Understanding the Trinity.

[Cooper]

That's the point!
God has no beginning or End! God can not be Born... As God has no beginning! Being first born over all creation proves that He did not exist until the creation came to be.

Paul

Have you forgotten that the omnipresent God, who is spirit, is with us even now, and became visible in the form of man in Genesis 5, can speak to Moses from a fire, be in a rock that Moses struck, and in the flesh of Jesus Christ who stated "Not I, but the Father in me?"
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[Pierac]

Amen! Excellent!! And, a Whole Lot MORE:

"Complete Case" For JESUS Is Almighty God!

IF critics would only Prayerfully AND Carefully review God's Evidence!
Could make an Eternal difference for them, eh?

Then How can He have a God... Your theology fails at the basic level!

Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Deu 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him….39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict. Yet you continue to post that which contradicts the word of God.

Paul

 

[Cooper]

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict. Yet you continue to post that which contradicts the word of God.

Paul

The Redeemer and LORD of hosts, the first and the last, when was this please? Before or after the birth of Jesus?
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[Pierac]

The Redeemer and LORD of hosts, the first and the last, when was this please?
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The Trinity

The Trinity

 

[Cooper]

The Trinity

The Trinity

I was asking what period in time was the Redeemer present with the King of Israel.
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[Desire Of All Nations]

When Jesus, the alpha and omega said, "the Father is greater than I" he was speaking of his time on earth.

Paul said that the Father is superior to Christ in authority:

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Cor. 11:3

Paul says that Christ is not, nor has He ever been, His Father's equal. We see this again in Rev. 1:1 where John establishes the fact that the Father is the sole source of prophecy and that it had to be relayed to Christ for Him to even know about it. If the trinity doctrine is true, Paul and John's words in 1 Cor. 11:3 and Rev. 1:1 shouldn't exist. And yet, there they are, teaching very plainly that Christ has a boss. Trintarian logic simply doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the Bible and common sense.

 

[Cooper]

Paul said that the Father is superior to Christ in authority:

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Cor. 11:3

Paul says that Christ is not, nor has He ever been, His Father's equal. We see this again in Rev. 1:1 where John establishes the fact that the Father is the sole source of prophecy and that it had to be relayed to Christ for Him to even know about it. If the trinity doctrine is true, Paul and John's words in 1 Cor. 11:3 and Rev. 1:1 shouldn't exist. And yet, there they are, teaching very plainly that Christ has a boss. Trintarian logic simply doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the Bible and common sense.

We know. That is because God humbled himself to be like us, when he came among us. So we have God in heaven, God on earth, this is spoken of in the Bible as the Godhead by the way and not the Trinity as you all seem to think, and then of course we have the Holy Spirit making One omnipresent God in heaven, on earth, and in our heart, in much the same way we are body, soul and spirit, but are one person.
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[Scott Downey]

Novatian: De trinitate
Written by Novation in the mid 3rd century, 250 AD, in defense of the Trinity, who was martyred by Emperor Valerian 258AD.
You can translate from Latin in Chrome browser, to read in English. Right click and select translate.
You can see this has been discussed as long as the church has existed.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

We know. That is because God humbled himself to be like us, when he came among us. So we have God in heaven, God on earth, this is spoken of in the Bible as the Godhead by the way and not the Trinity as you all seem to think, and then of course we have the Holy Spirit making One omnipresent God in heaven, on earth, and in our heart, in much the same way we are body, soul and spirit, but are one person.
.

You are proving why trintiarianism is illogical. A human being is a soul, and the spirit is the means through which people can understand, appreciate, and acquire knowledge. In other words, the human spirit is brain power that allows us to exist as a superior life form to animals. The Holy Spirit isn't a Person any more than electricity is a human being.

I'll say it again, trintarianism simply doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the Bible and common sense. The fact that trintarians believe humans have a soul and use their belief as proof automatically shows why their belief in the trinity is illogical and not supported by scripture.

 

[Cooper]

You are proving why trintiarianism is illogical. A human being is a soul, and the spirit is the means through which people can understand, appreciate, and acquire knowledge. In other words, the human spirit is brain power that allows us to exist as a superior life form to animals. The Holy Spirit isn't a Person any more than electricity is a human being.

I'll say it again, trintarianism simply doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the Bible and common sense. The fact that trintarians believe humans have a soul and use their belief as proof automatically shows why their belief in the trinity is illogical and not supported by scripture.

I like to think of God as a person, Jesus was most certainly a person who raised the dead and stilled the sea, not something mortal man can do, and I think of the Holy Spirit as something akin to our brain activity which is invisible but can be measured. If you think believing in One God who is all powerful in heaven, on earth and in our hearts is illogical then I feel sorry for you because in your rant you just killed him off as far as you are concerned. Goodbye
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[Pierac]

I was asking what period in time was the Redeemer present with the King of Israel.
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There are multiple redeemers...Which one are you talking about?
There is one very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."

Perhaps here?
"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression (sins) ; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

God used several redeemers before He spoke in these last days through His Chosen Son!

Mat 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18 "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

So who is God's chosen one in these last days?

Peter tells you on the Day of Pentecost...

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Jesus tells you...
(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Cooper, now I have a question for you... Why does Jesus need to be commanded on what to say and speak?

 

[Cooper]

There are multiple redeemers...Which one are you talking about?
There is one very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."

Perhaps here?
"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression (sins) ; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

God used several redeemers before He spoke in these last days through His Chosen Son!

Mat 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18 "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

So who is God's chosen one in these last days?

Peter tells you on the Day of Pentecost...

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Jesus tells you...
(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Cooper, now I have a question for you... Why does Jesus need to be commanded on what to say and speak?

The Spirit within me is troubled. I need to say goodbye to you.
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[Behold]

..................................................
My replies are in brackets. The links are all to my personal studies.

So, all of your points, are based on quoting ignorant bible correctors who set themselves up as the final authority, using whatever "source" they can dig up to try to deny that Christ is God.

Well, i guess i reject all that ., and so should you, tigger 2.

 

[Behold]

Cooper, now I have a question for you... Why does Jesus need to be commanded on what to say and speak?

Where you have an issue is with the implication that you are implying....which is, that Jesus NEEDED to be commanded.
He didnt say he needed to be commanded......you did.

So, when you see the Lord talking about saying only what God said, or what The Father has for Him to say, then the correct understanding is..."i and my Father are ONE"..
So, as ONE, we speak the same..
That's how to SEE that verse, and other's like it...

Consider that Jesus, before He came here, was the WORD.....
So, when God speaks......Jesus is the WORD.

You read in Genesis that God Spoke and Creation began...>Yet, Jesus is the WORD of Creation.

Look at John 1:10. This verse shows you that Jesus made the WORLD.....>Yet Genesis said that GOD created it by WORDS....

So, when Jesus is talking about what He SAYS, that came from GOD< and Jesus is the WORD made flesh, then, its all the same Deity.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word WAS God"...
Jesus is the WORD.

 

[Scott Downey]

You are proving why trintiarianism is illogical. A human being is a soul, and the spirit is the means through which people can understand, appreciate, and acquire knowledge. In other words, the human spirit is brain power that allows us to exist as a superior life form to animals. The Holy Spirit isn't a Person any more than electricity is a human being.

I'll say it again, trintarianism simply doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the Bible and common sense. The fact that trintarians believe humans have a soul and use their belief as proof automatically shows why their belief in the trinity is illogical and not supported by scripture.

I chalk the Trinity up as one of the mysteries of the faith.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

1 Corinthians 4
New King James Version
Stewards of the Mysteries of God
1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human [a]court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

AND
1 Timothy 3:8-10
New King James Version
Qualifications of Deacons
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.

 

[Cooper]

You are proving why trintiarianism is illogical. A human being is a soul, and the spirit is the means through which people can understand, appreciate, and acquire knowledge. In other words, the human spirit is brain power that allows us to exist as a superior life form to animals. The Holy Spirit isn't a Person any more than electricity is a human being.

I'll say it again, trintarianism simply doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the Bible and common sense. The fact that trintarians believe humans have a soul and use their belief as proof automatically shows why their belief in the trinity is illogical and not supported by scripture.

The Holy Spirit is the power of God (brain power quoting Desire) that created the whole world by the Word of God (Jesus) that is everywhere with us first mentioned in the second verse of Genesis chapter 1. God is our heavenly Father and those who come to him are His Children. I am seeing three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Godhead.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Ephesians 4:29-30 KJV)
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[Behold]

The Holy Spirit is the power of God (brain power quoting Desire) that created the whole world by the Word of God (Jesus)
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Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same, exactly as "I and my Father are One".

Notice.

Jesus is the WORD........
""In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was God.""
God created all of Creation by the WORD., and Jesus is the "Word made flesh, God manifested in THE Flesh".
The word of God's power is the Holy Spirit.
""Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is the same as "the temple of the HOLY Spirit"

John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 tells us that JESUS created everything.... which takes us right back to GOD, to the WORD and to the Holy Spirit ALL being ONE regarding Deity, and ONE regarding who IS THE author of all of Creation.
How do you know that the Holy Spirit is Christ as well as God?
Because 2 Corinthians 3:17 says that "Jesus IS THAT = Spirit"..........the Holy Spirit.

So, the more you look all the parts, the more you get the revelation that ALL are ONE.

 

[Cooper]

Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same, exactly as "I and my Father are One".

Notice.

Jesus is the WORD........
""In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was God.""
God created all of Creation by the WORD., and Jesus is the "Word made flesh, God manifested in THE Flesh".
The word of God's power is the Holy Spirit.
""Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is the same as "the temple of the HOLY Spirit"

John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 tells us that JESUS created everything.... which takes us right back to GOD, to the WORD and to the Holy Spirit ALL being ONE regarding Deity, and ONE regarding who IS THE author of all of Creation.
How do you know that the Holy Spirit is Christ as well as God?
Because 2 Corinthians 3:17 says that "Jesus IS THAT = Spirit"..........the Holy Spirit.

So, the more you look all the parts, the more you get the revelation that ALL are ONE.

They are ONE. I totally agree with you. The problem comes when you quote someone else's argument in trying to explain it, and it looks like their belief is your belief. (Which it isn't.)
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[Behold]

They are ONE. I totally agree with you. The problem comes when you quote someone else's argument in trying to explain it, and it looks like their belief is your belief. (Which it isn't.)
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I quoted no one.
You are mistaken, Cooper.
Now, its quite possible that someone here quoted me....but im not going to name them.......i hope that is alright with you.....
Also..
I also dont use any commentaries.
I just use 3 sources. 2 KJV "Bible Promise" paper back books , and a Messianic Jewish Edition "Golden Verses".
I dont use a concordance or a silly "greek text".
Just the NT, but, in those three variants.

So, here is a bit more "proof" for the Deity of the Lord Yeshua

There are many variants i can use to teach the Deity of Christ.

We could try........"I AM", as God talking to Moses from the burning bush, and Christ Telling the Pharisees, "before Abraham was......I AM".

We could use...."I AM"...again here....>Jesus Speaking...>"I AM THE Resurrection and the Life"...." I AM...THE way the truth the Life".

Usually on these Rabbit Hole/Trail Threads that generally try to prove that Christ isn't God or that "the word trinity isn't found in the bible"....i just go with 9 verses.

John 1:10 .. Colossians 1:16....John 20:28... 1 Timothy 3:16.....2 Corinthians 3:17....Revelation 22:13 & Revelation 22:16,... Genesis 1:26...and John 10:30

So, if you see anyone using my POST, and all these verses as "their" proof, then just relax, as its not important that we get credit, its only important that Truth is revealed.

 

[Cooper]

I am sorry, I was talking about myself quoting the other guy.

You were exactly correct.

I should have said the problem comes when 'I' quote someone else's post. Then people think it is my belief when it is not.

By the way, I use the same scriptures as you and probably a few more. May God bless you.

Anyway, it is getting late here, so I am closing down for the night.