? The resurrection is an ongoing phenomenon, because the living in this present physical condition cannot prevent those from rising first, at no point in time. Not in the first century, the second century, nor the 2 millenia since the first century. Jesus specifically stated that those in Christ, would never taste death, because Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. There is no waiting in the grave for the redeemed. There is the point that even at the GWT some will be granted eternal life and righteousness. You all assume all the dead will be destroyed, but Daniel pointed out that even then some will be redeemed as well.

That is not 2 resurrections, nor 3 resurrections. That is the point none in Christ of the Second Birth will ever need a resurrection, because the soul leaves Adam's temporal corruptible physical body, and immediately enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1. The day the soul leaves this dead flesh is the day of redemption. You think the day of redemption is a single point in time. You don't accept the first resurrection is physical, and ongoing. You think it is spiritual and you have 2 second births, while accusing others of having 2 false points. It is Amil who have 2 second births and they call one the first resurrection.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said that creation because of Adam would be made alive at 3 seperate points.

1. Christ the firstfruits.

2. Christ at the Second Coming.

3. The end after Christ must reign until all enemies are brought under subjection.

Amil see only one made alive point; their "second coming".

Amil reject souls were made alive, restored out of sin and death at the Cross.

Amil reject that Jesus as King will rule the nations at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11:15

Amil reject the Sabbath Day of the Lord which is a time set apart Holy unto God wherein only righteousness dwells and the transgression is removed from creation per Daniel 9:24.

And yes, it is unfortunate that when Satan is loosed many are decieved whereby they are consumed with fire, the last of humanity made subject to death. But they are not deceieved during the Day of the Lord. Besides, that is the worse case scenario. Until it actually happens, who knows? You think it is just a vision and symbolic of the here and now, and not even real. Obviously 100 percent of humanity is currently already deceived by Satan because they are born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Do you deny you were born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh? In your scenario that would be 2 deceptions, the one you inherit at birth and then somehow deceived by Satan into thinking you are perfect the way you are.
 

Davidpt

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According to Revelation, does the new heavens and earth arrive before or after the millennium?

Per your view, you don't have the NHNE happening until the great white throne judgment has occurred first. And that you have no more days remaining once the last day of this age occurs when Christ returns. Do you then think that the great white throne judgment can commence and conclude on the very same day Christ returns? Keeping in mind that a last day is still involving measurable time, obviously. If Christ returns on a Wednesday, for example. Obviously, 24 hours later it would no longer be the same day He returned.

You would have us believe that before it is another day, that the great white throne judgment involving billions and billions of ppl from the beginning of time through the end of time, will have commenced and have concluded entirely? Keeping in mind, per your view, until the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled first, there can't be a NHNE in the meantime.

If you argue that the great white throne judgment happens in the last day, then argue that the GWTJ happens outside of time, you are then contradicting what you are arguing since there is no such thing as a last day in the realm of outside of time.
 
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Timtofly

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Likewise then the Amils can say to you that your belief that resurrected saints will be reigning over mortals needs to be tossed where it belongs because fictional beliefs do not belong in any Bible discussion.

And they do say it.

So maybe you want to refrain from discussing Revelation 20 and the NHNE.

@ewq1938 The Amils are probably correct when they say that your belief that the NHNE will only come 1,000 years after the return of Christ seriously needs to be tossed where it belongs because it's a fictional belief that does not belong in any Bible discussion, because there are too many scriptures which belong together which refute such a notion.

So if you believe that the the millennium follows the return of Christ then you need to ask yourself who, in the context of what it's saying, the following promise is being made to:

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Because it's talking to those who came out of the Great Tribulation which preceded the return of Christ, and it's repeated in Revelation 21.

And as all Amils know, that's only two scriptures. So what you say seriously needs to be tossed where it belongs because your notion that the NHNE follows the millennium which follows the return of Christ does not belong in any Bible discussion.​
"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

This verse does not state the same thing as this verse:

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

The first verse describes the redeemed in heaven since the Cross. This has been true for the last 2 millennium, and will remain true for the Day of the Lord.

The second verse is describing the New Jerusalem after the Day of the Lord. The first verse will no longer be a reality, because there will no longer be a heaven with a temple nor a Paradise, Paul refers to as the third heaven. The NHNE as described in Revelation 21 is a totally different reality and creation from the one in Revelation 20, where they are serving God day and night in that heavenly temple.

Amil take Revelation 21 as being chronologically in time after Revelation 20. They do not agree with you. Because you do to those two chapters what they do to Revelation 19 and 20. So obviously neither option is viable for those who see Revelation 19 coming in time prior to Revelation 20, which in turn happens prior to Revelation 21.

Now some Amil may spiritualize even Revelation 21 following after preterist who just view Revelation 21 as each and every redeemed person, whom Satan can sit in their midst, evidently. They contradict themselves by avoiding being labeled as a futurist, what ever that is. Amil spiritualize Isaiah 65. Amil spiritualize Zechariah 14. When the NT was put into words and most after 70AD, all was still future. Paul and Peter wrote via a scribe, and sometimes without a scribe obviously prior to 70AD, as they were already dead for a few years. But not sure how the entire body of Paul and Peter's writings were supposed to be irrelevant within 5 years of their deaths?

Revelation 7 is not talking about THEE Great Tribulation. The GT is Jacob's trouble. That hardly covers all nations and tongues, regardless that Jacob has been scattered throughout all nations for 3 millennia. Do you all not understand that the church is not Jacob, but people from all nations and tribes for 6 millennia? Of course not. That is your kryptonite, your interpretation of Romans.

John was using Greek that states "those coming out of the great the tribulation". The use of the article as redundant in Greek is not even necessary in the English prepositional phrase. They have come out of great tribulation. Obviously the last 6,000 years. The NT church since the Cross. That scene in heaven in Revelation 7 has been true since the Cross. Some having great tribulation even in the prior 4 millennia before the Cross. Why is it that people think the entire church comes out of a few years length of time, and forget that the vast majority are already redeemed and enjoying heaven and have done so for almost 2 thousands years?

Not even Preterist think that the church has physically been enjoying Paradise since 30AD. The one thing that is true about the first century.

There is not even one explicit point made in the entire chapter of Revelation 6 implying a time of Great Tribulation. All conjecture adding people's opinions to God's Word. Even 2 billion people literally killed is explained away as just 25% of the earth, not people really dying. Those souls under the alter are the entire church redeemed and covered by the blood of the Lamb. The entire group as the ones portrayed in the next chapter. Not a single redeemed soul is in a seperate group somewhere else in Paradise.

All the redeemed are under the alter from all time since Enoch. All the redeemed from all time have been serving God in that heavenly temple since 30AD. Entering Paradise is an ongoing phenomenon since the thief entered that day when his soul left Adam's dead flesh for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Enoch and Moses being the other two who were there prior, because they are the only two who appeared as Elijah and Moses on the mount of Transfiguration.
 

Zao is life

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Don't compare biblical things with the imaginational sci-fi gate portal stuff you spoke about.
God's throne is in New Jerusalem. It's going to descend from God out of heaven to the earth. It has 12 gates. The gates of God.

Sorry if you don't like the analogy of portals. I should have stuck to a biblical word - gates. Because the word portals is your only argument against what I was saying, aside from the fact that there is no more death for those inside New Jerusalem. So you used the word "portals" as a red herring instead of admit that Amils have a lot of scriptures that you have to ignore to make the NHNE come a thousand years after the return of Christ.

When you ignore the scriptures, you do what Amils do when they ignore the scriptures and biblical facts regarding the millennium and the binding of Satan etc.

@ewq1938


Educate yourself on the various meanings of the word. Gate is one of them.

@ewq1938

And it had a great and high wall, with twelve gates [pylṓn]. And at the gates ware twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel:

[Strongs Greek 04440] πυλών pylṓn, poo-lone'
from 4439;
a gate-way, door-way of a building or city; by implication, a portal or vestibule:--gate, porch.

You may as well have a problem with the English word "gates" too and ask the translators of the New Testament to find a better word.
 
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